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Mandates are essential and the Public Option is essential

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Kurt_and_Hunter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-09-09 02:49 PM
Original message
Mandates are essential and the Public Option is essential
Edited on Wed Sep-09-09 03:08 PM by Kurt_and_Hunter
The plan is the plan is the plan. So Mister President, please stand up for the plan.

The idea has always been a three legged stool. 1. You have to have insurance. 2. Insurers have to insure you. 3. A government run de facto insurance company is set up to apply cost-pressure and handle the many cases where 1 and 2 just don’t get it done.

The three legged stool is not as good as single-payer, of course, but if you start with the requirement that reform be built upon our existing system then it’s about as good as it’s going to get.

Because Obama rejected mandates during the campaign as a campaign tactic many were led to believe they were not necessary. But he was just being political. Everyone, Obama included, knew full well they were necessary and that they would be in ANY plan of this type. (Again, within the “rules” in play, that reform must be built on the existing system and must not obliterate the insurance industry.) The "no mandate" thing was so overtly poltical that I do not count it as a broken promise. Politicians say stuff.

The problem is not a mandate, but a mandate remaining in the context of removing other essential elements.

A three-legged stool requires all three legs to stand. The current debate is low comedy of arguing about which leg(s) should be sawed off. This is like making surgery cheaper by dispensing with anesthesia or skipping the “sewing up the incisions” part.

With the PO on life support many sensibly think the mandate should also go. But remove the public option and the mandates and you are left with insurance reform that would either obliterate the insurance companies or force the government to subsidize them into ongoing profitability. Pre-existing conditions and lengthy terminal illnesses are legitimately expensive and somebody has to pay for them. And since one of the “rules” is that HCR does not obliterate the insurance sector that doesn’t work either. (Politically. Morally, I say the health insurance industry can be obliterated yesterday.)

The thing is we need all three. Different elements advantage and disadvantage different parties for sound reasons.

The individual mandate is not optional. The requirement that insurers insure everyone is not optional. The public option is not optional. Any leg can be replaced by a new leg that achieves exactly the same result, of course, but anything that has precisely the same effect as any leg is, in fact, that leg. (The concept is about function, not nomenclature. A non-mandate that compels universal participation is cool. A private entity that completely fulfills the potential of the public option is cool. But such things don’t seem to exist.)

As Mister Krugman wrote so succinctly on August 1, shortly before the whole debate turned into a side-show…
Health Reform Made Simple

The essence is really quite simple: regulation of insurers, so that they can’t cherry-pick only the healthy, and subsidies, so that all Americans can afford insurance.

Everything else is about making that core work. Individual mandates are a way to prevent gaming of the system by people who don’t sign up until they’re sick; employer mandates a way to hold down the on-budget costs by preventing a rush by employers to drop insurance; the public option a way to create effective competition and hold costs down further.

But what it means for the individual will be that insurers can’t reject you, and if your income is relatively low, the government will help pay your premiums.

That’s it. Any commentator who whines that he just doesn’t understand it is basically saying that he doesn’t want to understand it.

http://krugman.blogs.nytimes.com/2009/08/01/health-reform-made-simple/
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mike_c Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-09-09 02:53 PM
Response to Original message
1. no-- single payer universal health care for all Americans is essential....
Edited on Wed Sep-09-09 03:00 PM by mike_c
Anything else is just another betrayal of the public trust in favor of greed and corporate profits.

Why use a three-legged stool to prop up corporate profits when a one-legged medicate-for-all approach is better?
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ddeclue Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-09-09 02:55 PM
Response to Reply #1
3. +1 HR676 - anything less is bullshit. nt
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Kurt_and_Hunter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-09-09 03:00 PM
Response to Reply #1
5. I agree with you. But the OP is about what is happening to "THE plan", not whether it is optimal
I'm all for single-payer.

Failing that, I am for reform that is not an exploding cigar, which is what any two-legged version of THE plan will be.
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mike_c Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-09-09 03:03 PM
Response to Reply #5
7. but it's a smoke screen that misses the real point altogether....
I mean, I'm in favor of not throwing babies from speeding trucks so I'll support legislation that limits baby-tossing to economy vehicles!

It's dumb. We don't need that three legged stool, so arguing over whether to remove a leg or not is utterly beside the point. We need medicare for all, single payer universal health care.
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Kurt_and_Hunter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-09-09 03:22 PM
Response to Reply #7
8. True, but a one or two legged stool is a NEW disaster
The current thinking is insufficient. I consider it kicking the can down the road.

But I think we are likely to take on a NEW public obligation that private insurers remain profitable. That's my biggest worry.

If they pass "the 80% everyone agrees on" I see it playing out like... "You must insure the sick. The well are not required to be insured. We need you to exist, having no mechanism for insuring the sick ourselves. So we will pay you to insure the sick at whatever price you can dream up."

It risks further entrenching private insurers, making it a backward step from single payer, rather than a side-ways step.





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tosh Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-09-09 02:54 PM
Response to Original message
2. Perfect analogy and spot-on post. nt.
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AzDar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-09-09 02:55 PM
Response to Original message
4. K N R
:kick:
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ixion Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-09-09 03:01 PM
Response to Original message
6. I won't support mandatory insurance. Period.
nt
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johnaries Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-09-09 03:30 PM
Response to Reply #6
9. Can I ask why?
:shrug:
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ixion Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-09-09 03:39 PM
Response to Reply #9
12. because it does nothing to actually solve the problem
which is this: The healthcare industry is a scam. All mandatory insurance does it create a massive windfall for insurance companies, and add cost and misery to the lives of individual citizens.

