A living wage is impossible if we allow unlimited immigration.

[Wcross]

It is a simple supply and demand equation. You have to ask yourself why Bush and his supporters will do nothing to stop illegal immigration. They want to take advantage of cheaper labor costs. They keep telling us that these undocumented immigrants are doing jobs Americans "won't do". I believe it is a case of doing the job for a wage less than a citizen would accept. The more people willing to do a particular job the less an employer has to offer in wages in benefits.
You can't be for a living wage but against limiting immigration.

[no_hypocrisy]

1. An alternative would be to penalize employers for not paying a living

wage, to native or immigrant employees, along with payroll taxes and social security, workers comp, etc.

I maintain focus on the employers who are exploiting the workers.

[Wcross]

6. Why would congress do that?

Business's contribute to the politicians campaign, VERY few workers do. Are they going to bite the hand that feeds them? I doubt it.

[smoogatz]

40. Well, then what's their motivation for doing anything about illegal

immigration? Same hand, same handout, no? Actually, despite your mangled logic you're kind of right. The flood of undocumented workers has hurt wages in some industries--especially in meat-packing and related and the construction trades. The answer(s) are to target employers who exploit undocumented workers to enhance their bottom lines, and to work toward strengthening unions (for citizen and undocumented workers alike) in those and other vulnerable industries.

[porphyrian]

2. Just because you can't think of another way to do it doesn't make it impossible.

However, if we simply agree with you and accept defeat without trying, then we join you in making it so. I'm not joining you.

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

12. I am trying to make some attempts here:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x599071

[VP505]

3. The open border

advocates never mention these facts: The United States has a very generous LEGAL immigration policy, probably the most generous in the world: “Two million people legally admitted to the United States each year. In addition - 14 percent of those, by the way, those people given permanent residency are from Mexico. Four hundred thousand skilled foreign workers and their families receive H-1 visas each year. Nearly 900,000 other legal foreign workers are admitted on some type of employment visa. Six-hundred sixty thousand student visas are issued every year. And 455,000 people given temporary employment transfers”. Those are facts that one seldom sees mentioned in these threads.

[stirlingsliver]

4. Hassle. Hassle. Hassle

AS others have said in other threads, the current immigration process in the US is very complicated, and requires an attorney. Even with an attorney, though, the ineptitude of many in the process makes coming "legally" to the US very difficult.

And expensive.

The US government charges exhorbitant fees just to apply for "legal" entry into the US.

If you are a poor person struggling to find work in order to support your family, "legal" immigration into the US is very difficult -- if not impossible.

If you are rich and well educated, it is somewhat easier -- but still an incredible hassle.

[Ino]

14. My husband came here from England

We did not use an attorney, we did the paperwork ourselves. It cost maybe $500.

[Igel]

24. Oddly, I knew a guy--a Frenchman--who managed to do it.

He married an American woman and started the naturalization process. It took a few years, but no lawyer. Their kid--the one and only--helped prove they were, indeed, functionally married. Their biggest problem was when the INS lost some of the documentation the couple submitted.

Far from rich, neither with a degree, they survived by giving kids piano lessons.

Of course, less than a year after he was naturalized he suddenly realized all the taunts he'd gotten in school were right, he was gay, and he got a divorce.

[barb162]

64. Are you saying he got married hust to get here?

Or was it coincidental that after he got citizenship he "realized" he was gay

[NormanYorkstein]

58. that's GOOD!

It shouldn't be easy to immigrate. Citizenship and residency in the USA is extremely valuable, why should we give it away for free? If it's a hassle there are hundreds of other countries.

[Unvanguard]

28. So?

It's clearly restrictive enough that millions of people are driven to illegally cross the border - which means it's far too restrictive.

[NormanYorkstein]

59. that doesn't make any sense

Since people break the law, since following the law is too much of a hassle, we should get rid of the law?

That's what the GOP does with environmental and corruption laws. When someone breaks them, just make it legal.

[JCMach1]

5. Living wage is impossible under globalization then as well

think about that... :(

[Wcross]

10. You are correct.

Globalization can only reduce the average Americans standard of living until we reach parody with the rest of the world.

