Politics is not war.

[armyowalgreens]

Maybe I'm being naive. But to suggest that politics is some sort of violent conflict is really disturbing. The point of political discourse is to find a resolution to an issue. The best way to do that is to not view your opposing sides as the enemy that needs to be destroyed.


Are there some issues that demand a more aggressive approach? Absolutely. But to suggest that the entire world of politics is some sort of all out battle is ludicrous.

I've seen some really disturbing posts on here recently suggesting that it's okay to mock or attack someone because "politics is war." So it's okay to abandon our own moral high ground because, in war, anything goes.

This entire "wolfs on the prowl" mentality sounds very similar to the rhetoric coming from the previous administration.

Win at all costs. The ends justify the means.

I'm no moral absolutist. But I have my limits.

[Vickers]

1. You're so pretty.

:P

Brace yerself, amigo.

[dorkulon]

2. Have fun getting killed.

The war attitude is a simple reaction to the Atwater/Rove politics of the right. John Kerry got killed because he wouldn't stoop to their level. So did Dukakis. You can't have a conversation with someone who's stabbing you to death.

[armyowalgreens]

6. There is a difference between agressively attacking the rhetoric of the right...

and resorting to base reactions like mockery and populist rage.

Sorry, if I have to get that low in order to win, I don't want to win.

[dorkulon]

10. I sympathize with that.

I go back and forth on the topic, frankly. Often I find that, when the Dems engage in such silly stuff, it makes me want to puke. But then, we have an opposition that simply conjures falsehoods -- Birthers, the census, euthanizing the elderly and so on. They simply don't care about the truth, and so arguing with them is really pointless. It's like playing chess with a three-year-old. He's just going to knock all the pieces off the board and declare victory.

[Telly Savalas]

23. Can somebody cite some examples of Obama stooping to Rove's level?

If not, then the proposition that one needs to wallow in the mud to win is bullshit.

[dorkulon]

27. That's an excellent point.

I think something that made Obama's campaign so inspiring was that his decency seemed to be unstoppable somehow. OTOH, he didn't just ignore scurrilous attacks, he addressed them directly. Kerry failed in that. Also, I'm not sure the "brush your shoulders off" strategy will work for anyone else.

[timeforpeace]

28. Even though they are dead/gone, we must not change. Now we do the killing and we like it.

[Fumesucker]

3. "War is merely a continuation of politics,"

-Carl von Clausewitz

[armyowalgreens]

7. I think war is the break down of politics. Not the continuation.

[Vickers]

9. War is the breakdown of diplomacy, not politics.

:thumbsup:

[SleeplessInAlabama]

11. Diplomacy is the breakdown of ideals in the interest of politics n/t

SleeplessInAlabama has a Rahm Emmanuel streak

[armyowalgreens]

12. Oh god damn you and your philosophical logic.

Fuck me...

I think I need to smoke a bowl.

[SleeplessInAlabama]

15. I like you anyway n/t

[Fumesucker]

21. Eh, who is it again that declares when there will be war?

“Naturally the common people don't want war; neither in Russia, nor in England, nor in America, nor in Germany. That is understood. But after all, it is the leaders of the country who determine policy, and it is always a simple matter to drag the people along, whether it is a democracy, or a fascist dictatorship, or a parliament, or a communist dictatorship. Voice or no voice, the people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. That is easy. All you have to do is to tell them they are being attacked, and denounce the pacifists for lack of patriotism and exposing the country to danger. It works the same in any country.” -Hermann Goering, at the Nuremberg Trials

[Nickster]

26. Absolutely. Now if we could only get people to re-read Clausewitz or better yet continue his work

we'd be much better off.

[Strong Atheist]

4. :

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=6200344&mesg_id=6200405

[Enthusiast]

5. If our political opponents

treat politics as war we must respond in kind or be defeated. And that is a fact. The Democratic Party has been responding weakly to GOP aggression for far too long. This has damaged us. The American electorate simply is not sophisticated enough to appreciate the nuanced arguments made by media Democrats.

