Climate change is temporarily dead for three reasons.

[Joanne98]

Number one.

China isn't signing on. It's stoopid to work on climate change when nobody is making China help. They are still building a coal plant a day and we could all get our emissions down to zero and it wouldn't matter.

Number two.

We are still losing jobs and the only thing Americans want to talk about is the economy.

Number three.

Goldman Sachs is set to make a ton of money trading carbon. This puts the whole issue in question. Maybe it's just another Wall Street scheme. Someone in Washington needs to answer that question. Because if all that happens with cap and trade is more big bonuses for the banksters then we might as well tombstone it now.



And I'd like to point out something I've noticed. It seems the EU countries are the ones pushing for climate change action right now. But WHY? It's probably because Putin shut off their gas supply last winter and they want the Americans to invent their way out of the coming disaster of the EU getting colder because of dilution in the gulf stream while being dependant on Russia for fuel.

Which you can't blame them for be in a panic about but maybe they should invent something themselves. And fucking with Russia all the time via the US is a stoopid idea anyway. If they don't want to freeze this winter maybe they should tell eastern Europe to shut the fuck up. Especially the countries that had the phony "colored" revolutions.

Another thing the EU needs to know. SHUT UP ABOUT PROTECTIONISM! We have a right to use our own tax money creating jobs HERE! If they don't like that they can stuff it.

[dysfunctional press]

1. number four...

it's more about sunspots than human activity.

[imdjh]

3. Oh my

popcorn smilie

[Joanne98]

5. Sunspots are a temporary problem. I'm not saying that I don't believe climate change is real.

I'm just saying that it is on the back burner for now.

[Winterblues]

11. Explain to me how sunspots create carbon dioxide in our atmosphere?

:shrug: Using core samples from the ice of Antartica, there has been no time in over a hundred thousand years when carbon dioxide levels have been as high as they currently are.

[Joanne98]

15. There hasn't been any sunspots. That makes it cooler than usual.

[Winterblues]

23. Exactly.....

:shrug:

[Umbral]

16. But you still can't 'unrecommend' a response?

[Mojorabbit]

25. I just read a whole paper debunking sunspots

as the cause. I am on my way out but will look for it later.

[ArbustoBuster]

40. You've been misinformed.

Sunspots are not the cause of global climate change.

Sunspots are magnetic disturbances that appear as cooler, dark patches on the sun's surface. The number of spots cycles over time, reaching a peak every 11 years.

The spots' impact on the sun's total energy output is easy to see.

"As it turns out, most of the sun's power output is in the visible range—what we see as brightness," said Henk Spruit, study co-author from the Max Planck Institute for Astrophysics in Garching, Germany.

"The sun's brightness varies only because of the blemishes that are also visible directly on pictures: the dark patches called sunspots and the minute bright points called faculae. In terms of brightness changes, in large part, what you see is what you get."

But sunspot-driven changes to the sun's power are simply too small to account for the climatic changes observed in historical data from the 17th century to the present, research suggests.

The difference in brightness between the high point of a sunspot cycle and its low point is less than 0.1 percent of the sun's total output.

"If you run that back in time to the 17th century using sunspot records, you'll find that this amplitude variance is negligible for climate," Foukal said.

[optimal-tomato]

50. Not right at all.

The Sun cycles every 11 years, with periods of greater and less activity. During periods of high activity, the surface of the earth receives about a tenth of a percent more energy from the sun, and the temperature rises slighty. We are currently at the lowest point of activity in the cycle and will soon be gaining more activity.

Heat averages and CO2 have both been rising steadily, so they may be connected. Sun activity is relatively stable within that 11 year cycle. Nice try, but your science is bad.

[imdjh]

2. The scale of China (and Goldman Sachs) is mind boggling.

[Chemisse]

4. Oh. I was hoping you meant that all the climate change had come to a screeching halt.

[Joanne98]

6. Only as a political issue and I hate to see Obama wasting his political capital.

On an issue that's not going anywhere right now. I really wish he's stop listening to the Europeans. They're screwing things up for us.

