Do you have a computer and a pulse? If so you can have a free operating system that

[Greyhound]

works, is secured, and isn't financing the destruction of your national economy.

http://www.ubuntu.com/GetUbuntu/download">

If you liked Windoze Millennium Edition, you're really gonna love Windoze Vista, it's Craptacular!

[Autumn]

1. I use ubuntu on one

of my computers. I love it.

[WeDidIt]

2. Vista sucks

Windows 7 rocks the free world.

Ubuntu is pretty good. Certainly better than Vista, but not as good as XP.

[Greyhound]

11. Depends on the definition of "good". n/t

[WeDidIt]

13. Hey, if all you do is a few documents and web browsing, Ubuntu is good

Udbuntu is not good enough to do what I need it to, though.

That is, I depend upon applicaitons that will only run on Windows.

[Greyhound]

16. That has nothing to do with reliability, security, speed, or quality, it merely reflects the success

M$ has had in evading responsibility for its criminal activity. And there are almost always alternatives, there are entire countries that don't use M$ crapware.

[WeDidIt]

22. And none of my applications will run on anything but Windows

And I disagree. Microsoft does not engage in criminal activity. claims that they do is just the normal FUD.

[Greyhound]

32. LOL!

:rofl:

[Toucano]

61. The European Commission says they did commit a crime.

They violated competition laws and have been receiving record setting fines.

[johnaries]

67. Try Wine.

http://linux.about.com/od/softorther/a/softotherwine.htm

[WeDidIt]

82. I've tried it

multiple times.

My apps will not work in that environment.

I won't try any more.

[TreasonousBastard]

125. Whatever the fuck is the point of installing a bloated...

Linux OS and using WINE when you can just use bloated Windows in the first place?

Is there ANYTHING Linux can do that Windows can't so you need it as the OS with WINE or some other hack to run the windows apps you actually use?

[sudopod]

68. Have you tried?

http://www.winehq.org

Also, software=!operating system

[WeDidIt]

80. Yep

and I'll never load it again.

[Occulus]

91. Exactly which applications are you using? n/t

[ChimpersMcSmirkers]

99. No, but it has everthing to do with using a computer to get your work done.

Reliability, security, speed, and quality count for nothing if it can't do what you need it to do. I want linux to succeed, but it won't until it supports a critical mass of apps. that people want to use.

[Lance_Boyle]

76. try crossover linux

it works well in ubuntu (and every other distro I've tried it on). Nobody is tied to windows anymore, unless they get off on that sort of thing.

[WeDidIt]

81. I've tried the apps I used time after time

I'm not wasting any more time with it.

I'll stick with Windows.

[Occulus]

90. You can install Windows on top of Ubuntu via VirtualBox.

It's sort of the same thing as Bootcamp on a Mac, if I correctly understand what it does. I started installing it, but I need to reformat and repartition so I can make Ubuntu my primary OS. I'm not going through that rigamarole again so soon after getting everything all set up again, but it's nice to know that there's an easy way to migrate and still have fast access to Windows.... without rebooting.

I don't know how well VirtualBox plays with DirectX applications, though. I suppose I could reinstall Windows and give a few of my games a shot, if I have enough space. By the way, VirtualBox is not WINE. It's not a compatibility layer, but rather a way to set up a virtual disk so you can put another OS on top of Ubuntu.

edit: the application(s) you have that are so Windows-specific ought to run just fine this way, because with VirtualBox, you install Windows- the entire OS- on a virtual drive in linux. Because you're running the whole OS (you install Windows as usual from your Windows CD/DVD once the virtual disk is set up), your application ought to run fine.

VirtualBox can even set up a virtual disk for Windows 7 and is also capable of running in full-screen (I didn't try that part because Compiz desktop effects don't seem to like full-screen apps). The next time I reformat/repartition, I'm doing it this way and (if my games still run well) I'll be dumping the Windows partition for good.

[TreasonousBastard]

126. Again--- WHY? What's the advantage of installing an OS and then...

installing the OS you need for the apps you need on that OS you first installed?

[goclark]

29. I have XP now, how much longer will it operate?

It has its problems but I like most of the features.

[WeDidIt]

39. Microsoft will end support for XP next year

So fiugure no security updates after about October 2010.

Windows 7 blows XP out of the water, though.

[Better Today]

44. Your responses to date were very close to what mine would've been, but

I've been holding back even on getting Windows7. You like it though I see. One question, will all my XP programs run on Windows7 or will I have to upgrade?

[WeDidIt]

46. Everything I've had ran fine on the Beta

We'll see how the gold version goes.

[Occulus]

92. Some of the older games I have will not run in Windows 7

even in compatibility mode. Then again, they wouldn't run under Vi$ta, either.

It's ok, though, because Microsoft offers a virtual drive app made for other Windows versions; if I ever really need to, I can just set up XP on a virtual drive.

Windows 7 is the best thing to come out of Microsoft since Win98SE. I guess a broken clock really is right twice a day...

