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Since I live in SC, here are the choices and ideas proposed by DUers if the state opts out.

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Are_grits_groceries Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-10-09 11:11 AM
Original message
Since I live in SC, here are the choices and ideas proposed by DUers if the state opts out.
1-Who cares? You deserve it because of the idiots that were elected. (Thanks - that warms the cockles of my heart.)

2-Great Idea! This will put pressure on the Rethugs and they will have to stay in. (Are you really familiar with the intracacies of the politics at the state level in SC or other states? You are acting like they will respond as reasonable people. Why should they start now.)

3-Great idea! The people will vote them out of office. (Do you not comprehend the amount of money that will be spent in states to get them to opt out? Have you not already heard the outrageous lies that have been told already to scare the crap out of people? The insurance companies will land in here with money and lies ready to go. They will do so in hopes of eventually sandbagging the entire plan.)

4-Move to a state that stays in. (Gee thanks. I have no money to begin to set up a household in another state. I am doing my best to hang in one place.)

5-Hope that over time things will change. (Yes. States certainly moved at light speed to pass civil rights laws without federal intervention)

In addition, you are singing the song the Rethugs want to hear! This will be made into a "states' rights" issue, and they will shout that from the rooftops. They will also use this as a gambit to open the door to other issues they consider to be states' rights.

I had hopes of electing a Democratic Governor. Sanford has given the Republicans a bad name to say the least. We have a good candidate in Vince Sheheen. He brought in an Obama operative to run his campaign, and he is raising a lot of money.

Then boom goes the dynamite. Here comes the opt-out health care plan down the road. That will become the burning election issue. I can hear the squabbling now.

Why doesn't Congress make a plan that leaves no doubt about who is covered?

A quote from a thread:

"I'm sick of the red state people controlling everything."

Correct me I'm wrong, but isn't there a Democratic President, a Democratic majority in the House, and A Democratic majority in the Senate?

The Republican Senators and Representatives are mean and obstructionist little shits or worse.
It does make it harder to carry out Democratic proposals, but not impossible.

The Democrats have the power to override those "mean little shits," but they are averse to doing so.

Don't put the blame entirely on the Red States.


This will probably turn into a South bashing thread. I guess that would help fill the quota for the week.
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blueworld Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-10-09 11:42 AM
Response to Original message
1. This is such an important point. Thanks. Opt out will hurt ALL states.
I also live in a red state with a Dem. governor. I believe I've stated elsewhere my pop's family emigrated from Italy & my mom's family is from the south & still here. I lived for years in NJ & moved south (as we'uns all seem to do in mom's family) when I got older. I have a dog in both fights, you might say. I love both areas.

The red states do not dominate many issues (Olympia Snowe case in point) however we have more real-estate area, less population, less money & therefore poorer health & education. All the industries that used to keep us employed are now either illegal or in China.

We also have a significantly higher rate of religious wing-nuts who seem to have the power to scare all the ridiculous politicians (of both parties) that the country is currently burdened with.

The only institution large & powerful enough to fight corporate America & their greed is the US government. States can't do it, they're practically bankrupt now regardless of red or blue. This opt-out plan is a death knell for true health reform.

Medicaid is a federal insurance plan administered by states & my friend can't find a pediatrician in my local area of VA that will accept it. She drives 30 miles each way to get her kid basic well-care. The doctors & hospitals individually "opt out" as it is.

This is not a "states rights" issue, IMHO. And even the blue states will be screwed a few years down the road if they allow this phony compromise to be implemented.



:rant:
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roguevalley Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-10-09 08:50 PM
Response to Reply #1
58. I am praying it won't be constitutional. the south will be knocked onto
its face and given that the leadership there has lied to the people and they don't know the truth, that would suck gigantically. I would go over state lines and lie about a residence to get healthcare for my family. but since I live in Alaska it would be easier to go to Russia than go to the lower 48. this country sucks so big sometimes ...
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madfloridian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-10-09 11:44 AM
Response to Original message
2. 3 people yesterday suggested I just move from Florida.
:shrug:

That's how much they would support the opt out. To the exclusion of all common sense...just telling someone to pick up and move.
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Wednesdays Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-10-09 11:52 AM
Response to Reply #2
5. Well, isn't that how it's supposed to be?
After all, "personal responsibility, personal responsibility, personal responsibility" is the mantra of the land, isn't it? :spank:
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madfloridian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-10-09 12:57 PM
Response to Reply #5
31. heh heh
nail on head.
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csziggy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-10-09 02:53 PM
Response to Reply #2
46. If it were just a matter of picking and moving, the uninsured would move to Canada
Or pick from any number of countries that already have health care for all to live in.

