A brief word for DUers who dismiss concern over administration policy as instant gratification

[AllentownJake]

We aren't stupid. We are the activist. We generally know more on what is going on because we don't care about the People or US Weekly version of the Administration. He's the President not the contestant we like on American Idol.

On economic matters, Tim Geithner and Ben Bernake are two of the architects of the economic crisis. Any article or piece of investigative journalism that one reads about their actions from 2007 to 2009 shows incompetence or cronyism. Read Matt Taibbi's most recent article in Rolling Stone. These two guys had a big luncheon a week before Bear Stearns collapsed with all the Wall Street players and didn't invite Bear Stearns. Translation, these guys probably knew what was about to go down and gave their tacit approval. Not to mention the fact that these guys seem to view themselves more as partners with the too big to fail institutions than regulators. On the SEC regulatory front, few new regulations have been adopted or proposed (which the SEC has the ability to do under the acts of '33 and '34) to stop the trading activity that happened. Larry Summers is back, despite the fact that most of his ideas from the 1990s have blown up in our face 10 years later. Also the lack of indictments for the biggest fraud committed in world history is almost embarrassing. For those who say indictments take time, they sure got Bernie Madoff rather quickly. I guess we are looking forward on Wall Street as well.

On civil rights. It all started with Rick Warren, one of the biggest cheerleaders of taking rights away from California GLBT folks, being invited to the inauguration and it hasn't gotten much better since. When you can't stand up for one of your most loyal constituencies, one questions who you stand for.

On the war, many on here were not that happy about increasing troops in Afghanistan when he mentioned it during the campaign. Do you expect them to suddenly be happy about it now. We are talking about 40,000 to 60,000 men and women taken from their families most on their 3rd, 4th, or 5th tour not to mention the civilian toll. Some DUers favor real peace not just peace prizes.

Most of us think the President is doing well on somethings and not others. It isn't Instant Gratification when you see action in the opposite direction you were hoping things would go in.

[saracat]

1. Thank you.Absolutely spot on. I tried to rec but I see the unrec squad is at work!

+1 anyway.

[AllentownJake]

2. I expect to see quite a few of them

I challenge them to engage rather than to hit and run.

[Jakes Progress]

126. You just happen to be on their list.

They don't read your posts. They don't think about them. Is there some kind of notification that DU'ers can get to tell when someone in particular has posted? If so, these little shits just sit and wait for someone on their list to post. Then they pop in and unrec. It gives them a little thrill in their pants. Think junior high.

[joeycola]

21. Indeed they are

quick.

[AllentownJake]

27. they are not so quick to reply though

:shrug:

[billh58]

71. Actually, there

is not much to respond "quickly" about. You have pretty much covered it, and other posters have filled in the gaps about those issues you may have missed.

This appears to be a post designed to further the divide between the artificial labels of "Obama-bots" and "Obama-haters." This argument has deep roots in the bitterness of the Democratic Primary Election, and continues to smolder for far too many in the present. The fact is, that no politician could, or will, ever be all things to all people.

Those whose expectations demand "instant gratification" of personal single-issue causes are certainly no better, or worse, than those whose expectations are easily met by broader "low hanging fruit" accomplishments. Criticism of a sitting Democratic president by Democrats is nothing new, but we haven't had the opportunity for the past eight years. Viciously going for other Democrat's throats is a relatively new phenomenon, however, and appears to be gaining ground. It has been apparent with the right-leaning Second Amendment crowd for some time now, but the practice seems to be spilling over into the "general population."

Until we Democrats can undo the artificial divisions caused by self-inflicted vitriol, we will continue to mimic (and delight) our enemies. If there was ever a time, and an urgent need, for Democrats to agree to disagree, that time is now. President Obama deserves (and has asked for) constructive criticism, but also desperately needs our support in lobbying the Congress, and in countering the hate and the lies of the neoconservative-financed Town Hallers, Birthers, and Baggers. There are two distinct sides to being an "activist," and focusing on only the criticism side is counterproductive.

Maybe we need uniforms so that we can tell the good guys, from the bad guys...