[Better Today]

112. I'm not a big gamer, still playing the old SNES with an emulator. My concerns

are more related to Office 2000 (yes, I know old old old), Quickbooks not current, my image editors and so on.

[TreasonousBastard]

130. Not all of them. There's a compatibility thingie from...

Microsoft that will be available soon. Most should work, though, if they work on Vista.

Soon enough all your software will have upgrades to Win 7, so it might cost a few bucks for some of them, but it should be worth it.

(I'm very happy with XP, too. I suspect many of the Mac and Linux people took hike after Win98-- and well they should have.)

[goclark]

49. So how much will 7 cost and when is it best to buy it?

[Occulus]

93. Full versions cost $DOOM

Just kidding. The full versions are pricey, though. If you know someone who's in school or has a .edu address, they can apparently get it for you as a student for a major discount.

Not that I would ever be dishonest about my educational status to a corporation like Micro$oft and get someone to buy it for me. Oh no, never.

[MellonCollie]

62. XP will be getting security updates until 2014

http://support.microsoft.com/lifecycle/?p1=3221

[Statistical]

63. You beat me to it Mellon Collie (and the infinite sadness?). Welcome to DU.

[goclark]

96. So I can keep my XP until that time?

I love my Outlook express etc.

[Statistical]

105. Yup. Just understand there is no support what so ever except bug fixes & security updates

So companies will slowly stop supporting XP. It will take time but support will die off. Likely you don't want to wait until 2014 but you have plenty of time to decide when to upgrade.

Microsoft tends to put 1 service pack out per year so around Oct 2010 Windows 7 will have been out a year, there will be SP1, near perfect driver support. Likely by then you can pay $500 for a desktop or laptop w/ windows 7 that far exceeds anything your current system does.

However if you want from a security standpoint updates will be available for windows xp until 2014. You can keep it even past that it won't suddenly stop working however I wouldn't recommend it.

[goclark]

113. Thanks for the info!

[Toucano]

53. XP is SOOOO old!

They released XP in 2001.

[Statistical]

64. And they will stop supporting it in 2014 making it the longest supported OS by Microsoft. n/t

[Paper Roses]

3. Funny you should mention Windows ME. I learned what little

I know on ME and was always in trouble. Someone finally told me that a great many of my problems were caused by ME. Finally got a new computer with XP. This operator still has trouble but with things done wrong, not with the system.

Thank heaven I do not have Vista. Too many people I know curse the day it was released. I'd sure mess stuff up with that. Hope to never have the chance.

[gkhouston]

4. Geek question: can you be root, or do you have to make do with sudo? n/t

[Greyhound]

8. Certainly you can. finding and figuring out how is an indication of whether you should.

:rofl:

[htuttle]

14. +1

[RoyGBiv]

71. Winner!

*That* is the best answer to that question I have ever seen.

[Ezlivin]

12. The root password is locked by default

I use SUDO to get the work done.

(I just tried to see if I could SU to root, but it denied me. As soon as I tried SUDO it accepted the same root password.)

By default, the root account password is locked in Ubuntu. This means that you cannot login as root directly or use the su command to become the root user. However, since the root account physically exists it is still possible to run programs with root-level privileges. This is where sudo comes in - it allows authorized users (normally "Administrative" users; for further information please refer to AddUsersHowto) to run certain programs as root without having to know the root password.

Source: https://help.ubuntu.com/community/RootSudo

[gkhouston]

33. Thanks. I tried a distro of Ubunto for one evening on a machine (all I

wanted was the secure-delete package so I could use smem on a laptop I was disposing of) and I was less than whelmed that the install disk set up the computer without asking me for the root passwood, as if I somehow couldn't be trusted to know I wasn't supposed to run around in my superuser cape the livelong day. :eyes: I was half-expecting it to create a bunch of user accounts and set up groups with scheduled play-dates next. :-)

[sudopod]

69. If you have to be root for a script or something

use "sudo su" ;)

[lumberjack_jeff]

19. Sudo is still better than Vista account management.

If vista tells me one more time that I don't have permissions to put files where I want them, I'm smashing this sumbitch.

[Toucano]

54. A good balance between safety and usability. n-t

[spoony]

21. I love sudo.

That's the game where you put numbers 1-9 in little boxes, right? Very addicting.

[Gold Metal Flake]

5. I have an old laptop and would like to experiment with this.

Where do I get it, and does it support a browser? Where can I get the browser? How hard is it to set up?

[JustABozoOnThisBus]

6. download it

http://distrowatch.com/table.php?distribution=ubuntu

A browser is built in. Sometimes getting the wireless lan stuff to work can be a pain.

Have fun!

:hi:

Edit to add. The above may be a little vague.

Download the .iso file, then burn the .iso image to a cd. Then boot from the cd.

[Gold Metal Flake]

9. "Sometimes getting the wireless lan stuff to work can be a pain."

The statement is accurate regardless of the OS.

