If you smoke , if this and if that . I am so tired of it all .

[blues90]

I don;t have a problem not smoking where it is not permitted however this has gone a bit too damn far , I am trying to quit but it is not for anyone elses benefit and I don;t like to be forced or criminalized to quit , I simply can't afford it anymore .

But this is a form of censorship . So then to be fair in all respects don;t be over weight , keep your children out of the movie theaters , get the hell out of the way with your damn cell phone , don't bring your religion into the work place , just because you feel the scent of the century smell great , not everyone agrees . Don't chew with your mouth open , get your damn money out before you enter checkout lines .

Don't pull up in front of a friends house and blow your horn as an arrival warning . Keep your dog quiet .

There are so many things people are ignorent of until it is they who become the focus of the masses .

I am still trying to figure out how second hand smoke affects anyone outdoors . I have been down wind of people on a windy day and there is no way in hell they can smell or breath the smoke but yet they see the cig and go nuts waving their arms as to fan the smoke away , idiots .

I don;t like those leaf blowers and yet I have to endure this filth so people can have a few hours of a clean sidewalk .

I need to find an island or a section of land well away from petty people .

Once everyone sees and admits their shortcomings then will be the day this country finds the peace .

[acmavm]

1. Like 'some people' say...

Life's a bitch
And then you die

[HeeBGBz]

2. Or Life's a Bitch

And sometimes she has puppies.

[Truthiness Inspector]

16. Ha ha!

Haven't heard that one before. :spray:

[liberalmike27]

62. I used to smoke

I suppose it was in the halcyon days of smoking, if you could ever call having that miserable habit good in any way. We smoked everwhere, in booths in restaurants and offices, whatever. But the best way to get over caring about this issue is to quit, completely quit.

People try to compare this to weight loss, but me being fat doesn't slowly kill other people like secondary smoke does. Sorry, it is just the truth, and neither does blowing my horn, or any of the other things you list. It smells awful, even when you smell it on someone, like an ashtray. Besides, with all the bitching about taxes these days, not drinking or smoking can save you a ton of tax money that our local, state, and federal governments are just going to waste anyway.

I just wish weight loss involved just quitting something like smoking. As bad as quitting was (third time was a charm), weight loss involves so much more effort than quitting anything else, as you can't just quit something you don't need anyway. You have to learn to eat less, and be forever hungry, as those bastard screaming fat cells never go away and are always sending signals to your head to be fed. It is like constant withdrawal.

[Threedifferentones]

75. Mike, to say losing weight is harder than quitting smoking isn't really fair.

You were able to quit smoking but are having trouble keeping the pounds off, so its true in your case. But some people continue to smoke or use other tobacco products even when they get lung cancer and ingesting nicotine becomes painful, because they are so addicted. I don't smoke cigs, so I'm not sure how hard it would be to quit for me. But I am 5'10 and have to eat alot just to stay near 150 pounds; in fact I'm so skinny that I work out and eat to gain weight. For me, losing weight is the easiest thing in the world, I just eat only when I am hungry without making myself overly full and the pounds start coming off. So, I have no doubt that quitting an addictive drug would be harder for me than losing weight.

And on that note, I have alot of sympathy for smokers. Yeah, cig smoke smells awful and is generally offensive, not to mention the fact that its terrible for you. But, as you probably know, to an addict a drug can feel as necessary as food. So, while I am glad smoking is usually not allowed in doors, banning it outside as well seems unfair to those smokers whose vulnerability to physical addiction is high. Yeah, they should quit, but how would you like it if you had to walk miles to find a place to eat, and needed to eat every 2 hours or so? How would you feel about the issue if you had as hard a time quitting smoking as you do staying trim?

[cgrindley]

119. Quitting smoking is way easier than losing weight

at least for me. I was thin. Then I quit smoking. Now, I'm not so thin.

[Clark2008]

118. But your being fat over taxes the health care industry, which

we all pay for in the form of defaulted payment for ER and doctor's office visits. There are a lot more poor overweight people than rich ones - mainly because they can only afford that fattening food and then can't afford the healthcare associated with an overtaxed heart and lungs.

Which is another reason to demand single-payer national healthcare. It's cheaper than paying for everyone elses's defaulted payment for ER visits.

[John Q. Citizen]

21. Or Life's a beach and then you surf!

[Bjorn Against]

3. Who is proposing criminalizing smoking?

No one is forcing you to quit, they are just saying you can't do it in public places because second hand smoke has been scientifically proven to pose a health risk to others.

[blues90]

9. There are areas in southern calif where smoking outdoors is against the law

[Toots]

33. Isn't outdoors a public place?

:shrug: You insist upon spewing your filth in public and want us to agree with you it is okay....I think not..

[joshcryer]

61. OUTDOORS?

OUTDOORS? HELLO? It's OUTSIDE. You know. Where AIR is. With WIND. WTF.

WTF.

WHAT!!

[Bandit]

102. What if I dumped pollutant with over a hundred carcinogens in the ocean

It's the ocean for Christ's sake...Who cares if the fishes object...We demand the right to pollute in public because it is outdoors...Brilliant now we drink beer...

[joshcryer]

104. The scales we're talking about here wouldn't affect the ocean.

It's like saying you're upset that I spit on the ground.

What you're failing to understand here is the magnitude of the complaint. You're complaining about an infinitesimal 'pollutant' on the scheme of things.

Next thing you'll be complaining to lightning when it strikes and burns down a whole forest.

Or wanting to cap the volcanos when they erupt.

[Bandit]

131. You don't seem to understand that we live in a confined environment

If you keep spitting in a bottle it will eventually be filled up. Where do you think the carcinogens go? Do you think they just disappear? Go into outer space somewhere? Humans are dumping billions of tons of pollutants into the atmosphere every year and it has nowhere to go. It does not escape into outer space and it just builds and builds. I suppose you feel the same way when you flick your butt out your window, don't you? I believe the Earth can do better..

[Heathen57]

10. They already have

in some places. Boulder CO at one time wouldn't allow you to smoke in public anywhere even to the point of ticketing you for smoking in your car.

