Would you hire a job applicant who was Home-schooled?

[ThomWV]

Years ago in a job I had it was necessary, from time to time, for me to select people to be hired for the company. When there was a position that needed to be filled I'd head down to the Personnel Office where I'd be given current job applications for review. I'd pick the one's I liked and they'd arrange appointments for interviews and so on.

I had that job for about four years and in that time I never saw an application from anyone who indicated they were 'home schooled'. If I had seen that I would have passed it over faster than a 7th grade drop out.

How about you, would you do the same - reject home schooled applicants out of hand without further consideration? There are certainly examples of well educated children who were home schooled and others who are not but overall how do you feel about home schooling?

[seabeyond]

1. absolutely i would hire homeschool if i thought best applicant. you are suggesting descrimination

if a person throws away an application out of hand, because of the mere fact homeschool.

[ThomWV]

6. Well, back up a moment - how would you know?

If you are looking at an application - a piece of paper - and under the heading Education, its says Home Schooled, then what would make you think they were the best applicant? Remember, this is all comparative, one says "Home Schooled" and the next one says "Anytown High School Graduate" and that is all you know.

[seabeyond]

15. part of interview process. app says grad high school, one says gep

doesnt mean that the one who grad is a better applicant.

[Freddie Stubbs]

57. Education is only one factor -- Employment history is very important

Just because someone went to school doesn't mean that they can hold down a job.

[sense]

125. You know nothing

then, you simply are prejudiced and ignorant.

[Hutzpa]

159. How so??

The poster is actually asking a genuine question and here you are showing yourself
out, did you bumped your head(?) just wondering....

[sense]

208. I was responding to this post:

Well, back up a moment - how would you know?

If you are looking at an application - a piece of paper - and under the heading Education, its says Home Schooled, then what would make you think they were the best applicant? Remember, this is all comparative, one says "Home Schooled" and the next one says "Anytown High School Graduate" and that is all you know.


Have you bumped your head?

Home schooled tells you nothing. There are as many ways to home school as their are home schoolers.

[TxRider]

163. Comparatively

Home schooled kids are better educated than public school kids.. And score 30% or more higher on average.

So unless there was some glaring thing poking out at me, they would go into the pile to be interviewed.

[Ten Bears]

203. cite your source

[TxRider]

212. Here ya go

Here's one let me know if you need 2-3 more..

Rudner, L. M. (1999). Scholastic achievement and demographic characteristics of home school students in 1998. Educational Policy Analysis Archives, 7(8). Retrieved 5/28/07 and earlier from http://epaa.asu.edu/epaa/v7n8/.

[FBaggins]

334. This is generally true... but...

TxRider,

It's almost certainly true that home-school students outperform public school students, and the testing you linked appears to show this (and more recent results show even greater advantage)... BUT it's important to note that we cannot compare "apples to apples" in a comprehensive fashion.

The largest weakness (somewhat handled in the most recent study) is that parents self-select in almost all of these cases. That is... it is to a greater or lesser degree an inadequate sampling. To a lesser degree, there are also concerns about properly norming the sample to account for income and education of the parents.

[sense]

216. I'll cite

http://www.hslda.org/docs/nche/000010/200410250.asp

http://www.mitadmissions.org/topics/apply/homeschooled_applicants_helpful_tips/homeschooled_applicants.shtml

http://www.hslda.org/docs/nche/000000/00000017.asp

http://www.vineyardesigns.com/moms/homeschooling/college_acceptance.shtml

http://www.homeedmag.com/INF/OH/oh_cc.clgadmin.html

http://www.oakmeadow.com/resources/articles/WSJArticle.htm

http://www.post-gazette.com/regionstate/20000501homeschool5.asp

http://www.homeschool.com/articles/LaurelSprings5/default.asp

http://www.homeschool.com/new/faq.asp

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homeschooling#Test_results

[MNDemNY]

11. "Home schoolers" are NOT a protected class. Feel free to dismiss them out of hand.

[seabeyond]

16. i am not into unfair descrimination, regardless. another can feel free.

i would be interviewing for who i feel would be best for position

[paulsby]

31. exactly. just because a form of bigotry is LEGAL doesn't make it morally right

how about judging a person on their merits, not how their parents chose to educate them?

[Orangepeel]

101. You can't interview everyone who applies. Education is a factor to help decide who to interview

Who I interviewed would depend on what the job was and the number and relative quality of the applicants. I wouldn't dismiss "homeschooled" out of hand, unless there was nothing else on the resume (I would dismiss "high school graduate" with nothing else on the resume out of hand, too).

But all else equal, I'd definitely prefer a somewhat more objective assessment of the applicant's educational ability than his or her mother.

[seabeyond]

106. if not interviewing face to face, a lot of other factors on application comes into play

and homeschool would not, by far, be a deciding factor on further interview.

further schooling. homeschooling only to highschool. if college, then will validate the earlier education. past experience, and the whole appearance of application.

homeschool just simply would not be an automatic in my head that the person is less educated.

it can be. but then a public education is not indicative of academic skills either.

[liberalhistorian]

112. It's not "his or her mother" that ultimately decides and gives

the assessment, it's the school district where they live. Home schoolers have to pass tests by the district as well, to ensure that they're learning according to state standards; they don't just pick them up from home and then hand them the diploma.

[Orangepeel]

127. that depends on the state

if the applicant has something other than homeschooling, such as a diploma from somebody other than the parent, SAT scores, or college credit, the point is moot.

If a parent wants to homeschool, more power to 'em. However, in my opinion, it behooves the parent to demonstrate that the education is at least comparable, if they want me to believe that it is.

I'm sure that most homeschooling parents do something to validate the quality of the education, even in states where it is not required, but it is not *necessary* in every state.

[TxRider]

160. I see it the other way around.

Since every study I'm aware of has shown on average home schooled kids to be 30%+ above public schooled kids in academic achievement and ability.

I won't even start with the college degree holding incompetents I've had to fire for simply having total lack of ability.

[Indenturedebtor]

250. And what about socialization and ability to work with others?

I've met some pretty naive and strange public schooled and private schooled kids but... Ahem.

[Rebubula]

271. LOL

I have met dozens more that spent their entire lives in public schools that were very naive and VERY strange. Being around other people does not guarantee good social skills.

[TxRider]

161. Of course most home schooled handily outperfom public schooled in academics.

Every study on the subject agrees.

[Statistical]

30. Not all states consider homsexuals a protected class.

That knife cuts both ways.

Discrimination is never ok, maybe it isn't illegal but that doesn't make it ok and it certainly doesn't make it progressive.

Some lessons in life are simple:
Discrimination is wrong.

[Deja Q]

192. So you're saying homosexuality is a choice, too?!

Homeschooling is a choice...

But enough of this horseshit of loose associations and fallacious hyperbole, let's get to the point:

Would you hire the constantly drunk bartender with no mathematical skills to do my accounting... How's that for non-discrimination?

Think about that. Discrimination may be wrong, but if you don't hire that drunk fool with no mathematical skills, I'll be sure to have him sue you for discrimination. :think:

(pretend you gave him the tests to prove he is capable of the necessary mathematics, just to prevent you from finding a cute loophole as a lamentable "defense" to your lamentable viewpoint.)

[Aragorn]

256. it is rarely a choice for the student

duh

[customerserviceguy]

34. Perhaps not, but if a memo or rejection letter ever got out

that the reason that a person wasn't hired was because of a perception that homeschooled people come from a religious environment that "we just don't feel fits in with our vision", then you are treading on protected class status.

Exactly what would be the reason that you wouldn't want a homeschooled individual, anyway? Employers routinely give simple written math, reading comprehension, and logical reasoning tests, and a lack of being able to relate to people (just because you didn't risk a wedgie in a high school hall) can be discovered in an interview.

If those common beliefs about homeschoolers can be successfully challenged by an individual, then the reason is probably religious, right?

[ThomWV]

42. Let me reply to your title

There were no rejection letters or any memos either. I'm giving you the simplest case immaginable - just a guy sitting at a table taking a very big pile of single-page, fill-out-the-form, applications for entry level clerical jobs. You take them and put them in two piles, one you want the Personnel folks to make an appointment for an interview for and the other goes back into the general fund of applications for the next mid-level guy like me who has to hire someone to dig through. No one gets rejected in any formal sense.

If you've ever had to do that job, sift through applications for entry level positions, you'd know how horrible it is. This isn't about hiring for a professional position where every applicant gets a response - this is the land of people who come in to apply for a job and don't have a pen.

[NoPasaran]

50. I wouldn't necessarily reject the home schooled

I'd reject those who didn't bring pens.

[tammywammy]

55. Oh yes!

I never understood that, people coming in to fill out an application and then needed to borrow a pen. :eyes:

edited to add: I have a friend that managed a retail clothing store in the mall. She doesn't let them borrow pens or fill it out at the counter either. Oh and if a parent comes in asking for an application for their teenager, she tells them the kid needs to come in and get it themselves.

[Trekologer]

324. Even worse is when the parent(s) come on the interview and exepct to be part of it

I'm not ashamed to say that those applicants got the "thanks but no thanks" letter.

[Statistical]

58. +1. lol.

[customerserviceguy]

191. Ok, so it's like where the racist manager

goes through the pile of applications and resumes, and puts the "black" sounding names in the "don't call back" pile, right? I mean, hey, it's not like anybody's gotten rejected in any formal sense.

[ohheckyeah]

200. Not at all.

Would you hire a Harvard graduate over someone with a degree from some on line college? Probably.

[customerserviceguy]

205. You're comparing apples and oranges

Your statement of "Harvard University is to University of Phoenix as public school diploma is to homeschooler's GED" is just not true.

[ohheckyeah]

218. That's a matter of opinion and the opinion

of the hiring official is what counts.

[customerserviceguy]

260. True

and just like the hiring officials who excluded the people of color decades ago (when one could do so with complete impunity) the competitor who doesn't think that way will find some very qualified employees.

[ohheckyeah]

289. Quite possibly.

I just don't think it's outside of the realm of reason for a hiring official to come to some conclusions about what type of education is superior to another. I think we all do in some form or another. Most people don't think an on line college is as preferable as a real brick and mortar college. I personally think homeschooling shelters a child too much from many realities of life....that is based on observation and interaction with home schooled kids.

[sense]

300. Your tiny little sample is not

representative of home schooling. Most home schoolers are not sitting at home around the kitchen table with mom and a bible. We're out in the community all day, every day interacting with every age and taking classes, clinics, lessons, etc. with all ages of people. The old stereotypes need to go! We learn 24/7 and it's not a separate part of life, but an integral one. The kids in the public schools are sheltered....kept out of the real world, in an artificial environment they'll never have to deal with again and shouldn't have to deal with now. Do you really want your kids "socialized" by 30 other 5 year olds, or would you rather they learned how to behave with all ages?

[ohheckyeah]

327. While my sample may be small -

not that you would know that, it is still my experience. And small is a relative term. I can't make judgments based on YOUR experience.

[sense]

332. The point is that your limited personal experience

isn't representative of what home schooling is or how it works. Why make judgements on something you haven't researched or read about. My tiny little experiences with many things amount to no real knowledge of how they work. I'm ignorant of quite a lot and wouldn't presume that I know what I haven't studied.

[ohheckyeah]

338. How do you know what my experience is?

Do you have a crystal ball? I said ".that is based on observation and interaction with home schooled kids." I worked in a position that gave me a contact with a fairly large number of home schooled kids in my area. I have read and researched home schooling and I don't think, for the most part, that it gives a child a well rounded experience.

[sense]

342. Yes, your limited experience.

There are as many ways to home school as there are home schoolers. It's a label, not a description. My eldest home schooled child is 19, has completed 3 years of college and speaks 6 languages. He's got a black belt, played on sports teams and is kind and generous. With slight variations that would also describe his home schooled friends. If you only know about the type of home schooler who home schools to be sure their children aren't influenced by those horrible science facts and "worldly" public school children, you're experience is very limited. Yes, I know home schoolers who're not well rounded, as well as public and private schoolers that are not well rounded. We're all individuals and none of us like to be painted into a corner. I know plenty of people who 'have worked with and interacted with home schoolers. For the most part, they know nothing of our daily routine or the education of our children. Even our relatives really don't understand, nor are they interested enough to keep up. Sad fact of the day. :{

[girl gone mad]

255. Luckily, my home schooled kid will never have this problem..

seeing as how he has completed differential equations, college level chemistry, physics, anatomy, computer science, philosophy, music theory, is fluent in three languages, is a nationally competitive athlete (and he isn't even a HS Junior yet), interviewing for an entry level clerical job is probably the last thing he'll ever have to worry about.

But good luck finding your clerk. I'm sure there are plenty of qualified, well socialized High School graduates who would be happy to take the work.

[seabeyond]

259. it is the uninformed, or one can say even ignorant, point the finger and making accusation

a whole group is ignorant.

really kinda oddly funny. and they refuse to get off position too, regardless of given facts or argument that clearly show their position of discrimination

hm

who else does this

well, most all bigots. lol

[sense]

301. Yes!

Those are the home schoolers we know!

[Pab Sungenis]

90. It's not a religious thing.

It's a qualitative, independent judgment. I don't care why a parent held their kid out of school, if I have no verifiable, independent certification of their level of education I have nothing to fall back on.

[Maru Kitteh]

103. Exactly. My step-daughters grades were dependent on the current mood of her Catholic/Fundie mom

Bad day? Squealing little brats giving her a headache? Worried about her third husband cheating on her again? C- TRY HARDER LITTLE MISSY !!!

Good day? Overcharge a bunch of suckers in the name of God for some cheap Chinese made crap on the website she doesn't report to the IRS? A++++++ GREAT JOB SWEETIE !!

[sense]

129. To graduate from high school

you only need to be able to read at a 5th grade level......not a very good "certification" of anything.

[Pab Sungenis]

142. Yet with a home"schooled" applicant

I don't even have certification of their ability to do THAT.

[customerserviceguy]

193. I'd bet that the average home-schooled kid

would do better on any written application or test, or even interview, than a kid who went to a poorly funded public school, and finished with a C average.

My ex sister-in-law taught at a public high school, and she told me that the number one determinant of a kid's success was how involved their parents were in the child's education. With a home-schooled kid, you have that much going for you. You have no such "certification" that the public school kid's parent or parents even made them do their homework.

[sense]

210. Exactly right.

Studies prove it. I'll try to find a link.

[Pab Sungenis]

213. But where are the transcripts to prove it?

And how do I discern your home-schooled kid's qualifications against those of a Fundamentalist kid whose science education, for example, included that the Earth is 6000 years old and that Adam and Eve rode dinosaurs?

Now, if your kid gets into and graduates college, and I can see tangible proof of his knowledge, then I'll credit his education. Until then....

[seabeyond]

215. how do you know if a kid really absorbed any education while in public school. it is a gamble

that is why it is tough hiring. look at all the clues and not throw away an application cause it MIGHT be a christian.

[Pab Sungenis]

219. I wouldn't throw away the application because the applicant MIGHT be a Christian.

I'M a Christian.

I would throw away the application because without independent certification I have no way of knowing that the kid was taught anything at all. Period.

[seabeyond]

253. and you have no way of knowing if the kid in public school has been taught anything .... either

if it is a position that doesnt required college degree, be it homeschooling or highschool, still a guess if the person knows anything. if a position requiring college education, homeschooling is moot because made it thru college so obviously learned something in highschool

it is pure discrimination without valid reasoning to throw away the homeschool application. discrimination, no better if the person black, mexican or female adn throwing away for those reasons

[Pab Sungenis]

261. Discrimination against what?

The uneducated? The undereducated? I'm sorry, but without some certification I have no way of knowing if the kid was taught anything at all. That's the point.

[seabeyond]

263. there is no more cuase, less cause to suggest uneducated, undereducated with homeschool

than with public. and regardless of the info given to you and simple logic you still refuse to acknowledge this. that is pure intentional ignorance which is hallmark for bigotry.... allowing blind discrimination

[Pab Sungenis]

265. Again, DISCRIMINATION AGAINST WHAT?

What am I discriminating against if, when sorting through 50 or 100 applications, I see one from a home "schooled" kid with no proof of education? For all I know it's someone who dropped out at 16, or whose parents just pulled him out or didn't even give a shit about teaching him at all. Unless he took the GED to verify his education level, I have no proof.