[QC]

73. "'instant gratification' of personal single-issue causes"

Which basic civil rights are you being denied?

[billh58]

84. I believe

that you have misunderstood my use of that term of reference as stated by the OP. I have been a part of the Civil Rights Movement since the '60s, and the fight is far from over. My point was about "expectations" and not substance. There remain entire classes of people in the USA whose full access to all civil rights are being denied. They have a perfect right, and obligation, to expect redress.

Calling another Democrat an "Obama-bot" or an "Obama-hater" will not change that -- will it? The real enemy is neither fellow Democrats, nor President Obama, but those who actually have the power to make and change laws. Continue to hold President Obama's feet to the fire (as he has requested) but also direct your anger toward the source of the problem: the Congress of the United States of America.

[AllentownJake]

85. The OP is in response to this

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=6755750&mesg_id=6757203

[billh58]

91. Sorry, but the

author of that post is evidently on my "Do Not Disturb" list, so I can't read it.

I understand where you, and the many others who have responded here, are coming from, and I am in total agreement with you on almost all issues. Ever since I recently began to actively post on DU, however, I noticed the hateful and unbending tone of a few prolific posters. I attempted to reason with a few of them, but soon learned that that was an exercise in futility, and finally decided to use the "ignore" feature as my own personal way of moderating my blood pressure and sanity.

All I am attempting to point out, is that cooler heads need to prevail if we are to use any semblance of "unity" in order to present a stronger voice. Calling each other childish names (Obama-bot, Obama-hater, Gun-nut, Grabber, etc.) sounds more like Bushisms (evil-doers) than reasoned debate aimed at winning hearts and minds, and reaching a consensus.

Just sayin...;-)

[AllentownJake]

94. There was a truce of sorts for a while

People debating policy were hiding out in GD people talking about how great the President is no matter what were hiding in GDP. Sometime in the last month, the truce got broken and we are spilling into each others forums.

[billh58]

96. I liked the

old days better, when most of the arrows came from the front.

Peace...;-)

[QC]

97. Yes, I've been noticing "Let's giggle at thease dreeeeeeeeeeamy pictures!" threads

in this forum.

I said to myself then that GD: P must have sprung a leak.

[AllentownJake]

98. They got bored talking to themselves

and decided that the problem we have is that we just haven't seen how awesome he looks walking to church yet.

As such they have been absolutely aghast at what we are saying in there.

[QC]

102. Yes, I suspect their has been much sucking of teeth and clucking of tongues. n.t

[billh58]

107. Wow!

"They" must be real right-wing assholes huh? "We" certainly don't want to associate with the likes of "them."

Good thing "we" have "our" own GD forum ain't it? "They" should just stay in "their" own GDP forum. Fuck "them." Let's all go piss on some more cyber trees, and expand our territory...

[AllentownJake]

111. Sometimes the best course of action

for two different kinds of people is for them to be pleasant to each other, and stay with their own circle of friends.

[billh58]

115. Or, we could

focus more attention and energy on the things we have in common, than on our differences. Nah, that would never work because "they" would still be assholes.

[AllentownJake]

117. We don't need to be friends for another 10 months

Than they will come to us, kissing our ass and promising not to be corporate whores and sell out the agenda when their in office again, rinse, cycle, repeat. Than we will look at our alternative suck it up and go back to fighting them behind the scenes for another 2 years.

[billh58]

121. Like Bones on TV,

I don't know what that means. I guess I missed the part where the Democratic Party became "us and them." Unless, of course, you are referring to whose candidate didn't make the cut during the Democratic Primary Election process, and the Democrat who finally was elected.

Look, I don't like DLC corporate whores anymore than you do. I don't like the fact that we have a Congress who can't read the fucking Constitution, and perform their by-the-numbers duties as spelled out in that document. The only thing that I DO like, at the moment, is that I'm not as worried about the future of my country as I have been for the past 8-9 years.

Like I said in another post, I am 68 years old, retired, and could easily just say "fuck it," and let someone else worry about the future. Unfortunately, I can still "get it up" politically, philosophically, and ideologically, so I suppose that I'm doomed to be a Liberal activist until I take a dirt nap.