Thanks for the link and instructions. I have to ditch the hard drive because of a bad sector but it still boots with XP. I'll burn a CD and give it a whirl.

[Greyhound]

7. Do you have a CD/DVD burner?

If so, download and burn the .iso to a CD (I think they still keep it small enough to fit on a CD).

Leave the CD in the drive and re-boot your laptop, you should get options to either install or run from CD. Choose run from CD and see how well it works on your system. Bear in mind that it will run much slower this way, but you have not installed anything so if you decide you don't like it, just take out the CD and re-boot.

If it doesn't self-configure well on your system (Wireless connection doesn't work, for example) it can become more than you want to deal with.

Let us know.

[Gold Metal Flake]

10. Got it. Thanks!

[Kalyke]

15. I like Vista.

Never had a problem with it.

:shrug:

[Greyhound]

30. There are people still using ME as well.

If you've never had problems, you probably have far more computer than you need and it's way faster and better than you realize.

[Orsino]

77. I think I found one bit of software that didn't run on Vista...

...a new version of an open-source game. I soon found out what I had to tweak, and it worked fine after that.

I don't understand the magnitude of the Vista-hate, but I guess I'm just not a power user.

[Deja Q]

124. What do you use Vista for?

Please be as descriptive as possible, it is important to know the level of detail.

[TrogL]

17. I had Vista taken off my work PC

Got tired of it crashing, locking up, rebooting itself, randomly refusing to run apps, randomly crashing apps...the list goes on.

[elocs]

18. I put ubuntu on an old pc that had Windows ME and the HD crashed.

I put in a new HD, but I couldn't get it up and running with ME again so I put ubuntu on it and it ran right away. I haven't used it in months although I do have a book about using ubuntu I've been spoiled by the ease of both Windows and Macs because I really don't do much on a computer other than surf the web, watch videos, make greeting cards and photo cds.

[lumberjack_jeff]

20. avoid dual booting.

Windows installs temp files on the biggest available hdd. In my case my biggest hdd was the one I had installed ubuntu on. Windows trashed my ubuntu installation.

[blogslut]

23. Funny

I've been dual booting Ubuntu/Windows for almost three years and have never had such a problem.

[Swamp Rat]

27. Happened to me, but I fixed it.

I had to fix the grub, and tell the BIOS to look for multiple root drives.... I should have written it down so I could replicate what I did. If it happens again, I will be sure to do this.

I have no choice for my laptop, which has XP (originally designed for Vista - a whole other huge mess I had to fix too) and Ubuntu on separate partitions, with XP loading first. However, the PC I built for home has multiple HDs, each with dedicated OSes. ;)

[Greyhound]

35. If you want to multi-boot, you have to put windoze on first.

For just that reason. I had one UNIX box that I got to dual boot by installing 2K Pro from a ghost image on a prepared partition after UNIX was already installed.

[Toucano]

55. Windows did this to me too, but it was easy to recover with this.

http://www.cgsecurity.org/wiki/TestDisk_Download

You might want to have it handy in any case. It is super excellent!

[Occulus]

106. You installed the bootloader in the wrong place, methinks

Windows can't even see the Ubuntu partition. To Windows, that partition doesn't exist. However, Ubuntu can see Windows.

The key to installing a dual-boot OS setup is to always, always, always install Windows first. It overwrites the master boot record, and if you don't install it first you have to go back and fix the other OS.

You'll also want to tell Windows not to display the boot menu, so you can use GRUB or whetever Ubuntu uses to manage your boot options without having to go through two sets of menus.

[lumberjack_jeff]

111. I tried a variety of things.

First, I used the bootloader. When it got corrupted, preventing me from using either OS, I installed Ubuntu on its own hdd without Grub.

Since my computers bios allows easy swap between boot devices, I used that.

And Windows does see the Ubuntu partition if you use something like Ext2Fsd, which is required if you want Windows to store/retrieve files from EXT3 disks.

[Swamp Rat]

24. Ubuntu 9.04 ROCKS!!

Been using it since May. ;)

It's a bit tricky for multiple screens (can't get dual X mode to work for a VGA + DVI - Maybe because I am using just one NVIDIA video card =, which does not have dual DVI outputs), and it took a bit of tweaking to get my M-Audio USB interface to work.

[wroberts189]

25. The only problem with Linux is the hundreds of apps. the will not run on it.

So I am stuck in Vista land ... blue screens ... random lockups and shutdowns.

poor me.

[Greyhound]

38. If you want to get a little more into it,

http://www.winehq.org/">WINE works for most windows apps in a variety of environments.

[wroberts189]

40. I will try it out thanks.

I have heard of it but never tried it. I have to run a lot of windows apps cause of my business.


Believe it or not I have run and maintained a Linux dns ,email, and web servers for over 14 years.

Most stable operating system ever. But I have never been in BSD land. Linux is great for an isp and people who can handle the sometimes complex installation and updates.. like rebuilding your kernel. Or updating php or your libs.

I am a full time unix admin... a very grumpy one .. I know what I am doing most of the time but google is handy.


