Military family's tattered flag angers neighbors

[kpete]

Military family's tattered flag angers neighbors
Father vowed not to take it down until soldier returns from Iraq.
Published online on Friday, Jul. 31, 2009
By Denny Boyles / The Fresno Bee



Faded nearly white and torn to shreds, the American flag flying in front of the home of Louis and Jessie Haros has drawn strange looks, and anger, from passers-by in recent weeks.

People have knocked on their door and done everything short of demand that the couple replace the tattered banner. One man even left a brand-new flag on the porch.

Louis Haros knows that sun, wind and rain have taken their toll on the once-new flag. But the last thing he means is to show disrespect. He said that his love for his son, Paul Haros, and for his country, have kept it flying long after the first rips appeared.

This week Paul Haros, a corporal in the California National Guard, is scheduled to return from Iraq. He served with the 82nd Airborne Division in Operation Desert Storm, and has served three tours in Iraq as a member of the Army National Guard.

more:
http://www.fresnobee.com/263/story/1570067.html

[SpiralHawk]

1. Homelanders do not want to know of the real sacrifices of war

made by our sons and daughters. They'd rather listen to Republicon chickenhawks like Beck, O'Reilly, Hannity and Limbaugh, than face the hard truth.

[Tangerine LaBamba]

2. No -

there are long-standing rules about displaying our flag, and while I'm the first to advocate free speech in all its forms, this one is just wrong.

He's showing complete disrespect, regardless of what he says.

He could have flown any number of flags night and day, through all kinds of weather, but not our flag. Our flag is special that way, and this man has just made up his own rules, which happen to suck.

I'd be knocking on his door, too.

Shame on him............................

[mr blur]

7. "Our flag is special that way" - Are you insane? It's a fucking flag!

What is it with Americans and their bloody flag? Don't you have anything important to worry about? Think about what your flag means to half the world and be proud of something more meaningful.

[Tangerine LaBamba]

14. No, it's far more than "a fucking flag,"

and all you're doing is broadcasting your ignorance.

Listen to the words of our National Anthem.

Then get a clue.........................

[uppityperson]

32. How do you feel about people burning the USA flag in protest?

[Tangerine LaBamba]

55. That matter has been litigated -

you can research and read the opinions. I lived through those days, and it was a rich, interesting matter.

If you equate deliberate neglect with political activity, then you're just confused.

The father is making no political statement - he's simply co-opted a national symbol for his own personal timetable. I see no statement in that, just a countdown - as protected speech, it's meaningless.....................

[uppityperson]

75. Keeping it out until his kid comes home from was isn't a political statement? Oh Kay.

I guess we must have different opinions on what "political activity" means, since I consider a flag flying "He said that his love for his son, Paul Haros, and for his country, have kept it flying long after the first rips appeared" for this is political. If his kid was merely, say, traveling around Europe on vacation, that would be a different matter.

Wild.

You never answered my question of how YOU feel, just that it has been litigated. I am interested in how YOU feel.

Oh yes, I "lived through those days" also, so don't try playing "protestor than thou" with me.

[AzNick]

38. It means something to them. Otherwise, agreed, it's an object ...

Like the statue of liberty is an object.

[Tangerine LaBamba]

56. Yes, but

it's a bit more meaningful to our history than the Statue of Liberty.

Our Congress saw fit to pass laws to protect our flag..................

[salguine]

72. No, I'm pretty sure it's a fucking flag. And as far as the national anthem goes,

I never cared much for it myself. "America the Beautiful" would haver been an infinitely better choice. Come to think of it, I think American society needs to outgrow its flag/military worship anyway.

[Onceuponalife]

88. Are you for real?

My god, get a grip. I thought I walked into the freeper forum by accident. You tell people their opinions are wrong then when they say YOU are wrong, it's "how can an OPINION be wrong?" Time for your medication, the dementia is taking hold.

This is why I will never fly a flag, because of the kinds of idiots and busybodies that this poor father has to contend with.

[Echo In Light]

100. "A flag is a symbol, and I leave symbols to the symbol minded." George Carlin

Remember that Carlin didn't believe in national or ethnic pride, since pride should be attributable to accomplishment, not genetic accident or geographic location. He was Irish but refused to take seriously St Patty's Day.