I just hate it when other Democrats refuse to play nicely, and to promote American Liberalism as a cause, rather than as a vehicle for the hatred we oppose when it comes from our right-wing enemies.

Peace...

[Zodiak]

130. I guess I have been making a mistake

I come here to discuss politics, and as such, GD:P is my haunt. But ideologically, I suppose I should have been in GD.

[elocs]

112. Gee, what have I been missing at DU. There are truces and forum spilling?

Was this formal or just the all-knowing cliques?

[billh58]

114. Haven't you

heard? We're choosing up sides now, and "they" are our enemies.

[elocs]

118. Didn't Pogo say:

[AllentownJake]

116. It was just sort of an evolution

People who do not question the administration on any issue hang out in GDP, people who discuss and debate issues hang out in GD.

Not saying there isn't debate in GD or it is a I hate Obama hangout, GD is just where people seem to hang out to discuss what is going and debate about it. GDP seems to be where you go to look at pictures of the President and his dog.

[elocs]

120. I guess I haven't been paying good enough attention.

So these are not just random posts here at DU, there is some kind of unofficial organization? Might a DU coup not be far off?

[cliffordu]

178. Yep.

[Grinchie]

101. Hah hah hah.. I see the "Bitterness" label is being resurrected.

Omg! How can you possibly question the resoning for the Nobel Peace Prize award! You must be so Bitter to even think that! Signed Cha on another thread.

The people that hurl the "Bitterness" tag don't like to bring facts, logic or scientific method into the descussion, because they know that they will fail. In this resepect, they are nothing more than re branded Town Hollerers.

Your claim that No Politician could Ever be all thing to all people. I call Bullshit, because you actually assume that we have honest politicians that care for the people, instead of Politicians that are owned and operated by the Corporations, whose business plan is so opaque and so incomprehensible that the Corporations dare not tell the citizens the truth, otherwise they would see their own heads on the pikes by and enraged public.

You are nothing more that a propagandist, happy to promoted a half assed, watered down, low quality form of representation, much like you probaly happily consume non-nutritious, sugar laden GMO food, snap up shoddy plastic doo dads from WalMart, and sit idly by while our children pass single file through the metal detectors at the local school, only to be left unattended to fend for themselves while the educators hide in the teachers lounge.

Sorry buddy, but there is a great divide when it comes to caring for each other, and settling for a great deal less like you appear to be willing to do. I'm old enough to know what quality, value, ethics and honesty stand for. America has lost a great deal in the past 40 years, and the trouble is that people like you seem to think it's ok to continually lower our standards. I believe this is nothing more than a willing trek to the further decay and disease of the country.

I do thank you for your post, because it demonstrated that the "Bitterness" tag has been lifted from the Republican chatter box and is now being used by so called Democrats against other Democrats in the hopes that the tag will quiet them down. The DLC Centrists are nothing more than Fascists from both parties.

Obama deserves nothing. He has the power and status of the POTUS, able to gather resources as he so desires at his command. Yet, for some reason, he is unable to listen to the majority of people, and then get apologists like yourself to plead for our forgiveness, and hand over information that should be totally obvious to his administration, while all the while identifying the individual explicitly. Heh heh, good luck with that.

:rofl:

[SammyWinstonJack]

108. +1

:applause:

[saracat]

123. +2 Though I wouldn't go so far as to say Obama deserves "nothing'

but we certainly are entitled to be disappointed and speak out if he falls below expectations of true liberality. and the "bitterness" tag is really dated and over used. it isn't bitterness when one is angry about current actions.

[billh58]

113. Wow again!

I'm not real sure, but I think that you just proved at least a couple of my points. I am 68 years old, and have been a Democratic activist since I was old enough to vote. Debate over issues is a good thing, and political criticism is a part of being American. I have no idea where you get the impression that I am willing to settle for less, since I have been a part of the Civil Rights Movement for many years. I am a bleeding-heart Liberal with an intense dislike for the DLC, and the "centrist" mindset.