[niceypoo]

7. The GOP is a suicide cult

Where money has replaced jesus christ as the object of worship.

The GOP are basically willing to exterminate humanity for money, this is the main problem.

[Lorien]

9. A suicide AND homicide cult; they'll take us all down with their greed and

thoughtlessness. The truly sick part is that going green SAVES MONEY and can CREATE JOBS, but it's an idealogical fight that the GOP wants. They don't want to acknowledge the truth and they don't want to make changes to what they see as a perfect system because that would mean acknowledging that "the liberals" were right about something. They would rather destroy all of "God's creation" before doing that.

[The2ndWheel]

8. We can't stop climate change by changing the climate

Even if we could do whatever by whatever % by the magical year of 2050, that would still be changing the climate, just changing it to fit our needs, which is what we did to get to where we are now anyway. We can't escape.

Plus, we altered our environments when we hunted with sharp sticks. It doesn't matter what energy source we use, if we plan on more people having greater access to greater amounts of cheap energy, we're going to increase the impact we have on the planet, and end up with different problems. We really can't escape physical reality.

[Lorien]

10. Um, we can and do have an ENORMOUS impact on our climate

educate yourself about the kind of things that we CAN achieve if we apply ourselves, and their impact: http://www.ted.com/talks/willie_smits_restores_a_rainforest.html

[Joanne98]

17. Even if that's true we still need an energy program. I think we should

take another look at Telsa. His plan for providing free wireless electricity with Telsa coils is interesting.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tesla_coil

[scarletwoman]

12. Frankly, I think it's too late to do much about it anyway. I still think we should definitely

be pushing for cleaner energy, more efficiency, less profligate consumerism and the waste of resources that it entails. I'd like us to push for better stewardship of our planet in all kinds of ways.

But we're not going to be able to reverse the thawing of the Arctic and the melting glaciers and the changing global weather patterns -- these forces have been set in motion and there's nothing humans can really do about it now.

sw

[Karenina]

13. Hell, they can't even AGREE on the pressing need to do so...

:shrug:

[scarletwoman]

34. I suspect the Global banksters and financial elite have no problem with a possible

global human die-off as long as they can maintain their wealth and power.

[Karenina]

35. They've already built their bunkers and helicopter pads.

Wonder what's happened with Cheney's construction site in MD iirc... ;-)

[Joanne98]

18. Telsa coils..........

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tesla_coil

[scarletwoman]

36. I don't have enough understanding of electricity to see how Tesla coils could be deployed

to generate energy over a grid.

It would be interesting to know if anyone is working on such a thing.

[glitch]

28. All we can do is attempt to mitigate the disaster.

Perhaps there will a lot of bright ideas to help us do so, hopefully without initiating some kind of ice-nine catastrophe. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ice-nine

[scarletwoman]

32. I agree with that. One thing we really need to watch is the supply of fresh water.

There are bad times coming.

Thanks for the ice-nine reference, really took me back to my old science fiction reading days. :)

[glitch]

39. Sometimes I think there are two types of people in the world, those who have read Kurt Vonnegut

and those who have read Ayn Rand. :hi:

[Common Sense Party]

44. What about those who have read both?

I find both to be humorous--in completely different ways, of course.

[glitch]

45. That would be me too. ;)

It was my spinoff of the old joke, there are two types of people in the world, those who separate people into two types and those that don't. I was just going to say those that have read Vonnegut and those that haven't, but then I thought it would be funnier to just say Ayn Rand.
I don't think it landed. Oh well, it happens. :hi:

[alc]

14. 3 (Goldman Sachs) is what scares me most

I work for a pretty big company and we are going to need to hire people
1) Engineers - Determine how many credits we need to purchase this year then monitor
2) Lawyers - make sure engineers' efforts are documented correctly
4) More Engineers - predict carbon needs next year
5) Accountants - determine if we should wait until next year or buy carbon futures now based on engineers' predictions (from Goldman Sachs or other broker).
6) More accounts - sell back credits if we have too many this year. Determine if we are better off cutting production if selling back is a better deal than keeping the credits and making product
7) Carbon traders - buy/sell the credits for this year and futures for next year

It's a lot of potential new jobs, but the new jobs will be offset with loss of other jobs and/or higher cost products. If we do all of these well, we can potentially make a profit off of credits (buy low/sell high). But if we profit, someone else lost and our profit may be by reducing production/jobs.