[seriousstan]

21. This whole thread is a "parody".

:evilgrin:

[Wcross]

22. My bad, should have been parity.

[earth mom]

25. Yeah it's a parody to the thugs and anyone who doesn't give a damn

about the working class. Must be nice for you to not have to worry about YOUR job or pay rate-my how much easier it is when you don't have to walk in someone else's shoes whose livelihood has been STOLEN from them. :grr:

[Greyhound]

33. Exactly so.

That is why it is necessary for us to withdraw from NAFTA, GATT, WTO, and the IMF, which incidentally will cause the collapse of those organizations. We cannot help the rest of the world by crippling ourselves. Our corporations have shown that they will never do the right thing, and a free market is the last thing they want.

[BlueEyedSon]

34. Nope... you still can't flip a burger long distance!

[bvar22]

43. That is why unrestricted immigration is necessary for the NWO

...flipping burgers for slave wages.

[snappyturtle]

7. Absolutely agree. K&R n/t

[Hamlette]

9. to say nothing of the fact our resources can't support unlimited numbers

we need to support reasonable immigration policy.

[snappyturtle]

19. Here is a link to an excellent video to support your claims!

It's thirteen minutes long but worth every minute!

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=4094926727128068265&q=number

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

8. "Give me your tired, your poor,....as long as they don't seek employment."

The Statue of Liberty should be placed in a museum and regarded as an archaic curiosity. Maybe Lou Dobbs will contribute to it. And, maybe, but I doubt it, they'll pay some "Good" (preferably white) janitor a "living wage" to dust it off every few years.

[NormanYorkstein]

60. Perhaps the inscription should be removed

After all the inscription was added later, the SoL symbolizes liberty, not immigration.

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

11. You are actually saying another thing:

"A living wage is impossible across the world."

[Wcross]

13. Are you willing to accept 3 dollars a day?

I don't know what the exact figure would be but it would be nowhere near what the average worker in the United States earns. Should we reduce our standard of living in order to raise the rest of the worlds? That would be a tough sell to the American people.

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

17. Don't forget crazy currency exchange rates.

A Chinese factory worker's salary would become almost nothing if it were brought to the US. And yet, that Chinese person can eat. He's poor, but he can eat.

When you unify things FURTHER, like in the case of the European Union, this tends to flatten out.

Now I ask: why doesn't NAFTA work like the European Union?

[bbgrunt]

46. "Should we reduce our standard?" That isn't even the question.

We were told that NAFTA would do that by raising the wages in Mexico and creating conditions for a living wage in Mexico.

Guess What!! Wages went DOWN in Mexico. As long as they (corporations and governments) can play different countries off against one another, there will be no living wage. It is all a shell game.

[personman]

86. People might start thinking about how badly they are being screwed by the upper classes...

Can't have that, so we must continue exploiting the world to maintain our privilege.

Edit:

The vast majority of us have far more in common with our mexican brothers and sisters then the powers that be, and we shouldn't let them turn us against each other.

Solidarity with all immigrant workers.


Well, do you get the feeling sometime that you’re living in an occupied country? Very often that’s a feeling I get when I wake up in the morning. I think, “I’m living in an occupied country. A small group of aliens have taken over the country and are trying to do with it what they will, you know, and really are.” I mean, they are alien to me. I mean, those people who are coming across the border from Mexico, they are not alien to me, you see. You know, Muslims who come to this country to live, they are not alien to me, you see. These demonstrations, these wonderful demonstrations that we have seen very recently on behalf of immigrant rights, say, and you’ve seen those signs saying, you know, “No human being is alien.” And I think that’s true. Except for the people in Washington, you see.

- Howard Zinn
http://www.democracynow.org/article.pl?sid=06/12/18/1326231&mode=thread&tid=25">More...


-personman

[kenny blankenship]

87. Half the people posting here don't give a shit about the American people

(surely you've had that suspicion before?)
They're too busy trying to prove that they're more liberal than you to think about it, or worse, although they won't say it out loud, they are truly willing that the poor and struggling workers of America should suffer for the failed policies and cultural crises of other countries.

Between them, and the corporate overclass who are doing all they can to outsource jobs and import illegal labor, this country barely stands a chance. To get a glimpse of the future which their reckless greed and stupidity are securing for America, watch a movie like Salaam, Bombay! There you will see how cheap human life becomes in a land with centuries of overpopulation.

[DBoon]

15. A living wage is impossible as long as Mexicans are poor

We once had a problem with ilegal Irish immigrants. No more. A booming Irish economy has draw them back, fed up with the USA's cost of living and poor health care system. Now Ireland is importing immigrants.