One of the local hospitals banned smoking anywhere on their property, including ticketing people who were smoking in their cars when they pulled in. They forced everyone (including patients) to go to a park across the street from the hospital until the people on the other side of the park saw them and complained that they could smell the smoke 2 blocks away.

The State of CO recently banned smoking in any business in the state (except for Casinos - shows who has the power). Small bars are reporting a loss of up to 40% of their business. These same bars are now taking up collections for the tickets the customers get for smoking and letting patrons light up if they wish.

I have seen the non-smokers complain when a smoker is a half block down an alley lighting up. Like religious zealots, they will not be happy until everyone "sees the light" and instantly quits.

Yeah it won't be long until it is illegal. Then the next thing will be to force you to eat only what is good for you, eliminating certain kinds of oils, butter, red meat, eggs, and the list will go on and on.

[dogday]

17. Yes, it is a slippery slope and we have already

had our asses greased starting with "smoker's rights".

[Maru Kitteh]

78. Good for Boulder and kudos to the hospital for upholding the principles

of healthcare.

Your addiction shouldn't be anyone else's hazard or even annoyance. If your life is taking too long at least have the decency to poison yourself in private.

[John Q. Citizen]

23. So has car exhaust, but I don't see anyone criminalizing driving. And most

driving is done in public places.

And there are a lot more drivers than smokers.

Refining oil into gasoline is highly toxic, check out Odessa Texas. They should force those refineries to close and move somewhere there are no people around for miles. We won't need it with people only driving their cars on private property.

[Doremus]

69. And at home, the "I'm allergic to cigarette smoke" crowd sits in front of their fireplaces

... inhaling all of the same chemicals in cigarettes, but in mega-doses.

I love the smell of a fire in the fireplace, don't you honey?

It is to laugh.

[ElsewheresDaughter]

55. so does automobile exhaust....everytime you drive lbs of the exact same chemicals are released from

from your tail pipe.....while only a teen-ie tiny trace amount comes from an entire cartoon of cigs.....so when these idiots start walking everywhere they go then they can bitch about outdoor smoking....just saying

[SammyWinstonJack]

4. Or move to France, they don't seem to have a problem with smoking there.

:evilgrin: Seriously though, I hear ya about neighbors. I just bought a chiminea and some pinion wood to burn in it. First night I built a fire, my neighbors behind me were outside complaining abut the smoke. And yet they don't have a problem with their smoker bbq that they fire up on the weekends, sometimes for hours while they smoke a brisket. It doesn't bother me, but if it did, I doubt they would stop.

I need to find an island or section of land well away from petty people. Don't we all!

[Withywindle]

128. Funny thing about France...

Lots of bike riding and walking and small scooter riding going on there. (Most of Europe, really). Cities have really good public transit; small towns are designed to be easily walkable. Not a lot of sprawl except around Paris. (Most of the people I met living in Paris proper didn't own cars and felt no need to.)

The people smoke like chimneys, but the air is still cleaner.

Funny that.

:smoke:

[lligrd]

5. Agreed - It Is Time We Learned To Tolerate Each Other Again

and quit bitching over every little annoyance. Besides, there are real, life threatening issues to be concerned about like the thieves and killers running our country and the planets extinction.

[Vexatious Ape]

6. I'm with you on this.

I'd like to wrap a leaf blower around my neighbor's neck. But I refrain.

[Swamp Rat]

8. I HATE LEAF BLOWERS!!!!!!!

They make a LOT of noise and are used to blow one person's shit onto another's property. :grr:

[blues90]

12. That's wnat they do here .

They come along and blow all the crap from the walkway at the building I live on thursday and on friday the same blower blows it all back here again .

I can't list all the things that I know are sitting on the ground that are stired up into the air , dried everything that the strongest wind would never touch . Not to mention the noise and teo cycle gas engines blowing out clouds of blue smoke . These blown dust clouds may even include tossed cigar butts that look like an old section of wet rope and cig butts along with all the finest pet droppings ever seen by man .

[Jonathan50]

42. There is your reason for banning smoking outdoors.

The cigar and cigarette butts thrown all over the ground.

Anywhere smokers congregate you find thousands of butts laying around.

When I was in the Corps, a significant portion of a private's time was spent policing cigarette butts that had been thoughtlessly thrown on the ground by smokers.

[walldude]

103. Not only that but they do it at 7 in the damn morning

some of us are night owls, and I need my beauty sleep ;)

[NormanYorkstein]

7. Everytime you buys cigs you give money to the GOP

[Heathen57]

11. When the tax went up on smokes

in this state ($.60 per pack)many people started to order online from the reservations where there is no tax.

The legislature tried to ban buying cigs online, or across state lines because they saw they were losing money.

[NormanYorkstein]

15. the GOP gets the tobacco company profits, the Dems get the taxes

It's Dem controlled states that have passed the high cigarette taxes, and they have little incentive to reduce smoking now with all that money coming in.

[TahitiNut]

26. Wrong. Liggett is 'blue.'

Repeating a falsehood does not make it true. :shrug:

[NormanYorkstein]

110. really? Is that the only one?

Never heard ot them.

[TahitiNut]

121. Read ...

http://www.buyblue.org/directory/72

[Bassic]

106. Every time you buy just about anything,

you give money to the GOP.

[stirlingsliver]

13. Also, While You Are Waiting In Line

Also, while you are waiting in line (while the checker is ringing up YOUR groceries) --

Get out YOUR check book, and fill out the date AND the name of the store.

[NC_Nurse]

14. I often start to feel like moving to a deserted island myself.

It'd probably get lonely though. ;-)

I feel sorry for smokers. It's such a nasty habit and sucks the life out of you and on top of that makes you a pariah in public.

It's good that you are trying to quit, cause it's only gonna get worse. Smoking does cause a lot of public health issues and it will be chased from all public places
eventually. Might as well quit now instead of fighting it.