And "just voting them out" is not going to work so well when they have gerrymandered their districts to favor their party.
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Blue State Blues Donating Member (575 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-10-09 11:46 AM
Response to Original message
3. Isn't making it an individual option, optional enough?
If the people of the state are really that opposed to the public option, they don't have to join it. no one has to join it. That's the whole "option" part.

But to allow a state government to make sure that no one in the state could have it, even the people who want and need it ... that's just wrong.

From the coast to the piedmont, the people of South Carolina deserve better.
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BlooInBloo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-10-09 11:51 AM
Response to Original message
4. (shrug) Y'all have been pining away for "states' rights" for over a hundred years...
Always nice to see people get what people want.

If you don't like it so much, you may wish to consult with the people of your own state.
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Wednesdays Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-10-09 11:56 AM
Response to Reply #4
6. The ones who've been pining are the ones who benefitted from it
All others have to fend for themselves.
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11 Bravo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-10-09 12:04 PM
Response to Reply #4
8. Does it require a sustained daily effort to be a constant asshole ...
or is it merely second nature?
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BlooInBloo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-10-09 12:10 PM
Response to Reply #8
9. I can't take all the credit....
Y'all make it really easy for me. So I spread the thanks all around on that one. :)
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11 Bravo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-10-09 01:24 PM
Response to Reply #9
41. Don't sell yourself short.. Your brand of unrelenting unpleasantness ...
is clearly genuine, and has to come from inside.
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Hosnon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-10-09 12:15 PM
Response to Reply #4
11. Ah...I needed my daily dose of "Bloo Southern Bigotry". nt.
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paulk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-10-09 12:02 PM
Response to Original message
7. the way I understand it, it would be a referendum vote
one year after the plan has been enacted. I don't know if one year is long enough for the plan to prove itself - maybe it will be a disaster and even blue states will opt out. Or maybe none of the states will... with recent polls showing that even a plurality of Republicans want a public option, it's going to be difficult for the GOP to take a successful program away from it's constituents.
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Are_grits_groceries Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-10-09 12:16 PM
Response to Reply #7
12. The plan will not be enacted until 2013.
That would give everybody 4 years to squabble about it. Do you think the insurance companies and the opposition are just going to sit quietly for 4 years? I don't think so.

I don't even want to think about those 4 years.
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csziggy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-10-09 02:56 PM
Response to Reply #12
47. That is one of my problems with the states' opt out thing
It will just keep the fight going and going and going. Let's get this thing done NOW.

I HATE the 2013 part of any of the plans now up for consideration - we need health care reform NOW, not four years from now when everybody will get more chances to dick around with it.
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paulk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-10-09 06:13 PM
Response to Reply #12
52. do you have a link for that?
aren't there several different public options coming out of Congress? It seems to me that the opt out plan would give the Dems the cover for a real public option, instead of the crap that's been proposed so far...

And I don't find scare mongering about insurance companies a particularly compelling argument...
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jtrockville Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-10-09 12:14 PM
Response to Original message
10. Don't forget: this is how the Canadian system got started.
And they have a wonderful NATIONAL system now.
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Are_grits_groceries Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-10-09 12:20 PM
Response to Reply #10
13. IMHO, the political construct of the country of Canada
Edited on Sat Oct-10-09 12:20 PM by Are_grits_groceries
differs a lot from the US.

The senator from my state, Jim DeMint, really does want a revolution. He would like to go back to the "Articles of Confederation" and then wind down from there.
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anonymous171 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-10-09 12:23 PM
Response to Original message
14. I just don't want to waste anymore political capital trying to appease the GOP
This would force them to either opt-out or shut up and take it.
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Are_grits_groceries Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-10-09 12:30 PM
Response to Reply #14
16. Then don't appease them.
Obama, Reid, and Pelosi need to get some balls and use the majority they were given. It's time to play some serious hardball to get a decent plan for everybody.

They are already saying not one Republican will vote for the bill so why bother with them. Ram it down there throats.