[Onceuponalife]

113. Damn, how I miss George, And Lenny..

[wolfgangmo]

111. musically speaking

The national anthem is a 3rd rate song with really bad lyrics.

[Mariana]

16. Not only that, but it's HIS fucking flag to do with as he chooses.

I get really incensed when people go on about "our" flag. Bullshit. If I buy a flag, it's MINE, not "ours" and no one else but me decides what's to be done with it.

[Tangerine LaBamba]

57. Wrong -

check out your assumption - you're wrong.

Amazing what "patriots" who are so busy defending individual rights don't know about the American flag.....................

[blondeatlast]

66. Truly it is. And it's delightful to see one of them die in flames from their pathetic

ignorance of the difference between law and protocol.

[Mariana]

67. Sorry, wrong place. nt.

[salguine]

73. Why is he wrong? Because you say he's wrong? Get over yourself.

[uppityperson]

77. How are these, in your estimation?

[Mariana]

79. Off with their heads! LOL. nt.

[SleeplessInAlabama]

90. Maybe the point is that individual rights have never been "patriotic". n/t

[Orsino]

103. I wonder how many people have knocked on their door...

...to offer sincere good wishes for their son's safe return.

[pleah]

27. Apparently not.

And, I agree with you.

[solstice]

34. ITA. I have never understood the virture of revering a piece of fabric.

Nor do I understand the virtue of being patriotic. Just seems like a way to show off over something that occurred by happenstance.

America - the country that tortures, covers it up, and holds nobody accountable.

Tattered flag is very appropriate.

[Mariana]

59. It's a form of idolatry. This is made very obvious

whenever some people agitate for laws against "desecrating" flags.

[bridgit]

40. you're goddamn right it's just a fucking flag fuck it!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xwrX-LN9-L0

[Bethesda Home]

9. You are right.

It's the National Flag Code.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_Flag_Code

When I was in Marine boot camp at Parris Island, SC, we studied the Flag Code.

When the two 1-hour classes finished our Senior Drill Instructor told us:

"You have to remember all of that because you are going to be tested on it. But also remember, If we had to obey that code the Marines could never take a flag into combat".

I'm paraphrasing, of course, I don't remember exactly his words, but the were true.

I display two flags on my front porch: The Marines and The USA flag.

A while back a lady stopped her car and told me she was offended by the flags.

I said, "Lady, I was shot two times in Vietnam defending your right to say that".

She apologized.

I've also had perfect strangers thank me for serving my country.

[DavidDvorkin]

15. Our invasion and occupation of Vietnam was in defense of our domestic freedom of speech?

An interesting view of history.

[Mariana]

17. People have to live with themselves somehow. nt.

[tkmorris]

49. Exactly so

The soldier, more than anyone else, finds it difficult to admit what the wars they fight are really all about.

[KittyWampus]

128. aren't you just SO SMART. You should really lecture soldiers. Really.

[KittyWampus]

127. and apparently a few DU'ers need to learn how to live with OTHER people.

[H2O Man]

76. Yes.

Vietnam attacked the USA because they hated our freedoms.

[KittyWampus]

129. and everyone who got shot at/got maimed/got dead in Vietnam deserved it.

[EOTE]

133. You're throwing up strawmen rather fast here.

No one is suggesting that Vietnam veterans are dishonorable or that they in the least deserved the hell they were put through. Many here are objecting to the notion that the Vietnam war was fought to protect our freedoms. It does our country no service to pretend that we engaged in Vietnam for that purpose. I have the utmost respect for the great bulk of service men and women, but it does no one any good to act as if unnecessary wars like Vietnam or the current Iraq war are for the good of the country, in fact, it does a great amount of harm. If this country had learned its lesson regarding Vietnam, perhaps it would have been less prone to being duped by the idiot in a 10 gallon hat into entering another war which was just as senseless. Until we realize that not all wars are fought for honorable reasons, we're condemning members of the military to die for an unjust cause.

[VPStoltz]

82. Yes, didn't you know? Just like the invasion of Iraq was to protect our life style from Sadam.

[DavidDvorkin]

83. Obviously, I need to spend less time reading history and suchlike

and spend more time worshiping the Stars and Stripes.