Nope, I won't support it.
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johnaries Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-09-09 04:00 PM
Response to Reply #12
14. Even with a Public Option? Even if those who can't afford it are
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ixion Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-09-09 04:49 PM
Response to Reply #14
19. It's not about affordability
it's about mandating more cost. I can afford insurance, but I don't like the idea of being forced to buy it, just like I don't like the idea of being forced to buy car insurance or home owner's insurance.

It boils down to corporate welfare, and does not solve the issue: which is a corrupt healthcare system. In fact, it will make the corruption worse.
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MNDemNY Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-09-09 05:35 PM
Response to Reply #19
20. Your car insurance analogy is the closest.
It is for the public good.For you to go uninsured is risk to the public.
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ixion Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-09-09 06:07 PM
Response to Reply #20
23. No, it's not. I can choose to have a car, and thereby choose
to not have car insurance.

I can't choose to have a body...yet.
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johnaries Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-09-09 03:30 PM
Response to Original message
10. Well said! K&R
:kick:
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blue_onyx Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-09-09 03:39 PM
Response to Original message
11. I will not support an indivdual mandate
Forcing people to buy a product is absurd. The only acceptable solution is a single payer system in which taxes are used for the common good (providing health care for all). Telling people who are unemployment or underemployed that they have to buy insurance (which they can't afford in the first place) is insane. I will not vote for Obama or any Democrat who supports a bill that includes the mandate.
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Kurt_and_Hunter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-09-09 03:49 PM
Response to Reply #11
13. Are you assuming no PO?
If everyone were required to have private insurance OR participate in a heavily subsidized government run insurance program, is that the same, in your view?

I agree that a requirement to buy private insurance is grotesque, but a requirement that one participate in a govt. program much less so. (Since I already pay into social security and medicare that I may not live to enjoy, a requirement to participate in a program that benefits me TODAY doesn't feel so abusive.)
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blue_onyx Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-09-09 04:01 PM
Response to Reply #13
15. No
Edited on Wed Sep-09-09 04:01 PM by blue_onyx
I feel this way with or without a public option. Forcing people to pay money that they already can't afford to pay is wrong. Telling people "buy insurance or else" is not an acceptable plan for universal coverage.

Obama said he was against the mandate in the primary which is part of why I preferred him over Hillary. If he goes back on this, I'll be pissed.
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Kurt_and_Hunter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-09-09 04:16 PM
Response to Reply #15
18. We are probably talking about $$$ rather than an over-arching principle
I agree with you 100% that anything that places real burdens on the have-nots is bad. And I'd say that in any policy context, not just HC.

So it becomes a matter of degree of subsidy. Few of us would object to $1/year. All of us would object to $20K/year.

I'm just saying that the concept of mandatory participation in a Govt HC plan isn't intrinsically immoral. Devil meets details, etc..



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MNDemNY Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-09-09 05:40 PM
Response to Reply #15
21. Welcome to the club.
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johnaries Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-09-09 04:05 PM
Response to Reply #11
16. Those who are unemployed will be eligible for Medicaid.
http://money.cnn.com/2009/06/12/news/economy/health_reform_mandates/index.htm

Single-payer would be the best solution, but we aren't going to get it anytime soon. In lieu of that, we need what another poster called the "3-legged stool". 1. a robust Public Option. 2. mandates that private insurers cannot deny coverage. 3. mandate that everyone must be insured. For those who can't afford it have it subsidized or be eligible for Medicaid.
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Bluenorthwest Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-09-09 05:45 PM
Response to Reply #16
22. The article does not say that
It says one proposal suggests opening Medicaid to more people who are near the poverty level. Those people may or may not be among the unemployed, and the unemployed are not always near the poverty level. So that is just not at all correct.
The unemployed are unemployed. So they will often face this: subsidies, then they get a job where they make a tad more, which is taken by reduced subsidies, so they are now making less than when unemployed. Make more, pay more. Getting a raise might wind up being terrible news. Make an extra $100, owe an extra $300.
And that does not even start in on the bigoted nature of the tax law, which will define 'family' and 'houshold' only under Faith Based Office Approved situations.

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lumberjack_jeff Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-09-09 04:07 PM
Response to Original message
17. Very well said. K&R
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PHIMG Donating Member (814 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-09-09 06:22 PM
Response to Original message
24. The only mandate should be MEDICARE for ALL!
Edited on Wed Sep-09-09 06:25 PM by PHIMG
Forcing me to buy a defective product created by some CEO who makes $100 million a year - is reeks of FASCISM -- the view of it as the merger of corporate and state power.

Forcing me to buy a product from the private market that denies me care to make rich people even more rich is bullshit. Forcing me a product that adds 30% to the cost of healthcare is bullshit. Forcing me to buy a product that ties up my doctor in red tape is BULLSHIT.

The Democratic Party is owned by big insurance. It's disgusting. In 10 or 12 years Republican Mitt Romney's healthcare plan became the healthcare plan of the Democratic Party. How did this happen?

Even the the Public Option (which is DOA) was a joke. It was a distraction to get progressives to ignore the SINGLE PAYER SELL OUT and the inclusion of the Individual mandate. Its time for the HCAN and the MOVEON crowd to admit that the've been HAD!

It's time to go back to square one and in 2012 the party platform on healthcare better be - MEDICARE FOR ALL.
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