If this isn't an important enough issue to do this, then I don't know what is. IMHO, there is only one other issue that is as urgent and needs to be corrected for the good of the people AND the financial health of the nation. (That would be the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan.)

Health care costs are a fiscal issue.

The Dems can do this if they want to change the system badly enough.
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anonymous171 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-10-09 12:35 PM
Response to Reply #16
18. You force it down their throats and they will do one of two things:
1) If it does work, they will claim that it was always their idea, or that they were worried that it wouldn't work but that they are glad that they allowed it to happen. This allows the GOP spin it in their favor, which would be bad.

2) If it fails or does not have much of an impact, then they will use public discontent to consolidate their power and gain even more power than they already have.

By allowing them to opt-out, we are essentially telling them to put their money where their mouth is. If they opt out, they are denying their citizens healthcare and it will cost them big. If they don't, they cannot spin it either way because we can just say that it was optional and they chose to allow it.
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DireStrike Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-11-09 06:51 PM
Response to Reply #18
61. I appreciate your cynicism, however
Edited on Sun Oct-11-09 06:52 PM by DireStrike
I think it would be very difficult for them to claim a huge social entitlement program for themselves. They would put up a fight, but I think we can fight back a bit now.

The entire thing has always been a gambit. If any health issue fails we are well and truly fucked. If we get no solution, we are also fucked. And by 'we' I mean the Democrats, capital D. Us little people ALWAYS get fucked.
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Fumesucker Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-10-09 12:30 PM
Response to Reply #14
17. The state by state opt out is indeed appeasement of the right ...
How anyone could see it as anything else is hard to imagine.
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anonymous171 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-10-09 12:36 PM
Response to Reply #17
19. How is it appeasement exactly? If they do not want it, they don't have to have it.
If the PO is as good as I think it is, then there is no reason that their decision to opt-out will end in disaster for the GOP.
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Fumesucker Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-10-09 12:58 PM
Response to Reply #19
32. It will end in disaster for many Americans..
Not that many Democrats care for an awful lot of Americans.

"Fuck 'em, they didn't vote for us", that's how many seem to feel about those of us living in the South.


Didn't sound good coming from a Republican about Democrats, it sounds worse coming from other Democrats.
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anonymous171 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-10-09 01:00 PM
Response to Reply #32
35. Giving republicans healthcare would be rewarding bad behavior
They don't want it anyways, so I see no reason to force this on them.
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Fumesucker Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-10-09 01:17 PM
Response to Reply #35
39. What about those who did vote Democratic?
Some of the Democrats strongest supporters are in the South, it's often hard to be a Democrat down here.

Those are the ones who you are abandoning with this and it's clear you don't care.

Putting it in civil rights terms ,should the Dems have let the South keep Jim Crow?

You either think health care is a civil right or you don't.





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anonymous171 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-10-09 01:24 PM
Response to Reply #39
40. The majority of Americans want a PO. It's hardly as devisive as Civil Rights in the 60s
I'm looking out for the country as a whole. It is the in country's best interest to destroy the GOP. If we continue to insulate working republicans from their own decisions, nothing will ever get done. They need to recognize that the GOP, for all their Jesus talk, does not represent their values. If some democrats have to be denied a PO for a while, then that's a sacrifice we should be willing to make.
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Are_grits_groceries Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-10-09 01:26 PM
Response to Reply #40
43. "We"?????????
What do you mean "we?"

It doesn't sound like you are going to sacrifice anything or worry about those who do.
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Fumesucker Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-10-09 01:31 PM
Response to Reply #40
44. Your death is a sacrifice I'm willing to make too..
Edited on Sat Oct-10-09 01:32 PM by Fumesucker
Don't that make you feel all warm and loved?


ETA: Oh yeah, apparently you don't think health care is a right.


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smoogatz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-10-09 04:53 PM
Response to Reply #40
51. Try again.
This time with concern for other people. And you might want to consider the historical example: when the New Deal passed it passed for everyone, over the bitter objections of Republicans. Ditto Social Security. Likewise Medicare. Yet all three programs were wildly popular, and were precursors to generational leftward shifts in the makeup of congress. If the program's good, and the voters identify it with Democrats, they'll vote for Democrats. Simple.
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nadinbrzezinski Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-10-09 08:22 PM
Response to Reply #40
55. Nothing personal but you live in a large city, probably in a blue state
Right?