[KittyWampus]

126. What a fucked up way to comment on someone who was sent to Vietnam. Boy, you're tough

[Horse with no Name]

84. I take exception to those veterans who say they were shot

defending my rights.
Unless you fought in the Revolutionary War, then no,you did not.

In fact, my "rights" are at risk everyday by anti-abortion fascists and as far as I can tell, nobody on "my" side has taken up arms to protest this infringement on my Constitutional rights.

I will, however, thank you for your service. But until I see my Constitutionally guaranteed rights as well as my GLBT brothers and sisters rights being upheld, then I will certainly pass on the overzealous pro-military imperialistic verbage.

[cherokeeprogressive]

114. So WWII Vets who were wounded were wounded for some other reason than

not only DEFENDING YOUR RIGHTS, but YOUR WAY OF LIFE, YOUR LANGUAGE, AND YOUR CULTURE from the Third Reich?? What might they have been defending?

[brendan120678]

130. What about other wars in which the U.S. was...

attacked / invaded?

War of 1812?
World War 2?

[SammyWinstonJack]

95. Nice guilt trip you tried to lay on that woman.

:eyes:

Lady, I was shot two times in Vietnam defending your right to say that.

You fighting in Vietnam had nothing too do with defending our freedom of speech. :shrug:

Just like these 'wars' in Iraq and Afghanistan have nothing too do with defending our freedom of speech.

Shame you don't realize that.

[superduperfarleft]

97. "A while back a lady stopped her car and told me she was offended by the flags."

Uh-huh. Surrrre.....

[wolfgangmo]

110. Your DI should have made you read the code

enough times that you understood the words.

From your link "The United States Flag Code establishes advisory rules..." Advisory rules, which means that it is not a administrative rule or a law. It has no force but is just advice, kind of like what you get from your drunk uncle Al at family reunions. You can take the advice or you can ignore it, but it is not a law.

It seems that a lot of people don't get that. Civilian don't have to follow military rules and if you don't know why then you really need to go back and chat with your DI. If he is like any DI I know he will shake his head and then explain it to you slowly using small words.

It is a flag. It is his flag. It is on his property and it is being used by him to honor his son. Let the man have that at least.

[Contrary1]

122. I thank you for your service also...

I'm glad you made it back. I had friends who didn't. However; in my opinion, your being shot in Vietnam had nothing to do with protecting my freedom of speech. The same goes for the war in the Middle East.

A bunch of old men got together and decided that sending young men and women off to war would be good for their bank accounts.

Protecting my right to speak? The only war that falls under that category would be the Revolutionary War.

[Bandit]

125. Sorry you were wounded in Vietnam but just how did you defend America or our rights?

You were there to defend South Vietnam not America. America was in no danger of invasion or some Vietnamese taking away any of our rights. I get pretty tired of people saying they were defending my rights during some conflict that was completely unnecessary.

[pscot]

11. You are wrong

The First Amendment trumps the flag. This is a free speech issue. The courts have ruled that you csan burn it. you can certanly fly it 'til it falls to rags, if that's what it takes to make your point.

[Tangerine LaBamba]

13. My opinion is "wrong"?

Get a grip.

You're wrong. How does that sit with you?

There is no such thing as unlimited free speech, and while it may not be law - tell your law professors they failed with you, and ask your Bar association to revoke your license - there are rules about how our flag is to be treated.

Man, that was a dumb response on your part......................................

[robinlynne]

20. rules, not laws!! big difference. You are WRONG.

[Huskerchub]

45. NO, sorry, YOU are wrong.

Previous to Flag Day, June 14, 1923 there were no federal or state regulations governing display of the United States Flag. It was on this date that the National Flag Code was adopted by the National Flag Conference which was attended by representatives of the Army and Navy which had evolved their own procedures, and some 66 other national groups. This purpose of providing guidance based on the Army and Navy procedures relating to display and associated questions about the U.S. Flag was adopted by all organizations in attendance.