[trumad]

18. Yeah --- what ever....

[frogcycle]

19. well, fwiw

second hand smoke outdoors can be damned annoying. so, of course, can auto exhaust. and burning leaves

I enjoy walking, biking, used to run, and when you're sucking in air and get a snootful of pollutant, it is more than a little annoying. I'm allrgic to tobacco smoke. Walking down the sidewalk and suddenly encountering a cloud of cigarette smoke - sometimes from someone thirty paces ahead - can cause a coughing fit that lasts 5-10 minutes. I used to ride a motorcycle - if I was behind a car with a smoker I could tell it. Smokers just don't realize how strong the impact can be.

[NanceGreggs]

20. Run that by me again, please ...

You would ride a motorcycle and, in the midst of all of the car/truck/bus exhaust, you could discern the smell of a cigarette?

[Codeine]

24. I can.

I usually keep the windows on my car up, because if somebody is stopped at a light within a few car's distance of me I can smell the shit. Utterly fucking vile.

At least the car exhaust is a function of transportation. The cigarette smoke is just a by-product of stupidity and abject weakness.

[NanceGreggs]

25. Amidst all of the pollution ...

... from cars, trucks, buses, SUVs, not to mention the local industrial crap being spewed into the air on a 24-7 basis, YOU can isolate the smell of a cigarette, car-lengths away.

"At least the car exhaust is a function of transportation."

At least the pollution caused by corporations is a function of making money at the expense of everyone's health.

Ah, I guess we can all breathe easier now.

P.S. With that incredible sense of smell of yours, you might want to volunteer your services to a government agency -- I'm sure they've never come across a talent like that. Why, it's downright unbelievable!!!

[femmedem]

28. Some people, including myself, are indeed extremely sensitive to tobacco smoke.

Mr. Femmedem smokes. He smokes outside, never in the house. And yet, I can tell from three rooms away if he's just had a cigarette-even without visual cues. My sinuses start swelling.

Maybe it's genetic. My sister gets an almost instant, puking migraine when she walks by someone smoking outside.

I'm generally a big fan of your rants. But this one was undeserved.

[dogday]

31. Some people are indeed extremely sensitive

period....

The rant was right on... It is so unbelievable, that in the mist of all this outdoor pollution, the only thing you nose knows is cigarette smoke?

That is extremely sensitive indeed!! :sarcasm:

[renie408]

40. What part of 'second hand smoke is a known cause of cancer' don't you people understand?

http://www.lungusa.org/site/pp.asp?c=dvLUK9O0E&b=35422

[dogday]

43. What part of outdoors don't you understand

we are talking about outdoors... What does that study say about outside, not inside, outside?

[Puglover]

46. Why Dogday

what do facts have to do with the EVILS of cigarette smoke? :scared:

I thank the good lord that when I quit smoking 10 years ago I didn't morph into a self absorbed prig like some of the people on this board. :eyes:

[renie408]

50. Ok...let me get this straight. Understanding that second hand smoke at any level is unsafe...

makes me a self-absorbed prig??

So what does that make the person who doggedly sticks to their right to pursue a self-indulgent habit that is dangerous to others?

[dogday]

54. Let's see if I can explain it this way

I don't drink.. I don't like to drink, I don't like to be around anyone who is drunk. Drinking causes liver disease, high blood pressure and kills many. It does kill... Drunk drivers kill innocent people on the highway... Drinking causes so many problems in people's relationships... Drinking is also addictive, and can absolutely ruin your life... Oh and I don't like the way someone smells who has been drinking.


Do I think alcohol should be made illegal? No, it should not... It is everyone's right to drink regardless if I like it or not.. That simple....

The word of the day is tolerance my friend, and to not go overboard with your dislike of something to the point of wanting it removed from everyone...

If you cannot do that, then there is evidence of being self-absorbed, yes...

[renie408]

60. You don't support the right to drink and drive because it may kill an innocent person.

I am not advocating making smoking illegal. I advocate making smoking in public illegal. It might kill an innocent person. Cigarette smoke lingers even in an outdoor area for a fairly long time. There is NO safe level of exposure. Lung Cancer is the number one cause of cancer deaths for both men and women. When I add these things together, I get "Ban public smoking...period.".

[dogday]

You might as well be advocating it

And you sure as hell sound like your are... Really outdoors.... That is ridiculous and unreasonable indeed...

[renie408]

67. Why, EXACTLY, is it 'unreasonable'? Because it infringes on your habit?

This argument might also be a result of where we live, respectively. I live in upstate SC, literally on the NC state line. We do not even have a total ban on smoking indoors here. I *think* it is at the discretion of the establishment. Every time we go out, we are confronted with groups of smokers standing around outside stores or restaurants and sometimes inside, too. Whether you want to believe it or not, even one person smoking in an outdoor public area creates enough smoke that it is noticeable. Get two or three together and without a stiff wind, they create a pretty big cloud. And no matter how much you don't like it, that is dangerous to the people inhaling that smoke. Period. You have no leg to stand on other than your indignation. Stop. You aren't helping your argument. You would be better making a run for it like the other person did.

[dogday]

74. Upstate South Carolina

I used to live in Greenville for 10 years, my people come from there...

Look, outdoors is outdoors..

People were told no more smoking indoors, go outdoors and they have complied..

Now, they can't even smoke outdoors because that is not good enough anymore... Give me a break

When the smoking studies include complete outdoor exposure facts, then I will reconsider..

[renie408]

77. What the studies say is that NO level of exposure is safe.

I am sorry, I just cannot see what there is to argue about with that. If you are sitting near someone outside and smoking, then that person near you is being affected by your habit. Why do you find that so outrageous? Doesn't it make sense that if someone can smell your smoke, they are being affected by it? Or are you just stuck to your position and refuse to budge or acknowledge any logical point made to you? I am sorry if that is not the case, but that is how it sounds to me.

[dogday]

79. I could ask you the same thing

Exposure outside to pollutants and exhaust is way worse than cigs...
Try not to sit around a smoker would be what I would advise.. Just move... If I am out in public and someone is rank, I don't hang around and keep smelling them, I move somewhere else... What is that problem with that?

[renie408]

82. So it is OK for you to do something that might endanger me and it is on me to

move or to avoid you. Not for you to have some control over your habit and only indulge in it in private.