On edit I use Debian... have not tried Ubuntu yet.

[Greyhound]

42. Consumer interface and functionality on a Debian kernel, IIRC.

Each new version has been better than the last. Installation for the masses is easier than windoze and just not having to add and deal with AV and the ubiquitous IE alone makes it worth it.

The lack of entertainment software is still the biggest weakness, IMO.

[wroberts189]

45. It is amazing how many years we have waited....

Yet the lack of support for Linux remains dismal. And the irony is they do not have to pay MS for "certification" or whatever they call it these days for drivers and software. You would think they would all support Linux. I guess the user base is not big enough or something.

Its a damn shame. A free OS ... yet everything out there is basically windows only except for a few apps.. you want to play the latest games? ..MS directX only.

[Toucano]

52. Please list your most critical apps and I can help you find the alternative.

Been Microsoft free for almost two years.

Ask me anything!

[The Straight Story]

26. OS's are like religion and ideology, to each their own

What works for you, may not for me.

Why don't you DL Solaris 10 instead of Ubuntu? Why not get a MAC?

Use what I use or you are just not cool/hip/up to date.

People use what is best for them and their needs. Call em a sinner for doing it and they aren't about to change because of that.

Go MAC, Go Windows, Go Solaris, etc.

Choice is great, telling people their choice sucks and yours is better seems a little fundie to me.

[Swamp Rat]

34. I use all those OSes but Ubuntu is really worth investigating.

I love it! No need to use just one operating system.

I use Solaris at work and school, and XP, Tiger, (and will install Snow Tiger on a new HD I recently bought), and Ubuntu at home.

If you have an old PC that is getting too long in the tooth (not worth upgrading), try wiping the HD and installing Ubuntu 9.04, and watch that old PC fly!! Lots of free games, many old retro 80s arcade games. ;)

Getting started:
http://www.ubuntu.com/GetUbuntu/download

Very helpful community:
http://www.ubuntu.com/community

Games:
https://help.ubuntu.com/community/Games
http://www.playdeb.net/welcome/

[Greyhound]

37. Did I say your choice sucks? No.

Why give hundreds of dollars to a corporation that is working hard every day to destroy you, especially when there is a free, superior, alternative, that serves the needs of the vast majority of users?

You have chosen to take umbrage at an implication that does not exist. Hell, I'm typing this on a box booted to Win 2K.

[The Straight Story]

41. Apologies - was not directed at you

but at the whole OS wars which seem to erupt here at times.

[Greyhound]

43. Oh that. I'm a paleo-geek ( well maybe more of a meso-geek), so like you,

I find the whole microserfs vs. the world thing pointlessly amusing.

But with few exceptions, M$ does release really shitty software.

[bvar22]

28. Ubuntu is bueno....

It is my favorite of all the distros.
Great for browsing or work oriented applications,

...but I keep XP for games.

[Swamp Rat]

36. There are some cool retro 80s arcade games for Ubuntu:

;)

https://help.ubuntu.com/community/Games

[eShirl]

50. Hello Cthulhu

:rofl:

[ForeignSpectator]

31. Heard good things about Ubuntu but it's not tested by the NSA

so what good can it REALLY be?!

[Initech]

47. I have my new system set up to dual-boot Vista and Ubuntu.

Ubuntu is very sweet but it doesn't do everything Windows can.

[Toucano]

60. I haven't encountered anything productive that Ubuntu cannot do

and dozens of productivity improving tasks that it does better than Windows.

[Initech]

73. I still haven't been able to figure out how to get it to play DVDs / Blu-Rays.

[Toucano]

86. I'll give you the Blu-Ray part, but DVD's are easy enough.

Remember that I did say, "...anything productive...". :)

It is possible, though cumbersome and convoluted to get blu-ray discs to play.

For regular DVD's, just add the codecs.

sudo apt-get install ubuntu-restricted-extras

[Statistical]

107. Also illegal per DMCA (major reason why it isn't included in distro)

Of course the likelyhood you would be prosecuted is essentially 0% however some people don't feel comfortable breaking the law.

[eShirl]

48. My husband's trying to use it but probably going back to Windows

Unless we can find way to run 3DS Max on it (using a Windows emulator), or find a way to enlarge the fonts & graphics in Blender so he can actually see them to use the program, or find some other 3DS Max-like program that runs in Ubuntu that he can see well enough to create with...

(he has low vision)

[Toucano]

58. Have you tried Orca?

https://help.ubuntu.com/community/Accessibility#Screen%20Reader%20and%20Magnification

[Occulus]

95. See my post above about VirtualBox.

You install Ubuntu, install VirtualBox, and then fire up your virtual disk. The one issue I can see with your setup is the amount of RAM you'll be allocating to Windows; Max is a memory hog if my own experiences with it are still valid.

For Blender, you'll want to reduce the resolution. Although- you do know you can scroll up the size of things like the buttons panel, right? I think it's mapped to CTRL+SCROLL_UP or something like that...