A few minor changes were made a year later during the Flag Day 1924 Conference. It was not until June 22, 1942 that Congress passed a joint resolution which was amended on December 22, 1942 to become Public Law 829; Chapter 806, 77th Congress, 2nd session. Exact rules for use and display of the flag (36 U.S.C. 173-178) as well as associated sections (36 U.S.C. 171) Conduct during Playing of the National Anthem, (36 U.S.C. 172) the Pledge of Allegiance to the Flag, and Manner of Delivery were included.

The code is the guide for all handling and display of the Stars and Stripes. It does not impose penalties for misuse of the United States Flag. That is left to the states and to the federal government for the District of Columbia. Each state has its own flag law.

[blondeatlast]

62. Corpus Juris Secundum tends to disagree here:

CJS FLAG § 3 § 3. Laws regulating flags
Approx. 1 page

Federal statutory provisions cover the design of the United States flag, as well as its display and use. The Federal Flag Code, however, is MERELY ADVISORY and is not intended to proscribe conduct. Moreover, a federal statute codifying existing rules and customs for the display and use of the American flag by civilians does not deprive the states of the power to regulate the conduct of state citizens toward the flag when such conduct is likely to produce a breach of the peace within their borders. Therefore, a state statute prohibiting the public desecration of the flag, which conduct is likely to produce a breach of the peace, is not invalid as regulatory of subject matter within a field occupied by congressional legislation. However, a state is without power to prohibit flag desecration based merely on interest in preserving loyalty or patriotism, in the absence of interest in preventing breaches of the peace.

(all emphasis mine)

I'm not sure where your info came from but I'm pretty sure that Corpus Juris Secundum trumps it.

No link--this is from my subscription.

[SleeplessInAlabama]

121. But it is YOU who is wrong!

They passed a joint resolution. A joint resolution means next to nothing. There was a brief and unsuccessful push to officially honor Michael Jackson through a resolution recently. And we actually pay these people tax dollars to sit around and do this crap.

Since we're using wikipedia:

"In the United States, acts of Congress are designated as either public laws, relating to the general public, or private laws, relating to specific institutions or individuals."

They passed an act of Congress, a joint resolution that determined "exact rules" (which is the beginning of the very next sentence in your post!) for the "handling and respect" of the flag. It's not going anywhere in a court.

edit: spelling

[Tangerine LaBamba]

52. No -

I'm perfectly correct. Just my opinion.

And perhaps you're correct, too, but if you don't understand the history of our flag, and what it means, then I refuse to enter into a battle of wits against the unarmed...................

[blondeatlast]

64. Supporting you, see post 62. I kinda think Corpus Juris Secundum trumps Wikipedia. nt

[blondeatlast]

41. It's protocol, not law. ENORMOUS difference. Go ahead, challenge it in court

ans let's see how far you get with that.

[Name removed]

53. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[blondeatlast]

63. Sure, whatever you say. My info comes from the United States Code, via Corpus Juris Secundum.

Something the Freeps are eminently familiar with.

You funny, TL. :rofl:

[Tangerine LaBamba]

65. Then read the case law,

and make sure you read the legislative history. All those facets are required in order to have a full and complete understanding.

Clearly, you can google, but you're not good at legal research.

Things have more than one reference, blonde, and you're even funnier....................

[blondeatlast]

68. Nice try--do you even know what CJS is?

It's a compendium of decisions on case law annotated by the nation's most respected jurists in the field. But okay--your Wikipedia entry trumps it.

As I say--you funny.

[blondeatlast]

70. So I take it, you, like me, have WestLaw running in the background at this very moment.

I'm briefing a fraud case as we type...

[lonestarnot]

118. Snort....

I guess not. :hi:

[pscot]

54. The Supreme Court disagrees with you

This is from Wikipedia:

"The first federal Flag Protection Act was passed by Congress in 1968 in response to protest burnings of the flag at demonstrations against the Vietnam War.<10> Over time, 48 of the 50 U.S. states also enacted similar flag protection laws. All of these statutes were overturned by the Supreme Court of the United States by a 5-4 vote in the case Texas v. Johnson, 491 U.S. 397 (1989) as unconstitutional restrictions of public expression.

After the Johnson decision, Congress quickly passed a new Flag Protection Act, which was also struck down by the Supreme Court the following year by the same 5-4 majority in the case United States v. Eichman, 496 U.S. 310 (1990). The Court decided that expression through flag burning was constitutionally protected."

