'Motorcycles: Green or Obscene?' - "Park that beast and buy a Ford Explorer for Gaia's sake!"

[chaska]

In case you should be thinking what I was...

I will need new (edit: new 'used') wheels soon (cheap transportation, in other words). I was considering a motorcycle for gas mileage reasons, but no more. Not only do they do a relatively poor job on that front but they are apparently big pollution machines, as well.

No bike for me.

http://www.evworld.com/article.cfm?storyid=260

Finally, after several exchanges with the EPA, I was contacted by someone who knew the answers. His name is Robert French. He works in the EPA. Rob confirmed my worst fears about motorcycle emissions. The statistics he provided are somewhat daunting for a layman, and he hastens to caution that the information he shares is not official EPAspeak. In short, he told me that, "In fact, motorcycles produce more harmful emissions than driving a car, or even a large SUV."

I asked Robert to compare a motorcycle with the Hybrid Toyota Prius. He wrote:Consider that the cleanest motorcycles in the 2001 model year certified at a level of about 0.32 grams/mile of hydrocarbons on the Federal Test Procedure. On the exact same test procedure the Prius certified at a hydrocarbon level of 0.0024 grams/mile. The cleanest (highway) motorcycle is therefore more than 100 times dirtier than the Prius. Said another way, you could drive the Prius for more than 100 miles before you got to the same hydrocarbon levels the motorcycle would emit in only 1 mile of driving.

There is a Prius parked in my driveway as I write. I've been driving it for two weeks now. Every time I see a person on a scooter or motorcycle now, I wonder if he thinks he is doing the environment a favor. I am tempted to shout the truth out the window to him, "Park that beast and buy a Ford Explorer for Gaia's sake!"

What still amazes me is how hard it was to find out the dirty truth about the motorized two-wheeled world. While I hate to spoil anyone's fun, I think folks should know that motorcycles are not green machines, but are rather, for our environment, obscene machines.

[DrunkenMaster]

1. Real Greens Ride Bikes!

They are good for you and the planet!

[deadmessengers]

2. Motorcycles don't have catalytic converters n/t

[texanshatingbush]

14. Wrong! Japanese street motorcycles have cat converters

[cloudbase]

83. As does my Guzzi.

Great MPG, an unbeatable fun factor, and the weirdness that comes with Guzzi ownership.

[ProgressiveFool]

24. not true, at least not my bike, BMW R1200C

R1200C CLASSIC
Forget the road less traveled. Make your own road.

Standard Equipment
• BMW EVO full integral ABS
• Closed loop 3-way catalytic converter
• Stainless steel exhaust system
• Oil cooler integrated in front section of frame
• 5-position mechanical front spring preload adjuster
• Side stand with starter interlock
• Diagnostic interface
• Jump-start connection point
• Low-beam headlamp height adjustment
• Large speedometer
• Tubeless cross-spoke wheels
• Stainless steel clutch and brake lines

edit: It seems many models of BMW have had cat converters since 1991

[silverweb]

48. Yup.

My son recently got an F 800 ST and it's got a standard cat converter, too.

Cast Aluminum Wheels
Closed Loop 3 Way Catalytic Converter
Diagnostic Interface
Digital Engine Management (BMSK)
Electronic Immobilizer
Fuel Tank Located Under Seat
Full Fairing
High Performance EVO Brake System
Info Flat Screen
Low Maintenance Belt Drive

The guy from the EPA who advised the author of the article in the OP would seem to either be a fool or have an agenda.

Knowing how politicized the EPA has become under BushCorp, I strongly suspect the latter.

[Marblehead]

3. there or no catalytic converters

on motorcycles

[HereSince1628]

4. Is it that there is no catalytic converter on a motorcycle?

Just wondering

[BuyingThyme]

5. Can you do something about the noise?

Why do some people need so much damn attention?