Interesting viewpoint.

[dogday]

86. Well I have just as much right to be there

If I am there first, I would say yes move... If you were there first, I would understand if you asked me to move... See how it works... You don't have to ban it, you just have to use manners and be civil.. Most people can understand how you feel and move....

You know you live on the border of cig central... NC is great for getting cigs cheap.... I remember there are many smokers in SC... They are good people, they will work with you if you are worried about exposure I am sure, but banning is not the answer....

[renie408]

88. No shit.

That's why the smoking is a problem here.

I have never asked anybody else to move as long as there isn't a No Smoking sign around. We usually get up and just leave and actually, I try not to do it in any kind of a huffy way. If there is no law and no sign, they aren't doing anything technically wrong. I would vote for any kind of ban for smoking in an outdoor area. It ain't likely to happen here. I also wrote a letter to the restaurant that we especially like that allows smoking in its outdoor area. I don't know if that is going to have any result or not. Other than that, all I can do is try to impress on people that their behavior is negatively effecting others. Then it is on them to handle it how they will.

And, BTW, I do not support other kinds of pollution and cannot figure out why you keep bringing that up.

[dogday]

90. Because you are breathing pollution every minute

you are outside but don't acknowledge it... I can almost understand your plight... They smoke heavy where you live.. But again, it is best to try to work it out and seek out places you know don't authorize any smoking whatsoever... It is a big world, we need to try to make it work for everyone...

[renie408]

47. Well, let's see...It says...

"Secondhand smoke, also know as environmental tobacco smoke (ETS), is a mixture of the smoke given off by the burning end of a cigarette, pipe or cigar and the smoke exhaled from the lungs of smokers. It is involuntarily inhaled by nonsmokers, lingers in the air hours after cigarettes have been extinguished and can cause or exacerbate a wide range of adverse health effects, including cancer, respiratory infections, and asthma."

And it also says...

"The current Surgeon General's Report concluded that scientific evidence indicates that there is no risk-free level of exposure to second hand smoke. Short exposures to second hand smoke can cause blood platelets to become stickier, damage the lining of blood vessels, decrease coronary flow velocity reserves, and reduce heart rate variability, potentially increasing the risk of heart attack."

So, gee, I guess since it lingers in the air for hours and NO level of exposure is safe, one might draw the conclusion that smoking ANYWHERE is a danger to others.

[Puglover]

49. Yep, one could draw that conclusion.

If one didn't have common sense or reasoning skills. Yes one could! :hi:

[renie408]

52. Was "I know you are, but what am I" already taken?

And gee, since you have determined my reasoning skills are insufficient, does that mean I have to give back my Mensa card??

Do you HONESTLY think that smoking outside is a reasonable alternative given that they have determined that there is NO safe level of exposure? I get that you are welded to your position, but come on! The only way you can smoke safely outside is to go some place where you can be CERTAIN that no one is going to come in contact with your second hand smoke. If I can smell it, I am running the risk that it is hurting me.

I swear, you guys can kill yourself any way you want as long as it does not impact anybody else. But you can't drive drunk and you can't smoke in public. Even OUTSIDE in public.

[Puglover]

56. ROFL!

No really, ROFL. I guess even being a card carrying Mensa member it just blew right past you (along with the point of our disagreement) that I. DON'T. SMOKE.

And now as much as it pains me I'm going to take Kfnallys very well though out advice down thread and bid you adieu Renie!

[renie408]

59. Aww....and we were just starting to have fun. n/t?

[dogday]

51. Draw a conclusion or state a fact?

I deal in facts....

[renie408]

53. Can you deal in facts and read at the same time?

READ IT.

Look...Smoke in your house. You are only killing yourself and your immediate friends and family. Fine with me. Smoke in your car. Ditto. But you can't smoke in a public place...even outside...if someone else runs the risk of breathing that smoke. If I can smell it, I am at risk (and possibly if I can't smell it, but I am not sure about that one). Why is that so hard for smoker's to understand? And why would you WANT to run the risk of hurting somebody else?

Did you know that lung cancer is the number one cause of cancer death of both men and women? That is a FACT. Did you know that the Surgeon General's office had determined that there is NO safe level of second hand smoke exposure? That even the slightest exposure causes damage? Those are FACTS. Deal with those.

[dogday]

57. Outside is ridiculous

I will abide by inside rules where the smoke cannot escape, but outside with the wind blowing is just ridiculous and the studies have not been made for outside exposure....

Oh yes I can read, can you understand is the question?

[renie408]

65. If the wind is blowing...If noone is standing near you...If....If...

I do understand what you are saying. I disagree with you. Maybe it's because you smoke that you don't notice it. But I have never smoked (not because I am a saint, it made me sick when I tried it as a kid.) and I can smell someone smoking, even outside, from pretty damn far away. I didn't use to care if other people smoked. But since I have heard increasingly alarming statistics about the damage second hand smoke can cause and, honestly, since I have had kids, I just don't think smoking in any public area is right. Again...I don't care if you smoke. I don't want to make smoking illegal. I would like to see smoking in public areas illegal.

For example, we were sitting it an outdoor cafe a few weeks ago because the weather was so pretty. We had the kids with us and didn't get started eating before three smokers sat down directly next to us. We debated for a minute not moving, but the smoke was blowing right over us. So we moved inside. I am not sure whose right supercedes the others; their right to indulge in their habit or my family's to enjoy our meal safely. But it seems to me that someone's health trumps somebody else's addiction.

[dogday]

66. If you are worried about outdoors smoke

You should be worried about Pollution, exhaust fumes, and whatever preservatives they are putting in your food at that restaraunt... Really there are more forms of cancer than just cig smoke and outdoors is ridiculous.....

[renie408]

68. Look, you might not realize this, but you saying 'that's ridiculous' doesn't make it so.

And I am concerned about pollution (and vote and live my life accordingly) and we eat organic. Now you are using the 'Johnny jumped off the bridge, so it's OK if I do." argument.

[dogday]

71. No, I am saying that many things cause cancer

in this country.. Our environment is full of pollutants from factories and exhaust, but people are still driving and factories are still producing... Where is the outrage at these things? Why just cigs, they are a small portion of a bigger problem.....