My post, and my mission in life at this point, is to attempt to reclaim the Democratic Party for the Democratic Wing of the our Party, and put an end to this "Progressive" bullshit bickering and vitriol like you just exhibited. The neoconservatives have been in control of either the WH, the Congress, or both, for the better part of three decades. That sort of embedded damage can't be undone in one short election cycle, and those who expected it could are deluding themselves.

If you believe that "Obama deserves nothing," then we are truly fucked for at least three more years, and we can all just fucking yell and scream at each other. Is that what you want bubba, or do you just want to show your rusty old ass in public and rant and rave at those who are on your side? I am not an apologist for anyone, but I am a realist, and I DO know that fighting among ourselves like school children will solve absolutely nothing. Nada, zilch, zip.

Denying that there is no residual ill-will left over from the rancor of the Primary campaigns is both disingenuous, and an attempt to justify the hatred. My preferred candidate didn't win either, but I managed to get over it. Some obviously haven't.

Go take a chill pill and come back when you have something productive and positive to say.

[Grinchie]

146. You are so full of conflict, it's hard to respond.

If you didn't vote for Obama, then how are you affected, other than by being gleeful that he's acting more like Hillary than Obama?

It's not like he actually hired any progressives for White House jobs, has he?

I not fighting against you, you are right, it is absolutely pointless and a waste of energy. I'd much rather withdraw any support from this failed Administration and hire someone qualified to do the job. No apologies required. Go ahead and flap your gums against Baucus, Michael Taylor, Vilsack, and the neocons that still insist that a war in Iran is a good thing.

Good luck with that.

I'll say it again, Obama deserves no support from me, or from any other conscious person that has been thrown under the bus in favor of the same old Corporate giveaways that the DLC is famous for.

It's not that I like seeing him go against everything he campaigned on, but the inexorable continuation of Bush policies is unacceptable, which only proves that he is nothing more than another sock puppet like Bush.

Then, the apologists spewing Cute Puppies, and give him a chance is ridiculous. In case you haven't noticed, the world is in serious trouble. Our food supply is contaminated and dependent on insane amounts of Oil to produce, and you want everyone to just ignore that fact that the earths ecosytem is on the verge of collapse so we can all stand behind Obama? Is that what you are trying to say?

You will never be able to quash informed dissent and the raising of disturbing facts from this poster, simply because they need to be raised, especially for people like you with compartmentalized brains that are not able to connect disparate facts because it hurts your particular view of reality.

Who the hell do you think you are anyway? A 68 year old wise man that demands we all settle for less?

It's pretty clear that you can't get a grip on where I stand, but simply are trying to label me as some sort of "Progressive" or "Neocon", who is somehow "Bickering" because Obama is acting like Bush Lite, or Clinton part 2. Unfortunately, your claims are unfounded and weak, and only reduce the effectiveness of your arguments.

I'm a realist too, and I know that if you never ask for the best, nobody will ever voluntarily give it to you. But when they ignore your request and give you Dog Food when you order Steak, I have every right to be vocal in my displeasure.

[billh58]

149. You may find this

hard to fathom, but I agree with everything that you have stated (except the parts where you projected uncalled for and silly shit on me). My only objective in posting on this thread was to try to reduce the infighting in the Democratic Party, and re-direct that energy to a collective fight against the neoconservative forces that have brought us to this point in our history.

I concede that ALL politicians are liars, and I expected nothing less from President Obama, which is why I do not waste a lot of time either defending him, or criticizing him. None of us can actually do anything about him for a little over three years, and that may not be right, but it's true. AAMOF, I have always maintained that I don't particularly give a shit who sits in the Oval Office, as long as we have a Democratic majority in the Congress, and the assholes do their job and actually represent the American people. Most of my activist efforts are directed at the Congress, and not the POTUS, as that position is too insulated. In fact, it may have been better if McCain/Palin had won, and the Democratic Congress was forced to get off of their collective fat asses and, just maybe, push through some meaningful Liberal legislation.