[seabeyond]

266. here is the example, assuming you are not homeschooled, how appearance of education implies

actually educated.

DISCRIMINATION AGAINST WHAT?
homeschooled

how many times hae the question been answered for you as you ignore.

i gotta wonder whether that public education is totally wasted on you and would i rather hire an homeschooled person who will not so willfully argue the obvious.

[Pab Sungenis]

269. "Homeschooled" is not a protected class.

There are some things that you are not only allowed to use in making a decision, but it makes sense to.

Lack of education is one of those.

Without an independent certification of education, even one from a correspondence school or a GED, I have no proof of education. To me, the home"schooled" kid who didn't get it certified is essentially a drop out.

Maybe the problem in our discussion is the black mark that the term "discrimination" has gotten. Originally the word meant to mark or perceive distinguishing features when making a decision. In the days of and since Jim Crow it's come to mean unfairly singling out people based on an irrelevant factor.

Not hiring someone due to a lack of needed education is not doing it unfairly.

If you get independent certification of your child's education, then I will consider hiring him. Without that proof, I have no way of knowing that he was taught anything.

If it's "capital D" Discrimination to not want to hire someone who is uneducated, then there is something dreadfully wrong in this country.

[seabeyond]

270. but ignoring hte information you are being given, purposely, on homeschooling shows exactly

how regardless of a person certification of education does not truely reflect the person willingness or desire to think.

there are absolutely a number of little things an employer can find in an application the will clearly show whether the homeschooled or the public schooled is educated. if an employer refuses to even look at all the varying clues, then he fails and is doing a piss poor job

if the application is minus spelling error, grammatically correct, neat and readable penmanship, a clue. if the app has history showing a past of education adn responsibility, than a clue. if the app has outside interest that shows knowledge or thinking than a clue



if a person who hires see homeschool and dismisses app with no further steps, it is discrimination

[Pab Sungenis]

272. I'm sorry, but I still stand by my original claim.

No diploma = no education. I'm less interested in attendance than completion. And to verify that completion I need a diploma.

I wouldn't hire you as a brain surgeon without board certification. Period.

So if the job required high school education, and I don't have certification of that education, I'm not going to hire you. Period.

[seabeyond]

273. No diploma = no education... and this is the very essence of ignorance. nt

[Pab Sungenis]

274. No diploma means you haven't proven your education

to an independent authority. That's it, pure and simple.

[sense]

305. Your inability to learn is stunning!

[Pab Sungenis]

345. Your inability to back up your argument with anything more than vitriol is stunning.

Or perhaps it's just unwillingness?

You might do the best job in the world of educating your child at home. But until and unless there is a diploma issued from a certified authority verifying your child's completion of secondary or post-secondary education, I have no proof that he learned anything.

Without independent certification, saying you "graduated" from home school is nothing more than saying "here's a note from my mom." That doesn't cut it in the real world.

[sense]

352. Your inability to do anything except repeat yourself

is not winning your argument. My child has had no difficulty with anyone over whether or not he had a diploma. What is it that you don't get about a diploma not having much meaning? In this century, minds are open and there are alternatives to just about everything. The whole question is whether or not you know anything about an applicant for a job, when your only basis for bias is that the person was educated outside of the the majority system. It's perfectly legal for me to print my son a diploma and certify that he's graduated. I haven't done that as it's unnecessary and silly, but I could, if I cared about the small minded people who can't seem to wrap their minds around different being ok.

Because you have proof of nothing when someone fills out an application, until you interview them, at the very least, you shouldn't discriminate. Lying on applications is rampant. It's proven. You're simply wrong to discriminate.

[Pab Sungenis]

364. Again, I can't call in every applicant.

I need criteria to decide which ones make the cut when I go to interview. Education is one of those criteria, and if I have no independent verification of education, then as far as I'm concerned there is no education.

It doesn't have to be the majority system, either. I'd interview a Catholic or Christian high school graduate. I'd interview a charter school graduate. I'd interview a correspondence school graduate. I WON'T interview someone who didn't actually graduate from anywhere, or who only has their parent's say-so that they graduated.

And I would have no problem interviewing your child, IF an independent certifying authority verified the results of your education. If it was in a state that offered and performed standardized testing to certify completion of coursework (like the HSPT here in New Jersey) I'd consider that graduated. If it was a correspondence school that certified his graduation, I'd consider it. I WON'T consider someone who has no proof of graduation unless there are no other applicants who graduated from high school.

As far as proof, I can verify anything on an application, be it employment history, military service (if it's relevant), or education. Unless the only education the applicant has is "home schooled" with no independent certification. But when I have one job and 50-100 applicants, I need to decide which batch to call in, and I need criteria to make that decision. Education is one of those criteria.

[sense]

371. When you get an application you have

no verification of anything. No one has submitted their diploma, it's all just words. Interview. Request any info or documents you think you need. An application isn't verification. My son could lie on an app. and you'd never know, because he's going to come across as extremely well educated. He wouldn't lie, because he's honest. They way you're doing it now is discrimination and not in your best interest.

[sense]

306. You have no idea who's educated and who's

not if you summarily dismiss people based on something you're prejudiced against and refuse to learn about. That's discrimination. It doesn't matter if home schoolers are a protected class or not, you're bigoted and ignorant if you dismiss them based on that. Who would want to work for someone so small minded?

[Pab Sungenis]

347. You want to say I'm bigoted against stupid people?

I will gladly wear that crown.

And expecting anyone to take your claims of your child's education at face value without independent certification qualifies you for that category.

[sense]

354. If you were bigoted against stupid,

we wouldn't be having this conversation. You're wearing a crown alright. The emperor has no clothing.

[Pab Sungenis]

367. You're right

because I would accept that there is no way you are ever going to see sense in this matter, and give up on you. I gambled that I was talking with someone who would listen to reason, and I lost.

[sense]

370. Ah, I see,

Can't defend your position. Discriminate away!

[sense]

303. You're discriminating

against home schooled people. What's hard to understand about that? Might as well eliminate all the people with blue eyes. You know just as much about each of those groups of people. Nothing. Yet, you choose to give them no chance.

[Pab Sungenis]

346. Actually, if anything I might be discriminating against

people who don't feel the rules apply to them. If you want to educate your child at home, fine, but don't expect other people to accept that education unless you're prepared to back up the results with independent certification. Otherwise, they're meaningless.

I could say that I have a PhD in Philology from the University of My Washroom, but if I honestly expect anyone to accept that on face value, then I'm an idiot.

And if you expect anyone to accept your child's "graduation" from Kitchen Table High School without an independent certification verifying the results of that education, then you're an idiot.

[sense]

355. Still not reading. Amazing.

Can you read? Did you get the part where your bizarre idea that home school means anything except that someone was educated outside of the majority system? Sitting around the kitchen table isn't remotely accurate in this century! When my son reached 18 he already had 2 years of college credit with more than a 4 point. He's not alone. Many, many home schooled children enter college at (oh, horrors) a younger age than the majority. Open your mind. Education isn't between the hours of 8 and 3, Monday through Friday. It's all day, every day and you can't know who's qualified for a job by looking at an application. You discriminate and there's no defense for your position.

[Pab Sungenis]

365. You're the one who isn't reading.

If the home"schooled" child enters college, then "home school" is no longer the top line of the education portion of the application. I have an independent entity (the college) certifying that student's matriculation.

I don't care what age that person entered college; one of my best friends in college (and still to this day) started University at 16. I don't care whether it's the majority system (public schools) or an alternative (private, parochial, charter, correspondence, etc.) as long as it's some system in place to verify that the student has been educated to certain standards.

The length of the educational experience also doesn't concern me. We have a new charter school here in town where a friend is sending his 2nd grader. Their school day runs from 8 AM until 5 PM with a series of breaks in-between. There is another proposed charter school that would hold classes from 8 AM until noon, but hold classes year round (with a one week break between sessions). Or, as far as I'm concerned, a kid who's 13 but already learned everything there is at the high school level can go take the GED and, as long as the labor laws will allow it, I'll hire him. Because someone has offered independent verification of his education.

As for "you can't know who's qualified for a job by looking at an application," that's possible, but you can usually tell who isn't qualified by looking at that application. You weed out ones you don't think are worth the effort interviewing to concentrate on who you think is.

You just want preferential treatment for your child because he's been home"schooled." I'm sorry, but it doesn't work that way. I'm holding him to the same standards I hold everyone else. If he doesn't have a diploma, he's not a high school graduate. And a diploma issued by you, as I've said, is just a note from his mom.

Out of curiosity, which University did your son go to that used a grade point average system that allows "greater than 4 point?" In nearly every University, A is 4 points, B is 3, and so on. 4.0 is perfect. How did your son achieve "better than perfect?"

[sense]

373. I've never wanted or gotten preferential

treatment for me or my children. You might want to check what you think is a fact. 4 point is no longer the highest. Get an A+, get more than a 4 point. Get several A+'s, even better. I'm not about to give you any identifying info about my children. Home schooled children take college courses to more than satisfy high school requirements. The faster pace and more indepth learning is much more interesting than what is taught at the high school level.

Really, you have no standards. You just discriminate.

[keroro gunsou]

374. but you'd have no problem

hiring the home schooled applicant who had a legit diploma from his school district? most sane school districts try to work together with home schooler (at least the local one where i live). to be considered a gradute of kitchen table high, you need to complete standardized tests like the ones GED students take in my area.

[sense]

304. You have no idea what lies

people have put on their application. You have no proof of anything unless you quit discriminating and give them a fair chance, based on something that matters.

[Pab Sungenis]

349. "based on something that matters?"

EDUCATION MATTERS.

And I can, and often would, research the claims made on an application. Work history, and so on. And graduation is fairly easy to verify in this digital age.

And I hate to tell you this, but to claim you graduated high school when you did not IS a lie, and someone who claims that they graduated when they have no diploma WOULD be lying to me, and I'd not only not hire them I'd flag them for future reference.

Get your kid a diploma. Unless you're afraid that you can't back up your home education.

[sense]

356. Sad, Sad, Sad

Hey, check out those "internets", anyone can buy a diploma. Guess what else is easy to verify with an interview. Competence, education, the ability to think, to answer questions (even in a foreign language). This isn't about "claiming to have a diploma". Diploma, diploma, diploma. Discrimination, discrimination, discrimination. Education, education, education. Prejudice is ugly.

[sense]

302. You don't discriminate,

you interview them just like they're normal.......because bigotry is ugly.

[Pab Sungenis]

348. You claim I'm not reading posts, then you ignore what I've said repeatedly.

If I have 50-100 applications for a single job, I am NOT going to call them all in. I'm going to weed out unsuitable applications, then winnow down the rest until I have a manageable number.

First, I'll take out ones with unacceptable work history.

Then I'll take out ones with no work history, unless I'm specifically looking for an entry-level position.

If the pile is still too large, then I'll look at education, and take out ones with no high school education.

Then high school dropouts.

If the pile is still too large, I'll take out high school graduates with no college. Then keep winnowing it down until I have a manageable pile, say 10 applications for a single position, 15 for two.

Without independent certification, home"schooled" kids fall into the "no high school" category, because I have no evidence that they actually completed any coursework.

If a home"schooled" kid gets a GED or some other independent certification, he falls into the "high school, no college" category. If he gets accepted into college, he falls into the "some college" or "graduated college" category.

What you seem to want is for PREFERENCE for home"schooled" kids, you want them automatically jumped to the head of the line on just your say-so. That makes no sense. Unless someone with an educational background, independent of you, in a position to certify the education of your child signs off on a real diploma then there is no verifiable schooling. Period. End of paragraph.

Your wishing it was so doesn't make it so. Your contempt for the rules doesn't invalidate them.

[sense]

357. Wow! Way to ignore what I've said, again.

obfuscating. Your position is indefensible.


"What you seem to want is for PREFERENCE for home"schooled" kids, you want them automatically jumped to the head of the line on just your say-so. That makes no sense. Unless someone with an educational background, independent of you, in a position to certify the education of your child signs off on a real diploma then there is no verifiable schooling. Period. End of paragraph.

Your wishing it was so doesn't make it so. Your contempt for the rules doesn't invalidate them."


No one has asked for preference anywhere in this thread (way to make things up), just a chance. Your way of discrimination is based on your own ignorance. My contempt for the rules??? I've never even had a traffic ticket. I'm a rule follower. :-) Choosing to home school was the most difficult choice I've ever made because I was certain (before I educated myself :-)), that it was only done by evangelicals, fundies and the occasional "granola head" (no offense intended). I was ignorant. As I'm ignorant of many things.....but not unable to learn.

[Pab Sungenis]

366. Wow! Way to ignore my answers to your comments, and what I'VE said.

No one has asked for preference anywhere in this thread (way to make things up),

Yes, you have. You've asked for your home"schooled" child to have a preference over other applicants who, like yours, don't have a high school diploma.

just a chance.

You have a chance. Get your student tested by a correspondence school or have him take the GED or similar test (depending upon your state) to certify his successful completion of secondary level education. Just like everyone else.

Your way of discrimination is based on your own ignorance.

There's no ignorance about it. I'll accept your student's education when and if it's certified by an independent authority. Some states have standardized tests required for a diploma. Others require a passing grade in certain classes at certain levels for same. Whatever the requirements, there are requirements.

My contempt for the rules??? I've never even had a traffic ticket. I'm a rule follower. :-)

Except for the rule that to be a high school graduate, you actually have to graduate.

I was ignorant. As I'm ignorant of many things.....but not unable to learn.

Then learn this: unless someone independent certifies that your child has completed secondary education, then he hasn't graduated.

[sense]

369. Oh, my god!

I've never said that my child graduated. He didn't need to graduate. No one does. Colleges accept home schooled children at a higher rate than students who graduated. It's a fact. You're still ignoring everything, refusing to learn. Sad.

[sense]

209. Education

would be a good thing for you too! You appear to have no idea what home "schooling" is. My son is home "schooled". He speaks 6 languages and attends one of the most rigorous colleges in the US. I'm taking no credit for what he knows. I simply didn't force him to sit in a hopeless situation (for him) for six hours a day. We are all individuals! He was given the time and resources to pursue his interests. Such a simple concept.

[sense]

375. This was in the news today: 75% of Oklahoma

high school students can't name the first president of the US. http://www.news9.com/global/story.asp?s=11141949

What exactly does a diploma mean? I'm pretty sure I learned that fact in 1st grade.

[TCJ70]

162. Don't home schoolers have to take the GED test?

Isn't that an independent, verifiable certification?

[sense]

211. No, there is no requirement for taking the GED and

in some cases that is detrimental. :-( There are tests that must be taken as you're advancing in age, different in every state, but there is generally no ending requirement. Once you've started college it's irrelevant. Many home schoolers attend college early. My eldest started at 15.

[sense]

220. You could learn so much

by simply interviewing them......or have them write an essay....there are so many ways to learn about people. Why shut out an entire section of the population because you're incapable of thinking of alternatives to public ed? People will show you who they are. Don't discriminate.

[Pab Sungenis]

264. I can think of lots of alternatives to public ed.

Private schools. Charter schools. Religious schools. GED. But they all present something that home "schoolers" do not: proof of completion.

If you want to home "school" then fine. Teach your kids, then have them take the GED at the appropriate time.

[sense]

275. Been there, done that.

None of those alternatives offered an education that would work for my child. The GED isn't proof of anything. It requires only a 5th grade reading level, but if that's what you need to see.....good luck. By 18 my child had completed two years of college credit and spoke 6 languages. Not exactly a fit for any of the schools you mention. Some just do not fit into the box and trying to cram them in is abuse. I don't take credit for all he learned, I speak only one language, but I'm smart enough to know how to find the resources he needed. Home schooling is just a label, not a description of how a person gets an education without "school". Try not to buy into the propaganda from the NEA.

[Pab Sungenis]

278. But, again, how do you prove that?

Who, independently, has certified what your child has been taught?

[seabeyond]

280. the COLLEGE that the child went to. why so purposely obtuse or beyond

obtuse.