Just a guess and I am thinking you are right.

You have no idea how the caste system works amongst the working poor, and this is not just limited to the South either.

People need to get a clue... opt out is a way not just to appease the GOP but to keep the caste system going.

By the way the level of propaganda and work to keep the caste system in-place is NOT limited to the South either...
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Thickasabrick Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-10-09 12:24 PM
Response to Original message
15. I live in NC and although I think there may be a relative 50-50 chance
we would opt-in, I still think we should all be pulling for abandoning the opt-out option. To penalize these states because of their dominated right wing political machines would be criminal. Our party made tremendous strides during the last big election in reaching out to the many under-represented voters in these states. This would be abandoning those people which is unacceptable.

Agree 100% with your post.
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smoogatz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-10-09 12:39 PM
Response to Original message
20. If you see HCR as a political weapon, opt out makes perfect sense.
It would be a potent weapon indeed, once the word got out in the opted-out (deep red) states about the ways in which HCR was helping people in their neighboring states. Nobody could claim it had been forced down their throats; instead you'd see generations of red-staters taking a close look at their governors and legislators and wondering what in the hell they were thinking when they elected them. Meanwhile, in the slightly less wingnutty states, HCR would actually be helping people across the political spectrum. That said, I agree with you--opt-out misses the point, which is that people need help in EVERY state.
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treestar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-10-09 12:39 PM
Response to Original message
21. It would be better than nothing
But I would prefer it to be national, so I'm with you.

Your governor might try to not take the money, maybe, but perhaps that would not be an option.

Your state is likely to be one of the last states to ever turn blue, so keep up the good fight.
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Are_grits_groceries Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-10-09 12:45 PM
Response to Reply #21
25. I'll be dead by the time this good fight is over.
I have been fighting for over 50 years to help in civil rights, elect Democratic people, enact progressive policies, etc.

Even when my state might not be moveable in an election, I sent money and helped out in other states.

Now we need some help in pushing a decent plan through so all the people have a chance without fighting again.

Forget that. See you later, and by the way, keep fighting.
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treestar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-10-09 12:59 PM
Response to Reply #25
34. That's true. States' rights don't do so much good when you are a liberal
in a red state.

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Are_grits_groceries Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-10-09 12:39 PM
Response to Original message
22. Here are some maps from the 2008 election.
Check out the vote shift map.
Notice how many areas were trending blue.

And you can see that Redland isn't confined to the South.

http://elections.nytimes.com/2008/results/president/map.html?scp=1&sq=2008%20election%20maps&st=Search

One way to improve the map and reveal more nuance in the vote is to use not just two colors, red and blue, but to use red, blue, and shades of purple in between to indicate percentages of votes. Here is what the normal map looks like if you do this:


http://www-personal.umich.edu/~mejn/election/2008/

We are a Purple country.
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anonymous171 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-10-09 12:41 PM
Response to Reply #22
24. And an opt-out PO would help reward the blues and convert the reds.
I see no downside whatsoever.
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Are_grits_groceries Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-10-09 12:48 PM
Response to Reply #24
26. Did you not read the original post?
You assume it will be as easy as pie to move the states back if they opt out.

If that makes it easier for you to accept the plan and not worry, then believe away. Believe in the tooth fairy too.
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anonymous171 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-10-09 01:11 PM
Response to Reply #26
38. I belive in Democracy. The red states, by virtue of their redness, have chosen not to have HC
Edited on Sat Oct-10-09 01:11 PM by anonymous171
They elected anti-HCR people to office and now they are going to live with the consequences.
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Brickbat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-10-09 12:41 PM
Response to Original message
23. I would like, just once, for Republican representatives to actually get what they say and think they
want. Republican voters, too. Sure, it would be good for some of them. But for a lot of them it wouldn't be. Sometimes I think it might be the only thing that opens their eyes. Yes, people would stay sick. Yes, people would die. I didn't say my wish was rational.
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CBGLuthier Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-10-09 12:49 PM
Response to Original message
27. Some memebers of DU once suggested that we Oklahomans should all burn to death. during our wild fir
So suck it up Carolinians. :-)

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Are_grits_groceries Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-10-09 12:53 PM
Response to Reply #27
28. We'll suck it up together.
We have such wonderful Senators.
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Are_grits_groceries Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-10-09 12:56 PM
Response to Original message
29. Opt-Out States Are “Where the Majority of the Black Population in This Country Lives”
This an opinion from one African american:

From rikrya:

<snip>
I feel as others on ‘the left of the left’ – this is utter BULLSHIT.