I did not say that I didn't vote for President Obama. I said that my preferred candidate did not win the nomination. I will never "settle for less," and I have made no attempt to label you as anything. If you will recall, you attacked me for offering an opinion -- not a direct criticism of anyone's particular position -- but an opinion about the silly-assed name calling and pointless accusations of "us" vs. "them." I am a Liberal Democrat -- nothing more, nothing less. I say the very same things to the other side of this ridiculous fucking adolescent squabble. And yes, a few on both sides of this circular argument are continuing the PUMA-like bullshit that originated in the Primaries.

Excuse the Hell out of me for not instantly getting a "grip on where you stand," but it is just a little difficult to hold a civil conversation with an angry old fart, or get to know them, when they come out swinging and throwing sucker punches. Your assumptions of me having a "compartmentalized brain" or of my "particular view of reality," are spectacular in their bullshit arrogance. You know abso-fucking-lutely nothing about me, except that I somehow inadvertently bruised your gigantic fucking ego bubba.

You definitely have every right to be vocal in your displeasure. I also have the right to be vocal in my call for civility among fellow Democrats on an Internet site dedicated to a common Democratic cause. I don't want a Third Party, I want the Democratic Party back for Democrats.

Jesus Christ! Now you've got me doing it. Where the hell are my meds?

Peace, and live long and prosper angry old dude...;-)

[Grinchie]

183. Perhaps you need to review your meds...

They do not appear to be helping you out much.

And I a complimented by you calling me old.

Unfortunately, we already have a thrid party, and it is the DLC/Corporatists. They thrive of dissonance, and are quick to be for people to cut them some slack for licking the boots of the Corporate bigwigs.

Sorry Bill.. Those days are over. I cut slack for no man, especially when they are working to continue a failed system while at the same time telling people to be quiet if they don't agree.

Unfortunately, people are so wound up and weakened by the economic collapse, they are afraid of what will happen when the unsustainable lifelines to the urban centers is disrupted, or that thier money is tied up for months when the Economy finally collapses under the wait of the ever growing debt without production or industry.

You may be retired and do not see the mayhem occurring in the urban areas, but I make a point to examine it daily, and it looks fricking grim. I don't hold it against you that you are unaware of the basic fundamentals, but your tone of "Can't We All Get Along" is a little to weak and without substance to stomach.

I wish you the best of luck, but don't expect people to "Shut Up" because they see the same old shit in a new shiny wrapper being fed to the masses, and point it out.

[bobbolink]

144. Question for you....Do you like it when people tell you what your motivation is?

How do you respond when people, who don't even KNOW YOU, assume they know what's in your head?

Here's the deal.... I'm willing to bet that at least MOST if not ALL Dems who worked for another candidate would be happy beyond belief to see Obama live up to his promises, not to mention turn around some of the bit issues.

I know that I would be ecstatic.

Because, you see, I care about the country FIRST.

Maybe you could consider that BEFORE you dismiss people who you don't even know. Wouldn't that be progressive? Wouldn't that be what Obama, himself, would do?

[billh58]

150. If that is the

way that I came off to you, then I sincerely apologize as that was not my intention. To me, the obvious and patriotic right to criticize President Obama is not the important issue here, but the hateful criticism of each other over whether or not that right exists. You are correct in that I don't know what is in anyone's head -- I can only judge by what I see and read. The raw anger and vitriol that I see day-after-day on some topics on DU is distressing. I have seen many posts by long-term DU members stating that they no longer enjoy coming to DU because of the open hostility, pointless name-calling, and circular arguments.

I guess that I have options to attempting to make peace between warring factions, such as more extensive use of the ignore feature. I was hoping, however, that it was possible to appeal to the better Liberal nature of fellow Democrats who, I believe, would never act this hostile in a face-to-face encounter with another Democrat (or even a Republican for that matter).

[bobbolink]

151. The OP was about those of us who dare to be critical of the administration.

that is wholly different from name-calling, vitriol, etc.

In fact, many times we can be very calmly discussing what it is we are displeased about with the administration, and RECEIVE such name-calling and vitriol.

We had the mistaken idea that both Democracy and Democratic Underground were for the opportunity to speak our minds.

[billh58]

153. I wasn't just

"preaching" to one side in this never-ending argument, but to the aggressors on BOTH sides of the donnybrook. Why is that so hard to understand?

