I think children should not be required to listen to a politician talk in school.

[daedalus_dude]

I like Obama and would want my child to hear him talk.

I would have been utterly pissed if the school tried to force my child to listen to the chimp.

[FLDCVADem]

1. I agree

I think parents should always have an opt-out.

[MNDemNY]

3. I think a lot of parents need to opt their head out of their ass.

[flyingfysh]

6. I disagree

American history is full of politicians, each of whom were considered controversial in their time: FDR, Truman, Nixon, Wilson, Lincoln, Jefferson, etc. Are we to have selective opt-outs of speeches (or recreated speeches) of all of these? A speech by a sitting president is history in the making. Students need to learn how to evaluate these people. Just because they hear a speech, it doesn't mean the student is automatically convinced or anything.

[FLDCVADem]

8. I think that for any politician

yes, there should be opt-outs. While I can't imagine exercising such an option after a certain age, I certainly believe the option should be there.

[MNDemNY]

11. +1

:toast:

[MNDemNY]

2. An address from the POTUS is hardly "a politician talking"

[Kerrytravelers]

4. This wasn't a political speech. It was a back to school pep talk.

I don't know why more Presidents other than Reagan, Bush part I and Obama haven't done this.

[Hannah Bell]

24. i'm not comfortable with the president giving a back to school pep talk directed specifically to

all US schoolchildren.

i suspect more presidents haven't done it because it smells of big brotherism.

[Kerrytravelers]

36. Are you serious? Big Brotherism?

Have you read 1984? The President of the United States, regardless of political affiliation, encouraging American school children to do well in school is not what Big Brother is about, especially if you'd read 1984. Engaging children with their country and their government isn't Big Brother. Quite frankly, use of terms like Big Brother, Fascist, Nazi, Orwellian, etc. have become overused to the point that those words no longer carry the same meaning they once did.

[Hannah Bell]

39. the current message is irrelevant. i dislike the president giving national-level

speeches directed specifically to schoolchildren.

i've read 1984. i've read everything orwell wrote, in fact. we disagree on the implications.

[Kerrytravelers]

45. Then you would know what Big Brother was... and the President, any President, speaking to school

children is by no stretch of the imagination Big Brotherism.

That anyone would go straight to the dramatics of "Big Brother" from a Back to School pep talk by a President just completely boggles the mind. This just further solidifies to me that words are simply losing their meaning. But hey, if you want to run around, wearing yourself out looking for the "Big Brotherism" in everything, God's speed to 'ya. You're going to be running in a ton of pointless circles, but hey, it's still a free country, even with "Big Brother" giving school children Back to School pep talks. :rofl:

[Hannah Bell]

50. as i said, we disagree.

[Kerrytravelers]

51. It really isn't about disagreeing.

It's about the meaning of words. I'm always fascinated by the use words without heed to their meanings.

[Hannah Bell]

62. which word would that be?

[Kerrytravelers]

65. Clearly, you didn't read my earlier responses to you.

I'm not interested in going in countless circles and creating an endless subthread if you're not reading posts. It's a waste of my time.

[Hannah Bell]

68. clearly, you don't want to tell me exactly which word i don't understand the

meaning of.

[Kerrytravelers]

71. Well, you called Obama Orwellian by using the word "Big Brother."

Which hardly fits a Back to School pep talk. And I stated that above. And you know that, especially because of the picture you put in your response post. If you really equate telling kids to have a great year, to do their best and to try hard to the story of 1984 and Big Brother, then that's on you. Quite frankly, it's pure silly. And I'd say the same thing if Bush had given the same Back to School pep talk and anyone had called that Big Brotherism and Orwellian. It's the same thing with people who call Bush a Nazi. When words that hold specific and direct meanings are overused and misused, it takes away from the power of what the word means. I've done that and when called on it, I realize that I am being careless with my words. Maybe it's the English teacher in me, but I am specific with how words are used. If you really think that Obama's hip-hip-hurrah pep talk to school kids is Orwellian, then all I can do is shake my head and walk away, happy that I don't have the same cyncinal feelings.

And I must be honest with you, I really have no intention of continuing going back and forth any longer. It's a waste of time. I've stated my opinion, it isn't going to change, and all that is bound to happen is a nasty subthread that doesn't need to happen.





Edited for spelling

[Hannah Bell]

72. here's what i said: "suspect more presidents haven't done it because it smells of big brotherism."

a president giving a national level "pep talk" specifically addressed to schoolchildren in their classrooms has a number of orwellian/big brotherist overtones.

the fact that you can't see them doesn't mean they're not there or that i don't know the meaning of the words. you think there are no such overtones because your judgment is that obama & his policies = "good".

imo, it doesn't matter; the overtones are there regardless.

if you don't want to go back & forth, stop. i also "stated my opinion" long ago. you're the one who felt the need thereafter to diss my personal verbal comprehension.

now go ahead, have the last word. you know you want to.