[michreject]

19. To let you know I'm here

When a car hits a bike, it's always the same excuse. "I didn't see him".:mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad:

[guitar man]

46. yep

If drivers in this country were required to become more educated, skilled and attentive, we might not have that problem. As it is, I see anything with 4 or more wheels as the enemy, a threat to my existence on the road :wow:

[michreject]

65. You wouldn't believe some of the things I've seen in cars

while on my bike. It's a wonder half the people are still alive.

[Firepit 462]

100. GTRMAN,

I remember you from the last sled bashing thread, courtesy of a squid who's never sat in a saddle. There will always be "thems that gets it.... and thems that don't".

see you on the stripes

[Clark2008]

49. Don't drive in our blind spots.

Stay right behind or in front - too often motorcycle riders get over to the side in hopes of suddenly passing us slower cars.

Don't do that and you won't get hit.

[Greyhound]

58. I can tell you don't ride. Your advise is a good way to die. n/t

[Rob H.]

59. I agree...

it's not a good idea to get there and stay there, but when I learned to drive I was taught to always check my blind spot before changing lanes. (Cars get it them and stay there, too.)

I took an MSF class a couple of years ago and the instructor said, "Any time you suit up to go for a ride, just assume that car drivers are out to kill you." It was among the best advice he gave us.

[uncle ray]

60. how about

you don't drive if you can't monitor your blind spots properly? it's no less reasonable than blaming a motorcycle rider for your inattentiveness.

motorcycle riders are VERY aware of where they are in relation to another vehicle.

[michreject]

66. Nobody but nobody rides in the blind spot

A rider wouldn't last a day. Cars change lanes without looking and run us off the road while were passing.

[Warren DeMontague]

81. Only time I've ever come close to hitting someone on a motorcycle

is when they were weaving in and out of lanes of traffic on the freeway like an idiot. Sorry, you're subject to the rules of the road- which means you behave like a car when you're on the freeway. That doesn't mean squeezing in between lanes of traffic, which I see riders do ALL the time.

[michreject]

85. I see cars doing the same thing

That doesn't mean they all do it. Same with motorcycles. I'm usually in the left lane going around 80. Center lane is bad. Cars on both sides and right lane is bad as well. People merge without looking. Just cut you right off.

[A HERETIC I AM]

89. Lane straddling or sharing is legal in California.

Which means a motorcycle can behave like a motorcycle on the freeway as long as it is not traveling faster than ten MPH more than the surrounding traffic and not exceeding the speed limit.

[Warren DeMontague]

93. The times I've noticed this behavior, it was way more than 10mph over surrounding traffic

I assume that was the whole point, to zip past slow-moving traffic. Incredibly dangerous and stupid, because anyone changing lanes isn't gonna see this person flying up from between the rows of cars.

[SoCalifer]

99. Yes it does

The reason WHY you see bikes splitting traffic all the time is because "the rules of the road" allow for it.

- Bikes are allowed to split traffic
- Bikes are allowed to ride in the carpool lanes with no passenger
- Bikes are not required for smog checks because they don't pollute as much as cars do


Some of the posters here obviously have zero experience with bikes. The best way to get yourself killed riding a bike in traffic is to either go the same or slower speed as traffic. This kills more people than those who foolishly ride at speeds greater than their ability.

Car drivers are synonymous for not seeing bikes. It is for this reason that the best tactic at riding a bike in traffic with cars is to ALWAYS be going a speed just a little faster than they are. This makes you a moving target with respect to car drivers, and thus, SEEN by car drivers.

I currently ride a Ducati 996; and for the last 22yrs I've rode sport-bikes in Los Angeles traffic without ANY incident, although, I am sure I've annoyed plenty car driving folks. Sorry, but I value my life and my skin more than someone else's annoyance.

[Warren DeMontague]

101. I'm not talking about "riding a little faster than traffic"

I'm talking about yahoos zipping along at 65mph past cars that are barely moving at all, on California freeways. I'm sure it's exhilarating to not have to waste time with all the car-bound idiots, but it's incredibly dangerous as well.