[youthere]

96. I have a neighbor who burns all his household trash and yard waste...

Let me tell you', I'd MUCH rather smell a little tobacco smoke from a cigarette than be inhaling that vile shit on a regular basis.
I swear some of the posters on this board make me want to START smoking.

[smirkymonkey]

101. Because, apparently, it's easier to direct your anger toward an

individual or group of individuals than to take on an powerful industry. That's why people pounce on smokers.

As far as smoking outside and the dangers of second-hand smoke, one would have to be inhaling huge bucketfuls of smoke for there to be any real damage. A few wisps of cigarette smoke carried by the wind is not going to kill anybody although, as you stated, the constant industrial pollutants in the air - over time - will kill people and damage the environment.

For the record, I am not a smoker. However, I find self-righteousness a bit more annoying than encountering the occasional smoker outdoors.

[RC Quake]

113. Organic restaurant that allows smoking?

I'm surprised that they can keep a business going. Generally, people that eat organic don't partake in such a nasty habit. That's why this seems a little strange that the restaurant would even allow smoking. Strange.

[joshcryer]

76. What part of air dispersion modeling don't you understand?

Smoke quickly, very quickly in fact, disperses in an outside environment. The people saying they can smell smoke and all that foldera may in fact be able to smell it, however, that is only because they have a sensitivity to that particular smell. Car exhaust and industrial plumes put more into the atmosphere than smokers by far. The key is that you don't have the sensitivity to smell it and it is dispersed further up in the atmosphere (in the case of industrial plumes).

Sure if you get wacked in the face with smoke that's pretty rude of the smoker in question (blowing it up in the air is the best solution). However, that doesn't mean you cannot take measures to avoid smokers.

And it certainly does not mean that "smokers outside contribute to second hand smoke related deaths" because the dispersion happens so quickly that is unlikely to be the case, unless you're silly enough to stand in someones smoke and breath it in.

[renie408]

80. Please

Could you offer some links to something that would support your position on air dispersion modeling? I am seriously concerned about secondhand smoke because it is something to which my family is exposed on a fairly regular basis. This isn't a vanity argument for me. Also on the thing about smelling smoke does not mean it is affecting you. I have been led to believe that if you can smell it, you are at risk. It would seem to make sense that if you are smelling the components of the smoke, you are inhaling the toxins that go along with those components.

[joshcryer]

108. Using google is your best bet.

The basic understanding of gas dispersion in the atmosphere is very well known.

Here is a link to a website which has the formulas: http://www.air-dispersion.com/

Wikipedia also has a bit more information about it: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atmospheric_dispersion_modeling

(And yes it's related to gas plumes for the most part, that's where it started, but it has its roots in basic gas dispersion.)

The math is really convoluted but, if you are a sadist, you can do the calculations of a few dozen lungfulls of air, and figure out the equation. However, the basic idea is that is spreads very quick. Especially for low density gasses. You really have more to worry about with city fog or the car exhaust next to you.

Or even allergens in the atmosphere. Mere dust which is thrown up by foot traffic.

BTW, we breath in tons of debris in our lifetime, quite literally! The studies showing second hand smoke is harmful are all about close proximity or regular environmental exposure to the smoke in a smoker environment (this includes, of course, restaurants where smoking is allowed). I know of absolutely *no* studies that talk about "outdoor smoking." And then, given my understanding of the air dispersion models, I probably would not believe a study in the outdoor environment unless it was highly peer reviewed and taking air dispersion into account.

[joshcryer]

120. This is the sort of study I'm talking about.

Consider this: http://www.repace.com/pdf/outdoorair.pdf

It's not peer reviewed, and it certainly isn't conclusive, because it focuses on one type of "outdoor" environment. Smokers in recreational areas smoking it up. No walking studies (certianly not, as that would totally debunk anything). No park smoking (of course not because parks tend to be open areas with a lot of air movement). No smoking in cars as you're driving down the highway (LOL, he couldn't even measure it as exhaust from cars would overwhelm it). It's a joke really.

If you look at the dispersion, the models really don't pick anything up except in the case of 10 smokers blowing crap into the air. The author claims things like "you must be 20 feet from a smoker" yet his data shows that of 8 smokers only one even registered on his monitors from 20 feet away. And even then it was well under the levels mandated by EPA as pollutant, ie, something considered beyond background levels.

This is the HEIGHT of irresponsible data gathering, as his "harmful" data is placed practically within the smoker circle (within a meter, and smokers hardly ever stand that close to one another anyway, as you don't want to be standing in a cloud of smoke). At nine feet you get levels approaching "acceptable EPA" levels, for a 24 hour period (and you're only being exposed for 1 second or less, hold your breath for crying out loud, take three steps, it's all over!).

Such a paranoid and completely biased study.

Of course I'm sure that it will only harden your misguided beliefs rather than allow you to look at the issue proactively and understand what it really means.

[Jonathan50]

81. Just wondering, given your avatar I would conclude that you enjoy cannabis.

Why are you supporting the rights of cigarette smokers when most of them do not support your right to enjoy your drug of choice without legal sanctions?

Not trying to be argumentative, I'm genuinely curious.

[renie408]

83. BTW....Oddly enough, I would support the legalization of marijuana

But not in public places. What you do in the privacy of your own home is your business.

[joshcryer]

112. Your kneejerk reaction to outdoor smoking...

I think just reflects your lack of understanding of these smoker studies. Smoking is already banned in the vast majority of public places. But you want it outdoors with an inadequate understanding of how physics work. You're basically using studies of indoor environments to conclude something about outdoor environments which is totally inadequate.

[joshcryer]

111. I haven't smoked cannibas in over 10 years.

However I enjoy a cigarette every now and again. I support the legalization of cannibas because it's only rational. I actually support the legalization (and regulation) of most drugs. Call me a radical.