[Hannah Bell]

63. we disagree. as i said. but your little rolly guy doesn't make your argument

any stronger.

[Kerrytravelers]

66. It wasn't meant to make it stronger. Emoticons are used to express emotions in an online forum.

And yes, I think looking for Big Brother in every corner is hysterical. :rofl:

More endless circles, I see.

[Hannah Bell]

69. the circles are your own. the emotion expressed is puerile.

[Kerrytravelers]

70. Ok. Whatever makes you happy.

:rofl:

[Dogtown]

67. You're not comfortable with a Democrat as President

Admit it and move on.

[bemildred]

5. Not even for History class? nt

[notadmblnd]

7. Did you feel the same way when the little monkey was pretzledenting around?

and why weren't you here then bitching about it? I've lived with and around African Americans all my life, it doesn't rub off when they talk to you. In fact, you can sleep in the same bed with them and you'll still wake up white.

Really, I don't know what some people's problem is?

[Hannah Bell]

25. did bush give a speech specifically directed to all US schoolkids?

i don't remember that.

i don't accept your assumption that criticism of obama = racism.

[notadmblnd]

61. many times..... up close and personal.

If I recall correctly, he was sitting in a elementary school classroom while the World Trade Center was coming down and thousands of American lives were being lost. Then he was rushed off to hide while darth cheney called the shots.

[Hannah Bell]

64. i'm not talking about visiting classrooms. i'm talking about giving a speech

addressed to every schoolkid in the US.

[notadmblnd]

74. what would the difference be?

In fact, wouldn't the man actually being in the class room make it even more dangerous for the children?

Now tell me, do you moan and complain when the Gideons stand outside your child's school and hand out Bibles?

[Raschel]

34. "pretzledenting "

:rofl:

Great post.

[Lone_Star_Dem]

9. Children should be isolated from politics then?

I strongly disagree. I let my daughter meet and speak with Bush, even though I didn't like him. Why? I thought it would be a great tale for her to tell to the grandkids someday, "When I was a little girl I actually met the man in person they now call "The Worst President Ever."

My daughter and I watched events unfold in the world around us and discussed how the world leaders decisions impacted the events. Raising a child is the process of creating a strong, intelligent adult capable of dealing with the events which take place in the world around them correctly. I fail to see how you can do that if you don't let them be exposed to politics.

[daedalus_dude]

12. Still. It shouldn't be mandatory.

I can see how it would have went with bush. Some people would have wanted their kids to stay home, just so they could "boycott" bush. Then others would have called them traitors and such. I just rather have it that such things should not be forced on people. I don't say I would have kept my child home because they were showing bush in school, but I would still be pissed if there was not opt-out. How is to guarantee that the class would have not turned into one big pro-republican brainwashing session. Then again, in such an event changing schools would probably be a good idea anyway.

[seabeyond]

14. yes, education of ALL sorts should eb mandatory and demanded.

critical and open thinking is a GOOD thing

[Kerrytravelers]

20. I have no doubt that some would have done the same to Bush.

Why should this childishness be the standard that is set? These people should be seen as exactly what they are- extreme and foolish. Why should the rest of this country accommodate to the stupidity? If someone wants to be foolish and extreme, let them take the extra steps on their own. Making everything optional so we only get to hear what we want only serves to coddle and further divide.

[Lone_Star_Dem]

22. Of course it should be mandatory in a public school

To say otherwise is insanity. Civics are not something which can be covered in a two term class in HS. This blinders on approach is one of the very reasons we're in the situation we are today in this country. We're a painfully undereducated population that is far too easily swayed by the media that feeds us what we're supposed to think, feel and do. Which is a direct result of our lack of critical thinking skills as a society.

[Kerrytravelers]

38. Excellent post. I am mortified that a pep talk is even a topic for discussion.

[Lone_Star_Dem]

60. I've been equally mortified, I assure you.

It was a message our children deserve to hear and even needed to hear. How this can be viewed as a bad thing is beyond my realm of comprehension.

[OneGrassRoot]

47. +100 n/t

[seabeyond]

10. what is wrong with you parents so very afraid for children to be exposed to diverse thinking

i totally oppose your position. i am not so very afraid my children will be zombified regardless of what it is. they have been raised in an environment of self thinking and not much of anything anyone says will unduly influence them without thorough thought and fact checking on their part

since being very little they ahve been taught to recognize the conditioning all of society puts on them, even family. i would say parenting, but i refuse and work very hard for them to take even what i say and think it thru

i embrace all differing view being givin to my children. especially in a safe environment of academics where thought is explored

i hear the fear in so many subjects and i think that is just so wrong

i am not so very fearful for my kids and trust them a whole lot more than what other parents are willing ot do

[Hannah Bell]

27. "stay in school" = diverse thinking?