[Occulus]

72. Be aware you have blind spots

and check the fuckers for traffic before you change lanes.

Do that and you won't hit someone.

[Warren DeMontague]

73. So... I might hit you with my house at 4 in the fucking morning?

Because Jesus, I know you're there when you rattle my fucking walls and wake my kid up.

[michreject]

76. Sorry. Not me

I'm asleep by nine. Every night.

[Warren DeMontague]

80. Nevertheless, loud motorcycles are obnoxious.

Like smoking a cigar in an elevator. Flat out rude.

[michreject]

86. I kinda like the sound of a finely tuned engine...........nt

[Warren DeMontague]

74. If your penis is so huge that you need your chopper to advertise your manly presence for 5 miles

around, I would suggest that it-- and your several buckets of testosterone-- should be plenty to protect you from any pesky little "car".

[michreject]

77. My penis is huge so I need loud pipes

while I own gun because I have a little dick. I should write a book. :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

[Warren DeMontague]

79. I don't care about the gun

but if you ran around my neighborhood firing it off at ridiculous decibels, then there'd be a problem with that, too.

As it is, I don't understand what the point is of having noise ordinances AT ALL if motorcycles aren't subject to them. Seems to me I should be able to stand on other people's lawns blasting the Grateful Dead into their ears.

[Jonathan50]

95. A quiet motocycle can go a lot faster than a noisy one.

And not get noticed by the police.

I used to weave through traffic at high speed on a home made crotch rocket a long time ago.

The technique is to always be moving away from the car when you are passing them, pretend you're invisible and ride to stay alive anyway.

If you are blasting between lines of stalled traffic, you're asking for trouble.


As long as they don't deliberately rev their engines to make noise at four am, I don't care that much about the hogs, it would be nice if they muffled them a bit though.

[dave123williams]

6. Well, you're clearly kind of behind the curve on green fun on wheels:

http://www.flytheroad.com

It's a carver; goes 100mph, gets 100mpg, and is the most fun thing on the road, period.

[chaska]

8. I'm not even gonna bother to look at the price...

If you have to ask you can't afford it, right.

Cool, but I'm po'.

[dave123williams]

26. Hybrids are like 22k, fully electric is a little more.

[ComerPerro]

90. edit - my mistake. I thought it was you who bought the hybrid, didn't realize it was article author

[IDemo]

10. There's also the 'Ecomobile' (if you have a spare $80k laying around)

http://imgred/

[orwell]

15. Way cool...Thanks n/t

[dave123williams]

27. No problem; my pleasure.

[valerief]

7. They're noise pollution. Motorcycles and thunderboom cars probably

cause more heart attacks than ice cream.

[chaska]

9. I agree. I hate Harley's for that very reason, but...

there used to be (are there still?) motorcycles with small engines that were relatively..., well, not as loud as a Harley.

[kiahzero]

11. Most of that is aftermarket pipes.

Well, that and the noisy oily inefficient mess that is a Harley engine.

[valerief]

12. Yeah, I understand that motorcycles don't need to be noisy. The asshats

who ride them make them noisy. Just like the asshats in the thunderboom cars.

[paparush]

55. I'm sure you've heard the standard reply - "Loud Pipes Save Lives"

You may not see the Harley, but by golly you should be able to hear it.
(unless you've gone deaf from listening for too many Harley's)

[cloudbase]

84. If loud pipes saved lives,

there'd be an insurance discount for them.

[guitar man]

23. Oily, innefficient?

You're talking about the shovelhead and earlier engines. The Evolution (and later on, Twin Cam engines) that replaced the shovel in the '80s are anything but oily and inefficient. One of the biggest reasons I bought my sportster was that it had every other cruiser in its class beat hands down for gas mileage.And it doesn't leak one drop of oil.

Noisy is up to the owner and the pipes they install.

[michreject]

68. Harley solved that problem

when they went fron a Shovelhead to a Blockhead in 84.