Ireland was once the Mexico of Europe - filled with impoverished illiterate peasants.

Massive immigration is the safety valve for massive policy and economic failures south of the border. Until these are addressed we will continue to have illegal immigration and low standards of living on both sides of the border

[msongs]

18. free birth control pills and condoms for everybody on request :-) nt

[DBoon]

49. Education and women's rights will accomplish the same ends

Educated women with the right to choose how to conduct their lives tend to have fewer children

[NormanYorkstein]

53. Mexico is run by drug gangs and organized crime

The official government cannot even keep its own prosecutors from being murdered by the criminals. The elite of Mexico protects the drugs gangs at the top levels. Then the Mexican elites demand the US allow more immigration.

MS-13 is now purposefully targeting Blacks in Los Angeles for murder, but no one seems to care for some reason.

[KittyWampus]

65. What is MS-13 & why is it targeting blacks in LA for murder?

[NormanYorkstein]

66. a) a criminal gang of many illegal immigrants b) racism

[DBoon]

70. MS-13 is a Salvadoran gang

and actually they became an international menace after the US decided to agressively deport them for crimes.

Turns out after they went back to their home country, they continued organizing and expanded their activities.

In this case, deporting them just made them stronger and better organized.

[NormanYorkstein]

71. well, no, allowing them back in

is what caused the problem for Los Angeles.

[JohnnyRingo]

16. As a union retiree, I agree that non-citizens should not take our jobs

But I would like to point out that "guest workers" have been picking fruit, cleaning houses, and washing dishes for decades.

Hard line Republicans and Minutemen haven't seemed to realize that no one complained until GW Buxh took office and the manufacturing job market evaporated.

If my grandchildren can earn an honest living, I don't care who makes the beds at the Holiday Inn.

[Unvanguard]

32. Oh, those evil non-citizens!

The audacity of them - to have been born outside of the US....

[JohnnyRingo]

75. Like my grandfather

He emigrated here in the early 20s from Poland.
He went on to become a citizen soon thereafter and raise a family on his NE Ohio farm.

You must have mistakenly assumed I held disdain for foreign born immigrants.

I don't, however, appreciate "guest workers" who make passage here for the sole purpose to seek low wage "day work" while sending the money back only to return home when they made enough to support their families for a year.

This segment of immigrant has no intention of joining citizenship and only serve society and corporate interests by keeping prices and wages down. My grandkids can't compete with these workers because they will have to maintain a home here with a higher cost of living.

Don't confuse me with Lou Dobbs though, My point was that I don't care who comes here for opportunity if we can apply a tourniquet to the job outsourcing made famous by Buxh and his dad. (NAFTA and CAFTA)

I thought it was obvious, and don't appreciate insinuations of racism.

[gulliver]

20. The country is like a big union, so of course they are busting it.

The Republican cheap labor, expensive education, corporate tax evasion, job export program is in full bloom. You might ask, "Why do they hate Americans?"

[bbgrunt]

47. I like that analogy. Very appropriate.

[NormanYorkstein]

68. exactly - so what do you call companies that hire scabs?

[UTUSN]

23. Strawmen in this thread: "unlimited immigration." "open borders." "unlimited numbers."

To begin to discuss the legitimate and very serious issue, we have to start with authentic terminology. As I've said repeatedly in Minutemen threads, there are LEGITIMATE, REAL issues in the border issue: But the whole issue is immediately deflated in sincerity when EXTRANEOUS things are injected, such as how MANY/MOST of the Minutemen supporters (beyond the officially registered members) are indisputedly racist. They COVER themselves with "national security" and "wages" and "illegality" and "crime". Each one of those things is LEGITIMATE in itself, and even the racists (like paranoics) might be correct a tiny portion of the time.

So in this thread, the strawman terms detract from the legitimate issues of labor, wages, and unions.

Before I'm flamed to a crisp (not that this will stop it), my mantra has always been: We are Democratic party members, made up of many constituent groups, each of which has its OWN, separate agenda NUMBER ONE item. For union members, NAFTA is anathema, while there are Dems along the borders who favor it for reasons of their own economy. Other Dem sub-groups have their other, own NUMBER ONE agenda items. It is only after we get down to the #s 2, 3, 4 or below agenda items that we might be on common ground: Social justice, equal treatment, humane treatment. We are not for illegality.