[Joanne98]

19. Wow. This has 8 unrecs.

[rucky]

43. That sounds about right.

There's a few troll types who'll hone in on anything important.

[muriel_volestrangler]

51. Well, if you're going to blame China, the EU and Russia

for the world's climate problems, and then claim that the EU only started worrying about global warming last winter, and that eastern Europe should 'shut the fuck up', and that Europe is incapable of doing anything and is waiting for the massive brains of the USA to come and save the world,

then maybe you're trying to alienate most of the world, and people may think that such an OP isn't that useful after all.

[earth mom]

20. Sorry, but Americans want to do their part. It's Obama & Congress who are doing little to change

a damn thing.

I don't know about you, but I came to DU to figure how I can do my part to CHANGE things.

Not to give in when the going gets rough.

One of the first things someone posted to me when I first came to DU was:

NEVER GIVE UP!

And I believe that with all my heart.


I have no doubt that if Gore had continued to run for prez in '08, he would have been elected president and we would have seen sweeping changes.

But obviously Obama & his people promised Gore that all kinds of green jobs would be created if he would only step away so there could be a "historic" presidential race.

So Gore backed off and instead all we get is more corporate status quo a$$ ki$$ing from Obama & Congress.

I'm sure Gore is pissed as hell at Obama & Congress at this point.

And well he should be and so should we!



The U.S. SHOULD make sweeping changes whether or not China does a damn thing.

Now it's up to all of us to light a fire under Obama and Congress's a$$es!!!

Instead of being wimpy ass naysayers and defeatists!!!

Hell, with the kind of attitude I see on this thread, there would have be no one willing to fight for independence back in 1776!!!


NEVER GIVE UP!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Joanne98]

21. I didn't say give up. I said it's on the back burner for now.

Timing is everything.

[Joe Fields]

22. first of all, I can't believe anyone would unrecommend this thread.

You get right to the heart of the matter. I was going to write a similar thread. Your points are spot on and they illustrate how dead of an issue the environment is among the 20 or so industrialized nations, thanks to the Bush global recession. At the most critical time ever in our history, when we MUST have responsible, far reaching, long term policies globally regarding carbon output and man made climate change, at a time when a majority of leading scientists worldwide say that no matter what we do, it's too late to reverse the damage or the cycle, we have world leaders allowing the economies of their respective countries to shape their policies, while turning a blind eye to this issue.

The issue will not go away. It cannot be ignored, and it WILL have to be dealt with, but this time it will be like trying to close the lid on Pandora's box. It WILL UNDOUBTEDLY be too late.

[scarletwoman]

26. I can't believe it either. But thanks to this new feature, hordes of bullies are going to be able

to pull down any thread that isn't hive-mind approved.

sw

[misanthrope]

29. Ironic, eh?...

...Considering our economic fixation and myopia is a chief contributor to climate change.

[progressoid]

24. Carbon offset is like a bandaid for a gushing femoral artery wound.

Solves nothing.

[misanthrope]

27. Doesn't matter at this point...

...because the wheels are in motion already. I'm just glad my life expectancy has me out of here in the next few decades because I don't think I want to live through what's coming by mid-century.

Plague, drought, famine and war will be the end result of our overpopulation and cavalier ecological degradation. I know this sounds cold, but if you've had kids, you haven't done them, or anyone else, any favors. The chickens are coming home to roost.

[glitch]

30. I don't think we have until mid-century. These feedback loops tend to accelerate. nt

[misanthrope]

46. That's why I said "BY mid-century"...

...If you've never been to New Orleans, you best go now. A great deal of the Gulf Coast is going to become uninhabitable.