[bunkerbuster1]

20. Stock Harley pipes don't have to be obnoxious.

I do hear some Harleys that are owned by responsible riders, who aren't looking to let an entire county know they're on the road. It's actually a nice sounding throb.

Conversely, ANY bike can be made to sound obnoxiously loud, including a 50cc scooter.

[michreject]

67. I took my stock pipes off

I run straight pipes. BTW, I have a harley.:evilgrin:

[Warren DeMontague]

87. If you google "loud fucking motorcycles", you get this:

http://www.craigslist.org/about/best/sfo/27001847.html

:thumbsup:

[michreject]

88. I don't understand your intent

Do you think that you're going to convince me to change my pipes? Not in this lifetime.

[Warren DeMontague]

92. No.

Just pointing out how obnoxious it is to ride around blasting people with that god-awful noise.

And maybe, just maybe, there are some folks out there with "loud pipes" who honestly don't realize how much they bug the crap out of the rest of us, so I figure I'm doing them a favor. I like to believe most people who are older than, say, 12, don't actively want to annoy, piss off, or offend their fellow humans for no good reason at all. If I had really bad body odor, I would want someone to tell me. Likewise, I would hope that somewhere there is an obnoxious loud motorcycle rider who just doesn't realize what a massive self-centered prick he or she is being by riding around carpet bombing residential neighborhoods with bone-jarring assaults of noise.

[Jed Dilligan]

102. That's hilarious

thanks for posting. I have more of a problem with bumpin' stereos than bikes. Some asswipe's bass actually began to assault me as I typed the last sentence! Gack. I like the sleep-deprivation remedy, for real.

[Greyhound]

51. There actually is a good reason for the noise.

As anybody that has ridden for more than a few months can tell you, the roads are choked with people in cars and trucks that pay little attention to anything not directly in front of them (frequently not even that). They make abrupt lane changes without signaling, talk on their cell phones, eat, fard, read, etc.

Motorcycles are inherently dangerous, only two wheels moving at high speed without the benefit of of being surrounded by a ton and a half of steel. Every time there is a car-motorcycle accident, regardless of fault, the motorcycle loses, and loses big.

Combine these factors with the fact that a motorcycle is only about 1/5 the size of a car and you quickly realize that, for all intents and purposes, as a rider you are effectively invisible, and since you will not be seen you'd better be heard.

I know it's annoying (think how annoying it is to be in the center of the sound all the time), but it saves a lot of lives.

[Bake]

94. The real reason they hate noisy motorcycles ...

They can't hear their damn CELL PHONES in their cars while they're eating or fixing their makeup or ... you get the idea.

Bake

[OwnedByFerrets]

13. So, I am supposed to park my motorcycle

that gets 45 miles to the gallon and drive a SUV that gets 12-14 mpg. I dont think so. Motorcycles are NOT the problem. Besides, I cant afford a SUV anyway.

[chaska]

16. Hint: Tung 'N' ch-EEK!

[OwnedByFerrets]

30. oops........

:blush:

[Eric J in MN]

78. So motorcycles don't produce more hydrocarbons than cars? NT

NT

[jakem]

17. Ridiculous comments

- Motorcycles are not loud, dirty or smelly from the manufacturer (this is up to the rider mods)

- They get much better milage than the vast majority of cars

- They are efficient to drive, so while they may produce more hydrocarbons (and I will avoid this part of the discussion entirely, as I have never cared to check), on a motorcycle you spend less time in traffic, you take up less space on the road and in parking, you are not hauling around 4000 pounds of metal for one persons convenience.



As a side note, on average bikers are a pretty environmentally aware group

[Double T]

18. Some info on low emissions motorcycles...............

http://powersports.honda.com/the_story/environment/index.asp?bhcp=1
http://www.sae.org/technical/papers/1999-01-3258
http://www.iea.org/textbase/pamsdb/detail.aspx?mode=cc&id=2361
http://www.leftlanenews.com/bmws-clever-concept-completed.html

[kiahzero]

21. Odd that he uses 2001 data.

Especially since in the past five years, more and more bikes are coming with catalytic converters.