[Tangerine LaBamba]

61. Flag burning -

Can you read that part? It's about protected political speech, not a personal timetable.

Jeez, the inability to read here is seriously disturbing............................

[Posteritatis]

131. Opinions can be, and indeed often are, wrong, yes. (nt)

[EOTE]

134. Not only is your opinion wrong, but your facts are wrong too.

You're just all around wrong. If this man were breaking a law, he could be forced to comply with it or be arrested. There is nothing this man could be arrested for. I'm pretty sure that burning a flag under protest is against the code regarding the handling of the United States Flag, yet it's already been determined that you can't be arrested for it. Once again, what you fail to grasp is that the flag is a symbol, it might be a rather significant symbol, but it's a symbol none-the-less. The things that the flag stands for, such as the freedom to do whatever the hell you want with it, for example, are far more important than the flag itself. Funny how some people think the flag is so much more important than the things it stands for.

[Mariana]

18. It's also a property rights issue.

An individual who owns a flag gets to decide what's to be done with it. No one else has a right to interfere.

They may, of course, express their opinions about what he does with his flag.

[Wizard777]

42. Your flag is actually the property of the US Department of State.

Your mailbox is actually the property of the US Postal Service. You've paid for both but do not actually "own" either one. No property rights issues.

[tabasco]

48. LOL.

Stupidest thing I've read today.

So far.

[Wizard777]

85. That was in something I had read about the Secretary of State being the keeper of the flag -

and great seal. If we admit a new state. It's the responsibility of the Secretary of State to have the star representing that state added to all the new flags. But the flag is owned by the US Government. It is also a trademark of the United States. Title 4, Chapter 1, Section 5 of US Code authorizes civilian display and use of the flag. But nothing in that even infers or eludes to ownership of the flag by civilians. The rest of Title 4 Chapter 1, tells you how to properly handle, use, display, care for and dispose of this piece of government property civilians are authorized to use or display. Granted it's constructionism. But I think it would hold up to strict scrutiny.

[Mariana]

92. Nothing in Title 4, Chapter 1 says the State Department

or the US Government owns everybody's flags. It doesn't say or imply that individuals own their flags, but neither does it imply that they don't. Please point me toward a reference for the assertion that the Department of State or any Government entity owns all copies of the flag. Thanks.

[Wizard777]

93. I've done more to prove my assertion than you have to prove yours.

As I said it is from constructionism. Just like we enjoy some rights that are not Specifically mentioned in the US Constitution. If you read the laws governing the flag. In the sentence structure any positions of ownership or possessives are occupied by "United States." It is what is called an implied ownership. So I'll ask you this. If YOU own your flag. Why would they pass a law that authorizes you to use or display that flag you own? Pardon the pun but that kind of flies in the face of property rights. I own MY garden gnome. I need no law to authorize my display or use of it. Because it's MY property. Now if you can produce something that specifically says you own your flag. I'll concede my point. But until then my constructionism will stand. You too are relying upon Constructionism. But your is an unwritten constructionism. At least mine is based on written law. I think I have done far more to prove my position that you have done to prove yours. I think the better part of the law supports my position.

How ever it would very interesting to see a case go before the courts as destruction of Government property as opposed to desecration of the flag. That would definitely settle our dispute. Because the government would be asserting a trademark ownership of the flag in that case. Until then I guess we'll have to agree to disagree.

[blondeatlast]

50. Prove it, please. nt

[Mariana]

80. No answer. And you even said the magic word.

I'm shocked.

[Wizard777]

87. Sorry for the delay. Some of us actually have a life.

[Wizard777]

86. See above post.

[Mariana]

51. I'm aware that the mailbox is USPS property

as long as it's being used to receive mail.

I'd never heard of flags being State Department property. That's very interesting. Can you point me toward where I can read more about that? I've had no luck finding anything with Google. Thanks.

[lonestarnot]

119. Mine isn't.!

[Hissyspit]

25. "Long-standing rules." So?

"Our flag is special that way." Bullshit.