Increased frequency and strength of tropical storms in hotter and longer summers plus rising coastlines will wreak havoc. The increase in mosquito population and interruption of infrastructure and utilities means no air conditioning, which eventually translates to the malaria and yellow fever outbreaks that were common not too terribly long ago. Tampa, Pensacola, Mobile, Biloxi, New Orleans, Galveston, none will be unchanged.

[glitch]

55. I don't even think we have until 2025. Like you I think we're already feeling the effects now

and those effects will get more drastic every year. IMO major disruptions to food and water by 2015. They're already happening now in the world and the US won't be immune.

[cabluedem]

49. Amen to that from a fellow misanthrope. Overpopulation is and has been a major factor in the dest...

..destruction of this planet. The non-misanthropes can't ever seem to get past their hormones and see that for the truth it is. Almost 7 billion humans live on Earth right now compared to about 1.3 billion in 1900. Wake up people: There are too many of us to sustain.

[yodoobo]

31. Global warming doesn't care about our priorties.

It will continue its march onward while we sitting around talking about economics.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

33. Also, a lot of Americans think that they'd never survive in a reduced-carbon world

because their whole identity is wrapped up in their Stuff, especially their motorized Stuff.

[scarletwoman]

38. Yup. The American way of life is "non-negotiable".

This is not going to end well...

[Holly_Hobby]

37. K&R n/t

[zorahopkins]

41. Climate Change Is NOT Dead

Climate change most certainly is NOT dead!!

Climate change is happening all around us!

The icecaps ARE melting!

[and-justice-for-all]

42. links...nt

[Wednesdays]

47. K&R

:kick:

[HughMoran]

48. 4) we had the coldest June in 100 years

WTF - it's been colder than heck up here this summer

[muriel_volestrangler]

53. Globally, May was the 3rd hottest on record

http://data.giss.nasa.gov/gistemp/tabledata/GLB.Ts.txt

May 2009 anomaly: +.75 degrees C, only beaten by +.76 (2007), +.78 (1998)

June figures aren't available there yet.

[HughMoran]

54. I know our issues are related to a "trough" that has caused a LOT of cloudiness

A friend in England says it's especially hot there and other areas seem as hot as ever - we're just having "one of those years". Actually, it's been colder than normal for the past 3 years up here in the Northeast :(

[Ken Burch]

52. Shouldn't that be "Climate Change ACTION is temporarily dead"?

I'm fairly sure that Climate Change ITSELF is going along just fine.

(I realize you may not have meant it the way it sounded, but it was sort of like the furniture store ads we have here in Alaska where the caption about the store's charitable contributions reads "We Support Cystic Fibrosis".)

[OneBlueSky]

56. you beat me to it . . . climate change is alive and well . . .

and living in the Arctic, the Antarctic, Greenland, Canada, Europe, Africa, South America, Asia, and the good ole U.S. of A. . .

if anything's dead, it's the commitment to DO something about climate change . . . but then again that was never really there to begin with, now was it? . . . :shrug:

[rickford66]

57. Dead until....

Climate change is dead until the Earth warms up to 33 degrees F.

[karynnj]

58. The first point is not necessarily true - your first two points on Inhofe talking points

China has committed $200 billion to clean energy - compared to our $80 billion. China also has better CAFE standards than we do and they are demolishing their worst coal plants to replace them with cleaner technology.

As to jobs, doing this will create jobs, not take them away. We need to be the country developing and selling the new products.

Here is a link to a series of Senate speeches that deal with these charges from Inhofe. ( http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=132&topic_id=8498168 )

First, Boxer shows that CA, on its own, kept their energy use down for the last 20 years - even as their economy increased. Kerry then spoke of what China is doing and is willing to do.

Cap and trade worked very well for acid rain - it cut emissions faster and for less cost than anyone thought possible.

Frankly, I would rather be on the side with Boxer and Kerry.