[bobbolink]

154. Now you are the one with the vitriol. I thought that's what you were decrying?

I responded to you thoughtfully, explaining why some of us find this very difficult, and you blatantly insinuate that I'm incapable of understanding.

Go stand in front of a mirror.

[billh58]

155. Mea culpa,

mea culpa, mea maxima culpa. I guess that I'm just getting frustrated and have lost the ability to communicate rationally.

What I meant to ask, is why am I having so much trouble getting my intent and meaning across to people that I view as kindred spirits? I'm starting to have a Rodney King moment here, so I guess that I'd better go read some James Patterson and let what's left of my mind wander in fantasyland. Too much reality is bad for the soul.

Peace...

[Name removed]

132. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[toadzilla]

133. why does the first or second post on every interesting thread have to be about the unrec feature?

lets get over it already..

[billh58]

137. Because it's one

more thing to be against rather than being for something. Negative energy is so much more satisfying, and doesn't take all that much thought to achieve its hollow purpose of one-upsmanship.

[bobbolink]

169. Of course. It couldn't possibly be that some of us see a lot of NEGATIVE results

of it, could it?

I find it very interesting that you are so quick to bemoan the negativity on this forum, yet so quick to ascribe NEGATIVE motivations to people you don't even know.

[billh58]

173. And you have just

done the same, haven't you? I was replying to a post which pointed out the general angst about the unrec feature throughout DU, but you just had to take it personally. Again, mea culpa. Look, I have no quarrel with anyone on this "private" thread, and I will quietly butt out.

[inna]

147. just ignore those posts. read past them.

"get over it already" :P

[Greyhound]

3. K&R.

[Hannah Bell]

4. what do you expect when people get their history from tv shows.

k/r

[AllentownJake]

7. Well Mad Men is a documenry these days

Dontchano

[HamdenRice]

12. Better to get it from tv than from corporate shills running a cult disguised as "socialists"

Both are equally bad, but I'd say getting your "news" from a cult run by some rich corporate execs posing as Trotskyite uber-radicals is much worse than getting it from tv. Tv only lies some of the time.

[Fumesucker]

15. Could you translate that to something a little more closely resembling English?

I consider myself a bit better informed than the average American about politics and I just went "huh?"..

[HamdenRice]

17. The person I was responding to relentlessly cross posts from WSWS

But it turns out World Socialist Web Site is a fraudulent cult owned by some corporate pr firm. Check this post and the posts that follow in this subthread:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=6560399&mesg_id=6561071

[Romulox]

45. Which grants YOU license to mutter "socialist" and "cultist" at everyone with whom you disagree.

The cycle is complete!

[HamdenRice]

50. uh, reading comprehension is your friend

Do a search. I've never accused anyone of being a socialist.

I've called people Trotskyites and cultists -- people who constantly spam DU with "articles" from a web site/party that is self-described as Trotskyite, and whose former members call it a cult.

[Romulox]

52. You've called me all of those things (including "socialist" as a perjorative)

and I've never posted a single article from the web site that you're obsessed with. (Remember your bizarre and made up quotation that "anyone with more than $1000 in the bank is a class traitor"?)

Which is my point. Your obsessions originate in your head. Which is why I'm worried. About you. Series.

[HamdenRice]

54. Link?

to a post calling you a socialist?

Talk about things originating in one's head!

:rofl:

[Romulox]

56. You didn't even have the decency to apologize for your made up "class traitor" quotes

I'm not going to search for your paranoiac ramblings past when you don't have the basic decency (not to say integrity) to not fabricate slanderous material wholesale.

At any rate, doing so would be entirely redundant; your mental infirmity is self-evident in real time. :hi:

[pecwae]

5. Knr

:thumbsup:

[MadHound]

6. Excellent post

I wonder how long some of Obama's defenders are going to keep using the instant gratification excuse? Probably until a better one comes along.

The Democratic party is sadly turning out to be all about excuses, not about actually doing what needs to be done.

[bvar22]

172. It was the same excuses ...

...when the Democratic Party to The Majority in 2006 and Nancy took impeachment Off the Table.