[OxQQme]

36. Here's 3 wheels the other way around

http://www.motorcycle-usa.com/Article_Page.aspx?ArticleID=4279&Page=1

[chaska]

22. Well, the article was published in '01....

I had a hard time finding any enviro-info on bikes. This turned up, so....

I could never afford anything newer than that anyway, so it's applicable to me.

I'm glad manufacturers are finally waking up to this issue.

[jakem]

28. Huh?! You couldnt afford a newer bike, but you bought a Prius?! nt

[chaska]

34. I WISH! The guy that wrote the article bought a Prius.

[RC Quake]

25. I hate motorcycles for one reason.

Most times when I walk my dogs, which is twice daily, there are motorcycles that come down the street. Nothing gets my 70 lb. dog more aggravated than the sound of a motorcycle. And I have yet to find one motorcycle driver that doesn't aggravate the situation intentionally. They see me struggling with 2 dogs trying to stop one from dragging all of us into the middle of the street and decide it would be a great idea to make as much noise as possible and make aggressive moves toward us.

I guess it's not the motorcycles I hate...it's the drivers. They are careless and aggressive.

[jakem]

29. Let me guess...

They aggravate the situation by speeding up as they get close to the dog?
That is how you don't run the damn thing over...

Motorcycle riders are no more inconsiderate and careless than dog owners. Or anyone else for that matter.

[RC Quake]

40. Maybe for you...

but the motorcycle riders I encounter do it for laughs. My dog has never gotten close, because I am a law abiding and respectful dog owner. I have every right to be able to walk my dogs down the street, on leashes, without some jackass trying to see if they can hurt me or my dogs.

Don't stick up for these jackasses. Some day they will go too far...and I just hope they have a good lawyer.

[jakem]

42. Im not defending the jackasses...

Merely pointing out that an equal number of jackasses travel by foot, bus, and car.

Some own dogs too (not referring to you, see below)


______________________


* There are approximately 4.7 million dog bites per year nationwide.
* Letter carriers suffer about 3,000 bites annually as they deliver the mail.
* There are more than 850,000 dog bites requiring medical attention in the U.S. yearly.
* In a twelve-month period from 1995 to 1996, at least 25 people in the U.S. have died from dog attacks, 20 of whom were children.
* The number of dog bites requiring medical attention has increased 15 times faster than the increase in dog ownership.

[stompk]

50. I'm a motorcycle rider

and in advanced motorcycle riding class ( required at my base to ride on post )
we were taught that to avoid (a) running over dogs and (b) to avoid getting bitten by them
we should slow down as we approach them, downshift and then accelerate hard away from them.

this allows you to ensure (by slowing down ) that you don't hit one if he runs in front of you
and (by speeding up ) that he does not get a chance to bite you. this is also supposed to discourage them from chasing you since you move away faster than they can run.

I'm not sure what the bikes you are upset with are doing, but I can see how this might appear to be "messing" with the dogs.

as a side note, we were also taught to "blip" the throttle when we downshift, as this smooths the deceleration and helps prevent the rear tire from skidding.

so that could also appear, to someone who wasn't familiar with the practice, like we were messing with dogs.

having been bitten by a dog with an owner not as aware of his dogs as you are, I can assure you, this only has to happen once to reinforce the training :-)

[RC Quake]

52. I can understand if you are approaching a loose animal.

Seriously, a dog that is off leash is a completely different situation. I think that what is being taught just puts the handler in danger more. By doing what you have described accelerates the dogs anxiety, thus increasing my chances of being seriously injured. If they would just continue on their path at the current speed everything would be fine. I can handle my dogs with general distractions, but when added and unnecessary distractions are included...I will be the one laying dead in the street. Not the motorcyclist.