I understand basic etiquette, though, and I understand having someone blast you in the face with a plume of smoke, that can be terrible. But to ban it when the least one can say is "would you please not blow that in my direction?" is pretty damn petty. Dispersion models pretty much make it a complete non-issue. Within seconds, even less for some brands of cigarette (lights tend to have holes in them preventing significant lungfulls of air, thus resulting in a significantly lower density of smoke), the smoke is essentially not measurable against background pollutants (such as car exhaust or city smog).

[Democrat 4 Ever]

87. I, too, am extremely sensitive to ciggie smoke. I can smell smoke

from a car near mine at a stoplight. I can smell the residue on people's clothes I pass in the grocery aisle - they don't even have to be smoking. Smoking rooms in hotels are out, too. I even get fits of coughing, sneezing, congestion from opening a book I have checked out from the library that was formerly read by a smoker. I missed parties and going to restaurants because of cigarette smoke.

I worked in a business where my office was two doors down on both sides from smokers. I was sick all the time. I had a chronic cough that ran my co-workers, family and myself crazy. The ONLY thing I ever did when around a smoker was try to gently fan the smoke away from my face. I never said a word, just tried to handle it and yet smokers still got pissed at me because I didn't want to breath their emissions. Somehow that fanning motions was very offensive to them.

Love your rants, Nance, but please don't say a person can't smell something just because you can't. I lived with a smoker for over 30 years. Took every type of medicine, allergy shots, tests, you name it I tried it. The day he moved out and took his cigarettes with him was the last day I needed allergy shots. It took me another six months to get the smell out of the house but I other than the occasional encounter with ciggie smoke at stoplights, grocery stores, etc. I do not have any problems.

I DO NOT want to take away your rights. I just don't want you to take away mine, either.

[frogcycle]

29. to rephrase,

you just called me a liar

I don't appreciate that.

I was trying, in a civil way, to make it clear that cigarette smoke can be extremely bothersome in even very small doses

Your sarcasm about "that incredible sense of smell of yours" is rude and uncalled for.

Why would I make this up? I was as astonished as you appear to be the first time it occurred.

I also did not, as another poster did, attempt to say the other pollution was less offensive just because it had a purpose other than to satisfy someone's addiction. I was tempted, but said no, I just want to make it clear to the poster that in fact cigarette smoke CAN be much more irritating, so using all the other pollutants as "cover" to say 'what's a little more smoke" does not wash.

It seems it does not matter that I tried to stay factual - you opt to call me a liar anyway.

[Occulus]

34. And yet you said you're "allergic" to tobacco smoke

which simply isn't possible, as tobacco smoke is an irritant and not an allergen.

So, you did NOT "stay factual". You DID mischaracterize what your problem is: you just don't like tobacco smoke.

[Democrat 4 Ever]

94. You are full of hooha if you think people cannot be allergic to

cigarette smoke. I was tested, was positive and took shots twice a week in an effort to desensitize me to the allergen. Simply put, if I am not exposed to cigarette smoke I do not have a reaction. Just a brief exposure and I instantly feel my nose burning, sinus start blocking, coughing soon follows, eyes itch and burn and I have to reach for medication. My ex always said I was "pretending" just as an effort to get him to quit. He was wrong about many things.

I be willing to bet I enjoy NOT sneezing, coughing and congestion as much as you enjoy a cigarette so who's rights trumps the other? I don't care if you smoke just do it where it does not impinge upon the health and rights of others.

I know you want to discount the effects of cigarette smoke on others to relieve yourself of any responsibility for your actions but just saying it doesn't make it so.

[dogday]

39. Why don't you just admit you hate cigarettes so

much, you would make any statement against them... That you won't be happy till everyone is banned from smoking....

I could understand it when the ban was made indoors, that did make sense, and I certainly don't want to expose others to cigarette smoke... But outside is madness... These nit picky people with their ultra sensitive noses can go through everyday with no problems with exhaust and pollution, perfumes and soaps,household chemicals and the like, but if someone lights up a cigarette four cars away, outdoors, it gags them? I too am having a hard time believing this...

[frogcycle]

91. call it what you will

I cough, sneeze, and break out in a rash

If a checkout person in a store is a heavy smoker I can literally feel a burning sensation on the side of my face aimed at them.

If that's not "allergy" then it is damned irritating. I suppose cyanide gas isn't an alergen either - care to sniff some?

Go ahead in your bigoted ignorance and accuse me of intentionally lying because I "hate smokers"
I guess you get along real well with all the right wing assholes who say those of us who question the dear leader's policies "hate America"

edit: Also please note I never said it should be banned outdoors. I merely tried to be informative. The OP was contending that people are being picky when they complain outdoors. I pointed out that it can be just as irritating outdoors. Try sitting near someone who is violating the smoking ban at Wrigley Field. Try sitting in the stands when the wind is blowing in from the corrider where it is permitted. It may be an "open air" ballfield, but the noxious clouds that roll over the stands from the smokers standing in the back are more than irritating. They make enjoying the game nigh impossible. It is also irritating when the smoke from the rooftop barbecues rolls in, but it is NOT as offensive as tobacco smoke. It may be just as deadly, but it does not have the immediate and severe affect. As I said, I was just stating facts. The reaction of you three - well, I'll leave it at that.

[Toots]

Non smokers can smell cigarette smoke a long ways away

It is VERY distinctive and we can smell it on your clothes as well. It is something smokers can not grasp until they quit. You just have no idea how vile it is..

[gollygee]

45. I can smell if someone is smoking in a car a little ways away

if both of us have our windows up too. Cigarette smoke is a very strong smell to non-smokers.

Though it doesn't really bother me. I'm much more bothered by being behind a big diesel truck. Just being able to smell something isn't enough to make it illegal. Otherwise, as said in the OP, we might as well outlaw perfume. I have a cousin who is very allergic to perfume and has gagging coughing fits around it. Is that a good enough reason to make it illegal? People have the right to create some unpleasant odors.

[Th1onein]

32. Stupidity and abject weakness?

I smoke and I'm neither stupid nor weak. And I resent that comment. You know nothing of which you speak.

[Occulus]

35. Yeah, and it came from someone who later accused someone else of misbehaving

But then- the antismoke zealots always always always behave this way, on every DU smoking thread, and eventually resort to saying absolutely ridiculous things like "I'm allergic to tobacco smoke".