But the strawmen need to be dumped out before there can be an authentic discussion. I, who side with the pro-immigrant side, do not favor OPEN BORDERS, UNLIMITED NUMBERS, or "UNLIMITED IMMIGRATION."

[UTUSN]

61. Kick for the S T R A W M E N !!1 n/t

[earth mom]

26. Agree with you 100%

And also the person upthread who mentioned that there are already millions of LEGAL IMMIGRANTS in this country every year. The U.S. shouldn't have to save Mexico or the world for that matter. Not at the cost of the people who are already legally here.

[Unvanguard]

27. You're assuming static demand.

It doesn't work that way. More immigration means more consumers, and therefore more jobs.

And the US is better capable of dealing with the problem of labor exploitation than Mexico, anyway - and these workers would simply compete with workers there if they didn't come here.

[Madspirit]

35. Hey Anarchist!

I agree with every word you say.
Lee *Texan, pro-immigration, has illegal friends who spend a lot of money here and work their asses off to earn it. I see the lines of people waiting where they pick them up in the mornings for jobs. There isn't anyone but them there. No "real" Americans getting beaten out of jobs. These people truly do work jobs most Americans are too big of sissies to work*

[KittyWampus]

67. Funny, I've watched a flood of newer latino immigrants take the jobs from the last wave of latinos

Illegal or otherwise.

That's why there's a large number of men standing around on the corner waiting for jobs that never show up.

As for the younger kids from families that've been here for generations- they are just shit out of luck if they want to start a landscape/mowing/nail banging business.

And there're many towns on LI that have large numbers of latinos standing around idle day in and day out.

And the affordable housing situation has gotten worse too because of the newest influx of latinos.

It doesn't matter what the nationality- there are now too many workers and not enough jobs or houses for low-median income folk.

[AzDar]

29. Too many available workers = lowered wages. Period.

Supply and demand, don'tcha know...

[Unvanguard]

31. "Too many", yes.

But simply increasing population, through natural growth or immigration, does not imply "too many available workers."

[Greyhound]

36. Yes, when you have a virtually unlimited supply and a limited demand

this is the inevitable result. Another factor is the conflation of illegal and legal immigration, two very different issues. Your state is a prime example of what happens with unlimited illegal immigration.

[EFerrari]

30. Yes, I can. And I can also be for the United States to stop

subverting elections in Latin America so the people can seat progressive leaders who will help them build the economies they need in order to stay home where their heart is.

Don't fall for this. BushCo depends upon pitting workers against workers. Keeps us nice and distracted while they bilk us.

[bonito]

37. I've seen it first hand here in fl.

with housing construction many have lost work for cheaper labor, didn't bring the cost of housing down but the contractors subbing out the work reaped the profit. its all about greed folks, this is one area where unions make a difference, especially when politicians are for corporate profit.

[petgoat]

38. Illegal immigrants destroyed the Farm Workers' Union.

They didn't care about conditions, schools, health,
safety. They just wanted a quick buck.

Same thing today. A dollar sent home is worth $10
spent here, so the illegals are highly motivated to
live in holes in the ground, eat moldy potatoes, and
work without complaint.

The truth has been politically incorrect for a long
time, and I'm glad to see it set forth here.

[entanglement]

44. That is the ugliest post in an already ugly thread. Shame on you.

n/t

[petgoat]

55. Do you have any substantive point? Mine is "scabs are bad for labor."

You disagree?

I put a fair amount of work into the UFW. Did you?

"No se puede!"

[NormanYorkstein]

73. I doubt they do, calling names is what passes for "debate"

on the pro-illegal immigration/union busting side. Usually you get called a "racist". They are almost always well off Whites too.

UFW used to send out "scab patrols" to keep illegals from scabbing. That changed as Chavez's family realized they could make more money cashing in on their father's reputation than helping poor workers organize.

[entanglement]

79. See my reply above

n/t

[entanglement]

78. You will achieve exactly nothing by scapegoating migrant labor

Nothing. The assault on jobs, wages, working conditions, spending on health care, education, social safety nets and the rise of militarism is due solely to the capitalist elite! Reactionary, chauvinistic thinking like yours DIVIDES the working class and lets the bosses off the hook. The policy of labor organization based solely on nationality is DOOMED in this era when capital is organized globally. Playing off immigrant vs native, workers in poor countries against richer countries, black vs white and so in is the oldest trick in the bosses book (there are countless examples, in case you're interested).