[Pab Sungenis]

284. If an applicant went to college

then the place/degree of secondary education is irrelevant. I have evidence of post-secondary education.

But for someone whose top line of education is "home schooled," then there is no proof whatsoever.

[seabeyond]

286. and if you are hiring from only the pool of high school grad there is way more important

issues than highschool vs homeschool.

anyone hiring know this.

i have to assume you are in this argument without any kind of experience so really all of your opinion is irrelevent.

[Pab Sungenis]

287. Oh, I have experience in hiring and firing.

And without a diploma, a home"schooled" kid is not a high school graduate.

[mzteris]

340. except in many states,

homeschoolers DO get a diploma.

If we had continued homeschooling in NC, my son would have graduated from Discovery Academy. A very private school of one.

And yeah, they're legal diplomas.

I have experience in hiring and firing as well. I have met many a "high school graduate" who was as dumb as a box of rocks and about as well-educated.

[Pab Sungenis]

344. In those states, who issues the diploma?

Is it a state authority? Do they verify the results of the education? That's the issue.

[mzteris]

362. the administrator of the school. . .

so you'd never know the damn difference anyway.

Get off of your "state authority" bs - some states are so frickin' backwards it's laughable. Try sending your kid to a traditional public school in a state that ranks below #40 or so . . . think that "diploma" is worth much? Really?

Take a look at the results of this recent study

Drawing from 15 independent testing services, the Progress Report 2009: Homeschool Academic Achievement and Demographics included 11,739 homeschooled students from all 50 states who took three well-known tests—California Achievement Test, Iowa Tests of Basic Skills, and Stanford Achievement Test for the 2007–08 academic year. The Progress Report is the most comprehensive homeschool academic study ever completed.

The Results

Overall the study showed significant advances in homeschool academic achievement as well as revealing that issues such as student gender, parents’ education level, and family income had little bearing on the results of homeschooled students.

National Average Percentile Scores
Subtest Homeschool / Public School
Reading 89 / 50
Language 84 / 50
Math 84 / 50
Science 86 / 50
Social Studies 84 / 50
Core a 88 / 50
Composite b 86 / 50

a. Core is a combination of Reading, Language, and Math.
b. Composite is a combination of all subtests that the student took on the test.

There was little difference between the results of homeschooled boys and girls on core scores.

Boys—87th percentile
Girls—88th percentile

Household income had little impact on the results of homeschooled students.

$34,999 or less—85th percentile
$35,000–$49,999—86th percentile
$50,000–$69,999—86th percentile
$70,000 or more—89th percentile

The education level of the parents made a noticeable difference, but the homeschooled children of non-college educated parents still scored in the 83rd percentile, which is well above the national average.

Neither parent has a college degree—83rd percentile
One parent has a college degree—86th percentile
Both parents have a college degree—90th percentile

Whether either parent was a certified teacher did not matter.

Certified (i.e., either parent ever certified)—87th percentile
Not certified (i.e., neither parent ever certified)—88th percentile

Parental spending on home education made little difference.

Spent $600 or more on the student—89th percentile
Spent under $600 on the student—86th percentile

The extent of government regulation on homeschoolers did not affect the results.

Low state regulation—87th percentile
Medium state regulation—88th percentile
High state regulation—87th percentile

Government regulation is defined this way:

States with low regulation: No state requirement for parents to initiate any contact or State requires parental notification only.

States with moderate regulation: State requires parents to send notification, test scores, and/or professional evaluation of student progress.

State with high regulation: State requires parents to send notification or achievement test scores and/or professional evaluation, plus other requirements (e.g. curriculum approval by the state, teacher qualification of parents, or home visits by state officials).

The question is, “If government regulation does not improve the results of homeschoolers why is it necessary?”

In short, the results found in the new study are consistent with 25 years of research, which show that as a group homeschoolers consistently perform above average academically. The Progress Report also shows that, even as the numbers and diversity of homeschoolers have grown tremendously over the past 10 years, homeschoolers have actually increased the already sizeable gap in academic achievement between themselves and their public school counterparts-moving from about 30 percentile points higher in the Rudner study (1998) to 37 percentile points higher in the Progress Report (2009).

As mentioned earlier, the achievement gaps that are well-documented in public school between boys and girls, parents with lower incomes, and parents with lower levels of education are not found among homeschoolers. While it is not possible to draw a definitive conclusion, it does appear from all the existing research that homeschooling equalizes every student upwards. Homeschoolers are actually achieving every day what the public schools claim are their goals—to narrow achievement gaps and to educate each child to a high level.

Of course, an education movement which consistently shows that children can be educated to a standard significantly above the average public school student at a fraction of the cost—the average spent by participants in the Progress Report was about $500 per child per year as opposed to the public school average of nearly $10,000 per child per year—will inevitably draw attention from the K-12 public education industry.


edit to try and make chart more readable.

[Pab Sungenis]

363. It doesn't have to be the state.

There are correspondence schools that do graduation testing of home educated children and can issue an acceptable diploma. As long as it's an independent certifying authority of some kind.

[sense]

281. A high school diploma isn't a certification that a person

has been taught anything, let alone learned anything. Anyone can get one with minimal effort. You're simply trying to justify discrimination. If that works for you, then continue on. You'll miss out on a lot of good candidates due to your own refusal to learn. Home schooling is a term, not a description.

[Pab Sungenis]

285. Actually, I think it's you who is justifying your discrimination.

You're prejudiced against the public school system. Why and wherefore I don't know, but it's obvious that you have problems with people who came up through public schools.

A diploma certifies that a person has completed twelve years (or the equivalent work thereof) of secondary education. Where it comes from doesn't matter to me, only that it was completed.

And if someone can get one with minimal effort, then at least they made the effort. If you're so certain that your home"schooled" child has been educated to high school level then have them take the GED and get the certification. At least make that minimal effort.

Really, I hate the whole term "homeschooled" anyhow, because it's a terrible misnomer. A "school" implies an institution or group. "Home educated" is a better term.

[sense]

299. What's obvious is that you're missing the point and still

not thinking, just reacting. I'm a product of public schools. My son attended public schools for 4 years while we fought to get them to teach him something he didn't already know. He could easily have passed the ged when he was 8, spoke two languages and had already completed 5th grade. He's 19, speaks 6 languages now and is in his 4th year of college. GED? I don't think so. He didn't need that to get into college, why would he need it now? Home schooling is a misnomer, but not in the way you think. Most home schoolers I know are never home. We're out in the community interacting with all ages, taking classes with all ages, earning black belts in martial arts, playing on sports teams and learning 24/7.

The stereotype of the kids at the kitchen table with mom and a bible are outdated and people need to quit perpetuating old myths. I take no credit for what my son has learned. He learned because I gave him the time and resources to learn on his own. I didn't lock him up with his age mates in a completely artificial environment that resembles no other environment you'll find in the real world. He's read more books than I'll ever read in a lifetime and I'm a reader.

You want me to make the minimal effort of having him take the GED? We have much higher standards than that.

[Pab Sungenis]

326. If you're not willing to get the results of his education certified

then your home education efforts are for nothing.

Like I said, if I have one job and 100 applications I'm not calling in 100 people. I might call in 5 or 10. Without verifiable proof of secondary education, that application drifts to the bottom of the pile.

You may think you're giving your child an advantage in the real world, but unless you can back it up with paper you really aren't. If anything, you're doing him a disservice.

[sense]

331. Still not reading the posts!

Like talking to a brick wall!

[Pab Sungenis]

343. Still refusing to subject your child's education to an independent certifying authority.

No diploma = no verifiable education. Period.

[sense]

358. INTERVIEW!

Said and said again. Don't discriminate. My child doesn't need a government stamp on him. Interview instead of discriminating. Move into this century.....you can do it. Alternatives abound. If the interviewee can't articulate, then you've got something to go on. Otherwise..... well... you know.

[mzmolly]

391. Apparently

they need to be.

[olegramps]

60. Many home-schooled kids are provided with intense Christian indoctrination.

If I was an employer, I think that I would be careful that I was not hiring a person that could prove to be a serious disrupt liability. They may be very difficult to terminate even though they could be espousing a hard line Christian message that is offensive to most of my employees. Religion, like politics can be an explosive issue and I don't think that if I had a business to protect and loyal employees to consider that I would be very conducive to hiring a possible liability. I have watched several programs in which these kids and parents were interviewed and I found them to be extremely closed minded and very vocal in their beliefs saying things such as you are condemned to hell for eternity if you are not a born again Christian and accept Jesus as your saviour.

[seabeyond]

62. again, i would not discriminate against a christian. being a christian is not a deciding factor

in hiring.

there are rules to follow once hired be it a christian or an atheist. they would be expected to follow or lose their job

[olegramps]

85. There is a big difference between being a Christian and being a vocal advocate.

Would you hire a Black person who publicly advocated discriminating against Whites? Or a White that advocated discrimination against Blacks, Muslims, Catholics, etc? Of course not.

I have experience exactly what some employers fear and I can certainly see why some are being cautious since it is difficult to get rid of a employee who is preaching a brand of religion that could be offensive.

I feel sorry for any kid that could be unfairly branded. However, it is virtually impossible to discern if a prospect's religious convictions could prove to be harmful to the company without violating the law. I am not saying that it is fair, but unfortunately some radical Christian home schooling parents have gone to extremes in indoctrinating their children to such an extent that some employers are overly cautious. This is a fact that I have discussed with two of my brothers-in-law who both hire high school graduates. One hired a young kid out of high school who proved to a real problem. They want to hire the best candidate, but have a business to protect and don't want anyone coming in preaching a radical view that leads to disruption. I hired a person who turned out to be an out right racist who created intense dissension. I was finally spared because he turned out to be a hopeless drunk and got thrown in jail for DUI's and narcotics violations.

It is a case of a some extremists creating an undesirable situation. Fair? Hell no, but a sad fact none the less. I am fully cognizant that many home schooled kids are excellent students and surpass a lot of traditionally educated high school students. If a young person went on to obtain a college degree this would be, I tend to believe, not to be a important aspect, but coming directly out of high school level it may affect their chances of being hired.

[seabeyond]

93. as i clearly stated in post, if christian or atheist doesnt follow rules they dont have jobs

because a person is homeschooled doesnt mean fundie. because fundie doesnt mean will be disruptive employee.

if it is a disruptive employee, doesnt mean a fundie

[FarCenter]

110. Getting rid of a bad hire is a huge hassle, and the hiring manager that made the mistake will suffer

If it is a large organization, HR will have all kinds of hoops that the manager will have to jump through in order to fire someone. In many cases, the best that can be done is to "encourage" them to leave on their own. Beware the labor lawyers.

Plus, the manager making the bad hire decision will have his own performance evaluation negatively affected.

So hiring decisions are somewhat of a crap shoot at best, given the limited information that the hiring manager can obtain. Applications are sketchy, references are reticent, and a lot of information is either out of bounds or kept restricted to HR staff.

So the absence of a high school diploma from a recognized, accredited school would be a big red flag against the applicant.

[seabeyond]

113. having hired in one of my positions and my store used for hiring, training and sending

to other stores, i understand the challenges. and again i say, i would not see homeschooling as indicative of lacking education and assuming public education suggests academic skills. i know many many that have come out of public schools with degrees and little else.

[sense]

307. You wouldn't see it as a red flag if

you knew what home schooling is. It has nothing to do with home. It's a legitimate, alternative, normal path to an education. A diploma guarantees you nothing. Read the entire application and interview. Don't discriminate.

[Maru Kitteh]

111. Why not head off trouble you sense coming before hand? That's one of the purposes of an interview

in the first place.

If I interview someone and get the immediate sense that they have strong racial or gender biases and are fanatical about gun ownership they will not get the job - no matter how qualified they are.

[seabeyond]

115. if someone, anyone does not perform well in interivew and shows self to be a disruptive

personality i would not hire them. the person that tells me all bosses are cheatin sob adn treats employees as slaves and just sit on their fat asses is going to clue me in that they are disruptive and i do not want them infecting other employees

because a person is religious, or homeschooled or even a fundie does not mean that they are disruptive

if one makes that assumption then they are discriminating.

[FarCenter]

130. If you have a religious conservative who is anti-gay, and your company has a policy of tolerance

And this employee mouths off to gays and sends hostile emails, then you, the manager, has a major problem.

Luckily, this person transfered to a job in a less tolerant state.

[seabeyond]

134. if i have an atheist that is anti christian and he mouths off

then i have a problem.

i can have an employee who is anti gay and he keeps mouth shut and does not bring it into work, none of my business.

[FarCenter]

136. I agree -- in general, you want employees who can leave all that disruptive stuff at home.

Whether it is sexual orientation, religion, race, politics, or whatever.

Strongly held views on social issues irrelevant to the job are always a problem.

Keep the Mets and Yankees fans separate. Don't make the Chinese work with the Indians.

[seabeyond]

138. or.... it is work. go in and work. cant keep it a professional working environment

go get a job somewhere else

but i am not going to discriminate against one group or another to have all like minds to make sure there is no conflict what so ever.

[sense]

308. That has nothing to do with

home schooling.

[liberalhistorian]

116. Hell, I've known atheists and agnostics in the

workplace who've been far more preachy and disruptive obnoxious than what this person thinks Christians would be.

[seabeyond]

120. exactly. or the employee that bitches is a slave and abused ect... nt

[TxRider]

66. And many are not, many from private shcools have christian indoctrination..

[seabeyond]

68. many from public schools have christian indoctrination. that poster is talking religious

discimination, simply

[liberalhistorian]

114. Excuse me, but large numbers of parents are

home schooling who are not even religious at all; a lot of times, it has nothing to do with religion or cultural paranoia, or any other such thing. It may have originally started as a "religious" thing, but it isn't that way now. And just because you're a Christian means you're a "disruptive liability?" I don't think so. I'm a Christian and I've never been any kind of "disruptive liability" in the workplace. Not all of us are RW fundies, you know. Sheesh.

[seabeyond]

118. and even if your are a rw fundie you have the right to not be discriminated against

i dont get that we have to have this discussion on du, lol

wow.

you surprised?

[liberalhistorian]

122. Actually, no, I'm not surprised, sad to say.

There's a LOT of anti-religious bias on this site. No matter how many times I've tried to point out that you can't paint all of us Christians with the same brush, it just doesn't matter. DUers have their biases and prejudices like everyone else.

[Realityhack]

144. If you were an employer, what you just said in your post...

could be used against you in a lawsuit for religious discrimination. And rightfully so.

[TCJ70]

148. What's your definition of "intense Christian indoctrination"?

Growing up in a Christian environment? Sheesh...You're talking about discrimination based on religion.

[mzteris]

341. and many home-schooled kids are NOT . . .

So essentially you're saying you would indulge in religious discrimination. That IS against the law, ya know?

[peacebird]

70. it's "discrimination"not "dEscrimination" - just fyi

[seabeyond]

71. thank you. kept looking at it, thinking something not right. brain fart

appreciate. unfortunately i cant edit so i have to live with

[DeepBlueC]

389. if you are home schooled

I will want to know your parents' educational credentials.

[Buzz Clik]

2. Some very brilliant people are home-schooled. You might have missed some good ones.

[no_hypocrisy]

3. I'd hire anyone who was articulate, a critical thinker, and could think

independently.

[ThomWV]

10. Just looking at the paper application - you don't know any of that.

[Kaleva]

27. then why reject a home schooled applicant because of an assumption?

[ThomWV]

76. Because it provides no qualitative measure

You tell me a kid made it through the 6th grade and I have something to judge by, tell me they made it to the 9th and I think something else of them, tell me they graduated from any public high school in the nation and that tells me something else too - but you tell me they are home schooled and I know nothing at all about their education. That's why.

[TxRider]

80. Ohh come on, a HS diploma these days shows what exactly?

Certainly not mastery of any meaningful skills.

[Kaleva]

100. What positions are you looking to be filled?

If one is looking for a person with a college degree and a certain number of years of experience in the position, I don't see how being home schooled or not would matter. If I'm looking for an 18 or 19 year old to be a forklift operator in a warehouse, I can probably tell by the way they filled out the application as to if they had enough education to understand basic instructions and can communicate reasonably well.

