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An often overlooked aspect of the Manson family killers, Atkins, et all

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subcomhd Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-27-09 10:44 AM
Original message
An often overlooked aspect of the Manson family killers, Atkins, et all
is the fact they were white supremacists. Gibby Folger was a very dedicated, progressive social worker who came from a wealthy family but cared about the downtrodden. She was butchered by white supremacists. It is an aspect of all of this that nobody seems to mention in the Susan Atkins threads I have seen here recently.
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mix Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-27-09 10:47 AM
Response to Original message
1. also, they were trying to start a race war with the murders nt
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subcomhd Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-27-09 10:49 AM
Response to Reply #1
3. yes, and the way their "theory" went
was that once the Blacks had taken over, they would be so dumb and incompetent that they would need White people to run things (Manson and the fam.)
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mix Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-27-09 10:52 AM
Response to Reply #3
4. exactly...I have never understood those who romanticize this group,
thankfully many of the guilty will spend their lives behind bars...they were a unique type of evil.
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NightWatcher Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-27-09 10:48 AM
Response to Original message
2. Manson was trying to trigger an all out race war. I dont know to what extent his followers
were in on the planning.

But they fact that they were weakminded and readily brainwashed by Manson suggests that they might be the type to simply project all of their problems, hates, and fears onto a single race of people.....you know to make the hatin' easier.
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DefenseLawyer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-27-09 10:55 AM
Response to Original message
5. Are you basing that on Bugliosi's "Helter Skelter" theory?
Because that was for the most part made up out of whole cloth. I'm not saying anyone was innocent, but you would be hard pressed to find any solid evidence to support Bugliosi's far flung theory of the motive.
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mix Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-27-09 11:06 AM
Response to Reply #5
6. Bugliosi successfully prosecuted most of the guilty,
and was intimately familiar with their testimony...I'll take his word on the race war issue.
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SoCalNative Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-27-09 11:25 AM
Response to Reply #6
7. Why not get the real story
from someone who was there?

http://www.susanatkins.org/6-Myth.html
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mix Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-27-09 11:28 AM
Response to Reply #7
8. I will take the prosecutor's word over hers. nt
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SoCalNative Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-27-09 11:35 AM
Response to Reply #8
11. Why?
because he sold more books?

All prosecutors come up with their own theories as to why things happen in order to fit everything neatly into a box to win convictions.

Most of the time they are wrong.
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mix Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-27-09 11:50 AM
Response to Reply #11
15. No, because she's a convicted murderer. nt
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hlthe2b Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-27-09 01:15 PM
Response to Reply #15
21. After 40 years in jail, prior to her death, what reason would she
have to lie? Bugliosi HAD to craft some kind of motive in a storyline to gain the conviction of Manson, who, after after all did not directly murder any of the Tate-LaBianca victims. He had to do so quickly, when the trial was moved up. I like Bugliosi but a prosecutorial assessment of motive to win conviction is not necessarily reflective of the whole truth. Your reasoning makes no sense to me.
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subcomhd Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-27-09 01:21 PM
Response to Reply #21
26. "after all did not directly murder any of the Tate-LaBianca victims" not really true
he broke into the La Bianca home and tied the two victims up for the rest to come and butcher - that makes him as guilty as the any pf them, with or without the family's beliefs of white supremacy and race war (which they have all admitted)
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hlthe2b Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-27-09 01:24 PM
Response to Reply #26
28. that makes him an accessory to murder.... that Bugliosi
got the conviction for murder is the difficult part (a conviction, which I of course agree with, but difficult nonetheless)
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subcomhd Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-27-09 11:26 PM
Response to Reply #28
36. maybe, depends on cali. law
I think you can be found guilty of murder for driving the getaway car in most places. So tying the victims up for the slaughter is probably good too. I agree with you that Bugliosi is a good prosecutor. His politics are good too.
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mix Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-27-09 01:24 PM
Response to Reply #21
29. The jury convicted them and the judge sentenced them.
The wheels of justice usually favor the unjust, but in this case I am entirely happy that Manson and his followers were convicted of murder and will die behind bars.

There is also testimony in the trial record about Manson's political and racial views regarding the meaning of Helter Skelter.

Susan Atkins underwent many conversions following her conviction, reinventing herself many times, which is understandable. I simply do not trust her as a source on this issue. That is my reasoning.
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hlthe2b Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-27-09 01:28 PM
Response to Reply #29
30. The issue is not whether they were justly convicted & deserve
Edited on Sun Sep-27-09 01:37 PM by hlthe2b
to die in jail, but whether years later, having admitted their actions (not Manson, of course), whether anything they say can be believed. I simply don't find much remaining motive for Atkins to lie this many decades later, especially facing her own imminent death. Your mileage, of course may vary...

