Let's talk about helmets...

[nebenaube]

So, I'm sitting here thinking about something my father told me once long ago.
At the time, we happened to be helping some german friends build a new barn (during the cold war over in the FRG) The topic had turned to discussing military helmet designs shortly after a buddy and I had discovered a Luftshutz helmet buried in the back of a hayloft. I had never seen any actual Nazi gear outside of a museum or photograph and I was fascinated with the discovery. I examined it carefully, I noted the subtle differences between this 'home guard' design and the actual model the SS and regular troops were wearing. I also noted the differences between this artifact I held and the helmet my father kept in the hall closet next to the three cases of C-rations and some of his other gear. Anyway, I'll get to the point, he said it was the better design. I took his word for it then but I'm not sure I buy into that statement.

discuss...

[Pavulon]

1. Most modern belt fed air cooled machine guns

are built from the german MG4x. They made some very sophisticated gear.

[vadawg]

2. i had the pleasure of getting to fire some schmiesser (spelling)

machine pistols years ago, real nice and i believe that collectors love them as well...

[nebenaube]

6. No doubt... they are good guns.

I'm talking about helmets here. Are they a better design than the standard GI helmet? Are they lighter as well as safer? Are there any engineers around here that can shed light on this question?

[Pavulon]

7. Circa 1937 - 1945?

I an an engineer and work with different metals, not in this area, but design analysis requires someone knowledgeable in original scope and purpose. They were both designed to stop fragments, so they would be judged on that and other factors like weight and user satisfaction. My army issued pasgt gear was designed to stop fragments of metal. It was sweaty and stinky per my memory. Guys thought they would stop a 7.62 or 5.56 round, I have my doubts. I do wish I had retained the one I took to bosnia but they were still new enough that taking them was a no no.

Cant answer your question, it is interesting.

[madeline_con]

3. Here's the Luftshutz helmet

Luftshutz helmet http://www.german-helmets.com/LUFTSCHUTZ_HELMETS.htm


I can't find a pic of the home guard design, but the site above seems like a good place to start. :)

[nebenaube]

4. I used home guard as a translation of luftshutz...

They were civilian air-raid officers and volunteers.

[madeline_con]

5. Boy is my face red!

:blush:

[Swamp Rat]

8. Best helmet design:

[nadinbrzezinski]

9. Look at the helment we currently issue US Troops

any similarities in form are purely coincidental.

Mind you, today they also use Kevlar, but you get the point.

Hell, I used to look at helmets for more than just a passing hobby. Working in EMS I used first a Motorcycle cop helmet, painted white, with red crosses... saved my life that thing, good for one impact.

Then I used a standard structure fire fighting helmet, which also saved my skinny during an evacuation from a construction site... ah that reebar would have cracked my skull.

For years I also did confined space and vertical mountain rescue (technically half mountain) and used my firefighting helmet for that, but considered more than once a far more compact helmet, with denser materials, and able to take punishment better, due to the confined part. But the wider rimmed American style fire fighting helmet spreads falling crap better... but sucks in confined space...

Oh and once did wear a modern issue Kevlar helmet. You realize how heavy those things are? I stopped complaining about my firefighting helmet after that.

Now here is the PSA on those of you who use a biking helmet for bicycling or even motor sports. Those things are good for one impact. A fall from a desk qualifies. Oh and those of you using your cycling helmets regularly, the sun does some damage, so consider replacing the damn thing every two to three years, and check it at the beginning of the season. Why I don't spend a lot of money on mine.

[nebenaube]

10. There you go...

"any similarities in form are purely coincidental." I take issue with this statement. I think it is purely for psychological purposes. If it is indeed a better design for stopping ballistic fragments I may buy the argument. I just want to hear it first. The argument that is...

[nadinbrzezinski]

11. It has better coverage of ear area than the helmet

that was issued to troops in WW II... well also depends what part of WW II are you talking about? The early helmet, a british based design, had a slight problem with lower skull injuries.

Mow all helmets have a problem, and even we lowly medics used to unstrap ours if there was a risk of bullets or explosions. If you leave it on, and the thing goes back in the right way, it will break your neck. The Firefighting structural helmet actually has less of a risk due to the flare out.

Now to materials.

History of helmets are interesting.

Early helmets were made of leather. They were supposed to protect against slashing injuries... not very good against pointy bits. Piece of trivia early firefighting helmets were also made of leather.

Later on we started using different grades of steel. It was been a competition between explosives and penetrating force and materials. By WW II the German design had lower injuries from explosions, but no helmet of the period stopped a bullet.

Today, in theory at medium to long range, they should be able to stop small arms. Me... will not put that to the test with my brain bucket in. But Kevlar is pretty good, they weigh a ton though and as you were told above, they are smelly. I also have a small head, so getting the standard issue gear to fit me was a nightmare. Damn shoot out... I am just a red cross medic... I was glad for the gear though.

As to the psychology... all that gear is partly psychological. All that gear will fail... at some point. Anybody who does not realize this, is delusional, whether you are taking your firefighting helmet into a fire, or your ballistic helmet to war.

[Pavulon]

13. Snell 2005 and Snell SA ratings for vehicles

SA (high end bell or arai) are designed for open cockpit race cars. They are incredible in how they work. There is a video of a guy getting hit in the head with a chunk of car in a formula race car. He lived. The impact was massive. SA stuff is a bit tougher but very expensive.

But you are spot on. 1 drop and they are all junk. That sucks because they are 500 - 700 bucks.

[tuckessee]

12. Sounds like yours is a Gladiator type LS lid.

They come in three, two and one piece variations. Decaled or undecaled. Standard & Polizei versions. Blue, green or gray paint. Some rare examples are beaded.

The galdiator helmet is designated the M36 (three or two piece) or M44 (one piece) and is made out of a lighter steel than the combat lids. They're designed to deflect falling debris not hot lead.

The LS and other civic groups also used basic combat helmets (M35, M40 & M42) that were rejected because of a bad roll of steel. These had a "bead" added around the helmet just below the split pins.

I'd be interested in seeing the liner used in your helmet. LS helmets are known for the wide variety of liners found in them. Many are unusual late-war ersatz systems.

I'm no expert on the helmet physics but it is generally considered that the M35/40/42's were by far the best combat helmet of WW2 with the Russian & American models tying for second. British, including late war Turtle models, used high quality steel but had a very crappy design. French, Belgian, Dutch, Czech, etc lids are junk.

I've heard many experts say that the best regularily issued steel helmet in history is the East German helmet which was directly copied from a very, very rare late-war German prototype known as the M45.