THEN is was "give em time...give em time...give em time...can't do everything at once....."

AFTER a year, it was,"Can't do anything NOW..Its campaign season."



"There are forces within the Democratic Party who want us to sound like kinder, gentler Republicans. I want us to compete for that great mass of voters that want a party that will stand up for working Americans, family farmers, and people who haven't felt the benefits of the economic upturn."---Paul Wellstone

[truedelphi]

187. Sometimes I still cannot believe that Paul is gone.

It will be six years later this month, right?

[ixion]

8. I agree

Kicked and recommended. :applause:

Policies that were not okay when Bush was in office are still NOT okay.

[OmmmSweetOmmm]

9. Excellent post but please don't forget other actions

continued surveillance, supporting the extending of the Patriot Act, defending DOMA in the courts, allowing Repukes to go free while Sieglman hasn't been exonerated yet. Throw in Gitmo still open and reports of rendition still going on.

[AllentownJake]

10. Thanks for adding

My prime area of activism is on Wall Street since I spent 5 years in financial services, so it got the majority of my comments.

[OmmmSweetOmmm]

11. I understand. I also forgot

not actively prosecuting the war criminals from the last administration.

[Echo In Light]

42. CRUCIAL points, OM! The 'real' war on transparent democracy marches onward

[sendero]

13. Obama talks a good game...

.. but when it comes to actions it seems he has another quality in common with Bush - the tendency to say one thing and then go do exactly the opposite.

I'm tired of the spin method of governance.

[SammyWinstonJack]

37. Isn't that the truth. nt.

[truedelphi]

186. + 1. n/t

[Dawgs]

14. Interesting that you don't mention health care anywhere in your OP.

I know you think others could be, but Obama is not King. He can't make any change without support from Congress.

Yes, he's not perfect, but to pretend that he can fix everything all by himself is unfair.

You should read Michael Moore's second "letter" to see what I'm trying to say.

[AllentownJake]

18. Bernake, Summers, and Geithner are all appointments

made by the President.

The lack of policy or movements for gay rights, is executive power not legislative.

Last I checked his title was commander in chief.


Epic fail on responding to my points.

[Dawgs]

38. I did respond to your entire OP.

It was idiotic and stupid.

[AllentownJake]

40. I made critism of decisions he's made

Not things congress has done, you tried to push it back onto congress.

Last time I checked, Ben Bernake isn't appointed by the Senate nor is Geithner and Larry Summers, that guy didn't need to have any approval what so ever :-)

As for the war, last time I checked he's commander in chief, so DUers who are mad about a troop escalation can't get that mad at congress can they?

As for Healthcare, he mismanaged that debate to an extent I could have never predicted. If we are lucky we'll get a mediocre public option, again, that was the administrations management, not the congress critters.

[HughMoran]

145. Agreed

This is a childish thread that cherry-picks a few points to make completely disingenuous arguments about them. I took this idiot off ignore just to unrec this.

[QC]

16. Oh please. You got to see pictures of him at the beach.

Isn't that enough for you people?

[OmmmSweetOmmm]

23. Don't forget

Bo's birthday!
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=389&topic_id=6736323

[QC]

29. Forget it??? I celebrated it right here at home! n/t

[OmmmSweetOmmm]

30. Me too

but my kitties got snippy with me. ;)

[QC]

33. They're jealous. n/t

[OmmmSweetOmmm]

191. My kitties aren't as much so jealous as they are confused.

They've told me that Bo's a cutie and his barks are most eloquent, but they've seen him leash trained and know that he is no where as independent as they are. They also told me quite clearly, that they want their birthdays and found day publicly heralded too because each and every sentient being is important.