I love Blender, I just don't have it installed at the moment. It's looking like Blender 2.50 will have some seriously professional tools built into it- all Blender users "in the know" are waiting for that release with growing excitement about the new features.

[Toucano]

104. CTRL + SCROLL_UP

That's the ticket!

[IDemo]

51. Mint is Ubuntu improved

http://www.linuxmint.com/rel_gloria_whatsnew.php

[RoyGBiv]

72. Indeed ...

I'm doing a reinstall this weekend and am going to go with a Mint community edition (KDE desktop) this time.

I've been playing with it in a virtual machine, and it's quite nice. I've been running Linux for years and have experimented with dozens of distributions. Mint has the simplest install I've ever experienced.

More of the things people commonly do with computers work "out of the box" (*even* in a virtual environment) than after a standard Windows XP install from scratch. That surprised me.

[Toucano]

56. The Karmic Koala beta was released today!

http://www.ubuntu.com/testing/karmic/beta#Upstart


Final coming 29, October!

[blondeatlast]

57. I remember when everyone thought XP sucked...

:rofl:

[Fumesucker]

59. I'm not even sure how many apps I have on my XP machine..

Dozens at least, possibly a hundred or more.. I'm on a 21" monitor and my desktop is just about full..

I just really don't want to have to learn to use dozens or a hundred different apps all over again, let alone reinstall them on an emulator after changing to a different OS.

I don't play games so that's not an issue but there are a great many things I do with my computer including audio editing, video editing and photo editing and enhancement.

Oh, and my oversize Super B (13x19) printer won't work reliably in Ubuntu, there are drivers but the printer crashes and burns up expensive supplies when I try to do anything beyond a standard letter size page. It took me long enough to get the thing to work well in XP, I'm tired of wasting time and money on it.

[Dirtyhairy]

65. I have had used XP for years and have had no issues.

I pay almost every singe bill online and make many online purchases and have never had any fraudulent charges.

How exactly is Microsoft financing the destruction of our national economy.

[johnaries]

66. I'm planning on switching to Ubuntu and loading "Wine"

"Wine" is an acronym for Wine Is Not an Emulator. But it allows you to run any Windows application on Unix, Linux, Mac, etc. Most of the other guys in our Tech Support department have switched to Ubuntu and LOVE IT! A couple have also loaded Wine and said it runs Windows apps better and faster than on XP or Vista.

[Statistical]

70. It is an impossibility for Wine to run windows apps faster.

One some apps it can get very close. On other apps (say web browser) they performance requirements are so low the overhead from wine is negligble.
It is simply impossible for wine to be faster. Wine simulates the windows environment and sits on top of the OS. The nice thing is processor power continues to increase so the penalty for high processor systems like WINE becomes less of a burden.

Application
Windows
Drivers
Hardware

VS

Application
WIN
Linux
Drivers
Hardware

[BlooInBloo]

74. WINE isn't an emulator. It's a re-working of the windows apis. It is possible...

If enough of the right apis are faster, then some apps will be faster.

I have no idea if it's true or not, but it's perfectly well possible.

[Statistical]

75. I never used the word emulator.

WINE is a layer of abstraction.

Linux has existing API.

It works like this:
Windows App Code -> WINE -> Linux Api -> drivers -> hardware

Now if it worked like this then it could be faster:
Windows App Code -> WINE > drivers -> hardware

Of course a setup like this would be incredibly complex to develop. You would essentially be-rewritting all the OS functions inside WINE. WINE would be as large as a distro. It would also be massive complex, and require much more troubleshooting.

Windows App Code -> WINE -> Linux Api -> drivers -> hardware

Having WINE call Linux API is a "shortcut". It seperate the work. As long as the Linux api is efficient and bug free wine dev team can focus on just the interaction between windows code & the linux api.

Windows App Code -> WINE -> Linux Api

This abstraction however comes as at a price. It is another software layer between the actual hardware and the high level application.

Windows App Code -> WINE -> Linux Api -> drivers -> hardware
vs
Windows App Code -> W32 Api -> drivers -> hardware

[BlooInBloo]

85. Irrelevant details of who said precisely what words, as well as pretty ascii pictures aside...

it was, is, and will remain perfectly possible for WINE to be faster at running windows apps than windows itself, and for the reason I stated.

It happens to be true in an least some cases, as well. Happy googling!

[hunter]

103. Windows has many layers of abstraction too.

It does not go:

Windows App Code -> W32 Api -> drivers -> hardware

It's more like:

Windows App Code -> W32 Api -> W32 Api -> W32 Api -> Hardware Abstraction Layer -> Hardware Abstraction Layer -> drivers -> ->drivers -> drivers -> hardware. Even that road is littered with exceptions, kludgey patches, and detours. This kind of thing goes on inside modern CPUs too. What's optimum for one CPU won't be for another.

It's entirely possible for WINE to run Windows applications as fast or faster than Windows; it all depends on how much effort has gone into optimizing the code. This is true for both Microsoft and the WINE teams.