My eldest step-son graduated from high school ranked 7th in his class, won a number of scholarships and was accepted by every college he applied for. He choose one not too far from home and when he attended indoctrination, he and the other students were told that what they accomplished in high school no longer mattered. What they accomplished in college though would have an impact on them for the rest of their lives.

[liberalhistorian]

121. And once again, they are assessed by the

district in which they live and if they don't pass the assessment, they don't get the diploma. Period. The parents do not have the final say in that, they never have.

[sense]

132. That's why you interview them,

to find out what you need to know about them. Cutting them out of the process due to your prejudice, based on one piece of information just makes you a bigot. Many people are home schooled due to the dumbing down of public and private schools. Their parents do not keep them home, locked away, reading the bible. They're in the community learning 24/7 and they're used to interacting with all sorts of people, not just teens.

[sense]

311. What about all the people

who lie on their application? You have nothing, if you don't interview.

[Obamanaut]

28. And when the paper application lists a degree in astrophysics, do

you REALLy know if such a degree is held until the interview?

There really could be such a degree held, and the interview might show the applicant to be a total "looser" (I did that on purpose.)

[sense]

310. Yes!

That describes my home schooled children and many of their peers.

[cali]

4. no, I wouldn't.

I wouldn't reject a job applicant just because he/she was home schooled.

[Pab Sungenis]

5. No.

It suggests a lack of proper education, if you ask me.

[KittyWampus]

69. George W. Bush had a "proper education". Just saying.

[Pab Sungenis]

88. True, but

education is only one of many aspects.

Let's also remember that school is as much about socialization and learning to interact with others as it is actually learning. It's also about exposure to different viewpoints and people who are not "like you." You lose out on that with a lot of homeschool cases.

[sense]

223. Many, is not all.

Don't discriminate. Home school doesn't mean your only education is at home. Home schoolers don't separate education from the rest of life, relegated only to certain hours and days of the week.

[girl gone mad]

258. I think you're really out of touch with the modern home school movement.

For example, my son took home school science classes a few years ago and his lab partner was a kid from the inner city, who he never would have met in suburban public school. They are still good friends, though they live in completely different worlds.

[Progressive_In_NC]

74. Really? My 12 year old home schooler is taking Geometry and Chemistry at the community college

I have a feeling the child will wind up at Virgina Tech, N.C. State or Georgia Tech to study a science or math.

Are you talking about folks whose only education is a home school education? Or folks whose base education was a home school education and went on to University afterwards?

My three kids will fall into the second category. And trust me, we don't indoctrinate at all, but we do feel that our kids are sweeter, more polite and better adjusted by keeping them out of 12 years of the herd mentality.

[Pab Sungenis]

86. I look at whatever the bottom line is.

If you went to college, that's what I look at.

If you didn't, I look at your secondary and any post-secondary.

To me, anyone who was home-schooled and didn't go to college had no formal education at all.

[sense]

225. Which means nothing!

"Formal education" is not the only way to go. Home schooling doesn't exclude formal education, it opens the doors to all sorts of education. What ever works best for the student.

[sense]

224. Exactly!

Mine too!

[TxRider]

75. So you would pass up people like

George Washington
Thomas Jefferson
James Madison
John Quincy Adams
Abraham Lincoln
William Henry Harrison
Theodore F. Roosevelt
George Washington Carver
Pierre Curie
Albert Einstein
Booker T. Washington
Blaise Pascal
Winston Churchill
Benjamin Franklin
Patrick Henry

And many many other who were home schooled or had little formal education out of hand...

Hmm..

And prefer the results of our present public school systems...

[SidDithers]

91. I'd pass on them all...

they're all dead.

Sid

[SidneyCarton]

178. But imagine the healthcare savings!

[FarCenter]

128. Some of these had college degrees

Albert Einstein had a Diploma from what is now ETH in Zurich, Switzerland, a very fine institute of technology.

George Washington Carver earned a Masters degree from Iowa State.

Pierre Curie had a Doctorate from Sorbonne.

Winstons Churchill attended three different schools. He had very little contact with his father, and not much with his mother.

Theodore Roosevelt dropped out of Harvard and Columbia Law School. Harvard dropouts should be hired, since they include Bill Gates.

[TxRider]

171. And many home schooled go to get degrees.

In those cases high school education would be irrelevant.

So degrees are beside the point.

[Pab Sungenis]

214. No, they're not. They're right on the point.

A college degree, or even partial college credits, are a tangible, independent, verifiable sign of education. I don't have that with some kid who was home schooled and the only evidence I have that he learned anything is a note from his mom.

[sense]

226. Education

Get some. My home schooled son speaks 6 languages. I speak one. Gee..... I wonder where he learned that...... oops! He must have left the house when I wasn't looking......

[Pab Sungenis]

262. But how do you PROVE that?

How do you PROVE that he learned languages, and social sciences, and various sciences, and history, and math and algebra, and so on and so on. Without a real diploma or a GED I have no way of verifying that your son was taught anything. And without that verification I won't hire him.

Have him take the GED when the time comes.

[sense]

276. Interview him?

Such a concept. Every time some one opens their mouth, you learn something about them. The time has come and gone, he's in his 4th year of college without the GED, at 19. I don't think he's going to need it and obviously didn't need it to move forward with his education in his own way. He had plenty of company his age and younger when he enrolled. You wouldn't hire him because he doesn't have the right piece of paper, that certifies he can read at a 5th grade level? What are you thinking?

[Pab Sungenis]

277. If I have 50-100 applicants I can't interview them all.

I'm going to sift through the applications and pick likely choices. If I have applicants with evidence of secondary education, they're going to rise quicker than ones with no secondary education.

[sense]

279. Using one irrelevant piece of information

to exclude someone is prejudice. Pretty simple and pretty sad.

[Pab Sungenis]

282. It's not irrelevant.

Education is relevant. If there's no degree, no proof of education, then I have to assume that there was no completed education.

[TxRider]

240. If the kid has college credits or even partial college credits

Then your not going to basing a judgment to interview and hie based on home schooling or public schooling basis, so yes it's beside the point.

[sense]

222. Proper?

Yikes! Let's all be "proper". Whatever that means.....

[sense]

312. Your post reflects a lack of proper education.

Sad that you're not listening to anything people are trying to teach you.

[crim son]

7. I don't think it would be a huge consideration.

The candidate's experience, attitude, capability etc. would weigh much more heavily. Some parents do a fantastic job with home-schooling; some don't, and there are an awful lot of idiots who go to public school, IMHO. Having said that, I don't homeschool and would not. Here in Bangor the school system is pretty darned fantastic.

[TxRider]

19. Exactly...

It's not like a high school education is a doctorate.

For quality of education I would put a home schooled kid against a public high school grad any day of the week.

What kind of job are you going to hire a high school grad for anyway...

[newfie11]

8. I thought there were standards the kids had to follow

The few I have met seemed very intelligent and well mannered. I guess if the knowledge and experience for the job was equal I would have no problem hiring one.

[Vinca]

9. It depends on the quality of the teaching and the motive behind

teaching children at home. If you want to keep the kids away from the "evil" teachings of evolution, for example, those kids ought to be in public school.

[sense]

314. I agree

Homeschooling to be sure your kids don't learn is abuse.

[Curtland1015]

12. If they seemed like they knew the job, I wouldn't really care how they learned it. HOWEVER...

...the only homeschooled people I've ever met were very socially awkward. Whether that was a symptom of their home schooling or just their natural personality I don't know, but I would certainly want to see how they worked with other people (if that was to be a part of their job).

But if they knew their stuff and seemed like they'd be easy to work with, I certainly wouldn't pass them up.

[Le Taz Hot]

13. I would hire them if they were qualified.

My interviews always included a writing exam to ensure literacy so as long as they could pass that, they could go on to the second level. I would, however, direct (legal) questions to find out whether they were a fundie or not. That one IS a deal-breaker for me because, frankly, fundies are a big pain-in-the-ass to work with/for. I speak from experience.

[dugaresa]

39. the fundie part is the problem and i am seeing those problems in our office

we have a fundie that is just a hot head and I don't know if fundie=hothead, but he has started leaving racist posters around our office. it is upsetting people. everyone knows it is him but no one sees him do it. however they get torn down, and right back up they go. the problem is that he comes in to work at odd hours. our office is very close to his home. so the guy could very well be coming in at 3am to hang the posters and go home.

he has also demonstrated some really angry behavior but has not yet crossed the line, the problem is that he approaches the line, touches it and then backs off. but his doing this multiple times has led people to just be fed up with him.

[JHB]

84. Set up a webcam as a hidden camera viewing place where posters are left...

...and catch him in the act (or exonerate him, if it's actually someone else).

[dugaresa]

94. that is very possibly underway, I stay out of it as it is really an HR issue

my favorite was his threatening email to a bunch of us. the person who took the most offense to it was one of his favorite republican buddies.

[paulsby]

40. so you admit to violating title VII of the civil rights act of 1964

assuming you have at least 15 employees (if not, you are just violating the spirit of the civil rights law. how PROGRESSIVE!)


***
Title VII of the Civil Rights Act of 1964 prohibits employers with at least 15 employees, as well as employment agencies and unions, from discriminating in employment based on race, color, religion, sex, and national origin. It also prohibits retaliation against persons who complain of discrimination or participate in an EEO investigation. With respect to religion, Title VII prohibits:

--------!!treating applicants or employees differently based on their religious beliefs or practices – or lack thereof – in any aspect of employment, including recruitment, hiring, assignments, discipline, promotion, and benefits (disparate treatment);

subjecting employees to harassment because of their religious beliefs or practices – or lack thereof – or because of the religious practices or beliefs of people with whom they associate (e.g., relatives, friends, etc.);
denying a requested reasonable accommodation of an applicant’s or employee’s sincerely held religious beliefs or practices – or lack thereof – if an accommodation will not impose more than a de minimis cost or burden on business operations; 1 and,
retaliating against an applicant or employee who has engaged in protected activity, including participation (e.g., filing an EEO charge or testifying as a witness in someone else’s EEO matter), or opposition to religious discrimination (e.g., complaining to human resources department about alleged religious discrimination).

[Le Taz Hot]

73. If you can parlay the following:

1) Tell me a little about yourself and

2) What do you like to do in your spare time . . .

and they answer it, into a violation of Title VII, then so be it. No one will ever be able to prove it in a court of law. This is it. I'm the boss, I own the company and I want people in there who will be cooperative and respectful of one another. I don't give a shit if they're religious or not, but I do care if they're a fundy. Why? Because fundies are the ones most likely to be oppositional, counterproductive and unwilling to work with, say, openly gay employees.

[paulsby]

78. so, you are perfectly fine with violating people's civil rights and the CR act of 1964

as long as you can get away with it.

well, at least you are honest about your doing so.

i guess i'll give you points about that. i prefer a civil rights opponent who is honest, to one who isn't.

[Pab Sungenis]

145. It looks to me like the issue isn't religion

but compatibility with co-workers. Or temperament. Not religion.

[Realityhack]

175. Smells that way but without a change in language we can't say for sure.

The real problem is that this person is framing it as a fundamentalist religion issue so hidden or not they ARE breaking the law.
If you open it up and just flunk everyone who is unable to get by in a group environment then you would be fine.

[cherokeeprogressive]

164. "No one will ever be able to prove it in a court of law." So your bigotry is well hidden.

Good for you.

[Le Taz Hot]

190. Welcome to the grown up world.

:shrug:

[Lasher]

14. Probably not.

That would be one strike against them and if there were other applicants with no strikes I would pick them.

[Kaleva]

17. I wouldn't reject an applicant because they were home schooled.

How I feel about home schooling should have no bearing on determining if the applicant was qualified or not.

[izquierdista]

18. When you dismiss the homeschooled

You make the assumption that the public school that was available to them was "adequate". There are some dreadful public schools in the US that are graduating functional illiterates. Rather than make a blanket statement about a line on a resume, one needs to find out about the person on the resume.

[LiberalFighter]

20. I would probably tend not to hire someone that was home schooled.

If their application indicated that their schooling was lacking. Such as poor spelling provided it was a necessity for the job. Whether the home schooler was qualified to home school their kids would be another issue.

On the topic of home schooling here in Indiana the Superintendent of Schools wants to require teachers to have a degree in the subject they teach rather than the tools needed to teach. But of course that won't be required for home schoolers.

[Critters2]

195. Right. Anyone, regardless of credentials or lack thereof, can homeschool.

Makes no sense to me. I have a lot of teachers and administrators in my congregation. They are constantly doing continuing ed, are encouraged to get advanced degrees, to offer a good education to the children in this community. And then I'm in stores during the day, and see the kids being "homeschooled" by parents who, well, hardly seem qualified.

Makes no sense to me.

[Orrex]

21. Only if the applicant was wearing a tight sweater

Or he agreed to bring pizza for the office every Friday.

[customerserviceguy]

22. Most of them have been adequately socialized, a few have not

You'll figure that out in the first five minutes of an interview. And I'd bet the ones who are properly socialized will show up at that interview dressed neatly, not chewing gum, and not taking calls on their cell phones during the interview.

But, if you've dismissed them from the get-go, I wouldn't expect you to know that. They'll probably go to work for your competitor, who will see past your prejudice. It used to be that way with racial minorities, too.

[Tim01]

23. Homeschoolers are frequently much more advanced and better at problem solving.

Not always, but frequently.

They are often socially awkward. If the job is in sales, they may not be the best pick. The more the job is about being a self starter and finding solutions or answers, the more likely the home schooler will do better than others.

[Dr_Willie_Feelgood]

44. Religion is not the only reason for home-schooling

Beyond that, many home-schooling parents go out of their way to put kids in social situations that are far more positive than the daily grinding hell of public school.

But I guess we have an obligation to throw our kids to the bullies and bigots and other destructive personalities in order to assure they have proper social skills.

[Tim01]

61. My daughter went to high school for 1 year. She said it was a waste of time.

She said it was mostly about moving from place to place, and socializing, and memorizing. Not much actual learning going on.

She got a 1540 on her SAT.

I fall under the very broad term Neo Pagan.


She tells me I am very well self educated. I wouldn't know since I didn't graduate high school.

[PVnRT]

153. Care to back that up with some evidence?

Or is that just anecdotal?

[TxRider]

185. Read on..

http://www.academicleadership.org/emprical_research/State_Regulation_of_Homeschooling_and_Homeschoolers_SAT_Scores.shtml

[Tim01]

Nailed it. Thanks.

"The home educated in grades K to 12 have scored, on average, at the 65th to 80th percentile on standardized academic achievement tests in the United States and Canada, compared to the public school average of the 50th percentile. In order to lend some control to the aspect of students’ background demographics, researchers have explored and found that children in homeschool families with low income and in which the parents have little education are also scoring, on average, above state-school averages (Ray, 2000a, 2005; Rudner, 1999). In addition, studies have shown that whether the parents have ever been certified teachers has a weak or no relationship to their children’s academic achievement."

[paulsby]

24. what you are saying smacks of elitism and arguably bigotry

since home schooling and religious conservatism is somewhat correlated in the public's eye (although there are certainly a fair # of liberals, libertarians, etc. who home school).

how about choosing somebody based on their MERITS and THEIR choices. kids (generally) don't make the choice to be homeschooled, and fwiw homeschooled kids do VERY well in most standardized tests and other objective measures of learning.

regardless, judge individuals on their merits.

would you (for example) pass over a BYU graduate vs. a UC Santa Cruz graduate?

[cherokeeprogressive]

166. "would you (for example) pass over a BYU graduate vs. a UC Santa Cruz graduate?" Rest assured

that he would.

Heck, he'd probably even put an application back into the ignore pile if the applicant was from Utah but went to school somewhere else.

[madokie]

25. Not at all

I know several people who were home schooled and they are as solid as anyone I know regardless of where they went to school.
The line I used in my many different jobs searches was I heard or read, whatever the case may be, that you all are looking for a good hard worker. Here I am and when do I start and how much you gonna pay me. Never was turned down either using that approach.

[rucky]

26. There are good reasons that some parents decide to homeschool.

And some really bad reasons that other parents make the decision.

You wouldn't know it just from an application.

[BoneDaddy]

29. Yes

If they met the requirements for the job I was asking for and was the most qualified applicant.