[uppityperson]

30. He is showing complete disrespect? wtf? His kid is in Iraq

Keeping the same flag up until he comes home is showing how long his kid has been gone, what he has suffered through.

Good lord. Shame on you

[Th1onein]

36. And how much respect is our government showing his son, who is willing to give his life?

This man ought to be able to fly his flag until it disintegrates. That's his SON. As far as respect goes, HE is owed respect for what his son is doing, not vice versa. I've never thought that respect for an inanimate object shoud outweigh respect for human life and I never will, no matter if it's "our" flag or not.

[OwnedByFerrets]

47. You have never been more wrong....

but, it is your right to be so.

[tkmorris]

58. That flag is no more special than any other

Hyper-patriotic jingoism notwithstanding.

[EmilyAnne]

99. So in other words, you are NOT the first to advocate free speech in all its forms.

In fact, you actually oppose free speech in some forms.

Just clearing that up for you.

[fascisthunter]

105. lol... do you get outraged when the flag is used to sell products?

[varelse]

3. One man even left a brand-new flag on the porch.

Unless he has a son or daughter in Iraq or Afghanistan, he hardly has the right to comment. Let him fly his own brand-new, made-in-China, astroturf symbol of phony patriotism and leave the true patriots in peace until their son comes home (hopefully alive and well).

[kestrel91316]

4. A tattered, abandoned American flag hung at a closed Chevron station

near my office for over a year and nobody gave a damn. That was offensive. RWers sure have some fucked up priorities.

[MADem]

5. Sounds like a very plain example of protest to me. nt

[virginia mountainman]

6. If he wants to fly it, he should at least REPAIR it...

And keep it presentable, at least sew up the rips.

I understand his views on this, but the flag still should be taken care of.

[robinlynne]

21. if he wants to. then he should. I don't see him telling you what to do with your front porch.

[annabanana]

8. This flag, to this father, represents his fidelity to his son. How dare anyone

take this powerful symbol away from him.

The flag is ALWAYS a symbol. If it is anything other than a SYMBOL it is nothing more than a fetish.

[uppityperson]

31. exactly. He is flying this for his son who is in Iraq.

[blondeatlast]

43. And it can be a powerful metaphor for what is happening to his son. He may walk and talk

and breathe when he returns from Iraq, but I doubt he'll be the same person he was when he left--just like that beautiful flag (yes, in its way, it IS beautiful, IMO).

[Forkboy]

10. Good on him, and screw the phony patriots.

[arcadian]

12. What Forkboy said...

+1

[pleah]

28. ...

:toast:

[blondeatlast]

44. +1. nt

[JI7]

89. yup, the flag is more important than the life of an American

[SammyWinstonJack]

96. +1

:thumbsup:

[fascisthunter]

106. danke

[cherokeeprogressive]

115. In your mind, what separates a "phony patriot" from a "real patriot"?

Enquiring minds want to know.

[Forkboy]

124. Someone who gets that the flag is a symbol, and that what it symbolizes is bigger than a flag.

[undeterred]

19. It wouldn't bother me.

Right now I think the tattered flag is appropriate.

[orleans]

22. so then i guess the neighbors will be relieved to know the kid is finally coming home n/t

[Odin2005]

23. Assholes!

And shame on the DUers joining in attacking this guy. Free Speech is FREE SPEECH, period, no exceptions.

[Tangerine LaBamba]

60. You're serious?

Do you honestly think free speech is unrestricted?

Really?

You believe that?

You have a lot to learn....................

[Odin2005]

69. I Might like what you like to say but I defend to the death your right to say it.

Censorship is a slippery slope to a police state and the politicization of knowledge, when you start restricting information when does it end?

[AngryOldDem]

24. I see flags like this flying all the time....

...because people are just too damned lazy to replace them.

And there is uproar over THIS?

[Chulanowa]

26. Righto. At least this guy has a thought-out reason

I've seen so many fucked-up flags stemming from laziness and idiocy that even if I were one of those flag-fetishists, I'd be able to make an exception in this case, if only to focus on people who's flags are fucked from neglect or idiocy.