[seabeyond]

30. two subjects going on. of course obamas speech was not political. which is the stupid

in not wanting to have your child here it. rah rah schoool. no no, my child cant hear that. yes. simply. that is stupid

but the op i was responding to was implying it was some way political. for a politician to talk to students in an academic environment.... or to talk politics in school. that is what i was responding to.

[Hannah Bell]

37. I don't think it's the president's role to give pep talks to school kids.

& I don't like the idea of presidents giving speeches specifically to "all schoolchildren".

it IS political. The message in this case may be innocuous, but the precedent isn't.

[seabeyond]

41. no, it is not political. there was NO politics in it. and of course it is the role of our pres

to address the kids.

they sit in schools and let kids show off. it can be a good thing for the kids. it can be a positive thing for the kids

it is a lesson though, regardless good or bad. and then it is dinner table conversation with family. it is living in an environment of open minded, critical thinking, outside the box.

all healthy and good things.

[Hannah Bell]

44. i disagree.

[noamnety]

56. Well, no, that's not "the role of the president."

It's the executive branch, so the role is to implement and enforce the laws congress writes, and be CinC of the military.

If you look at the constitution, being a motivational speaker for school children, or even being a role model for kids, is not the Role of the President.

[spanone]

13. it's the President of the United States..

[Dogtown]

15. Bullshit, d_dude.

Should you be able to choose if your child is taught about the works of Mark Twain?

Individual parents tailoring subject matter taught by schools is impossible and frivolous.

Any address made by the POTUS directly to students is a "current events" subject that most certainly should be *required* by all public school systems.

My son is an adult, but he was perceptive enough to have seen Bush as the lying military adventurer he was, and it's most appropriate that he learn to discern political lies as well as political truth. The schools gave him information, I helped him learn to process that information.

Only people wishing to mandate what their children think would censor their education. Unfortunately, they can. Not one kid in my subdivision goes to public school. Every one of them is home-schooled by parents without college educations, much less teaching certification.

[Jennicut]

16. I would have no issue with my daughter hearing any President speak

It was not a political speech. If Chimp had spoken about staying in school it would be hypocritical for me to say the message is horrible because it came from Chimp...its still a good message.

[nadinbrzezinski]

17. If the speech the chimp gave was on the same vein as yesterday's sure why not?

The Chimp was the worst POTUS ever, but if he wants to encourage the little tykes to listen to their teachers and do their homework, I am all for that.

Oh wait, the parrots have been spouting the Communist Manifesto all morning... I think the speech had some code. RUN

[Kerrytravelers]

40. Bwwwaaahhhhh. {{snort}} bwwaahhhhh... lol

:rofl:

[nadinbrzezinski]

49. Well thank you, I'll be here all week

Now they moved to Hegel and the Dialectic

:-)

[Soylent Brice]

18. you remind me of pnutbutr...

[janx]

43. I remember pnutbutr!

:rofl:

[Soylent Brice]

58. yeah,

everyday you read someone's posts and wonder how the fuck they're still here. first person i thought of.

[FLDCVADem]

59. I don't know who pnutbutr is n/t

[Cosmocat]

19. I disagree strongly ... in fact, the opposite is true ...

As much as I despised the knucklehead, I would not have had a problem if Bush had been to my child's school.

I am of the opinion that any time a politician goes to a school it is a GOOD THING.

Our kids are so detached from the political system, that this is part of the problem with younger people not voting. Frankly, it would do them a world of good to any elected official, school board members, boro councilmen, commissioners, ROW officers, state legislators in schools on a regular basis.

[Taitertots]

21. Politicians don't belong in the class room

Politics don't belong in the class room.

You can't have politicians giving unquestioned political speeches to children. It is a PR stunt.

[gatorboy]

26. Well looks like we lost another one to a lousy edumacation...

[Cha]

32. Hey genius!

It was a speech on education and preparing for your future. Only a fucking idiot would be afraid of that.

[FLyellowdog]

23. In case you haven't noticed,

Barack Obama is the President of the United States...that trumps "politician" at this point in time. :crazy:

[Hansel]

28. I would agree if Obama delivered a political speech

He did not.

[david13]

29. Once he was elected, he was no longer 'a politician', he is now

the President of the United States, and all students should hear and study his words.
dc

[yost69]

31. I don't see this as a politician talk, it was a speech about students education.

Furthermore, the speech wasn't that bad. He only put the kids down once that I am aware of by telling them that they most likely would not become a rock star or a pro athlete. I personally think he should have kept that part out of his speech but hey, I am certainly not him. To each their own.