Idiots.

[Codeine]

124. Who did I accuse of misbehaving?

:shrug:

[Toots]

41. Yep it is a very SMART thing to do all right..

I do know of what I speak when it comes to whether smoking is a smart idea or not...Please list all the "Smart" reasons for your smoking. I would love to hear them..

[Th1onein]

129. No one said it was smart. That's not even a good question.

I started smoking when I was fourteen years old. And, yes, peer pressure was the reason. Unfortunately, this was also the time during which the tobacco companies were putting more nicotine into their cigarettes in order to hook people. And I got hooked.

I have tried innumerable times, in innumerable ways, to quit. But I have yet to be successful.

I guess you never did anything stupid when you were a teenager, right? This doesn't have anything to do with being smart, my friend. This is an addiction, and there, but for the grace of God, go you.

[Toots]

130. I used to smoke but I quit

As have literally millions of people. You could do so also if you so wished.. Continuing smoking is a decision you make and it is most definitely not a smart decision. A smart person would figure out how to stop...It is certainly not impossible..

[Puglover]

37. Some of the folks on this board

remind me of the Princess and the Pea. :rofl:

[Occulus]

44. I use threads like these to update my ignore list

Smoking threads are for when I feel I need to add asshole zealots to it. Vaccine threads are for when the ignore list is getting lean on anti-vaccine kooks. The beef threads are for the militant vegans.

Visiting these threads, and updating the ignore list accordingly, is a great way to rid thyself of kooks, zealots, and militants, and make thy DU expecience sane and rational again. I highly recommend it!

:D

[Puglover]

48. That is a two

thumbs up idea!

[renie408]

58. Yeah, it is way safer to your ego to ignore people you cannot form a reasonable argument against.

Well, the beef thing could be argued and so could the vaccine thing. But there really isn't a good argument FOR smoking, is there?? Other than the old stand by...I HAVE MAH RIGHTS!!

[joshcryer]

72. Of course there are arguments for anything.

Smokers enjoy it. Even if it's bad for them.

[renie408]

84. They are not necessarily relevant arguments, though. n/t

[joshcryer]

70. You have a point, but I shy from touching the ignore feature...

It's just a principle I have.

[mudesi]

22. Even outdoors, second hand smoke causes harm

This is an undeniable fact.

[joshcryer]

63. Then stay away from smokers.

Simple. I don't see the issue. People are so damn sensitive.

[renie408]

85. Yeah, and while you are at it, stay away from drunk drivers, too. n/t

[K8-EEE]

27. Who could afford to smoke these days?

That's a pretty expensive (and smelly!) way to kill yourself....glad you're quitting!

[michaz]

30. My neighbor quit smoking a while back and chides me about my smoking all the time.

I live in a very small city. Yet he feeds pigeons and they sit on my roof sometimes 40 at a time and crap all over it and down the side of my house. He traps and skins animals in his back and side yard and leaves their carcases there exposed for days at a time. Tell me which is worse.

[JustABozoOnThisBus]

36. Don't pull up in front of a friends house ...

... and blow your horn as an arrival warning?

Feel the need to toot your horn? Your friend doesn't have a door to pound on? Can your friend hear the horn over the sound of the sub-woofer?

I don't mind second-hand smoke too much. Loud pointless noise gets a little annoying. At least the leaf blower has a function.

On the other hand, getting rid of car horns, leaf blowers, and tobacco will probably not help this country find peace, if that's the goal. I don't know what would accomplish that goal.

[renie408]

38. My being fat and my dog barking isn't going to give YOU cancer.

You smoking might give ME or my kids cancer. And if they find out that dog barking kills people, I will have them de-barked. Same with leaf blowers.

Second hand smoke KILLS people. KILLS PEOPLE.


Grow the fuck up. I don't give a tinker's damn how you kill YOURSELF. But you are not allowed to kill me and mine with your self-indulgent habit.

http://www.lungusa.org/site/pp.asp?c=dvLUK9O0E&b=35422

[bleedingheart]

64. To be honest I think a lot of people lack basic manners

I think that since selfishness is considered a virtue by some people in society...we have seen the degradation of manners to a point that I don't know if good manners will ever return.

People don't know how to say "Thank you"
They are unaware that at 8am on Sunday morning...there are people sleeping so mowing your lawn at that time may be rude.
They don't care if they are babbling on their cell phone and bump into you...they give you the "glare"...because how dare you not be aware of the fact that they can't walk, navigate the aisle and talk on the phone at the same time.

As for smoking...I live on a corner lot and I wanna know why the smokers in my neighborhood dump their ashtray's in my yard? Or why do they throw cigarette butts into my flower beds. I know the person who normally does this likes menthols...but I may need to save all those butts to shove down his/her throat...

I try hard to be considerate of others and sometimes I may fail but not intentionally...

[Rosemary2205]

95. you said it!

I was aware the world was getting ruder, but after I ended up in the wheelchair it became incredibly obvious. I don't know if it was a natural progression over the 4 years I was mostly couped up rehabbing or if it's the addition of the wheelchair but my goodness. I've had more than one person end up in my lap because they are so busy yakking on the phone that they didn't even notice my chair or even my big honkin' power chair. -- and it's not like I bolt out right in front of them. If they can't walk and talk how do they DRIVE and talk?

[ecstatic]

73. None of what you mentioned (besides smoking) causes lung cancer

And I've had the unfortunate experience of being around people who chose to light up outdoors. Not only were their actions rude and inconsiderate (why couldn't they have chosen another spot?), but I also couldn't breathe and was forced to move myself.

[renie408]

89. This thread is about smoking. n/t

[frogcycle]

92. well, it looks like the lines are drawn

nonsmokers are all whiney babies
smokers are an oppressed minority


I say lets lock this ill-advised thread and move on

[jus_the_facts]

93. SIGH....

[ContraBass Black]

105. Seconded.

[ContraBass Black]

97. "there is no way in hell they can smell or breath the smoke"

Cigarette smoke is strong and persistent. That you can't smell it doesn't mean that no one else can. Even if no one can smell it, it can be present in concentrations high enough to cause significant allergic reactions in people with sensitive respiratory systems.