[armyowalgreens]

8. The reality is not that we are at war. It's that we are being taunted by an ignorant opponent.

I refuse to give into their mockery of the political system.

[Hannah Bell]

14. i disagree that the party must respond in kind. clinton's popularity stayed

high, despite attacks on him, because to economy was ok.

the proper response to idiocy is laughter & jobs.

[JVS]

13. "Maybe I'm being naive." is the part of your post I agree with.

[AllentownJake]

16. More WWF than war

90% of this is staged for our amusement.

[annabanana]

17. It didn't used to be... The scorched earth tactics were introduced by

Newt Gingrich.. But they were hatched by the College Republican National Committee back in the early 70's.

google on!

[ProfessorGAC]

18. Then If You Know All That. . .

. . .why your continued naivete? Once the other side firing shots, the time for diplomacy is over. You can't wish it otherwise. The shooting began with Atwater. A little late now for rose colored glasses, isn't it?
GAC

[annabanana]

22. Who me?

(not the OP poster, here)

[ProfessorGAC]

29. Sorry, Anna. I Posted In The Wrong Place

I meant what i said, just not to you! I screwed up.
GAC

[Are_grits_groceries]

19. Make no mistake about it.

It is war, and it is getting uglier by the day. Read Frank Rich's column to understand why.
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/08/02/opinion/02rich.html

The fight between the entrenched white interests everywhere and the people who make up the changing demographics will be beyond the pale. There will be many progressive whites fighting the people who oppose change. That fact will be lost.

Most of the opposition you see today such as birthers, NRA fanatics, anti-abortion fanatics, opponents of gay rights and a lot of others are thinly veiled attacks to go after anybody who disagrees with the people who have been in charge forever. I wonder if all the people in these movements realize what they are really a part of or if they would care.

People arming themselves to the teeth aren't arming themselves against "Barack Obama." They are arming themselves for the time in 2042 when whites are predicted to be in the minority.

The first battles in this war will be political. We better fight tooth and nail, and give it everything we've got. We can't afford to cede anything.

Please don't assume this will all be in the South. This will be the place where it will be the hardest to dig out those entrenched interests. They have had all those years after the area was ceded by the Democrats to the Republicans after civil rights legislation was signed. That was a huge mistake. There should have been a viable effort to keep a meaningful Democratic voice heard in the South. Instead, the Rethugs have had years to plant their memes unchallenged for the most part. However, as the McCotters and Bachmans of the world prove, the fight will be in many places.

Look at what is happening just in health care. The opponents are willing and able to bus people all around the country to disrupt townhall meetings. They also sent people to Florida to disrupt the recount in 2000.

Call me pessimistic and flame me. I will battle them however, wherever, and whenever necessary. I have seen what happens when you cede the field because it gets nasty. You have been warned.

[lunatica]

20. Frank Rich has an interesting description of the US

"Beer won’t cool the fury of those who can’t accept the reality that America’s racial profile will no longer reflect their own."

[NuttyFluffers]

24. politics is application of power to control dispensation of goods and means.

war is the violent application of force to one's power to control dispensation of goods and means.

as someone already quoted Clausewitz, there's no need to continue this debate. you can think as you please, you can even choose to believe you are"opting out" -- but you can never truly escape the game, and you will likely be an early casualty. everyone loves easy pickings in a game of conquest...

[mmonk]

25. Then sit there while your interests get run over.

[nadinbrzezinski]

30. Actually war has been the pursuit of poliical ends by other means

since Tzun Tze and the Art of War.

Just that most people LOVE TO STOP right before the shooting starts.

:-)

Don't worry, outside of war colleges and poli sci courses most folks don't think that way either.

Oh and if you really want to be disturbed, WAR is not limited to humans either. We know chimps engage in it, as well as dolphins and now Elephants.