The crud and cruft that is limiting speeds in both systems isn't always the same but it's very similar.

Microsoft is further crippled by the fact that there is a greater expectation for them to support their own old code, most especially the kinds of code that gets them into trouble with hairball operating systems like ME and Vista and the great rat's nest of old Windows applications many businesses depend on.

Which is not to say Ubuntu is better, but it's free, and it does everything I want it to do.

[Toucano]

88. I consider Windows apps pollution of my system.

There are Open Source alternatives to everything.

[BlooInBloo]

94. I think people who get all religious-y about their computer system are weird....

Mac people are the funniest, naturally, but *nix people are a hoot as well.

[Toucano]

98. There is a missionary component to it. You're right.

Is it any weirder than campaigning for a political candidate or public policy issue?


Because it actually is important.

In the last 13 months, I have personally converted 17 tech support clients to Ubuntu (small businesses, mostly). From those clients, I have received ONE phone call for a printer related issue. A house cat had chewed the USB cable. It was fixed in 2 minutes.


Have you ever considered how much of our public resources go to acquiring and maintaining (literally feeding) a private technology corporation? The education sector alone is expected to spend close to $60 billion dollars in 2009.

Imagine all those public institutions being free of much of that expense and being able to give teacher's raises instead! Imagine not having to cut art, theatre and music programs!

Have you considered the cost to the environment of Microsoft's ever increasing hardware demands? The life expectancy of a PC is jsut 2 to 5 years! That's a lot of toxic waste being produced when the vast majority of people worldwide simply write emails, surf the internet, and instant message. The truth is that toxic cast-off hardware is being dumped in the developing world.

Ending the waste of materials and resources caused by Microsoft's critically inefficient products is as much of a "religion" as advocating public transportation, stopping global warming, and fighting for universal health care.

Open Source is freedom + knowledge + sharing - stress. All good things.

[BlooInBloo]

100. (shrug) It's computers. You're not going to get me to care about the details. It's computers.

[Toucano]

102. Then why are you even reading this thread?

Such apathy and myopia is usually reserved for "independents".

[BlooInBloo]

109. Threads are for those who disagree, as well as those who agree....

Have fun on your religious crusade to convert the heathen users of Whatever You Don't Like.

EDIT: Note that I didn't reply to this thread except to correct a simple factual error.

[Toucano]

122. You can disagree, sure. But you don't disagree.

You're apathetic. You said no one can make you care.

I was just curious why someone who didn't care about the issue would involve themselves.

But you did reply to this thread for more than correcting a factual error. You made an observation about the OS wars, likening it to a crusade.

No foul, to me, of course.

[RoyGBiv]

110. There's a political element to it ...

It's not, in the broadest sense, just about computers.

Certainly elements of "fan-boy-ism" exist with all platforms, and this will always be the case with everything from operating systems to hardware brands to the kind of monitor you use. People who love their CRT screens really, really *love* their CRT screens, for example. Why is this important in this context? It's similar to the argument that goes on between those who prefer analog music as opposed to digital, or film vs. video tape. It matters to the visual purist, some graphics designers, etc.

But, it's more than that as well.

Again with the monitors, you've got issues related to energy consumption. One can bring up waste products in production and disposal. Where are the companies that make these screens and how do they treat their employees? Has the manufacturer bowed to Big Media and allowed a crippling circuit to be installed that would interfere with accurate visual imaging of an MRI scan if the doctor or hospital has not purchased the *correct* equipment, "correct" being that equipment that also bows to Big Media. (This was a real issue with Vista and the hardware certified as Vista compliant.)

With operating systems, the issues are legion. Already mention was the bare financial issue. We've also got matters of law, patent and copyright law specifically, to talk about. Then there is the fact that the two most common proprietary operating systems on the planet are produced by massive corporations that work diligently the same way many other enormous corporations work in limiting consumer choice and maximizing profit for an elite group at the expense of society as a whole.

There's a bill in Congress at this moment called the Open College Textbook Act of 2009 introduced by Senator Richard Durbin. The bill would establish federal grant money for the production of college textbooks and would then require that those books be published under an "open" license, i.e. freely available. This bill will never pass because the Publishing industry, backed by the software industry will pump millions at least into a few key Senators' pockets to let it die in committee.

What does this have to do with computers? Just this. The concept of this is based on the same concept that works behind the publication of free software, and the reason for attempting it is the same reason for pursuing open source software choices. The publishing industry as a whole has an effective monopoly in which no competition exists. Sure, there are different publishers, but that one book you need for that one class is only published by this one publisher, and the reality is that a few very large publishers (and book distributors and sales outlets) control the market entirely ... sorta like Microsoft.