[camero]

98. Some add-ons

Turn off your lights when they're not needed so we don't have to breath the fumes from the coal fired power plant.

Drive a Hybrid so we don't have to breath the fumes from your oversized SUV with only one person in it.

Stop eating so much food so we don't have to take in the fumes from the factory that makes or stores it.

etc. etc.

[renie408]

99. The last one is a reach, but Amen to the other two. n/t

[camero]

100. Cold storage facilities use vast amounts of electricity

It goes back to the first one.

[walldude]

107. I have been staying out of smoking threads but

I get tired of being berated by the holier than thou's. Someone on this thread actually said people who smoke do it because they are weak. I'm not weak. I FUCKING LIKE TO SMOKE. I don't smoke around non-smokers and I don't do it anywhere it might bother people. I have been thanked many times by non smokers for asking people around me to put it out if I see it's bothering someone.
Let me give you an example of how smokers are discriminated against. I am a roadie. Every show morning at 7am I am on loading dock. On the dock are 7 tractor trailers, all with the engines running, and there are anywhere between 6 and 12 forklifts spewing propane into the air. What do I see on the wall? A NO SMOKING SIGN. I look around, I take a deep whiff of the diesel and propane fumes I breathe every day so you folks can be entertained at night, and I just walk away shaking my head.
You have every right not to deal with smoke indoors. You have no right to exaggerate your claims to force people not to smoke where it isn't bothering anyone else. Get off my back. If you need I have a pair of tweezers that can help you get that bug out of your ass.

[frogcycle]

127. "where it isn't bothering anyone else"

what you all just cannot comprehend is that it DOES bother us. Not that you do it - I couldn't give a lesser rat's ass if you cough up a lung and choke on it.

I don't care if you smoke on that friggin loading dock.

I ONLY object when it is in my face, and then when its outdoors and legal, all I do is move so I'm upwind.

The only point I made, and only because the OP brought it up, is that clouds of tobacco smoke OUTDOORS are still annoying. When i go for a walk in the park I find it annoying if someone is ahead of me on the trail leaving a wake of tobacco smoke hanging in the air. I don't say they can't do it, but I sure as hell have a right to be annnoyed.


When I'm riding my bike and sucking oxygen in like a damned bessemer furnace, passing a couple of smokers and sucking that shit in can leave me coughing and waterey-eyed for 10-15 minutes. I'm not proposing banning them, but I wish they would just vanish. So get off your high horse, all of you, and acknowledge that it is not people being petty - it is people choking. You get your designated place to stand like a pariah freezing your ass off in the winter committing slow suicide, and you are welcome to it. Just be sure to take 10-15 minutes to air out your clothing before you come indoors and sit next to me.

[youthere]

109. You know what? I don't smoke...

and I think this shit has gotten ridiculous. If I am outside and someone's cigarette smoke is blowing towards me, I move. I've smelled a lot more offensive smells in the great outdoors, let me tell you. I fully support smoking bans inside public places but until there is a ban on vehicle exhaust, the burning of yard waste (or any other waste), backyard barbeques,livestock lots and confinements, and the pesticides/herbicides/fertilizers that farmers drench their fields in, I'm not going to listen to ANY bitching because someone lit up. In fact, when someone can get that guy in my office to bathe on a regular basis and stop trying to cover his BO with Aqua Velva THEN I will listen to people bitch and moan about cigarette smoke OUTSIDE.

SO ALL YOU SMOKERS ON DU..come you just come on over to my house and light up-not inside please-but I'll get you a nice comfy chair on the patio, and an oversized ashtray. We'll sit in the sunshine, have something cool to drink and I''ll keep you company while you puff away. And IF by chance some of your smoke should drift my way (*gasp* the horror!) I'll just move my chair upwind of you. Cool?

[Bassic]

114. Haven't you heard?

It is socially acceptable to hate smokers. We _have_ to hate someone, no? :sarcasm:

[cgrindley]

115. Anti-smoking activists make me want to smoke

Jesus, these shrill jerks make me want to have more kids so we can go on a long road trip to Disneyworld with the windows all rolled up and me smoking like a fiend.

Yeah, I used to be a smoker, and if it wasn't bad for me, I'd start again in a heartbeat.

Matter of fact, if I was ever diagnosed with some inoperable condition and given a year to live, the first thing I'd do is start smoking 3 packs a day. I miss cigarettes like I miss my highschool sweetheart.

[Bassic]

116. So do I.

I would also start again, if it wasn't so damn bad for me.

[jeffrey_X]

117. Are you serious?

I walk behind people who smoke on the sidewalk and it (the fucking smoke) bothers the shit out of me. I can't stand it and it happens pretty much every day.

[Codeine]

125. But you can't POSSIBLY smell it!

and if you say you do, or that it has deleterious effects on your ability to breathe, you're obviously a liar.

Realize that people in the grip of a vicious addiction will do or say anything to justify their condition. ANYTHING. Your health, your safety, your comfort, your right to clean air are all trumped by their nasty, pathetic little jones; a junkie is a junkie is a junkie.

[blues90]

122. Boy did I open a can of worms

All I refered to is I was quitting cigs and then added in the other inconsiderate acts people who bitch about smoking do .

Sure second hand smoke may kill , I have no proof of this , as a child in the 50's all the adults smoked with rooms of smoke to burn ones eyes and I am still here . You can't blame all lung cancer on cig smoke either . It is assumed not 100% proven fact , many lung cancers happen for many reasons .

If a person never smoked then they have NO idea how difficult it can be , I would prefer to never have started and did not until I was 20 and I was completely against smokers .

I can tell you losing weight is alot easier than to quit smoking . Smoking has been said to be harder to quit than many highly addictive drugs .

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

123. I Will Smoke In Any Outdoor Area I Please, Regardless Of Law.

I would refuse to abide by any such law if one comes my way. No if ands or butts about it.

[frogcycle]

126. well, you'd get your arrogant ass thrown out of Wrigley