States can ‘ opt out’?

WTF IS THAT?

So, if I live in New York, I can get insurance, but not if I live in Alabama.

I have said from the beginning about healthcare is that I see it as a right. I see it as a CIVIL RIGHT.

WHY am I getting deja vu once again, going back to the creation of Social Security and those who talked about ‘ getting something – you know FDR didn’t get all he wanted on social security at first…it had to come in…over time..’

Yes, over time….on the BACKS OF BLACK PEOPLE WHO WERE CHEATED OUT OF WHAT THEY HAD WORKED FOR. For nearly a GENERATION, Blacks who worked in certain professions, who got up every damn day and went to work at underpaid, underappreciated jobs, were CHEATED OUT OF THE CHANCE TO PUT INTO SOCIAL SECURITY, and the end result of that is those that actually made it to Senior Citizenhood, had FAR LOWER BENEFITS.

States ‘ opt out’?

How the hell is that anything other than STATES RIGHTS?

Oh, how it’s ok for these ‘ state opt outs’, where the MAJORITY OF THE BLACK POPULATION in this country lives. Just name a state where you think that the state would ‘ opt out’, and outside of Utah and Wyoming, there’s a sizeable Black population.

I told you, I have no interest in a shiny signing ceremony for a piece of legislation that is bullshyt and doesn’t fix the problem. I don’t care if The President ever gets another shiny signing ceremony.
http://www.jackandjillpolitics.com/2009/10/dems-discuss... /

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anonymous171 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-10-09 12:57 PM
Response to Reply #29
30. Your point?
I don't really care who lives there. The only thing that matters is who they (the citizens of those states) elect to represent themselves.
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Are_grits_groceries Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-10-09 01:05 PM
Response to Reply #30
36. Thank you for playing Health Care Reform.
Your prizes will be sent to you by FedEx.

We will also send a case of Empathy for you to use. It might help your condition. That can be terminal if not treated.
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smoogatz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-10-09 04:49 PM
Response to Reply #36
50. In this case it may not just be an empathy problem. n/t
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Celebration Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-10-09 12:59 PM
Response to Original message
33. I doubt if the red states would actually opt out
It would just give them something to bluster about.
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Are_grits_groceries Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-10-09 01:08 PM
Response to Reply #33
37. Did you read the OP
and are just ignoring the reality in some states?

As I said to someone else, if by believing that red won't opt out will soothe your conscience so you can accept that kind of HCR it, then go for it. Believe in Santa too. I'll bet you'll see him first.
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Celebration Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-10-09 08:14 PM
Response to Reply #37
53. yes I did
But they wouldn't do it because they wouldn't want to be thrown out of office. Nobody ended up rejecting the stimulus package, did they? It was just a bunch of bluster and threats.

This would just make them put up or shut up. I live in a red state, BTW.
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CrownPrinceBandar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-10-09 01:25 PM
Response to Original message
42. I know what you're talking about..........
I posted this yesterday:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=6730936&mesg_id=6738135

I'm not for half-measures that are adopted to get a certain number of people on board. These are people's lives we're talking about.
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Warren Stupidity Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-10-09 02:08 PM
Response to Original message
45. That 'majority' in the Senate is the problem.
Some of our purported Democratic Senators will not vote for a public option. These same senators may in fact support a fillibuster to block any legislation that doesn't meet their demands. So progress, any progress, is being held hostage to the demands of a handfull of corrupt asswipes.

If the compromise they will accept is an opt-out provision I think we should take that deal. Despite the opinions to the contrary, I agree with Nate Silver that very few if any states will actually vote to opt out, and if they do, they will opt back in on short order due to voter outrage.

The vast majority of people will not be affected one way or the other by an opt-out or opt-in decision. That is because this reform bill, in any of its mainstream versions, is so weak to begin with that it will not change the way the vast majority currently receive health care at all. So I don't take all that seriously the hair wrenching and teeth gnashing. Are you insured now? If so, and unless you are paying for your own insurance, you will not see any major changes regardless of what your state does.
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Toucano Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-10-09 02:57 PM
Response to Original message
48. It's "I got mine" syndrome all over again, isn't it? n-t
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cayanne Donating Member (682 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-10-09 04:08 PM
Response to Original message
49. Coming from Idaho
I agree with you.
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nadinbrzezinski Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-10-09 08:18 PM
Response to Original message
54. Well not a south bashing thread
but a caste bashing thread.