[ProgressiveFool]

32. The last bastion of bigotry

will be against motorcycle riders...

[stompk]

53. one thing I do laugh at

is how every group hates every other group.

hikers hate bicycles on their trails.
bicyclist hate motorcycles on their trails
motorcyclists hate horses on their trails
equestrians hate bicyclists on their trails
atvs hate jeeps on their trails
jeeps hate trucks on their trails
trucks hate hikers on their trails
ad nauseum.

it is human nature to hate the group you are not in.

[A HERETIC I AM]

91. So if you are a Gay, Atheist, Bicycle riding Hiker that owns a horse, you're fucked.

Yes?

[Greyhound]

54. Far from the last, but I get your point.

This attitude (it's annoying to me, so lets make a law) does seem to be much more prevalent in CA.

[guitar man]

33. not me

I'd probably want to stop and pet the dogs :)

[kiahzero]

41. I'm betting what happens is something like this?

"Instead, shift down and approach the animal slowly. As you reach it, speed up quickly. You will leave the animal behind."
http://www.dmv.virginia.gov/webdoc/citizen/drivers/mcmanual/mcmanual10.asp

The downshift would make the bike noisier, as the engine RPM suddenly increases due to the gear shift. However, this is the safest way to protect both your dog and the rider. If the dog breaks free, it'll intercept the bike based on the slower speed, and when the driver increases the speed, the dog will be aiming for a spot well behind it.

[RC Quake]

44. Something like that.

But you forgot the "veer directly into the path of the animal and handler" to see if they really have control of the situation. Laugh uncontrollably as you drive away.

[Greyhound]

56. I think you're assigning a malevolent motivation where none exists.

I've been riding for 30 years and I've never seen anything like you describe. When we're passing by loose or otherwise out of control animals, our only consideration is to get away as quickly as possible. Killing an animal, wrecking your bike, and a trip to the hospital, will ruin you whole day. I doubt anybody is messing with you, it just might seem that way from your perspective.

Live and let live.

[RC Quake]

63. Actually, I'm not.

I live at the base of some foothills, where motorcyclists frequent for a little off-road play. They HAVE to enter the foothills on the street in which I travel with my dogs. This rude behavior on their part happens all of the time. Not my imagination. Granted, the drivers are on the young side...very immature. But, trust me. It happens.

[Greyhound]

64. Sorry, I don't doubt that what you say happens at all, I was only suggesting

that the motivation might not be what you think it is. OTOH, as a former SoCal resident I also know that there are far too many rats in that cage and they're turning nasty, so maybe the mistake is mine.

[michreject]

69. They're probably trying to get the hell away from you and your dogs

That's all I need is an animal getting in the way while I'm on two wheels.

[RC Quake]

70. Nice.

Yeah, I always walk my dogs in the middle of the fuckin street... How stupid!

:eyes:

I mind my own business on the sidewalk. Just leave me alone is all I ask.

[michreject]

71. Let me see if I got this right

You want me to forego all training because it disturbs your dogs. By not doing so, your dogs will be in the middle of the street, pulling you behind them, risking my life.

I'll stay on the street, you stay on the sidewalk with your dogs and we will get along just fine.

[RC Quake]

75. I'm not asking you to fore-go any of your training.

I'm asking the assholes that veer out of their lane ILLEGALLY toward the sidewalk where I am walking my dogs LEGALLY and endangering ME just for a few laughs. Grow up already.

Just to be fair...I also hate dog owners that insist on walking their dogs off leash. It's ILLEGAL and endangers innocent people. There are dick-head dog owners and there are dick-head motorcyclists. I just have the added bonus of living in an area that attracts the assholes.

These assholes have made me fear for my safety so much that I walk with a knife, mace and baseball bat.