[EndersDame]

32. My boyfriend's hippie mom homeschooled all of her kids

They are three of the smartest people I know . She has a degree in Anthropology it is not like she is some uneducated hick. They were taught in a holistic manner. She took her kids to townhall meetings (back when they were civil forums) and had them take part in the political process.When they were learning about plants they grew them (organically) Certainly the quality of ones education can be vastly improved when its a 1 to 1 situation with a teacher (mom or dad) who is heavily invested in the kid.

The youngest of the three wanted to go to "regular" highschool this year. When here mom enrolled her the school administrators look down on her daughter because she was homeschooled and said very snidely "well you have to pass the TAKS and then will THINK about letting you go to 9th grade."
She took the TAKS and got a perfect score on all of the tests except for math on which sshe scored a 97. Needless, to say she dropped out after a week because of the lack of intelligent students and transferred to a hippie charter school.

[comtec]

54. LOL great story

but you realize the home schoolers now a days may be less intelligent.
But I agree, back when, home-schooled kids tended to at least be much much smarter than run of the mills.

For me, it'd honestly lie in the interview.

i would interview a home schooler just to see if they really had any sense.
if they did, I imagine they'd be well qualified.

[EndersDame]

64. The daughter I was talking about just now entered the 9th grade

I think that there are two types of homeschoolers, the smart creative type and the fundie conservative type.

[comtec]

67. She sounds smart as whip

I hope she's started taking classes in the local CC.
At least in the bay area DVC had classes for very advanced high school kids.
It was always amusing to see a 15 yo walking around knowing they're probably smarter than I am!

[EndersDame]

89. She is also very mature and responsible

More so than most adults I know lol. She obtained a loan and worked it off at some stables and got herself a horse (something she has been passionate about since she was 2) I am amazed at the work she puts into raising the horse(grooming riding feeding arraigning for its shoes to be taken care of . She even arraigned a way for it to be kept at some stables for free (by giving pony rides to kiddos)Most people I know can't keep a plant living or barely take care of

[Mariana]

81. It's a shame the school administrators treated her that way.

Some of them seem to forget who the hell they work for. They are there for the benefit of the students, NOT the other way around!

My homeschooled daughter enrolled in public school in Texas this year, in the 9th grade. Fortunately she had a very different experience. No TAKS, no condescension, they were very welcoming and acted pleased that she was enrolling. They even placed her in 10th grade math (Geometry) without a hassle when I showed that she had already completed Algebra 1.

[Statistical]

33. In my field (computer science) I have learned resumes are next to useless.

I have seen people with a Masters in Computer science who can't write code.
I also seen people with no Degree who ended up being the most productive software engineers we have.

To prejudge someone based on 'home school' is stupid. It doesn't just hurt the applicant it also hurts the company.

Some 'home schooled' students are duds and some are off the charts. Hell a substantial % of public school students graduate despite not reading at a high school level. Should you dismiss all public school students based on the fact that some can't read?

[JNelson6563]

35. Probably wouldn't play into my decison.

It's the work experience I look at mostly and life experience. If that is applicable or impressive in some way I interview them. Everything after that depends on what I think of them after speaking with them and asking pertinent questions/getting their answers.


Julie

[cherish44]

36. I've known people with GEDs who have been better workers than people with college degrees

Education is only one part of it. I mean come on, our previous president had degrees from Yale and Harvard and he was about as useful as "tits on a steer" (old country expression).

[Pool Hall Ace]

37. Of course! I would hire Ava in a heartbeat.

My niece only completed up to the 8th grade, but she's very good with networking, and one of the smartest people I know. She is also an athiest, and one of the kindest people I know.

[Dr_Willie_Feelgood]

38. Definitely the kids fault!

They should have INSISTED their parents send them to public school!

:sarcasm:

I think the important question is - are they qualified for the position? Screwing with someone's livelihood over something they had little or no control over is WRONG - whether skin color, sexual orientation, or where their parents sent them to school.

[get the red out]

41. It depends on the kind of homeschooler they were

There would be no way the wing nut type of homeschooler could work in any kind of multicultural environment. A result of being isolated and having right wing religious hate drilled into you by paranoid parents. Not all home schoolers are this way at all, but many are religious nuts.

I know a young woman from a very liberal family that homeschooled her due to a health issue, she then went to a public University. The nuts wouldn't send their kids to anything but some far right Bob Jones or Liberty type University because of fear of mind contamination. So they would be worth a look if they went to a University that wasn't known for religious insanity.

If the person indicated that they had been home schooled because of health issues, terrible local schools, different learning style, or being gay in an abusive school system etc..that is would be a different matter to me than the religious homeschoolers. There would probably be some give-aways on the resume on this. Righties think it looks really good on resumes to list all their Church affiliations and activities. More normal people emphasize other things.

[Sancho]

43. I would usually avoid the home-schooled candidate...

unless there is other external evidence of qualifications - it's hard to waste time on someone who may or may not have knowledge and skills. With people that have diplomas and degrees, you can see transcripts and judge the quality of the educational institution. You likely also have a source of references, test scores, or grades from multiple teachers. With home-schooled, the details are missing.

There may be some brilliant home-schooled, self-schooled, or even unschooled people; but it is pretty costly to risk hiring without a track record.

The home-schooled person should be prepared to apply with an equivalent track record or they'll be overlooked.

[Kaleva]

45. Are we talking about people right out of high school age?

What kind of track record can an 18 or 19 year old have?

[stray cat]

46. yes why not? Some are much better educated then our bulk public schools

[MineralMan]

47. Seems to me that the only situation where this question

would arise is for a very basic entry-level job. For any other type of job, experience will be a better measure. If I were hiring a kid right out of high school, I'd probably skip the home-schooler applications, and let someone else give those kids their first job. In other cases, where job experience was listed, I'd look at that first.

Eliminating fundies from consideration is a delicate thing. It's hard to ask questions that would reveal the fundamentalism without falling prey to religious discrimination. However, for the extreme fundies, it's almost impossible for them not to mention their religion in any conversation lasting more than a minute.

[sense]

227. You'd just discriminate? Great.

[Jeff In Milwaukee]

48. It would depend on the job...

If the job could be done by a high school graduate, then a home-schooled kid could almost certainly do it.

[stray cat]

49. Would you hire someone just because they went to a traditional highschool?

Do you really think all of our public schools 100% graduate really good candidates for jobs?

Thats like saying you trust insurance companies to be competent and do the right thing because thats their business.

[Odin2005]

51. Uh, Yes. Most homeschooled people are NOT fundy wackos.

[stray cat]

52. Would you hire someone from our public school system or reject them out of hand?

[Progressive_In_NC]

77. Exactly! It's like saying I only hire kids from expensive private schools

Because some public schools have a 50% literacy rate in HIGH SCHOOL. There are tons of good home schools and public schools out there, it should always depend on the person.

[tammywammy]

53. Sure I would hire a home schooler

The same assumptions you have about home schoolers apply to kids that go to public school: "There are certainly examples of well educated children who were home schooled and others who are not."

Edited to add: I would at least interview them, no problem. If they fulfilled the requirements for the job I wouldn't hold them being home schooled against them.

[Tuesday Afternoon]

56. Wasn't Ava homeschooled?

[Crabby Appleton]

95. Yes, I think so.

[KamaAina]

139. Indeed she was.

And if she were the applicant, I'd hire her in (literally) a New York minute! :loveya:

[pipi_k]

59. I would. And the first step would start

with not passing over the person's application.

"Home schooled" doesn't equal ignorant. In some minds, the term "home schooled" merely equals Republican. In fact, some people even think it's a sure sign that the person is, or was raised by, Republicans/Conservatives.

The person may or may not be the best for the job, but how is anyone going to know unless there's an interview?

Before I rejected a whole group of people out of hand, I'd want to know why I was doing it.

[Shrek]

63. In a heartbeat

My son was home-schooled, and my exposure to other home-schooled kids has been uniformly positive.

[eilen]

65. I would consider homeschooled applicants in a heartbeat

Often they have a wider range of experiences, including work experiences as the bulk of their days are not tied up in the traditional HS day and sport practices (which take up an inordinately large amount of time).

My friend homeschooled her kids and they held jobs, internships, participated in 4H in which they competed in public speaking and varied activities. They also travelled all over the country as well as overseas. They won scholarships and one into the Naval Academy. I don't know if she homeschooled them out of religious reasons (she is religious but I don't know what religion, she is not a pusher) or just because she didn't like the public school environment. Our city schools are not in the best shape and are run somewhat like reform schools.

I also worked with a young nurse who was homeschooled and then chose to attend a very small private boarding school (religious based). Her family is very conservative Catholic. Anyway, she was a delight and picked things up very quickly, wonderful with patients. It was her choice to attend a school for high school as she felt her preceptors were not sufficiently guiding her with her studies. She comes from a large family (remember, conservative Catholic) and the school she went to was also the same religion. She attended a Catholic nursing school as well. However, I did not feel that she had issues or a moral/political axe to grind at all. To her, religion was personal and she never was overt or judgmental-- unlike an aide we had on our floor who belonged to an evangelical church and fancied herself a "prophet."

I would disregard religion in my hiring unless it was apparent that the individual would have conflicts with the mission of the job (ie, slaughterhouse and 7th Day Adventist, or Jehovah Witness and Blood donation etc.). However, we did have JW's on the hospital floor that treated many leukemics who required blood transfusions and the other nurses were required to hang the blood for them -- which caused some annoyance on the part of the non-JW nurses.

[Bluerthanblue]

72. you would have been a fool- and

a bigot.

Would you dismiss someone who had a Catholic School background? or look closer at someone who'd been to a Prep- or Private School? People choose homeschooling for a variety of reasons, and educate their children using equally diverse curricula/methods. There are many Progressive home schoolers- and many success stories.

have a look at this thread-

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=251x582

and-
Agatha Christie
Alex Haley
Beatrix Potter
George Bernard Shaw
Margaret Atwood
Mark Twain
Phillis Wheatley
Pearl S. Buck
Robert Frost
Virginia Woolf
Joseph Pulitzer
Alan Alda
Louis Armstrong
Whoopi Goldberg
John Jay
John Marshall
John Rutledge
Sandra Day O’Connor
... and many others.

Pre-judging someone based on something as variable as where they were educated is common- and also wrong. Bush was a Yale Graduate :shrug:


You may want to look at some of John Holt's writings. He was an inspiration to me, as I home schooled my oldest child after he finished Head-Start, through High School.

:hi:

[hamsterjill]

79. Wouldn't automatically disqualify that candidate

But I would consider it a "con" rather than a "pro". I feel that schooling outside of the home offers a better opportunity for the children to develop socially. To learn to deal with the goods and bads of ALL in society instead of only seeing those persons in their "protected" environment. Plus, I simply think it's better for parents to be parents and let professional teachers do the teaching.

I know....flame away if you like. But that's my opinion.

[Dr_Willie_Feelgood]

123. Public School Social Development

http://www.wcpo.com/news/local/story/Violent-Bus-Attack-Caught-On-Tape/G4pWFmlrU0a5JDEri7Q4tA.cspx

Violent Bus Attack Caught On Tape

BELLEVILLE, Ill. -- Two Illinois high school students are charged for their roles in a violent attack on a school bus.

The alleged attack happened while the students rode to class in Belleville, just outside of St. Louis, Monday morning, and the whole thing was caught on tape.

Police say a 17-year-old boy was trying to find a seat on the bus, but no one wanted to let him sit down.

According to police, when he finally sat down with a student, other kids choked him and punched him 15 times.

{ snip }

------------------------------------

Maybe the kid who was beaten was a total asshat.

Or maybe he was a brainiac nerd. Or *gasp* a "sissy boy".

I can think of a lot of good reasons to home school your child which have NOTHING to do with being a fundie.

[hamsterjill]

141. This is a horrible thing!

Although the example you provide is quite extreme, it is undeniably true that horrible things happen in the real world unfortunately. But (again in my opinion) it is best that children be exposed to the real world rather than be sheltered from it. It is by being made aware of both the good and the bad in the world, that they become more adept at dealing with whatever comes their way.

[PVnRT]

154. LOL. One story is apparently the "norm"

Data is not the plural of anecdote.

[Dr_Willie_Feelgood]

170. Schoolyard / schoolbus bullying is NOT rare

I saw fights like this several times growing up. Was the victim in one of them. But that was in the pre-internet age, so it was not widely covered.

What it comes down to is, school is a great place to learn to socialize if you are one of the cool kids. If you are brainy, nerdy, shy, gay, a member of an unpopular religion/race/ethnicity, or otherwise different than the "in" crowd, schools can be a soul sucking hell on earth.

In my particular case, I dealt with it by (a) bulking up and learning to fight back, (b) quit getting good grades and raising my hand, (c) skipping school to go to the public library where I could read in silence, and finally (d) dropping out of school and getting my GED.

[PVnRT]

252. So, then, it's kind of like everything else in our society

Guess what? Not being one of the "cool people" sucks after school, too. Is your solution just to hide away your kids and not give them the opportunity to learn how to deal with it?

No bullying and fights are not rare, but they are also not near as bad as the article you linked to.

[sense]

217. Perhaps you'd have a different opinion if

you had an educated opinion. Home schooling is just a term to describe education outside of the usual public or private system. It doesn't mean that kids are educated at home. My "home schooled" children get their education from many different sources. There are an enormous amount of resources, many free, available to educate children without locking them in with age-mates all day. My eldest chose his own education, for the most part, and speaks six languages and has three years of college credit at age 19.

[hamsterjill]

283. I feel that I do have an educated opinion

I never understand why someone has to get "cocky" just because someone else dares to disagree with them.

I personally know several children who have been home schooled. I just don't think it's the best education for children, generally.

I've never understood why this hits such a nerve. If you are confident that your children are receiving the best, why would you care what anyone else thinks?

[sense]

291. duplicate

[sense]

292. Cocky?

Yes, that's what you are when you insist that you must be correct in your thinking, based on knowing "several" home schooled children. Read the studies, do the research. You're wrong and it should be obvious that you can't base an educated opinion of the tiny little sample you've met. You have no idea what goes into any single child's home schooling experience as each experience is different. Think about what you're saying....one adult to thirty children, compared to one on one. That alone should prompt you to question the pablum someone has fed you. Public school isn't meant to provide the education you think it is.

I don't remotely care what you think, I simply think you shouldn't help spread the propaganda. Try truth.

http://www.johntaylorgatto.com/historytour/history1.htm

[hamsterjill]

295. I'm not spreading anything. I merely responded with my opinion based on a question asked.

It is YOU who can't seem to deal with the fact that someone might dare disagree with you.

Public school provided quite nicely for my own family, thank you very much. You have no idea what goes into any particular public school experience as each of those experiences is different, as well. You should quite spreading propaganda and try a little truth yourself.

But first, you might try some deep breathing and calm yourself down a little.

[sense]

315. Funny!

I'm happy you had a good experience with public school. That doesn't mean it works for everyone. Try learning something about it. Have you read anything posted here, or are you simply defending an indefensible position because you can't admit you might have made a mistake?

[hamsterjill]

323. I've read plenty

Mostly, I've noticed that many of the postings here are being made by people with very low post counts. And that just about every other post has been made by you. Hmmmm...

Were you home schooling today? It's not a holiday, so I would think you would be actively teaching today. If so, you sure have been posting a lot. How much time did you spend teaching your children today versus the amount of time you've spent railing against other people's opinions about what you are doing? You do, of course, maintain regular class times in the home, right?

Yes, I have had a good experience with public school. The fact that you obviously haven't doesn't mean that you should be condemning it for everyone.

Did you have some problem fitting into public school? Were you bullied yourself? Were you victimized and did your parents not come to your defense? Do you carry a grudge against those of us who did have a good experience? Is there some peculiar need on your part to make everyone see that home schooling is in some way superior? If so, you've failed miserably.

As a parent, I have always been very involved in my family's education. If ever there was an issue that needed to be addressed at the school, I was down there in a minute to talk with the appropriate teacher and/or administrator. That's part of the reason why I've had a good experience. Involvement and commitment.