The US has a caste system. I went into it the other day. And those idiots who believe that this caste is limited to ... the south... better buy a clue.

As to what you said about why this will not help you...

Well to any DU'er willing to do some readying, and thinking, here is a book I recommend.

Deer Huting with Jesus.

And no, I don't expect much to change in this caste system, which is alive and well in my backyard, and no I am not in the South either, until we are willing to chip away at it. Health Care is but the first step.

By the way those who are going... BUT... that is your urban liberal talking. Listen to those in Red States... or Red Counties.
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nadinbrzezinski Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-10-09 08:25 PM
Response to Original message
56. Oh and to add, some of do get it
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x6731981

Even if we live in blue states... (well sort off. I am on the right side of the ideological border, but not by much)
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KoKo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-10-09 08:29 PM
Response to Original message
57. I grew up in SC...I feel your pain..I'm of the Hollings as the great Dem Hope Generation...
Edited on Sat Oct-10-09 08:30 PM by KoKo
probably well before your time.

When Hollings left office it went to the Pit Bulls. SC is well beyond the state I grew up in...to the Fundie Christian side. I didn't grow up with that...I weep for what was...and what it has become.

I do read some SC Blogs that are more Progressive...so I have some hope for a new generation to take back the state.

But then...SC has always been a weird bird. Always looking to pick a fight and has way too much control in DC than it's small state status and population would warrant.. Yet, they are always there...scrapping and causing dissent.

Where the power comes from would be something very interesting to track back.. "Landed Gentry/Real Estate" who control to this very day what they always did? :shrug:

BTW...I left there at 22...but still have relatives...in some way to keep touch although I have little in common politics wise...being the "old progressive South"..not this abomination.
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Are_grits_groceries Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-11-09 04:41 AM
Response to Reply #57
59. I'm a boomer.
Hollings was the last best hope.

Here's a good reason for some of the change: SC and Howard Rich. He is funneling his money into the state through many shells and buying legislators with campaign contributions. He is trying to use it as his pet lab project for his political ideas.

Mt. Pleasant Election Forum, Rich on the Radar?
http://www.indigojournal.com/showDiary.do?diaryId=1116

Buying South Carolina
http://www.indigojournal.com/showDiary.do?diaryId=1116

Howard Rich's SC GOP
http://votingundertheinfluence.blogspot.com/2009/05/there-is-lot-of-talk-about-rinos-these.html

Google "Howard Rich" and "SC". You will find brazillions of articles.
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KoKo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-11-09 06:30 PM
Response to Reply #59
60. K&R!
Be sure to check your "PM" box...
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KoKo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-11-09 06:55 PM
Response to Original message
62. Damned "Carpet Baggers" back in SC! Milton Friedman/Grover Norquist...Active!
July 26, 2006
The Problem with Howard Rich

In recent posts I've pointed out how Howard Rich and Grover Norquist and a very small group of their friends have created a massive network of astroturf organizations through which millions of dollars are being moved to several states in support of TABOR, term limits, and eminent domain initiatives. The response from the right has been typical: what is wrong with people working together to fund political efforts? It is done all the time.

Yes, people do work together to fund political efforts all the time. And nothing is wrong with that. The question is, when a very small number of people use heavy-handed methods to push their own extreme agenda on local communities, preventing local activists from addressing legitimate local issues, and they do it through a smokescreen of fake groups intended to hide their identity and create the appearance that the effort is local, they have crossed the line. Let's take a closer look.

Heavy Handed Tactics

Howard Rich's heavy-handedness has been getting him into trouble since his Libertarian days back in 1982. He left the party, but not his ideology. And now some conservatives are complaining that Rich's heavy-handed tactics, particularly with regards to term limits, are hurting their efforts. Things really came to a head in 1997 and 1998. Bob Inglis, a South Carolina Republican who disagreed with US Term Limits only on the number of terms, was told, "If you get in our way, we'll mow you down." Don Hodel, president of the Christian Coalition and long-time supporter of term limits, told Rich the Christian Coalition would "openly reject" Rich's irresponsible, ineffective, and irrational approach to term limits.