Open Source software, like the potential of open source books, offers a low cost option for those seeking knowledge and those who cannot afford legally acquiring all that one needs to run a Windows or Apple based machine. I have the equivalent of over $5000 worth of Windows software on my system, all of it acquired legally, all of it doing everything I need to do -- and I do a lot with my system. Multiply that out by several hundred thousand college students who draw money from grants, government backed loans, and their own pockets just to try to survive while still needing these books and that software to do what they need to do to try to better their lives.

It's not "just" a computer.

[BlooInBloo]

115. Probably the biggest reason people laugh at religious computer fanboys...

Is their dogma - whether up-front an explicit, or cowardly and implicit - of moral superiority.

[RoyGBiv]

116. I don't disagree ...

... but that's similar to the reason Democrats laugh at Republicans and Republicans laugh at Democrats. What *we* believe is important is laughable to that other person. We often believe we are morally superior to another person or group because of these choices we make and these opinions we hold. Are we right or wrong? I know of no real governing authority on what is moral. I know what I believe to be moral or ethical, just as you do, and I will judge based on that.

One cannot, for example, go on a regular tirade about the evils of large corporations and try to garner support for a boycott of some company for this or that reason, then in another breath tell me their rationalizations for using the products offered by a large corporation that engages in the same activities as they one they rail against and expect me to take them seriously. For all the complaining we do in this forum about corporations, you'd think some people would be more consistent. Make no mistake. Microsoft (and Apple and Novell) are massive corporations, and they do not have society's best interests at heart. The choices we make affect that.

Now, please don't misunderstand. I'm not a fanboy by any means. When I give out technical advice, I mostly remove my politics and personal preferences from it and attempt to tailor that advice for the individual. I've encouraged individuals *not* to use Linux, specifically people who need a CAD system and others whom I realize simply will not deal with the change in perceptions required. Put another way, I actually get where you're coming from with the bit about it being "just" a computer. I pick my battles carefully, and this particular battle often isn't worth it between individuals.

That said, neither will I avoid pointing out what the issues with this actually are when I find it necessary. You're a reasonable person with a keen ability to see through the fog of stuff and nonsense that surrounds a lot of issues, so I thought it was necessary in this case.

[BlooInBloo]

119. Drawing an equivalence in "the" reason Democrats and republicans laugh at each other is silly...

That silliness is compounded by extending the equivalence to people laughing at computer religious fanboys.

If you're paid to give somebody the best (legal) *business* advice about IT possible, and "politics and person preferences" comes into it at all, then you're doing your employer a disservice, imo.

If it's all-things-considered better for the specific business to uproot the entire company's IT systems and lay down *nix roots, cool. If it's better to not, cool. No matter what one's "feelings" or "preferences" about Microsoft may be. That's not being a hypocrite, that's doing what you're paid to do.

[RoyGBiv]

120. As I said ...

I pick my battles, and I see this is a pointless one.

Having declared my position "silly" without actually addressing it, you win.

Good day.

[LanternWaste]

78. Coke v. Pepsi, Part II

Coke v. Pepsi, Part II

New & Improved!
Tastes Great. Less Filling.
Nine Out Of Ten Doctors Recommend.
Licensed, Bonded & Insured.

[Toucano]

87. This could be apt if....

Coke cost money and Pepsi were free.

Coke had minimum requirements of it's consumer that were more than double the minimum requirements of Pepsi. If you didn't meet the minimum requirements, you would not be able to drink your Coke.

A Coke could only be consumed by the original purchaser. No sharing or pouring into another vessel.

No one would know what was actually in a Coca-Cola, but a Pepsi would have it's ingredients listed plainly.

While consuming a Coke, it would occasionally freeze and you would have to stop and reopen the container to begin consuming it again.

Every time you drank your Coke, you would have to take a pill to prevent viral infections.



I could go on. :)

[LanternWaste]

89. A Pepsi fan. Nice.

A Pepsi fan. Nice. We all prefer what we like...

[Occulus]

97. In this case, it's more than a simple like/dislike question

The question here involves actual access to the operating system's heart and brain. Micro$oft locks its kernel up completely- to use another anaolgy, the hood of the car is welded shut and there's a metal plate covering the bottom of the engine. To service the vehicle, you must take it to a certified dealer mechanic unless you paid the dealer $DOOM for the toolset necessary.

The linux kernel, by contrast, is completely open, much like the hood on the car you have now. You can open your hood and change the spark plugs, check the air filter, and put fluid in the radiator, or (if you like) you can take out the engine, take it apart piece by piece, replace one component with another, or plop in a whole new engine. Best of all, the garage you're doing all that work in comes with the all the tools you need as a matter of course.

It's just not as simple as Coke/Pepsi.

[Statistical]

108. Microsoft charges for updates?

If you want an analogy it would be like a car with sealed engine because 99% of people don't know what the hell they are doing inside there.

In return for the purchase of a vehicle the dealership includes lifetime fixes to the engine (only done by dealer's engineers).

Most people simply do not want to play "mechanic". In the TCO for a major corporation OS license is essentially negligible.

[RoyGBiv]

117. Why, yes they do ...

You pay for a license that, as of the most recent licenses, includes updates (minor revisions) to that version.