I can certainly believe there may have been a range of motives among Charlie Manson, Tex Watkins and among the Manson girls, as well as varied understanding of what the group motive might have been. Who knows... They will all soon revert to the dust bins of history and hopefully the stupid among the youth that would lionize them, will return to their senses.
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mix Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-27-09 01:37 PM
Response to Reply #30
33. Atkins is a convicted murderer with a crime she must justify to herself her entire life...
...lying about that past is part of her dealing with the trauma of that crime.

Also, isn't this just her defending Manson?
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hlthe2b Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-27-09 01:40 PM
Response to Reply #33
34. Perhaps, in terms of dealing with the trauma... but
I believe that all the Manson "girls" turned away from Manson very soon after their convictions. He likewise turned against all of them. I don't really think she or Leslie Van Houton (as well as the third one, whose name escapes me) have defended Manson at all for many decades.
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WeDidIt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-27-09 01:21 PM
Response to Reply #7
27. She was a liar her entire life
I'll not belief any of the bullshit she spewed.

She wanted out.

She was an evil murderess.

She got a lot better than she deserved.
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DefenseLawyer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-27-09 11:29 AM
Response to Reply #6
9. Their testimony is public record
You don't need to take his word for it.
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mix Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-27-09 11:31 AM
Response to Reply #9
10. Show us your evidence against Bugliosi. The burden of proof is on you. nt
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subcomhd Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-27-09 11:39 AM
Response to Reply #9
12. Blackie (some spades from watts)
Edited on Sun Sep-27-09 11:40 AM by subcomhd
Testimony of Paul Watkins in the Charles Manson Trial
(Prosecution witness Paul Watkins, age 20, testified about the meaning of Helter Skelter.)

Direct examination by Vincent Bugliosi:
"During your association with Charles Manson, did he frequently discuss Helter Skelter with you?"

"Constantly."

"He used the word 'Helter Skelter' constantly?"

"I wouldn't go so far as to say constantly. He did not say, 'Helter Skelter, Helter Skelter, Helter Skelter.' But he did quite a bit, yes, it seemed to be the main topic."

On How Helter Skelter Would Start

"There would be some atrocious murders; that some of the spades from Watts would come up into the Bel-Air and Beverly Hills district and just really wipe some people out, just cut bodies up and smear blood and write things on the wall in blood, and cut little boys up and make parents watch. So, in retaliation-this would scare; in other words, all the other white people would be afraid that this would happen to them, so out of their fear they would go into the ghetto and just start shooting black people like crazy. But all they would shoot would be the garbage man and Uncle Toms, and all the ones that were with Whitey in the first place. And underneath it all, the Black Muslims would-he would know that it was coming down."

"Helter Skelter was coming down?"

"Yes. So, after Whitey goes in the ghettoes and shoots all the Uncle Toms, then the Black Muslims come out and appeal to the people by saying, 'Look what you have done to my people.' And this would split Whitey down the middle, between all the hippies and the liberals and all the up-tight piggies. This would split them in the middle and a big civil war would start and really split them up in all these different factions, and they would just kill each other off in the meantime through their war. And after they killed each other off, then there would be a few of them left who supposedly won."

"A few of who left?"

"A few white people left who supposedly won. Then the Black Muslims would come out of hiding and wipe them all out."

"Wipe the white people out?"

"Yes. By sneaking around and slitting their throats."

"Did Charlie say anything about where he and the Family would be during this Helter Skelter?"

"Yes. When we was in the desert the first time, Charlie used to walk around in the desert and say-you see, there are places where water would come up to the top of the ground and then it would go down and there wouldn't be no more water, and then it would come up again and go down again. He would look at that and say, 'There has got to be a hole somewhere, somewhere here, a big old lake.' And it just really got far out, that there was a hole underneath there somewhere where you could drive a speedboat across it, a big underground city. Then we started from the 'Revolution 9' song on the Beatles album which was interpreted by Charlie to mean the Revelation 9. So-"

"The last book of the New Testament?"

"Just the book of Revelation and the song would be 'Revelations 9: So, in this book it says, there is a part about, in Revelations 9, it talks of the bottomless pit. Then later on, I believe it is in 10."

"Revelation 10?"

"Yes. It talks about there will be a city where there will be no sun and there will be no moon."

"Manson spoke about this?"

"Yes, many times. That there would be a city of gold, but there would be no life, and there would be a tree there that bears twelve different kinds of fruit that changed every month. And this was interpreted to mean-this was the hole down under Death Valley."

"Did he talk about the twelve tribes of Israel?"

"Yes. That was in there, too. It was supposed to get back to the 144,000 people. The Family was to grow to this number."

"The twelve tribes of Israel being 144,000 people?"

"Yes."

"And Manson said that the Family would eventually increase to 144,000 people?"

"Yes."

"Did he say when this would take place?"

"Oh, yes. See, it was all happening simultaneously. In other words, as we are making the music and it is drawing all the young love to the desert, the Family increases in ranks, and at the same time this sets off Helter Skelter. So then the Family finds the hole in the meantime and gets down in the hole and lives there until the whole thing comes down."