In one case, a California Republican term limits supporter was actively opposed by US Term Limits and Americans for Limited Terms (both Howard Rich groups), who spent $250,000 in support of the Democrat in the race who was also a term limits opponent. The reason? Tom Bordonaro, who had promised to vote for any term limits bill that crossed his desk, refused to sign a pledge to self-limit his terms to no more than three two-year terms in the House and two six-year terms in the Senate. His aging Democrat opponent, who opposed term limits, could readily sign the pledge because she knew she wouldn't live long enough to break it. A similar attack on a conservative in Illinois also resulted in that candidate's loss.

According to one conservative in Washington, Rich and his group "treat those who disagree with them on tactical matters as apostates." Another says, "They're absolutely inflexible. No good deed goes unpunished." Arne Owens of the Christian Coalition said, "We no longer consider U.S. Term Limits a part of the conservative movement. Nor do most conservative organizations." In fact, it was a disgruntled conservative activist, expressing the same view as Owens, who first brought the Howard Rich story to my attention.

Since 1998, Rich seems to have realized that his tactics will not work with elected representatives, so he is taking his all-or-nothing approach directly to the voters instead.

Creating the Appearance of Grassroots

When you hear "Oregonians in Action" you automatically think "this is a group of Oregonians who have banded together to get something done." Fortunately, in Oregon, that is true, though even this solid group has been taking money from Rich and friends of late. Oregon is probably not the only state with a citizen group that pre-existed the Rich influence only to succumb to it in recent years. But in many other states where Rich-written and Rich-funded ballot initiatives are being put before the voters, the groups were created specifically for this effort and are anything but grassroots.

Several of Rich's groups have clever acronyms. In Arizona, Rich's group is Arizona HOPE (the Arizona Home Owners Protection Effort). In Nevada, Rich's eminent domain effort is called PISTOL (the People's Initiative to Stop the Taking of Our Land). And his Nevada TABOR group is called TASC (Tax and Spending Control for Nevada). In Nebraska, it's SOS Nebraska (Stop Over Spending Nebraska) and in Michigan it's SOS Michigan (Stop Over Spending Michigan).

Other groups have pulled their names from existing groups. In Idaho, it's Idahoans for Tax Reform. In Oklahoma, the group is called Oklahomans In Action. In Montana, it's Montanans in Action. He also has the Western Nebraska Taxpayers Association. In Missouri, it's Missourians in Charge (even though it's really Rich in charge).

Others just plain sound local. In California, Rich is working with Citizens to Save California. In Maine, it's the Main Freedom Committee. In South Carolina it's South Carolinians for Responsible Government. In Ohio it's Citizens for Tax Repeal. Florida has Hands Off Florida, Minnesota has Let Minnesota Vote!, and Nebraska has Nebraskans for Human Care Committee (a Terry Schiavo inspired initiative).

All of these initiatives are being put forward and funded by non-local Howard Rich. Signatures were all collected by non-local petitioners. The language of the measures was written by non-local Rich-paid individuals (such as Dave Hunnicut, who wrote a number of eminent domain/Measure 37 style initiatives for various states).

Is it any wonder that Rich has also created and funded an astroturf group called "Citizens in Charge" that is designed to get ALL states to adopt initiative and referendum laws? It is the one means available to this extremist, heavy-handed libertarian movement to force its agenda on the country. Elected Representatives work together to fine-tune legislation and ensure it works for the good of all their constituents. Voters, on the other hand, can only give a measure an up or down vote. If you support term limits, you must accept the precise version offered or have no term limits at all. If you want to end eminent domain abuse, you must also accept Measure 37 compensation or forfeit the eminent domain protections. If you want a rainy day fund or some limitations on state spending, you must also accept Rich's extremely strict limits which will eventually cut the budget in half.

It is far too easy for an unscrupulous man with deep pockets and an unpopular extremist agenda to push aside more moderate proposals by preventing those proposals from obtaining adequate funding to compete for a spot on the ballot (this actually occurs), to create astroturf groups that generate the false appearance that local people are responding to a local crisis, and to then convince voters to make an extreme choice that may not be in their best interests. That is what is wrong with the tactics being used by Howard Rich.