[Squatch]

31. Think of efficiency in terms of weight-to-mileage

2006 Honda Civic DX Coupe
- Weight with 2 passengers: 2586 + 400 = 2986 ~ 3000 lbs
- Highway miles per gallon: 39mpg

2007 BMW K 1200 LT
- Max weight: 1322 lbs
- Highway miles per gallon: 58mpg

Summary:
For every 1 mpg, the Honda moves nearly 77 pounds.
For every 1 mpg, the BMW moves only 23 pounds.

Therefore, the Honda is 3 1/2 times more efficient than the motorcycle.

[jakem]

35. And a hot air balloon is more efficient than the Honda...

Both the Honda and the BMW drive around with mostly one person on board.
Why does it matter if the Honda is more efficient by this math?

Besides, the bike is 23x more fun.

[ProgressiveFool]

37. that's a big bike there, though

Most motorcycles will not weigh more than 600 lbs, with say another 200 for a rider.

On my commute, if I take the motorcycle, in traffic, I get home in 20-30 minutes. If I take my car, it takes 50-90 minutes.

[Squatch]

39. Dry weight is around 700 pounds.

So, if you add fuel and a 200 pound rider, your efficiency is around 16.5.

[kiahzero]

43. Do you split lanes and such, or is it just from being able to go around people to make turns?

Perhaps it's because I'm too cautious and conscientious of the law, but I don't split lanes and I don't notice any significant time savings on my bike. On the other hand, parking in the city is an absolute breeze.

[ProgressiveFool]

47. Splitting lanes is perfectly legal in California

Though if there's any accident at all, it's assumed that the motorcyclist caused it, and sometimes people get tickets for doing it "recklessly". Reckless lane-splitting is going more than 10-15 mph faster than the traffic on either side of you.

[Greyhound]

57. I believe that CA is still the only state where that is true.

Now if they'd only dump the helmet law, it would be perfect.

[Xithras]

103. Ah, but you're ignoring real-world implementation.

In the real world, that Honda Civic will probably be carrying a single passenger to work on his 50 mile commute. That person is going to consume 3.2 gallons for his daily work roundtrip.

Despite it's relative inefficiencies, the BMW will carry the same passenger the same distance in the same period of time utilizing only 1.7 gallons of gasoline. While the Honda may be more efficient on paper, the BMW will use less fuel in daily use.

One other thing to mention is that the pollution described is hydrocarbon emissions, which are localized particulate matter. While bikes certainly put out more HC emissions, their reduced fuel usage means lower emissions of greenhouse gas pollutants including carbon dioxide. They're a little dirtier locally, but have less impact that automobiles globally.

[TlalocW]

38. Do what I did - Buy a used Ford Econoline 250 (Cargo Van) -- 12 to 15 mpg

Oh, I should mention that it runs on Compressed Natural Gas, which burns more cleanly than gasoline (and is only 94 cents per gallon). :)

TlalocW

[chaska]

45. Cool! But....

unfortunately, from what I'm reading lately, we're rapidly running out of natural gas (well, faster than gasoline anyway).

That said, is hard to convert a vehicle to run on NG? And do the MPG numbers change all; do you still get 12-15 with NG?

[TlalocW]

62. I don't think we are running out of natural gas faster

In fact, America is one of the biggest exporters of it - to all places - the Middle East because they like to export as much oil to us as possible. Crazy world.

The MPGs stay about the same, and the cool thing is that CNG is not as hard on an engine as regular gas is so the motor will last longer and can go longer between oil changes. This one came from the factory as a CNG vehicle and was probably used at a Ford plant for onsite deliveries so there was no conversion necessary. Conversions unfortunately run between 11 and 12K, but there are tax incentives.

I bought this because my side business - magician/balloon twisting - is growing, and I want to add decorating to it so I wanted to be able to haul around not only large sculptures but also pre-made balloon columns and 200 pound helium tanks. I knew I was going to need some sort of SUV/Van to do that, and I was looking at a hybrid Toyota Highlander when I ran into articles about CNG and figured that was the way to go and found a place in my state - Oklahoma - that sold new and used ones and figured I'd go for something ridiculously huge to allow for more growth in the future. I'm looking forward to pulling up in it after I get my logos painted on it when working with other balloon twisters at large events.