[pleah]

29. K&R I support him 100%. n/t

[GoldenOldie]

33. How many of the "neighbors," have dropped by to thank the son or father???

My Army grandson who was on leave for a week this summer after spending a year in Mosul and will be re-deployed to Iraq in December commented during one our talks stated, "the people (Americans) just don't care what is really happening." He has come home from a bloody battlefield to find everyone going about their life as though events in Iraq and Afghanistan mean nothing to them. He is also being treated for PTSD and is one very angry young man. The neighbors seem to care more about the flag than they do about the feelings of a father whose son is in harms way and his continual deployments increase the odds.

[pleah]

37. Exactly.

And thank your Grandson for me, even though I don't support the wars.

[blondeatlast]

109. I was very young during Viet Nam, but I remember my parents being very

aware of what was happening there. We saw it every night on the news--tight from the battlefield. In 30 minutes, we knew more about the world than we do now in an entire month of watching 24 hour news channels. We knew nobody who went to Viet Nam--and yet, we felt the pain of every death.

IThe corporate media has done more to destroy the US than anyone else.

[boppers]

35. For this, an exception should be made.

I hope that his son comes home in one piece, and helps his father properly burn that flag (flags should never be thrown in the garbage, the proper form of disposal is respectful incineration).

Maybe if he put up a plaque, explaining why it's so tattered, and still flying, the busybodies would STFU.

[lunatica]

39. To me it's just a symbol

with no inherent value of its own to make it some sort of sacrosanct piece of cloth. And as a symbol it also stands for everything this country has done wrong as well as everything it's done right.

But it doesn't mean the same thing to everyone. The man flying this flag is using it to symbolize some sort of personal statement about his country and his son who is serving the country. I see much more value in what the son is doing than in a piece of cloth. And if the father wants to fly it till there's nothing left that's his business because that piece of cloth is his.

I never understood why a symbol can mean so much more than that which it symbolizes.

[GoneOffShore]

74. Best response I've read on this thread.

Too much hysteria is attached to "The Flag".

All my European friends cannot understand how Americans have invested so much emotion and passion in what is ultimately, a piece of cloth despite its symbolism.

[bridgit]

46. people should just let it be ~

[YoungAndOutraged]

71. If only some people cared about other human beings as much as they do a flag

Maybe the world would be much better than it is right now.

[SammyWinstonJack]

98. +1

:thumbsup:

[kimmylavin]

78. I'm with him 100%

Small, simple statement that serves as a protest, a powerful symbol, and a sad timetable.

And to those getting all bent out of shape about this, because of the sanctity of the flag, what did you think about the September 11th flag being paraded all over the place? I had no problem with that, myself, but I'm wondering if it affected your sensibilities?

[donheld]

81. He should buy and hang new flag like this

[Echo In Light]

101. Apropos

[BobTheSubgenius]

91. I guess this is a real non sequitur, but I live in Victoria, BC - quite a tourist destination.

When a cruise ship or two docks at Ogden Point, there is almost always some really interesting behaviour......and more interesting questions.

"Does your flag come in other colours?"

"Why don't you carry Olympic inukshuks in red, white and blue?"

For some reason, I was reminded of these two by this stupid, stupid discussion. Spit in their eye and carry on, Louis Haros.

[Blue_Tires]

102. lol

i do know a lot of young americans covet the 'unofficial' stoner flag, i.e. the Canadian flag that is green instead of red...

[Wizard777]

94. That kinda looks like the Flag that flew over Ft. Mc Henry.

The flag our National Anthem was written about. It's a ripped and torn tattered mess compared to a new flag. They aren't even trying to restore it. They are simply trying to preserve it in it's present condition. I guess that flag too has a history that the family is not willing to part with. Good for them!

[newspeak]

104. this is a symbolic gesture for this father

his son has done three tours of duty in Iraq--three tours in a conflict we were lied into. In Vietnam, it was two tours and you were done, but these soldiers are being used and sent to three, four and five tours. The father is not taking down this particular flag until his son comes home, it's his symbol, his commitment to his son. With all of the patriotic furor under the * administration--I've seen all of these small made in China flags flapping on autos with "Support the Troops" magnetic ribbons--I've seen numerous fluttering auto flags filthy, tattered and still attached to the vehicles. Do you really think people are going up to these vehicles and asking them to replace their tattered flags? I doubt it!!!!