To each his own. Go ahead and home school your child(ren). If that's what you feel is best, do it. It's your right, but that doesn't necessarily make it the right thing to do for all of us.

But in that process, don't act like you are somehow superior to those of us who choose the public school route.

Thank you for the rousing debate, but I'm ending this discussion at this point with my EDUCATED opinion still in place.

[sense]

335. So you thought you'd change the subject and

attack me? Cool. Way to obfuscate. Consider this. Low posting numbers probably mean I'm not spending my days posting here and I'm only posting on subjects I've got some knowledge about. You might try that.

If you'd read the posts, you'd know that home schooling is 24/7. We don't bring home the school model, because it doesn't work. We don't sit around the kitchen table in isolation, reading mythology. Also, even if we did that, it would take only an hour or two a day to cover much more than is covered in public school each day.

I'm not condemning public school, I'm saying that it doesn't work for all and it's not set up to work for all. If it doesn't work, there are alternatives besides private school, religious or not. I'm trying to dispel the myths that you and others are clinging to. Home school is a label and not a description!!!!!

I was involved in my son's school on a daily basis for 4 years. Very little change in 4 years time, means you look for another solution. I can't change anyone but myself, which was proven to me day after day. Involvement and commitment describes home schooling. Most people tell me they couldn't home school because they can't stand to be around their children for that amount of time. I agree! My child was much more difficult to be around when he was so angry about having to sit for 6 hours a day, 5 days a week listening to the teacher explain things he'd learned when he was two, or standing in line, or waiting for the teacher to get the disruptive kids under control.......etc. He was ravenous to learn and school was getting in his way. He began to do math at one and taught himself to read at three. How are kids like that supposed to cram themselves into the "one size fits all" public school.

I'm not remotely superior to you or anyone else. However, I have studied & researched (for years) home schooling and public school, plus I've done it for more than 10 years, been involved in many different home schooling groups, religious and secular and I think I've learned something in all that time. I agree that those who chose to home school to ensure their children are not taught science or other "horrible" subjects shouldn't be doing it. That is not our story, nor is it the story of many, many other home schoolers. The religious home schoolers are in the majority and that's unfortunate, but we do not all need to be painted with that tainted brush. In the last 10-15 years, due to the continued dumbing down and NCLB many more people have chosen a different path for academic reasons.

Bury your head in the sand if you like.

[proteus_lives]

82. Yes I would hire them if they were qualified.

You shouldn't discount people because they were raised differently.

You're lucky didn't pass your desk. If you rejected because of your bias and they found out, lawsuit time. They would win and they would be in the right.

[slackmaster]

83. That would not be a reason for me not to hire someone

:shrug:

[mind mountain]

87. Why--were you home-schooled?

Because you speak of being well-educated and yet I see that you have a problem discerning plurals and possessives (second line where you say 'one's). Doesn't mean that you are not intelligent or well-educated, but I am actually offended by your question. You are prejudiced because of the fundie aspect, I am sure. You're from WV and you see it all around you and associate it with ignorance and intolerance. I have a brilliant solution for you, champ! Get.the.fuck.out.of.WV.then.

Oh, and home-schooled kids score better on college entrance exams, Sparky.:eyes:

[Ruby the Liberal]

92. I have worked with highly intelligent people who were homeschooled. The missing

element always seemed to be a lack of appropriate social skills.

[sense]

228. Which means you've missed out on some great people.

Don't allow that to obscure your view. Most of the home schoolers I know have completely appropriate, if not superior social skills. I'm sorry you haven't met them. They're out there in large numbers.

[Brickbat]

96. If she or he were the right person for the job, yes. I know several homeschoolers, and while I

object to homeschooling in general, I cannot argue with the results my friends have come up with.

Homeschooling would not be the make-or-break in the hiring decision. Can the person do the job? That's it.

[gmoney]

97. Would you even know?

Isn't home schooling somehow accredited through the local school system? Don't they have to take some sort of exams as they go along to ensure they're making progress and have a final testing to ensure they meet the minimum requirements? Then I believe they're awarded a diploma from the Wherever Local School District, no? So when they go to get a job, they'd put what school system they were in, not "graduated from Momma's Kitchen Table Academy," right? There are enforced standards for the protection of the kids, right?

[Shrek]

131. It varies by state

My son was home-schooled and was never monitored or tested by any local school system (not required under state law).

The level of home-school regulation varies widely from state to state.

[theophilus]

98. YES! n/t

[Maru Kitteh]

99. The new movement is homeschooling for college education.

If someone home-schooled for high school but then spent 2 - 4 years in a secular, diverse college I wouldn't necessarily dismiss them out of hand. You can't really hold the decisions of (largely) fundie, whacko parents against their kids. Many decisions would of course be dependent on the level of education required for the job, but I would not hire anyone who's only education took place at home.

If I see a homeschooled applicant who, after obtaining the age of legal free will, chose to remain in that little bubble and homeschool for college, that application can't make it into the trash can fast enough.

[sybylla]

102. I might interview them, but they'd have a lot more to prove to me.

Same with parochial and voucher school grads.

Like them or not, public schools in my state have to answer to a set of standards. The rest don't. I would look over candidates who got their education in a non-public way much more closely.


on edit: plus there's the whole socialization thing. You can argue it doesn't exist, but three of the four homeschoolers I know prove it does. And the one who doesn't actually sends her kids to public school.

[Kaleva]

105. What do they have to prove?

Very few 18-20 year olds are hired to do jobs of great importance.

[sybylla]

168. Yeah, I've never seen a 16 year old running a cash register

or an 18 year old working in a bank or a 20 year old entering data. By 21 (just barely), I had worked my way through all those jobs to the quality assurance department of a credit company where I was trouble-shooting customer problems, working with computer programmers to fix or improve the processing and reporting system and answering questions for our sales staff - all on a diploma from a public high school.

Either you weren't doing anything "important" when you were 18-20 or you think "unimportant" jobs don't require a decent high school education.

[TxRider]

172. Good then you should be looking for home schooled kids

As they on average score 30% or more higher in academics than public schooled kids.

And they are assessed by the very same people, the local school district, for their diplomas.

[sybylla]

174. Then they won't mind showing me their awesome test results

And you won't mind providing me with a link to back up your claim.

You should also know that making a blanket statement about test scores, the kinds of tests and who 'assesses' them is a huge fail. Every state promulgates their own education regulations beyond the minimum federal requirements. Some are much stricter than others. I can imagine that if we're talking about Texas, you might have low-balled your percentage.

[TxRider]

182. Sure thing..

They have to be accredited by the state, by the local schools to get a diploma. Parents can't justhand them out...

And studies also show that different levels of state regulation have no bearing on it. Lax or heavy regulations the home schoolers still out pace public schoolers.

http://www.academicleadership.org/emprical_research/State_Regulation_of_Homeschooling_and_Homeschoolers_SAT_Scores.shtml

[sybylla]

187. Except in my state

the only way for a homeschooler to get a diploma is through a GED.

Now a test like that wouldn't self-select to advantage a homeschooler, would it? :sarcasm:

[TxRider]

188. So you wouldn't hire someone with a GED?

Is that what your saying?

[Kaleva]

194. I doubt it was your high school diploma that got you those jobs

My guess is that you developed a reputation early on for being a hard worker, reliable, trustworthy, intelligent and honest and that opened doors for you. It wasn't the high school diploma that wowed them.

[ProgressiveProfessor]

104. More kneejerk anti homeschooling bigotry

They not all homeschoolers are xtian fundie idiots. The thread is full of counter examples.

At times due to where we lived (OCONUS), we home schooled or supplemental schooled our daughters.

[ddeclue]

107. NO - I think that home "schooling" is about as realistic for most parents as "home brain surgery"

[Ex Lurker]

183. I used to think that until I actually met a home school family

It's clearly not for everybody, and I think it becomes problematic at the HS level when subjects like Chemistry have to be taught. But I see no reason why elementary subjects can't be taught a reasonably intelligent adult. Most school teachers aren't rocket scientists, either. Not that I'm slamming them, but they're by and large no smarter than anyone else.

[Critters2]

196. +1 nt

[TxRider]

197. Quite true, a family with both parents working full time it's not realy an option

If they work away from home.

[sense]

229. You're showing your ignorance.

Read much? Home schooling is just a name. It doesn't mean the child was kept at home in a closet or at the kitchen table. Home schooling is 24/7 and we're rarely home!

[liberalhistorian]

108. Hell, no, I wouldn't do it, and I think it's nothing more

than blatant discrimination to do so. It's like a conservative saying they wouldn't even consider hiring anyone from an inner-city high school, without ever knowing anything else about them. You, my friend, would be practicing discrimination, and that's disgusting. There are a vast number of reasons why people home school and it often has nothing to do with any kind of religious beliefs. There are large numbers of non-religious and even liberal home schoolers. And it doesn't matter what the reason is, anyway, often home-schooled students are just as informed and educated, and sometimes even more so, than "regular" graduates.

[Orrex]

124. I'm having trouble parsing your subject line with your message text

Brain. Hurt.

[liberalhistorian]

140. The OP asked if we would do what he did, reject

home-schooled applicants automatically, and I said no and stated why. Hope that eases your brain pain.

[Orrex]

184. Ah! That sort of helps.

I was reading your subject line as a direct response to the OP's subject line:

Would you hire a job applicant who was Home-schooled?

When you said "Hell, no, I wouldn't do it..." I got confused about how that meshed with your text.


But if your subject line is read as a response to the OP as a whole, it makes sense.


Got it now--thanks!

[scheming daemons]

109. yeah....to clean my pool

or any other manual labor job.

Anything that requires a higher level of education... Not in a million years.

Discriminatory?

Absolutely.

[Kaleva]

117. I'd consider hiring a high school grad to clean my pool

but nothing much more then that. A high school diploma doesn't tell me if they have a good work ethic, are reliable, are honest and are physically able to to the job.

[Fire1]

119. Absolutely not. n/t

[Kaleva]

126. Be they home schooled or not matters little to me for the following reasons.

The kind of work I do can be hard, dirty and even dangerous if one doesn't pay attention. I need someone who is physically strong, can understand instructions, is willing to do dirty, hard work, and is reliable and honest. I wouldn't send out a kid, even if they graduated #1 in their high school class, out on a installation job all by themselves. Not until they've had several years experience in the trade and have proven they can do all the tasks required.

A newbie isn't going to be doing much more then getting the tools, helping lift heavy items, making coffee runs and cleaning up the job site.

[BlooInBloo]

133. If he or she were bright enough, and not obviously crazy, sure...

I would most certainly ask more probing questions about the nature of their education, of course.

[gatorboy]

135. Would you have hired someone that had an online college degree?

[BlooInBloo]

137. Almost certainly not...

As their almost-certain ineptitude would be almost-certain to come out in the interview.

[TCJ70]

147. My dad is taking online college courses at the moment...

...it's no joke. I've seen the things he has to do to get a good grade and it seems more intense than what I did at the university I attended. Have you ever taken an online course?

[lumberjack_jeff]

152. Darn tootin.

The only good education comes from real schools with names like "Phillips academy" and "Harvard" and "Yale".



If we don't weed out applicants with liberal use of stereotype and bias, we might have to work really hard.

[BlooInBloo]

155. It's true - not all people whom I wouldn't hire are from online "universities"...

I don't recall saying otherwise.

[lumberjack_jeff]

207. Having multiple biases is your defense?

I've had equally good luck interviewing the first 20 resumes to hit my desk as I had at carefully prescreening.

Arguably, it's fairer to the applicants because I can't apply any bigoted stereotypes I might hold.

[BlooInBloo]

288. Of course: In hiring I'm biased against incompetence, irresponsibility...

and several other things.

[lumberjack_jeff]

296. No, you're using a stereotype of homeschooled people as a proxy for incompetence. n/t

[BlooInBloo]

350. Uh.... this subthread is about online degrees, tiger. I answered the homeschool question...

One post above the subthread. Please try to keep them straight.

[Realityhack]

143. No. And I think you are dead wrong for doing so.

Home schooled does not mean completely without education. It means they were taught in a different environment. The most common reason for this is religious and such individuals might have 'interesting' ideas about certain areas but be perfectly fine for your job. Another reason is very high IQ which can result in issues with normal public schools. Those students might actually be more knowledgeable than you are.

Something to think about. Colleges accept home schooled children, including prestigious and high end schools. The issue is the individual person.

We all know someone with a high school diploma who is a complete idiot except on paper. Most of us know a few college grads like that too. Credentials != Skill

[Realityhack]

177. Doh... should read yes I would hire them.

[Gedankenaustausch]

146. I wouldn't hire them either.

I know quite a few "homies" and they enjoy.... how shall i put it.... the art of quitting tasks early. They have trouble staying committed, dealing with personal differences, etc. It's like they aren't well socialized as other kids. I think the horrors of public school produce better people, that is, if they survive! But, I would not hire someone if they were home-schooled. Just purely for that reason. Their parents should have known the danger.

Maybe you should give them the opportunity to be personally interviewed. Some are socialized quite well, it really depends on their parents, and how active of a role they took in their activities. I would interview them.

[Cleita]

149. Maybe grammar school, but nothing beyond that especially high school.

I would want to know that they went to an accredited high school. Unless the parents were qualified teachers, I don't think the average parent has the knowledge to teach high school subjects.

[sense]

316. Home schooling

doesn't mean that Mom taught them everything they know. It's a label, not a description of their education. My home schooled son speaks 6 languages. I speak one. He followed his interests and had the time, while not locked up in school, to pursue his education in a wide variety of venues.

[mzteris]

376. Do you think these people ever heard the term

"autodidact"? much less understand it!

:banghead:


edit to fix the fact that my son set characters to "Chinese". :eyes:

[The Straight Story]

150. As opposed to public schooling? Hell yes

:)

[lumberjack_jeff]

151. I ABSOLUTELY would.

some of the most intelligent people I know were home schooled.

Specific example, I have friends who raised their children aboard a sailboat cruising the south pacific and caribbean. Those kids know the world is much larger than their publicly schooled peers do.

[aroach]

156. Pretty sure my home educated kids wouldn't want to work for you anyway.

Your loss. You're passing on a kid that could read at two and at age six is about six years ahead of the public schooled kids his age.

My daughter is not as academically inclined but she's a spitfire - strong-willed, articulate, and with great leadership skills that might put her in a real position to make a difference one day.

[Donald Ian Rankin]

157. Only if they had verifiable qualifications too.

As the first step of any application procedure, shortlisting down to those candidates with qualifications is fairly standard.

If someone has been homeschooled, taken exams and passed, then the fact that they were homeschooled would not in any way be a reason not to hire them.

If someone has been homeschooled and doesn't have any evidence of what they've learned, it's not usually worth taking the time to interview them on the offchance.


For what it's worth, I'm all in favour of homeschooling if it's done well - I have several friends who have done extremely well out of it - but I think that it *has* to include taking and passing nationally-recognised qualifications.

[cbdo2007]

158. I would do what's best for the business and hire whoever I thought would do the best job.

I know plenty of college graduates are horrible employees and people who didn't graduate high school are great employees.

I don't care if someone was raised and taught by wolves, if I think they're going to do a great job at our company then I'll hire them in a heartbeat.

Some people put WAAAAAAY too much stock in degrees and educational background.

[Dreamer Tatum]

165. I've seen about 2500 resumes in my day

and I've YET to see anyone include where/how they went to secondary school.

This thread is basically an excuse to bash people who home school, and who are home schooled. And I think almost all of the "examples" of home-schooled "fundies" are either overblown or totally made up.

The anti-religious bigotry here is such that anyone even remotely suspected of being religious in any way, shape, or form is generally pushed into the "fundie" hole.

Ridiculous. Anyone who examines someone's primary and/or secondary education as a contributing factor to a hiring decision is probably hiring a teenager, anyway.

[TBF]

169. Agreed, as a recruiter and hiring manager for 15+ years I paid

very little attention to secondary. The only exceptions were the candidates who included the info because they were honors graduates or went to a particular private high school. Usually folks just list school name with "graduated" or GED if they're looking for basic work, or their training/colleges if they are professional. I actually think I would've pulled one in for an interview if I came across it because it would stand out, but I never came across it in thousands of resumes. Most hiring managers are looking for specific abilities, degrees, maybe GPA cutoffs for entry level, etc... something like religious orientation is not going to cross your mind.