"Until Helter Skelter comes down?"

"Yes."

"Did he say who would win this Helter Skelter?"

"The karma would have completely reversed, meaning that the black men would be on top and the white race would be wiped out; there would be none except for the Family."

"Except for Manson and the Family?"

"Yes."

"Did he say what the black man would do once he was all by himself?"

"Well, according to Charlie, he would clean up the mess, just like he always has done. He is supposed to be the servant, see. He will clean up the mess that he made, that the white man made, and build the world back up a little bit, build the cities back up, but then he wouldn't know what to do with it, he couldn't handle it."

"Blackie couldn't handle it?"

"Yes, and this is when the Family would come out of the hole, and being that he would have completed the white man's karma, then he would no longer have this vicious want to kill."

"When you say 'he,' you mean Blackie?"

"Blackie then would come to Charlie and say, you know, 'I did my thing, I killed them all and, you know, I am tired of killing now. It is all over.' And Charlie would scratch his fuzzy head and kick him in the butt and tell him to go pick the cotton and go be a good nigger, and he would live happily ever after

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hlthe2b Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-27-09 12:58 PM
Response to Reply #6
16. I like and respect Bugliosi, but in truth, any prosecutor who could
not have gotten a conviction on all but Manson, would have been as incompetent as the Bush* admin lawyers.... I do credit Bugliosi for the Manson conviction, though, given his "directive" role from afar.

That said, it was his job to weave a story that would aid the jury in understanding these monstrous acts--not necessarily one reflective of what the Manson family might say to be true.
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mix Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-27-09 01:17 PM
Response to Reply #16
22. Consider Bugliosi's record, in order to fully appreciate his brilliance as a prosecutor:
He lost only one of the 106 felony cases he tried as a prosecutor, which included winning 21 out of 21 murder cases.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vincent_Bugliosi
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hlthe2b Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-27-09 01:21 PM
Response to Reply #22
25. Bugliosi was a brilliant prosecutor, I agree
Edited on Sun Sep-27-09 01:31 PM by hlthe2b
I have in no way demeaned his record and like and respect him. But while the conviction of Manson was difficult and noteworthy, I would not say the same of the family members directly involved in the killings.
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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-27-09 01:14 PM
Response to Reply #6
19. There is no question
that "Helter Skelter" was a big part of it. You are defintely correct in that, as was Mr. Bugliosi. Manson's rantings on this topic changed the way many of the "family" thought, and without question played a significant role in the murderous actions of some.

However, the entire series of activities did include other factors, that ranged from Manson's connections to other groups/cults, as well as financial matters tied to drug trade. In that sense, the Helter Skelter theory is not all inclusive.

For those interested in the horrors of the Manson Family, Bugliosi's book is required reading. However, a fuller understanding of the events requires reading more than the single book. Mr. Bugliosi was, in my opinion, the most skilled prosecutor of our times. However, the rules of evidence would not have allowed him to bring all the information he was aware of into open court. The other factors are not things he wasn't aware of. He simply had to do the job to the best of his ability within the context of the American justice system. Interestingly, even though he has noted that there was a lot more involved, even Manson himself stated that Mr. Bugliosi gave him a fair trial.

Mr. Bugliosi is an honorable man.
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mix Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-27-09 01:32 PM
Response to Reply #19
31. It was the political and racial part of the murders to be precise...
...and the other factors you cite are also relevant...He is indeed an honorable personage, as he has recently shown.
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Hosnon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-27-09 11:44 AM
Response to Original message
13. Is the second "L" in "et all" intentional?
If so, that's an interesting error, as it is pretty close to the meaning of et alia.
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subcomhd Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-27-09 11:45 AM
Response to Reply #13
14. typo nt
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kentuck Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-27-09 01:02 PM
Response to Original message
17. Does anyone recognize this person??
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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-27-09 01:05 PM
Response to Reply #17
18. I can only see
a small white box with a red X in it. I think several Mansonites carved X's on their heads, but I'm not sure which, of any, the white box represents.
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hlthe2b Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-27-09 01:20 PM
Response to Reply #18
24. right click and select view image...
may work... My browser (or firewall) hides the image as well
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hlthe2b Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-27-09 01:19 PM
Response to Reply #17
23. a young Susan Atkins.... yes?
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glitch Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-27-09 01:15 PM
Response to Original message
20. I had no idea, thanks for posting. nt
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Taverner Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-27-09 01:33 PM
Response to Original message
32. Very true...
"Helter Skelter" is not much different than RAHOWA
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Dreamer Tatum Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-27-09 01:43 PM
Response to Original message
35. You mean on top of being mass murderers....they were RACISTS? Those BASTARDS.
This thread confirms my belief that in this day and age, the worst thing that anyone can possibly believe about you is that you're a racist.
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