As a socialist, I find attempts to pit workers of one nationality / ethnicity / immigrant status against another disgusting and immoral.

[NormanYorkstein]

81. lots of well of Whites call themselves "socialist"

and never met an illegal immigrant that didn't clean their house real well (that's sarcasm btw)

Maybe it's the "socialists" who are pitting ethnic group against ethnic group? After all a LEGAL, US Citizen Black landscaper has to compete with illegal immigrant landscapers, and Whites with graduate degrees love to pit them against each other - how else can you get your lawn mowed for $5?

[petgoat]

84. It's the capitalists who have putted legal v. illegal by giving jobs

that should go to US citizens to illegals instead.

This state of affairs could be halted in a minute if
employers could be fined for hiring illegals.

Jobs that should be going to black teenagers (not to
mention white, asian, and chicano teenagers) are
going to illegals instead. How are our kids going to
get good work habits and self-esteem if they can't get
any work?

[BlooInBloo]

85. Nah - it's the same stupid lie that southerners fell/fall for...

The company enacts anti-worker policies, and tells the stupid white worker that it's some brown-skinned guy's fault, and the stupid white worker salivates quicker than Pavlov's dog.

There's nothing for him/her to be ashamed about - it's the great white American tradition to fall for whatever rich white folks say, no matter how asinine it is.

After all: it's Confederacy Appreciation Month! I can't think of any better way to celebrate than with precisely this topic.

Kudos to company management on their union-busting. All you have to do is point to a guy with brown skin, and the workers won't even NOTICE what management does. :rofl:

[SoCalDem]

39. People with US passports would be eligible and employers

would have to pay a "legality bond" of 10K per employee (refundable upon verification of citizenship).

Those two things might make it "possible", eh?

[ulysses]

41. right, because we were on the verge of a living wage otherwise...

[NormanYorkstein]

74. we passed Living Wage in a number of cities

And now with a Dem Congress and the AFL-CIO pulling some weight, we just might get more.

[blues90]

42. Two things need to be done

First is to fine the companies who use illegal workers and second to give Mexico their damn oil money and jobs back .

This idea bush has of allowing truckers from Mexico is only going to add to the hostility .

I can see the issues from both sides . I realize immigrants are taking jobs but only because they have none and I realize american workers feel threatened , all have good reasons . What we need is new govenments and fair trade .

[ulysses]

45. globalization creates mobile capital, static labor.

A living wage is impossible under the current system regardless of immigration.

[ComerPerro]

48. then maybe we ought to stop graniting asylum and refugee status to anyone from anywhere

[Lerkfish]

50. but outsourcing is okeydokey? Let me school you about outsourcing

outsourcing is much more damaging policy than immigration.
at least immigrants spend what they make within our economy, continuing to stimulate it with money made from our consumers.
Outsourced employees spend the money our consumers spend in their own economies, effectively siphoning off residual reinvestment that normally occurs when immigrants or citizens spend their wages within our economy.

When IBM hires workers from Backharistan, not only do they pocket the larger profit margin into the CEO's pocket, but even the much smaller wages spend in Backharistan stay in Backharistan, stimulating the Backharistan economy while depleting our own.

You need to target better. Outsourcing is the real enemy.

[barb162]

62. Outsourcing and illegal immigrtration are both destroying

the jobs for American citizens. Illegal immigrants ship a lot of money back to their native countries too, most don't pay federal or state taxes here , etc.

[AboriginalAmerican]

69. outsourcing

i have to agree that outsourcing is a very dangerous practice to america. used to be that we built our own stuff, we had unions and we had manufacturing which paid good money. the mid '80's saw the dismantling of much of the aerospace industry, which had high tech jobs, and manufacturing jobs that paid a decent living wage, now those jobs have been "outsourced" to countries like china and other third world countries where labor is cheap

that is where our economic base has gone, it's gone overseas, those jobs are not here anymore, illegal aliens are a problem but they are not at the root of the erosion of the american economy

[dysfunctional press]

51. we may have to change the definition of "living" then...

one of the reasons that a lot of illegals are willing to to work for less, is that they are willing to live with less- things like multiple generations and/or families under one roof, and they don't insist on a seperate car for every person of driving age in the house.

they're willing to work for less, because they're willing to live with less.

the first thing that many americans are going to have to give up is their own sense of entitlement.