[Kerrytravelers]

42. I didn't see this as a put-down, but a dose of reality.

I had a student once who was so convinced he was going to be a star NFL quarterback. He was 80 pounds dripping wet. And the laziest kid on the planet, as were his parents. He wasn't even on a football team! This kid wasn't being realistic. If you have a goal, you need to be realistic and plan for that goal. Telling children that they need to focus on their education and be open to all things is a dose of reality.

[depakid]

33. How about simply banning civics classes altogether....

Oh, wait....

[Kerrytravelers]

46. I think we're seeing the effects of that.

:rofl:

[TheKentuckian]

35. Seven or eight months into his vacation only the fringe of the fringe's fringe would make a stink

and even in hindsight it would still be lame and childish to pull kids out of a speech by the President (even if he is just the pResident).

If you have produce rugrats that have such poor thinking skills and discernment to be brainwashed by a little speech (even a political one like Reagans stump speech) then you are a failed parent and have MUCH bigger problems than any possible indoctrination because your kid (yes even a primary school kid) is fucking stupid and probably always will be.

Your children (with your guidance and participation) ought to be able to handle fairly complex issues at a young age, even if you might have to kind of boil things down a bit. Your kids should be up for all comers. If not then you have sheltered them too much or they lack much even potential for capacity. Kids aren't stupid and shouldn't be used to protest.

Further, I'm would have no problem with kids listening to the Pope or a Mullah, or a Wicca (yes, even in school as long as it was a balance and a variety since that would not violate establishment as I interpret). The more they are exposed to the better they will be and the stronger their actual convictions will be.

[hfojvt]

48. Are we still talking about this?

Now I see how you fly so close to the sun. You wait until night time to do it, so there is no risk.

[Kerrytravelers]

52. This big, controversial non-event sure gets people riled up.

:rofl: Apparently the rw isn't the only one who thinks the President giving a Back to School pep talk is some kind of indoctrination. :rofl:

[Hippo_Tron]

53. He's the President of the United States

Which means that not only is he a politician, but he is also symbolically the leader of our country. Obviously people of the other party don't like that just like we didn't like that under the chimp. But so long as he's not sending an overtly political message then there's no reason that he shouldn't be allowed to address school children.

[treestar]

54. Then Senator Biden spoke at my HS graduation

No one complained, but would you say that was wrong?

It's not like anyone would want to skip graduation.

[Toasterlad]

55. Sadly, I Agree

When I was a boy, the office of the President was respected, even if the man occupying it was not. Growing up in a Democratic household, I absorbed the knowledge that Richard Nixon was a liar and a crook by something very like osmosis; I don't remember either of my parents coming right out and saying that the President of the United States was a criminal, although they certainly believed he was. Yet, they would never think of keeping me home from school if he were speaking, or trying to shield me in any way from a public address the man was giving. He was the President of the United States, and they respected the office, even if they did not respect the man.

Well, it's now much later, many things have changed in this country, and I'm more cynical than my parents ever dreamed of being. I've watched politicians in this country go from glad-handers who made secret deals in back rooms, terrified that the public would find out what they were REALLY up to, to arrogant, strutting, talking-points billboards who don't bother to hide their crimes and unashamedly lie if they are ever called on them. I've seen the last shred of integrity squeezed out of our nation's press some time around the Reagan years, and I've seen the inescapable emergence of a corporate monolith growing more and more disdainful of the ants that work to sustain it, as it leeches more and more freedom from them every day.

Politics, always a dubious - if lucrative - career at best, now disgusts me. I'd be hard pressed to name five politicians for whom I have actual respect. Sadly, this disgust has spread to the offices they hold, as well. I no longer believe that the office of President of the United States is worth honoring, because I no longer believe that anyone who actually intends to change the status quo will ever be allowed to hold that office. The presidency has become just another seat on the Board of Directors, to be filled by someone with an agreeable nature and a certain amount of charm...someone capable of snowing the customers when they call to complain.

My grandmother used to say, as far back, I'm told, as the 1950's: "It doesn't matter which crook gets in." More and more I realize how right she was.

I don't have - nor will I ever have - children. But if I did, I would not want any politician speaking to them. Not because I feared "indoctrination" or whatever ludicrous nonsense the ignorant rednecks were spewing, but because I no longer find politicians admirable people, no matter what they're saying. They're not the kind of people I'd choose to expose my child to.

[quaker bill]

57. Politicians, no. President, Yes.

Different critter.

[LanternWaste]

73. politicians being quoted in history or civics classes...?

I have little to no problems with allowing children access to a wonderful learning opportunity that ofttimes results in discussion and analysis, allowing the students greater understanding of our system. Further, I would find it absurd to deny or censor students from a classroom viewing of politicians throughout the 20th century delivering policy monologues.

Do you also disagree with politicians being quoted in history or civics classes? If not, what is the precise and relevant difference?