[Le Taz Hot]

254. Just of the record,

most employers require that you also fill out an application and that's where the secondary school information comes in.

[tsuki]

167. There were many who opted for home schooling here when the

fundies took over the school system. They home schooled, then sent their children to community college when they entered 11th. The school system had to pick up the bill for books and tuition. They graduated with an AA at the school system's expense.

[Courtesy Flush]

173. My experience with home schooling

I work in social services. On a rare occasion I have come into contact with a home-schooled child who is getting an education.

In my area home schooling is not so much a way for parents to educate their own children as it is a legal way to let children drop out of school. Often the parents had neglected their children's education to the point that they risked getting into trouble with the law, so they filled out whatever papers they needed to call themselves home schoolers, and the kids never cracked a book again. My wife has worked in the school system for decades and has observed the same thing.

I've heard the same stories you have. I know some kids get excellent educations at home, but I think they are not a majority.

[sense]

232. You work in social services.....

That explains why you're not meeting the varied population of home schoolers, so that you'd have a better perspective.

[SidneyCarton]

176. Depend on the skills and the qualifications needed for the job.

If the person had other data on his/her resume that indicated that they did, I would not necessarily see homeschooling as a problem.

[TheKentuckian]

179. I would and have considered each applicant on their merit and fit for the position

compared to the other applicants. I don't generally believe in home schooling as a concept but I have no question that sometimes it works out okay and even better than normal in certain cases. If the person had attended college or some other post high school training then I'd probably write it off entirely unless I had socialization concerns or something.

[politicat]

180. Home-school education can be very good, but it's not the only issue.

A few years ago, I had a number of college-aged, home-schooled students come through a program where I was a TA. They were about 10% ish of the total 400-ish in the program, but some of the criteria my prof tasked the TAs assigned to that group to assess were group interactions on projects, punctuality, and requests for advisement. (None of these criteria affected the grades issued and the data collection was not individualized; the data was all quantitative, not subjective. My senior prof was starting to think about doing a research project on the psychological aspects of home school and wanted an informal data set to use as a jumping off point before designing the larger study. This is not abnormal; we could have easily done something similar with public vs private; participation in scouting vs participation in 4-H; or solo sports vs team sports.)

The students were all freshmen and sophomores taking an introductory survey level (Psych 101) class, divided into two classes, at a public land-grant university; 75% were in-state, 80% had some sort of need-based non-loan financial aid; the HS students were not clumped into their own working units, but distributed throughout the working groups.

(Working from memory of doing the stats, so I'm rounding) The groups with a home-schooled student were 50% more likely to report difficulties dividing and prioritizing the group work-load. They were 30% more likely to have one or more elements turned in late or to request an extension on one or more elements of the project (they were allowed 3 extensions of 3 days over 9 functional tasks). They requested TA advisement 60% more often. The projects those groups turned in were academically proficient, sometimes excellent, but the curve of scores looked identical to the curve of groups lacking a home-schooled student. If two home-schooled students were in a working unit, they requested advisement 85% more often and the difficulties in work-load reports jumped to 65%, but improved the academic results by 5-10%.

With that data in mind (and yes, there are hundreds of other variables at play here and there's a reason the study is still being designed) were I the person in charge of choosing who got an interview or not, I'd have to consider the job. If the job being interviewed for has clear boundaries, requires independent work on a flexible schedule, I'd have no problems. If it requires significant levels of team interaction, consistently hard deadlines, and minimal supervision... I'd really have to look at other work experience first. I would not eliminate someone based entirely on home-school, but I'd need further documentation.

The one thing a group education (public, private or charter) does that no home school, no matter how enriched, will ever do is teach a very young child to function as part of a group under extremely divided adult supervision. Twenty first graders in a room with one teacher and one aide have a vastly different set of work-socialization skills than three kids of varying ages who are all related or otherwise closely associated being taught by an adult with a familial relationship. The first graders are in an environment every day where they must meet communal expectations (sit still, pay attention, cooperate with non-kin, show up every day, follow a regimented schedule). In home school, it's all too easy for the inherent flexibility to win out over discipline (not punishment). No amount of soccer, group field trips, music lessons or other enrichment can take the place of 8 hours a day of the extremely subtle set of skills a group education provides.

Home school is great for turning out either independent thinkers with a holistic, sometimes amazingly innovative, approach to education, or those who excel at rote subjects (mathematics, spelling) (this because there are two prime methods of doing home school -- the freedom to learn method and the (for lack of better term) withdrawal from the local community method -- and both sides of the political spectrum use both methods, so this isn't an ideology issue), but it's not as good for instilling self-direction (a lot of home-schoolers in college need more advisement because they're accustomed to working one-on-one with a tutor), punctuality and time management (a lot of home schoolers work on one subject a time, so managing a 12 credit course load in 3-4 different subjects can be overwhelming; they do far better with the Colorado College/University of Phoenix method) and for learning to cooperate as part of a group when members aren't necessarily homogeneous on any criteria save age and zip code. (Home schooling affinity groups tend to be far more homogeneous in outlook and world view even than suburban public schools -- rarely will you find the atheist, holistic education types sharing text books or trips to the Science Museum with the fundamentalist, regimented types.)

One other note: my sister is both a public school teacher and a tutor for home-schooled kids -- she teaches science to middle-schoolers and science and math to homeschoolers in Missouri and Southern Illinois. She's actually a vocal advocate for both methods because she sees that both have strengths and weaknesses. Her analogy is kids are like rocks. Putting 20 in a classroom is like putting 20 rocks in a tumbler. The rough edges get worn off so socially, the kids are a lot easier to handle, and the world flows more smoothly over them because they're exposed consistently to the dominant culture. Home schooled kids don't get that smoothing process as fully, so they may be (given that they're actually being educated -- this is a known problem) academically sharper, but are likely to have more issues fitting into the larger contextual world (and by that, she doesn't mean being popular or fitting into group ed roles; she means things like separating from the family unit, getting and maintaining independence, maintaining jobs.)

I suppose what this boils down to is: Academics aren't everything when it comes to holding a job. The social and cultural aspects are just as important. Someone who has never done get up, go to school, come home for years on end may not be great for doing get up, go to work, come home.

[Xithras]

181. High school diplomas are a fairly worthless benchmark of intelligence nowadays.

You're correct in assuming that a home school education provides no assurances of actual educational level, but neither do modern high school diplomas. Public high schools today regularly graduate students with incredibly poor grasps of reading, writing, comprehension, and mathematics.

Let's be honest here...if a student applies for a position that only requires a 12th grade education, it's a fairly low-skill position anyway, so their educational history is probably unimportant. Anything requiring acquired skills is going to require additional training and certifications, or a college degree. If they have completed those, the first part of their education becomes irrelevant.

FWIW, I've hired a home schooled person before. He went to college, obtained a degree, and entered the workforce like anyone else. His primary school education was irrelevant.

[AngryOldDem]

186. Depends.

Sorry, but I can't deal in hypotheticals.

[anigbrowl]

189. Sure, as long as it wasn't 'jesus told me to tell you to hire me'.

Sorry OP, this e-peenery fails to impress.

[ohheckyeah]

198. I see nothing wrong with basing a hiring decision based on

one person's place of education over another's. Don't Harvard graduates usually get preference over a graduate of cornfield tech?

[DireStrike]

199. It would be a "negative, pending investigation" in my calculations -nt-

[sense]

233. That's the point

You shouldn't automatically count anyone out based on one small thing on an app., without an interview.

[Raine]

201. Possibly I might ... some lefties are home schooled

for various reasons. My BF's nephew was home schooled ... the destrict was very conservative plus he was bullied continually.

[timtom]

202. NOW I remember why I had you on

[burning rain]

204. Kids don't choose to be homeschooled, as a rule.

While homeschooling puts me on the lookout for control freaks and religious maniacs, people deserve to be judged as individuals. Whatever group propensities may be, an individual from that group is a nut (or whatever), or he isn't. I might ask, though, what languages the applicant spoke. If they said, "Any, when the Holy Spirit takes me," that would be the wrong answer.


:rofl:

[Wizard777]

206. Never mind Home Schooled. We hired a PRESIDENT that was an entirely self educated man.

Abraham Lincoln taught himself everything he knew from books his parents bought him. This is the reason Abraham Lincoln will always be one my great hero's. I often wonder what he could have taught himself with a computer.

[janx]

221. Why was the applicant home-schooled and how well did the parents do?

If the student was home-schooled in an effort to keep him/her ignorant, that will show. It always does. If the student was home-schooled because the parents felt up to the challenge and were devoted to teaching, that will show too.

I DON'T think that pure homeschooling should be undertaken past middle school. When their child reaches high school, most responsible parents want someone with an education and experience in a certain discipline teaching their children.

I've seen great examples of home schooling as well as horrific ones. One of my best students was a young man with a disability who lived with his forest ranger parents out in the middle of a large wilderness area. He ended up in three of my classes. He was intellectually curious, smart as hell, and very willing to contribute in all of those classes. Anybody who hires this guy after he graduates will be very lucky indeed. ;-)

[sense]

234. Sounds like my sons!

"He was intellectually curious, smart as hell, and very willing to contribute in all of those classes. Anybody who hires this guy after he graduates will be very lucky indeed."

[janx]

238. Congratulations!

:hug:

It can't have been easy. Most parents, due to financial and other constraints, can't do it at all, let alone do it well.

[sense]

242. Thanks

I wish more people were able to do it. It really was easier than continuing to fight the public schools for a real education. 4 years was enough.

[GOPisEvil]

230. I learned not to paint with broad brushes at home.

Although I was formally educated in the Texas Public School System for the most part.

[saltpoint]

231. I would. Families can opt out of the public school system under the

law so long as academic standards are met and upheld, whatever "standards" has come to mean in the United States.

I think more should be asked of graduating high school seniors than currently is. I would love to take everyone of the standardized tests used now as instruments of achievement and burn them in an entirely huge bonfire.

In a manner of speaking, Abraham Lincoln was home-schooled. He went to school but it's fair to say that he exceeded most assignments.

There are some lunkheads graduating from the public schools and many socially adept kids coming out of home-school environments.

[sense]

235. Thank you!

We opted out for academic reasons. Our public schools are terribly dumbed down and I feel sorry for the kids who're locked up all day, bored to death.

[saltpoint]

236. Hi, sense. Lincoln must have felt that his learning was a privilege

bordering somewhere on the golden horizon with 'blessing.'

And how far it took him. At first a lot of Washington power-mongers heard his high-pitched squeaky voiced with the deep-hills accent and figured he was a nobody, a fool, a yahoo, a hilljack.

Some years later now the sentences of the Address at Gettysburg slam into the human heart and change the way we think and feel.

Weren't no yahoo doin' all that book learnin' way back in the far hills.

[sofa king]

237. Why sure! If I was a criminal.

If I wanted someone who was deferential to authorities they trusted, easily misled, accepting of hypocrisy, fanatically loyal, racist, and unwilling or unable to understand the mechanics of the physical world, home-schooled kids would be the first place to look.

It's a safe bet that most home-schooled kids are home schooled because their parents are right-wing authoritarians, which gives them a better-than-normal chance to be RWAs themselves.

They're highly useful people, particularly if you're running a criminal operation and need some suckers around to go down with the ship. That's why the Bush Administration staffed some of its most sensitive offices with Patrick Henry graduates. Patrick Henry is also the location of the Home School Legal Defense Association.

[sense]

243. Whoa! Bigoted much?

Safe bet, my ass. Educate yourself. Lots of people home school (not a description, just a label) for academic reasons.

[sofa king]

290. To be clear....

My post above never suggested that all home-schooled kids are RWAs. What I did suggest, and stand by, is that if that's the kind of person for which you are looking, and you don't want to broadcast your search on the Bill O'Reilly forums, home schooling on the resume is an excellent place to start.

For those people--and obviously not you--the isolation of home schooling is the mechanism by which children are steered away from the truth and instead instilled with zealotry and dogma.

As yet another example, see homeschool.com, which in turn will lead you to this article:

http://www.homeschool.com/articles/Stephen_Covey/

And this search:

http://www.homeschool.com/search/search.asp?zoom_query=christian&B1=Search&zoom_and=0&zoom_per_page=10&zoom_sort=0

[sense]

293. You're propagating

mythology and being unfair to all the people who home school by lumping them together as a group. Just as it would be wrong to base your assumptions about someone on any one aspect of who they are, such as race, eye color, height.....it's wrong to prejudice others and spew mythology to make a point.

http://www.johntaylorgatto.com/historytour/history1.htm

[sofa king]

297. Probability is not mythology.

All I'm saying is that if I want to find lunatics to misuse, as the Republicans do, I know where to look, as do they. Unlike any of the other aspects you mention, this one is a matter of choice, and it's chosen, by many people, specifically for the reason I offered above.

That is why the lunatics have institutionalized the practice and strongly defend it.

I'll tell you all what. If you want me to back track on what I've said, find me a non-denominational home schooling association, one that specifically excludes Christianity as a cornerstone of its teaching recommendations, and show me some numbers which suggest their numbers are equal to or greater than that of the pro-Christian, pro-asshole home schooling associations out there. I'll warn you that I already looked, but not so closely that I'm sure you won't find one.

[sense]

318. Lunatics exist throughout the population

Don't assume that just because someone doesn't fit into your little "normal" box that you know anything about them. We all just want fairness. Don't make assumptions or discriminate based on one thing you think you know about someone. We home school for academic reasons. I don't need any sort of home schooling association to make what we do legitimate. My sons are proof that we made the right choice for them.

[sofa king]

333. I used "lunatics" as shorthand for "right wing authoritarians."

Who do not exist throughout the population but rather contract into their own sub-communities of frightened white Christians.

And I am telling you, again, while not all home-school families are RWAs, I am certain that a large proportion of them are.

I should also add, sense, that RWAs are easily identified by hostile outbursts against their world view.

Your slip is starting to show.

[sense]

337. Hostile outbursts?

Hilarious! The fact that a large portion of any population may have certain beliefs doesn't mean that it's ok to paint all with a broad brush, which is what you do when you discriminate. If all you know about someone is they're home schooled, you still only know that they don't spend years locked up with only their same age peers. Nothing more. Home schooling is just a label, meaning that kids are getting an education in some form other than in the system. That's it.

My slip is showing. Paranoid much? There you go stereotyping with no actual info. Discrimination at it's finest!

[mzteris]

360. here are some links for ya. . .

http://www.secularhomeschool.com/viewPage.php?ID=Secular%20Homeschool%20Support%20Groups%20by%20State

http://www.secularhomeschool.com/viewPage.php?ID=Secular%20Homeschooling%20Web%20Sites


and there are many many MANY more groups/co-ops/loops - that are secular and/or "inclusive" meaning they accept everyone regardless of any religion or no religion . . .

[TexasObserver]

239. It would depend entirely on the situation and the person.

So my answer is "yes, I certainly would if circumstances were appropriate."

[AspenRose]

241. The Naval Academy (Annapolis) accepts homeschooled students.

http://www.usna.edu/Admissions/sthome.htm

Coast Guard Academy:

"Home-Schooled Students - AP and SAT Subject Tests recommended. Application should include detailed account of curriculum and course content. Students advised to take courses in math and science at a local college and have professor submit a recommendation. Recommendations from other adults required. Essay should include reasons for undertaking homeschooling, benefits realized, and how experience prepared student to succeed in college."

http://collegesearch.collegeboard.com/search/CollegeDetail.jsp?collegeId=2997&profileId=1

[sense]

244. As do most colleges and Universities.

[mzteris]

377. including Harvard and Yale

In fact, colleges and universities LIKE homeschooled students.

"In 1997, Dr. Irene Prue, Assistant Director of Admission of Georgia Southern University, released a nationwide survey of admissions personnel's knowledge, attitudes and experiences with home educated applicants. The report from most of the colleges and universities that responded was that homeschoolers are academically, emotionally, and socially prepared to succeed at college.' Studies consistently show that homeschooled students are more capable of thinking for themselves and are not so dependent on their peers; this is why a lot of colleges actively recruit them." "

[armyowalgreens]

245. A follow honors college peer of mine was home schooled.

[GodlyDemocrat]

246. I hope your ass was smacked down by the EEOC

[Cid_B]

247. You would be missing out...

I grew up in a very religious area and it permeated all aspects of life to some degree. The decision was made to home school to avoid that influence and I can guarantee my "education" was superior.