[petgoat]

56. Illegals are willing to live with less because all they care about is a quick buck.

Few of them have brought their wives or kids. They're willing
to live 30-to-a-house, sleeping on the floor, because every dollar
they can send home is worth ten dollars here.

I've heard of buildings in Jersey partitioned into rooms six feet
by eight feet for illegals. We can't live like they can, because
we don't know how to find such a place.

I hung out with a bunch of lowlifers in the Bronx a few years
ago (it's a long story). When they told me they couldn't get
jobs because of the illegals, I thought they were making excuses
for themselves. Then one day I drove past the lumber yard at 6:30
a.m. There must have been 600 men out there!

When I was coming up, we did ditchdigging, mowed lawns, worked at
the car wash, washed dishes, painted fences. There isn't any work
like that for a high school student any more--it's all done by
illegals. I don't know what the kids are going to do!

[NormanYorkstein]

63. Often legal H1Bs do the same thing

Many don't want to stay here permanently, it's a way to make quick money and go back home rich. I remember one H1B telling me how he couldn't wait to get back because he missed his SERVANTS bringing him coffee every morning.

But for some reason it's more "progressive" to give jobs to rich foreigners instead of US citizens?

[Dutch]

82. So American workers should just shut up and accept impoverishment?

Nice election message, there.

No one should give up their "sense of entitlement" to a decent standard of living.

[dysfunctional press]

88. "a rising tide lifts all boats" has been a democratic mantra for years...

but the truth is- for the tide to rise in one part of the world, it has to go down in another.

multi-generational homes used to be the norm in america- and it will be again in the not-to-distant future. it doesn't have to mean impoverishment, either- nor does it mean that it wouldn't be a decent standard of living.

but some people ARE going to have to change their personal definition of "decent".

it's all part and parcel of the wonderful nafta/wto world that bill clinton helped to foist upon us.

[NormanYorkstein]

52. Yep - that's why we have so much immigration

and H1Bs, L1s, and allow people-smuggling organized crime rings to operate unhindered. It lowers wages. And if you want to make more money than exploited immigrants, you're a racist.

[Odin2005]

54. Exactly. The corporatists want to drive down wages by increasing the number of people.

The Corporatists want huge numbers of immigrants to flood into the developed countries in order to drive down wages. Without immigration the birthrates of most developed countries would be below the population replacement level (2.1 children per couple). dropping population levels would increase the demand for labor and thus increase wages, and the Corporatists can't have that. This is why I get infuriated at the so-called "multiculturalists" (in quotations because they are not really multiculturalists but postmodernist cultural relativists), they are corporatist patsies.

We need to be working on getting the 3rd World developed and thus get rid of the ultimate problem causing immigration.

[Pro2nd]

57. Both Parties Suck

Both parties have sold us out on this issue. The Democrats are pandering to the Mexicans for votes and the Republicans are pandering to their corporate masters for cheap labor. Sorry to put it in such simple terms, but it's really not any more complex than that.

[pampango]

80. That about sums it up. Of course, those of us who are more

pro-immigration would not use the "sold out" terminology, but your analysis is accurate.

Democrats do see potential electoral advantages in the future Hispanic voters, though I would add that many of us see it as a humanitarian issue (poor people looking for better lives). Immigrants to the US, and given our history there have been countless millions of them, have always created tension with the "existing Americans", but we have survived as a country and prospered. (Now is it largely Hispanic immigration, but historically the Irish, Italians, Eastern Europeans all came in large numbers with "strange" languages, religions and cultures.)

One can make the argument that "things are different now than before", but that argument has been made during every wave of immigration. Perhaps it is more true now, but it is not a new argument. One thing that is different now is that most of us are the "existing Americans", while our ancestors were the immigrants. The shoe being on the other foot gives us a different perspective. It is easier to understand the resentment of those who opposed the immigration of the Irish, Italians, and Eastern Europeans more than 100 years ago.

[ComerPerro]

72. wouldn't a minimum wage be impossible as well?

[BlooInBloo]

76. Impossible for certain demographics, perhaps - not for others.

[Swamp Rat]

77. I'd like a living wage right now!

[Dutch]

83. Well said, and quite right. n/t