READ MORE at.........

http://www.preemptivekarma.com/archives/2006/07/the_problem_wit_1.html


Howie Friedman and "School Choice" goes back to Milton Friedman School of Econimics that brought us Reagan Revolution and "Libertarian Politics for ALL" that led to the Economic Implision of '1998 and and 2008!"

MORE about HOWARD RICH:

School-Choice Strategy
June 16, 2007

By Howard S. Rich
Wall Street Journal

The flattened borders of the 21st century have made networking faster, global trade freer and competition more rigorous -- meaning the premium we place on educating future generations is higher than ever before. Yet the nation's monopolistic approach to education remains a millstone around our children's necks, with America consistently lagging behind its industrialized peers in academic achievement.

The late Nobel Prize-winning economist Milton Friedman understood the central role school choice must play in revitalizing American education. "Empowering parents would generate a competitive education market, which would lead to a burst of innovation and improvement, as competition has done in so many other areas," he said in December 2005. "There's nothing that would do so much to ensure a skilled and educated work force."

By any objective measure, Friedman was right. The success of school choice as a method of empowering parents, raising student achievement and improving public education systems in those markets where it has been implemented is indisputable. The question now becomes how to achieve meaningful school choice for the benefit of all parents, not just a select few?

After this year's compelling school-choice victory in Utah, the methodology for successfully advancing parental options against the well-funded phalanxes of institutional opposition is crystallizing. Specifically, Utah's success has proven the efficacy of advocating universal choice initiatives as opposed to limited, means-tested pilot programs.

Beyond the obvious quantitative benefits universal plans provide (i.e., more choices for a larger number of parents), consider the following lessons from experience:
• Scaling back choice plans does nothing to diminish institutional opposition. Too often, supporters of school choice assume that watering down legislation in their states will result in acquiescence from teachers unions and the education-industrial complex. Nothing could be further from the truth. Whether it is choice for one child or one million children, the education establishment will fight it tooth and nail. If anything, the rhetorical salvos launched against scaled-back proposals are even more incendiary, with bureaucratic apologists falsely accusing school choice supporters of "sneak attacks" and "end-arounds" in addition to the predictable "anti-public education" harangues.


Moreover, the introduction of "softer" choice bills is often perceived as a political retreat, emboldening opponents and unnecessarily muddying the clear policy and philosophical merits school choice enjoys. Anti-choice forces do not make distinctions nor will they ever stop attacking that freedom once it has been achieved. Even after Utah's decisive school choice victory, supporters of the status quo are already seeking to derail the legislation by using the state's public referendum process -- all this despite the fact that Utah's public schools received more than half a billion dollars in new funding this year.
• Broader choice plans equal broader support. You don't have to take Grassroots 101 to know that successful coalitions are based on addition, not subtraction. Yet in many instances school choice supporters have been conditioned to believe that confining the parameters of parental choice will lead to a broader base of public support. The opposite is true. As employee stock options and personal savings accounts have shown, nothing motivates individuals quite like becoming personally invested in an issue.


Supporters of school choice cannot afford to leave a single ally on the sidelines -- for Christian school parents, home school parents, parents with special-needs children or parents who for whatever reason aren't satisfied with the public school they are zoned for, universal choice plans offer a much broader base of grassroots support than more narrowly-drawn proposals.
• Universal school choice plans can ultimately forge winnable political coalitions. Utah adopted the nation's first universal school choice bill this year in spite of a staggering amount of political capital devoted to defeating the legislation and demonizing those who rallied behind it. House Speaker Greg Curtis, who was targeted for defeat by teachers unions last year and came close to losing his seat, is emblematic of courage under fire. Instead of being awed by the onslaught, Mr. Curtis pushed choice aggressively, and was a central figure in the school choice victory.


Like citizens, elected officials are much more inclined to support legislation when they are given a direct stake in it. All politicians respond to pressure in their own backyards, yet absent such pressure, they will invariably bend to the inflexible will of the education establishment.

In spite of enormous resistance, Utah's victory is proof positive that a universal approach -- consistently advanced over time and leveraging every available grassroots and political coalition -- can succeed in securing the educational choices our nation needs to compete in the new millennium. The sooner we apply these lessons to other states, the sooner America can inherit its 21st century

Manifest Destiny.

Read More at.............
http://www.friedmanfoundation.org/newsroom/ShowNewsItem.do?id=80080
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