Unfortunately, not every state has CNG pumps. Oklahoma has a plethora of them around the bigger cities as does north Texas. Kansas has none, and I'm not sure about Missouri or Arkansas yet. But as it will be primarily for use in Oklahoma, I'm not worried, and I still have my regular car for non-business uses. I have two pumps near me - each one about five mils away - which is a small price to pay in my opinion.

TlalocW

[NickB79]

98. I think you have your facts mixed up. The US has been importing NG since the 70's

The US peaked in NG production in the 1970's, and has been importing NG from Canada for years now to bolster our falling production.

Not only that, but it appears that natural gas has just peaked here in North America, including Canada:

http://www.pastpeak.com/archives/2005/06/exxon_natural_g.htm

And then there's this news article: http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20602099&sid=aKfnFfrQZo8M&refer=energy

Buried in it is this quote: " ``We're going to have the biggest decline in western Canadian production in the history of the industry,'' Linder said. ``There's going to be 400 to 600 million cubic feet a day less production from western Canada in 2007 versus 2006.''

Linder said the combination of falling imports from Canada, the potential for production disruptions from hurricanes, and a tighter supply picture than a year ago will work to keep gas prices in the $9 to $10 per million Btu range this summer."

[MadHound]

61. Old article, old news, outdated information

<http://www.jsonline.com/story/index.aspx?id=195162&format=print>

New motorcycles have to meet stringent emission laws now, thus making them cleaner, greener machines. Combine that with the fact that they get much better gas mileage than cars, you have a great combination.

[Jcrowley]

82. What goes into

the mining, manufacturing and processing of the high tech components in hybrids (or anything for that matter)?

How often do these parts need to be replaced? Where do they come from?

And so on...

We carry in our hearts the true country
And that cannot be stolen
We follow in the steps of our ancestry
And that cannot be broken

[Daedelus76]

96. very green

How can 60+ mpg not be green?

I ride. I've got a Rebel 250 motorcycle, and a Vino 125 scooter. The Rebel gets about 65 mpg. It doesn't have a catalytic converter, just glass pack exhaust. The engine is Honda so it's not particularly dirty, and it's only 250cc's. The engine runs a little lean, so you get mostly nitrogen oxides and less hydrocarbons. It even has a system to recapture gasoline vapor from the tank, which is actually a bit of a pain if you need to replace the gas tank, and i don't know that it's all that necessary. I tend to fill up in the mornings anyways.

I've also got a Vino 125. It gets 87-100 mpg, which is about average for that size of scooter. It has a catalytic coating on the muffler. The exhaust smell is more noticeable than some cars, but certainly less than an SUV, and again the engine runs lean compared to a car. It will do about 50 mph tops, maybe 55 if wind conditions are favorable.

I'll probably sell my Rebel soon and get a Burgman or Honda Reflex scooter. 250-400cc's, 65-75 mpg. It'll take me on the expressways. I'll have to see, though... they aren't cheap. But certainly cheaper than a hybrid. Most scooters and motorcycles are moving away from carburators, and towards fuel injection, which boost the fuel economy slightly, and greatly improves the emissions, especially at startup. The Burgman is fuel injected, for instance. All the scooters in Japan and many in Europe are fuel injected. Motorcycles have largely already moved there, except for some of the older designs, like the Ninja 250 or the Rebel or Yamaha Virago (which is set to be phased out soon).

[EnviroBat]

97. Some assholes in cars have INTENTIONALLY attempted to run

me left of center, off the road, what have you. That's called vehicular homicide, had they killed me. Usually they get a huge, costly dent kicked in their door panel. After 20 years I've become somewhat of "road warrior" when I ride the bike, but this year it's for sale. Had a close call with a deer last summer, and I've decided I like walking too much to keep up with the dangers of motorbike operation. Maybe I'll get another one some day...