So if you are just on a witch hunt for religious folks you are just hurting yourself. Of course, it doesn't sound like you would be much of a joy to work for anyways.

[yodoobo]

248. Sure why not?

What matters most is experience and secondary education.

I'm not aware of any employer that really looks closely at k-12, other than to see that you graduated.

FWIW, I went to a highly rated High School. The year I graduated it was rated the #5 best school in the nation. That and $7.00 will buy me coffee at Starbucks.

[mamaleah]

249. Why not? Graduating from a piublic high school just means the kid mastered the art of passing exit

exams.

Doesn't mean they are better prepared or worse prepared for anything. Except maybe avoiding an butt kicking by a bully.

[rebecca_herman]

251. This thread makes me sad

I was homeschooled for several years as a teenager. It was the best choice my parents could make for me as I had needs the local schools could not meet and being in that environment was extremely detrimental to me. I have a high school diploma from an accredited correspondance school as well as a 2 year degree from a traditional college. It was the right choice for my parents to make at the time and it makes me sad some would not want to hire me as a result. My education did not suffer in the least from being homeschooled for a few years.

[Pab Sungenis]

267. But you have proof of your education.

A lot of home"schooled" kids don't.

If I'm looking at secondary education as one of the criteria and I see your correspondence school diploma, that puts you in the mix because it means that someone other than your parents has verified that you were, in fact, taught something.

[madokie]

257. After sleeping on this one, I have to be honest

This is the kind of thinking that causes me to worry about the future of our country.

minus fucking 1 :hi:

[CBR]

268. Yes I would if I felt they were the best candidate. I went through

public school and got alot out of it but I cannot say that for all of my classmates. One of my colleagues in my PhD program was homeschooled by her liberal parents. She is smart, capable and ambitious.

[LanternWaste]

294. I have no objective evidence which...

As I have no objective evidence which would sway my eventual decision one way or the other, the candidate would be judged without additional qualifiers, obstacles or conditions. My company is an EOE, and we take that rather seriously.

All other things being equal, it's irrelevant to both me and to HR whether the candidate graduated from a public school, a private school, was home schooled, or received a GED.

[RagAss]

298. No. Most of them are sheltered introverts.

[sense]

319. Oh, my god!

You need an education!

[RagAss]

325. I have an M.A. in Educational Psychology.

[sense]

330. You know nothing

about the subject at hand. A degree doesn't mean you have any experience in the real world. Read the posts. Get an education. Mythology isn't truth.

[ProdigalJunkMail]

353. you might have defrauded the school from which that degree was obtained

it is shocking how woefully ignorant you are...

sP

[bigwillq]

309. I believe DUer Ava

was home schooled. Not sure if she has posted here or not..too many posts for me to look through at this moment.

We shouldn't judge those that were home schooled. We shouldn't stereotype.


If a home schooled person was qualiifed, I would certainly hire them.

[Fearless]

313. I would hire someone that is qualified. Thanks.

[Hippo_Tron]

317. I try not to judge people based on what their parents choose to do

And I would imagine that in the vast majority of cases, homeschooling is the parent's choice and not the child's. Yes I would be wary but certainly not reject them automatically.

[quaker bill]

320. The positions I hire for

all require college degrees. Where a candidate attended K-12 would never be relevant. That being said, in the thousand or so applications I have reviewed over the last 15 years, I have never encountered a home-schooled applicant. Of course, since most of my hires have been biologists / environmental scientists, and in that getting this sort of degree generally requires successful coursework in evolution at most colleges, I would guess that products of the rightwing side of the home school movement would be unlikely to ever apply. I do not know this for certain, but it seems curious to me that I have never had such an applicant.

I do not tend to hire off of resume CV points anyway. I take a candidate who is fully qualified and is also the one that performs best at the interview. Job skills can be taught at any time but, interpersonal skills generally can't be taught that late in life. So I go with the strong interpersonal skills if the person has the general academic background.

[padumdang]

321. Is this like the old "hire the one with the big tits" joke?

:silly:

[Retired AF Dem]

322. Plenty of of famous people

that were home schooled. You might want to google it sometime.

John Adams
Joseph Pulitzer
Ansel Adams
Robert Frost
Irving Berlin
Whoopi Goldberg
Jennifer Love Hewitt
The Hanson Singers
William F. Buckley Jr.
Jason Taylor - NFL
Todd Lodwick
Andrew Carnegie
Charlie Chaplin
Agatha Christie
Winston Churchill
Charles Dickens
Thomas Edison
Benjamin Franklin
Florence Nightingale
Woodrow Wilson
The Wright brothers
FDR
Alexander Graham Bell
Pearl Buck
General George S. Patton
Joan of Arc
Leonardo da Vinci
Wolfgang Mozart
Felix Mendelssohn
Claude Monet
William Penn
Abraham Lincoln
Theodore Roosevelt
Robert E. Lee
Douglas MacArthur
C.S. Lewis
Hans Christian Anderson
Mark Twain
George Washington
James Madison
Thomas Jefferson
John Adams
Patrick Henry
John Paul Jones
Venus Williams
Serena Williams
Dakota Fanning
Jena Malone
Josh Layne
Jennie Chancey
Alyssa Buecker
Liz Kroboth

PRESIDENTS-George Washington, Thomas Jefferson, James Madison, John Quincy Adams, Abraham Lincoln, William Henry Harrison, Theodore Roosevelt, Woodrow Wilson, Franklin D Roosevelt

FAMOUS WOMEN- Abigail Adams, Mercy Warren, Martha Washington, Forence Nightingale, Phyllis Wheatley, Agatha Christie, Pearl S. Buck

GENERALS-"Stonewall" Jackson, Robert E. Lee, Douglas MacArthur, George Patton

ARTISTS-John Singleton Copley, Andrew Wyeth, Rembrandt Peale, Claude Monet, Ansel Adams

AUTHORS-Mark Twain, George Bernard Shaw, Irving Berlin, Charles Dickens, C.S. Lewis

COMPOSERS-Anton Bruckner, Felix Mendelssohn, Amadeus Mozart, Francis Poulenc

PREACHERS & MISSIONARIES-John & Charles Wesley, John Owen, Jonathan Edwards, William Carey, Dwight L. Moody, John Newton, Hudson Taylor

CHIEF JUSTICES U.S. SUPREME COURT-John Rutledge, John Jay, John Marshall

DIVERSELY TALENTED-Blaise Pascal, Booker T. Washington, Thomas Edison,Benjamin Franklin,Andrew Carnegie, John Stuart MillHLA Staff

[mzteris]

328. you probably don't have to worry about it -

as most homeschoolers have far greater ambitions than being a clerk in your company. . .

"A report published by the Educational Resources Information Center (ERIC) states that on average students in grades one to four performed one grade level above their age-level public school peers, and by the time homeschooled students reached 8th grade they are four years ahead of their public school peers. Within each grade level and each skill area, the median scores for homeschooled students fell between the 70th and 80th percentile of students nationwide. Homeschoolers had an average ACT composite score of 22.8 which was .38 standard deviations above the national ACT average of 21.0 in 1998.

Homeschoolers are also excelling in college. There are over 1,000 colleges and universities that routinely accept homeschoolers, including: Haverford College, New York University, Northwestern University, Princeton University, The United States Academies, Washington and Lee University, and Yale University to name a few. In 1997, Dr. Irene Prue, Assistant Director of Admission of Georgia Southern University, released a nationwide survey of admissions personnel's knowledge, attitudes and experiences with home educated applicants. The report from most of the colleges and universities that responded was that homeschoolers are academically, emotionally, and socially prepared to succeed at college.' Studies consistently show that homeschooled students are more capable of thinking for themselves and are not so dependent on their peers; this is why a lot of colleges actively recruit them."

[sense]

339. Thank you! Thank you! Thank you!

I appreciate your stepping in with facts!

[Tangerine LaBamba]

329. No, I'd keep an open mind -

that's kind of unfair, don't you think, just to dismiss, out of hand, someone who was homeschooled?

I'd have at least gotten in for an interview someone who was homeschooled if their other experiences and credentials matched up with the job I was trying to fill.

Why would you do that? I'm curious...................

[earth mom]

336. The fundies have given Home Schooling a bad name-I would hire one that wasn't a fundie. nt

[LynneSin]

351. Alot of the homeschooling ends up where they go to college.

I know there are several DUers that were either home-schooled or are homeschooling their children. There is absolutely nothing wrong with doing it. However, the fundie home-schoolers usually end up at colleges like Bob Jones, Liberty or that place in Virginia specifically for fundie homeschooled children.

[mrs_p]

359. as long as s/he learned molecular biology

at a university/college - and not at a home lab

[DonCoquixote]

361. Some ways tp verify beyond a diploma

One: SAT SCORES. If a kid had a decent SAT score, you do have a quantifiable, nationally accepted standard you can make a judgement on. Yes, you can criticize the SAT, but it is a third party that proves that the person can at least read and count at a certain level.

AP English exams. Again, these are National tests that can assess how well someone reads.

Now, if a parent that homeschools does not make sure their child has a third party means of proving their skills, then it is their fault, but we should not just say "if they did not go to a school like we like, screw them." Then with their Job outlook ruined, they may have no means of breaking away from those fundie parents you hate so much.

[sense]

368. I agree

SAT and AP scores can easily be requested. No reason for the automatic no to home schoolers.

[FBaggins]

372. It's really a pretty silly question

If a job requires a college education (or equivalent), then the HS record is next to irrelevant.

If the job merely requires a HS education then the diploma likely doesn't do you much good. Many people have the diploma without the education that it implies and any competent interviewer can grasp whether the applicant has the basic skills that the HS education is expected to impart.

As an interesting point, however... the people who are most used to judging kids right out of HS (college admissions boards) are now leaning toward favoring homeschooled applicants.

[SoCalDem]

378. It would depend on what the job was, and how many applicants there were

If time was of the essence, and specific credentials were required, they are easier to quantify if they are from a recognized school.
But once interviewed, and evaluated, it's pretty easy to tell who knows their stuff, and who's just bullshitting their way through the interview.

If the job is an "on the job training" sort of job, the place one is educated is not that important:)

[gleaner]

379. I would hesitate before ....

I hired someone who was home schooled. From what I have read, home schoolers are not bound to any particular lesson plans or curriculum like private or public schools. I would not know what they had been taught or how it would enable them to fit into my job opening. With someone who has attended school you can pretty much check out a transcript and see what classes they took and what their strengths and weaknesses are.

I don't think it is discrimination, either. Employers are allowed to give general knowledge tests, vocational tests and even personality profile tests. They are allowed in many places to give lie detector tests to applicants. Some this goes a bit far for me, but surely you need to know what skills your employees have and how they applied themselves to their schoolwork. It could make a big difference to how they fill your position, what they bring to your company and how they will get along in your work place.

[sense]

380. You shouldn't

hesitate. I don't think employers check anyone's high school transcripts and people lie on their apps all the time. It is discrimination to automatically exclude home schoolers. I realize they're not a protected class, but it's still discrimination. There are all sorts of ways to find out what people know, the simplest being an interview. There are AP scores if you need them, or SAT's. Most homeschoolers have to take some sorts of tests throughout their schooling, so those results should be available. Plus, I can't imagine why anyone would object to any sort of test you wanted them to take for employment.

My home schooler speaks 6 languages at 19 years old and has 3 years of college credit. If you simply exclude him because he's home schooled you'll miss out on a very well educated employee. He's also got very, very high SAT's, SAT subject test scores and many 4 and 5 score AP's. Sometimes on Apps there are places for such things, but mostly there are not, so unless you interview you really don't know anything.

We and many other's home school for academic reasons, due to the standards being so low in public and private schools. We may not be in the majority but our numbers are growing. I might add that the "they have no social skills" argument perpetuated by teachers, the NEA and others who simply don't know is ludicrous and couldn't be further from the truth. The old myth of home schoolers at the kitchen table with mom and a bible or horribly outdated. Home schooling just means you opted out of the system, it's not at all descriptive of the education you provide. Home schooling is 24/7 and the home schoolers I know are rarely home, but are out in the real world interacting with all ages of people, taking classes, volunteering, playing sports and learning so much more than you can in the 6 hours a day, 5 days a week school.

[BlooInBloo]

381. Thankfully, the poster didn't say *anything* about...

"automatically exclud(ing) home schoolers."

But if they create strawmen like you do, the poster's *hesitation* would apparently be warranted.

Moral of the story: Don't ruin your own case by putting words in a person's mouth that they clearly didn't say.

[sense]

382. The part about automatically

excluding home schoolers was in the OP, which the poster was responding to.

It's straw men, not strawmen and that's ridiculous.

Moral of the story for you might be that you shouldn't comment on things you know nothing about and haven't even read. Discrimination is ugly. That's my point.

[BlooInBloo]

383. Thank you for agreeing that the poster you responded to didn't say that....

And my congratulations to you on refuting a position that the poster you replied to never took. What's next Sr. Quixote?

[sense]

386. You must be really bored....

maybe you could read something.

[sense]

384. dupe-oops.

[LWolf]

385. I'd hire the best applicant.

Of course, I'm not likely to ever hire anyone, so what I'd do is irrelevant.

I sit on hiring committees for my school. So far, we've never had an applicant for public school teacher or counselor (or principal) who was home-schooled. Wonder why? :shrug:

Other than that, I don't do any hiring.

[Rabrrrrrr]

387. If they were fundamentalist Christian nutjob homeschooled, then no.

But not everyone homeschooled is a fucking moron.

I know people who were homeschooled because they're parents were brilliant, experimental, and provided opportunities and education far better than the schools were providing.

Don't dismiss homeschoolers just for being homeschooled.

That's just fucking ignorant.

[Eric J in MN]

388. Yes. NT

NT

[mzmolly]

390. I'm sorry you feel that way. I know some fabulous, intelligent

children who are home-schooled. I would treat such an application like any other.

[madeline_con]

392. I wouldn't assume the home schooling was inadequate.

I might be concerned about the applicant's social skills/maturity.

[sense]

395. From an earlier post.....

"The report from most of the colleges and universities that responded was that homeschoolers are academically, emotionally, and socially prepared to succeed at college.' Studies consistently show that homeschooled students are more capable of thinking for themselves and are not so dependent on their peers; this is why a lot of colleges actively recruit them."

The no social skills and immaturity memes are perpetuated by the NEA and teachers....and they're inaccurate at best as indicated by all current studies.

[madeline_con]

396. Must be my work with ESE kids.

A large percentage of whom lack social skills, and it wreaks havoc on many of them.

That's not to say they might be an example of the type of student you cited.

[mzmolly]

393. By the way, you would have passed on Thomas Edison, Benjamin Franklin,

Abraham Lincoln, Franklin Delano Roosevelt, Albert Einstein, Booker T. Washington, Leonardo da Vinci, Claude Monet, Susan B. Anthony, Alexander Graham Bell, Orville and Wilbur Wright, Charles Dickens, Samuel Clemens (Mark Twain), Whoopi Goldberg, Louis Armstrong, Gloria Steinem, Frank Lloyd Wright and many, many more.

I hope you'll reconsider your position Thom. :hi:

[msanthrope]

394. I've hired home-schooled kids.

Two, in fact.

In another life I hired for a law firm of about 12 lawyers who did a little bit of everything. We had a staff that fluctuated between 25-30 people, depending on the economy, and what the lawyers were up to.

One kid was obviously home-schooled because of social problems. He made a perfectly fine court runner. He later got a job in county government, in Land Records.

Another started working for us summers, then as a paralegal, then as a law clerk. He went to a better, bigger firm after law school.

I did *not* hire a few other homeschoolers because they didn't have the academic qualifications I was looking for--namely, a GED, or an AA or a BA/BS, depending on the job. The two I did hire, the former had a GED and had taken some math/computer science classes at the local CC. The latter had taken AP classes and CC classes, starting when he was about 13.