I'd say people might want to be more upset at the American flag used as a symbol for commercialism. I mean I can go to an auto dealership and there are American flags fluttering everywhere. Now, do you think they are displayed for patriotism or to sell you something? And, I believe the flag is not to be used for commercialism.

This flag is a symbol for his son's return and I have very little respect for neighbors who stick their noses in his business.

This reminds me of a story that happened to me about six years ago--now my daughter is serving in the military. Well, I donated to the boy scouts, but told them I didn't want a flag in my yard--they put one in my front yard anyway. Well, they stuck it in the ground and the wind blew it over, so I leaned it against the house to get it off the ground and so they could collect it. A man came to my door, yelling at me that I was disrespecting the flag, and blah, blah, blah. I told him my daughter was in the military and patriotism is not defined in how you treat a piece of material but how you sacrifice for your country.

[fascisthunter]

107. considering how f'ed this country is, I'd say the tattered flag was appropriate

a symbol of our how tattered the fabric of this nation really is.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

108. "Flags are bits of colored cloth that governments use first to shrink-wrap people's brains

"Flags are bits of colored cloth that governments use first to shrink-wrap people's brains and then as ceremonial shrouds to bury the dead." - Arundhati Roy

[Gin]

112. I think he should replace it with one that isn't tattered....he can keep

the tattered one as some sort of symbolic statement... but it should not be flying...that is my humble opinion...I just think that if you are going to fly the flag....it should be in good condition.....

by the way...trucks and cars flying tattered flags irritate me too.


and............. I think flags flying in the wind look beautiful..

[noamnety]

120. he should fly the flag whatever way he wants to fly it

If his son is in Iraq, I highly doubt he cares if the thought of his flag irritates you. He has bigger concerns in the world than the people who are obsessing about matters of protocol.

I keep imagining some of his neighbors in different scenarios - like being proposed to in a fancy restaurant, the guy getting down on one knee and presenting a ring he could barely afford, getting all choked up with the proposal, and the woman responding with "Were you aware you used the wrong fork for your salad?"

[SaraBellum]

116. As the mother of a soldier currently serving in Iraq

I wish I had seen this months ago, I would have done the same thing. A powerful message could be sent if ALL military families did this. No more invisible war.

[cherokeeprogressive]

117. Fuck the flag. Fuck American Citizens for thinking it has any value whatsoever.

And FUCK the United Nations for playing along with the stupid game of repesenting countries with pieces of colored cloth. In the case of the United States, a SHITTY piece of cloth, which the American Flag that flew in front of the UN building would literally be if I could get my hands on it. You know the one, it's got fifty stars and thirteen stripes... What the fuck does that mean, anyway? I'd wipe my ass with it after shitting on the steps of the Capitol Building. Then I'd wrap my shit in it and place it on the steps of the White House (Simple symbol of imperialism for simple people) after lighting it on fire, hoping that the corporate puppet who lived there would come out in his robe in the middle of the night and stomp it out.

Burn it. Rip it. Piss on it. Fly it upside down. Denigrate it in any way possible. Then buy another one and do the same thing. Show the rest of the world how much disdain I have for it.

While we're at it, why don't we burn down the White House, which is simply another symbol of an imperialistic country who has fucked the world to the point of no return until white men's sperm literally drips from it.

Yeah, that's the ticket! That'll show those stupid Americans who think their symbols are something more than evidence of how they've fucked the world! Then we can finally wash our hands of *!

:sarcasm:

[LooseWilly]

123. Big fan of the Trail of Tears, too?

I read that the Military did a wonderful job with that, too...

:applause:


:sarcasm:

:+

[B3Nut]

132. It's an artistic political statement

and an eloquent, heart-rending, and gut-wrenching one at that. The freeper-types are too jingoistic and shallow to have the guts to face what they've been cheerleading. Most of the "duh-merican sheeple" don't want to be bothered with this, it interferes with their god-damned "reality TV" too much.

The ravages the elements are inflicting upon that flag are a stark analog of how our soldiers serving over there are being ravaged by the repeated tours in a conflict into which they were sent based on lies, for the benefit of Big Business.

Todd in Cheesecurdistan