Then you pay again when a new version (major revision) is offered.

[Statistical]

121. XP was released in 2000. It still works.

It is still supported and security updates will be available until 2014.

14 years of support for single $99 license = <$0.75 per month.

If you buy another OS that is like buying a new car. XP still works there is no reason to upgrade. If you WANT to purchase another OS that is a choice made by the consumer.

The analogy only works if Microsoft forced anyone to upgrade and charged for every upgrade. Neither of which is true.

[RoyGBiv]

131. Irrelevant to the point ...

The comment to which I replied insinuated that Microsoft did not charge for updates. They do charge for updates.

[Statistical]

138. No they charge for a NEW PRODUCT.

It would be akin to considering buying a new car and saying GM charges $24,000 for an "upgrade".

XP is still supported. It has a 14 year life cycle. All upgrades during that 14 year life cycle are included in the purchase price. $100 / 14 years = less than $0.75 per month. You will spend far more than that on electricity costs.

[gkhouston]

118. +10. Most people probably won't need to futz with their kernels, but having

that capability is irreplaceable, IMHO. :thumbsup:

[Greyhound]

136. If Coke were say, a Ferrari and was free and Pepsi was a Corvette that cost $200K,

that would be a good analogy.

[fascisthunter]

79. there ya go

[L0oniX]

83. Bah ...FreeBSD rules ...but it's not for newbees.

[phasma ex machina]

84. You said it! nt

[negativenihil]

101. I'll see your FreeBSD...

and raise you NetBSD! "Of course it runs NetBSD!"

;)

(i am a long time bsd nerd - was weened on SunOS 4.x and then switched over to the free/netbsd side of things ;) )

[hunter]

114. I was originally a BSD nerd. Not FreeBSD, not NetBSD, the BSD.

I've still got a few of the old manuals. These were spit out by the university's big smelly laser printer, copied on grungy copy machines, and bound. Using a slow modem or a dumb terminal on a busy day, it was quicker and less trouble to look at a paper manual. Or maybe we were accustomed to paper.

I'm not so attached to BSD itself. After a long march through the bleak deserts of Apple and Microsoft, through to System 7 and Windows 98SE, Debian was like going home.

[Deja Q]

123. 9.10 came out and they're using bleeding edge technology - including a new file system...

You're right about Microsoft, however.

[DainBramaged]

127. One question and one question only

Being free, If Ubuntu is so good, why isn't it used in schools instead of Mac or Windows?


:shrug:

[Deja Q]

128. Or why professional companies like Adobe won't support it?

GIMP is *no* replacement for Photoshop, to say the least...

[DainBramaged]

129. I have a system waiting for it, but just don't have the time

A 'trade in' older Dell. But being I have never used it before, it will have to be one of those 'oh shit, it's a rainy Saturday, let's go for the gold' kind of days and I'll dive in.

[tjwash]

133. Not sure about MAC OS, but Windows and UNIX is given away free to schools

When I was an engineer with Sun, we used to give away tons of equipment and OS's free to edu's just because the prevailing thought was if the kids get used to using them, then they were more likely to buy and purchase them later in life.

That was actually an IBM thing that caught on with quite a few manufacturers over the decades.

[RoyGBiv]

135. School administrators aren't very educated ...

... not in this.

The classic example is from a school in Texas where a teacher sometime last year confiscated a student's LiveCD of a *nix operating system. Why? Ever seen _American Pie_?

"I think he's watching illegal channels!"

"Illegal channels?"

The teacher believed the student had "illegal" software. When the student tried to explain what it was, she went so far as to claim that no one gives away software for free and accused the student of piracy.

In other words, the people that matter don't even know what it is. Those who do often think there's something inherently wrong with it because it's free, sort of like my uncle who spent hundreds of dollars trying (and failing) to find the perfect anti-virus software rather than let his idiot (I'm a Democrat and therefore stupid) nephew clean his machine and install Avast for the price of dinner.

Or, put another way, buy fresh fruits and vegetable from a local farmer's market often gets you better quality food cheaper than you can find it in a supermarket, but most people still go to supermarkets. That's changing, just as the slavish devotion to proprietary software is also changing.

OnEdit: That's actually not the only answer, as I'm sure you know. A lot of it is about the so-called preparing the students for the world marketplace. In the current environment, you have to have knowledge of at least Windows to find a job. And this creates a self-perpetuating cycle.

[Greyhound]

137. Good answer.

I would also point out that it is used in schools across the world, just not much here.

[bhikkhu]

132. If you've got a dead, virus-addled Windows box, its perfect

I've used Ubuntu for years now and it just keeps getting better, slicker and easier. I only switched to begin with after two windows computers locked up permanently, and then I found I'd have to purchase new windows licenses if I wanted to run windows again.:(

Anyway, I just got a Ubuntu Cd and reformatted the hard-drives, and no problem. It works perfectly, and its free.

[tjwash]

134. I have an dead old POS that I might try it on