BTW...Jack, who is in my sig line will be with us for 2 years on 10/17....I bet if I started a thread with photos of Jack it would land in the lounge and not stay in GD. ;)

[Bluenorthwest]

19. Excellent post

I'd say Rick Warren was not the start but just another chapter. The actual start was when candidate Obama personally selected 'ex gay' bigot Donnie McClurkin to host events for him. McClurkin was famous for declaring 'war on gays' saying that the gloves were off, because 'they are trying to kill our children.' When gay people complained about that hate preacher, Obama said that lots of people agree with Donnie and that they are 'good, decent and moral people' and told us that he would never stop listening to them. He continued to use Donnnie, as well as several other preachers who speak bigoted hate against gay people as a marketing device for their products.
Warren was just another round of the same.
Today I will call them right wing religionists. For they are not what they claim to be. I will not use the word they use for themselves out of respect for you and those who deserve the name.
Peace.

[Neecy]

41. And this is my biggest regret

I was an Obama supporter from the beginning - volunteered, phone banked, donated, the whole nine yards. When the McClurkin thing happened I dismissed it as an aberration, despite the appalling and harmful "ex-gay" ministry he ran. Surely, I thought, McClurkin didn't represent Obama's views. I argued with quite a few Hillary supporters about this, here and in RL.

I should have known better. As soon as the Warren thing happened I kicked myself. This wasn't an aberration, this was a problem. And everything that's happened since reinforces that.

The fanboys here call us "haters" and have spent a lot of their energies attacking the gay community. But they don't realize that a lot of us were there in the beginning, and the fault here isn't with us - it's with Obama. They'll never concede this. Personally, I'm deeply sorry that I committed so much time, energy and money in 2008 for him. I'm truly shocked at how this has turned out.

[AllentownJake]

43. I started to volunteer in February of 08 for the PA primary

I'm an economic reform as my primary issue, healthcare as my second, civil rights is my third.

I felt the same way when Larry Summers and Tim Geithner were appointed. I felt even a bigger kick in the stomach when the Warren issue came up.

The re-appointment of Bernake felt like he was spitting in the middle classes face.

[Neecy]

46. But you're obviously a "hater"

WE are the people who helped put him in office. People here conveniently forget that when they savage anyone who takes issue with some of the terrible appointments and policies.

I worked for him in two states. I busted my ass in Missouri prior to their primary, and I organized in Kansas for our caucus. I even hooked my 73 year old mother into it, and I'll never forget caucus night - it was cold, sleeting, utterly miserable. My mother stood in line, outdoors, for over an hour to get into her caucus. She did this for me more than for Obama. But I'm dismissed as a hater because he's done nothing other than offer rhetoric for my community. Like you, I find his appointments appalling. But it's our fault that we're not overlooking our core values and ooohing and ahhhing in the photo threads. Amazing.

If they had any smarts at all, they should be concerned that they're losing people like us. Browbeating won't bring us back into the fold.

[AllentownJake]

47. That is the oddest thing

When you bring it up with them, instead of taking your concern as a warning, they get even more brazen.

Will I vote for him in 2012, probably. Will I volunteer for him. Probably not. Will I volunteer for the democratic party right now, nope. I don't appreciate their tone.

[Grinchie]

110. It's the Browbeating that is most telling..

I saw this type of behavior from the Hillary camp in the Primaries, and it's a very creepy attempt to use subconscious neurosis to control people. It's pedagoguery at it's most blatant, and the technique is to trigger some repressed memory from childhood in order to get someone to do something. It's a little too complicated to explain here, but it's discussed in Alice Miller's book, "For Your Own Good", which details the centuries of so called normal Authoritarian Child rearing with the goal of Breaking the Will of the child, and gaining a "Productive" member of Society.. (unquestioning slaves). It worked very well for Hitler, and most people don't realize that this method of raising children is alive and well in America.

Now that Hillary and the DLC have taken over the Obama Administration, we see the same techniques being used against the Liberal Left. We also see the term "Bitterness" being thrown about recently. In fact, I had not seen it used until Friday of last week, now I see it everywhere. It seems that the DLC is running fricken scared these days, and they are pulling out all the stops in order to stop the bleeding.

The primary path toward healing and taking control of ones destiny is taking responsibility for ourselves, and stop being the victim that we were molded into by our parental upbringing and Social Norms.

Good for you Neecy. Follow your intuition and defend yourself against these abuses like most of us in this thread have done. We are much stronger than the Apologist propagandists trying to use labels to get us to conform. When those techniques are used, it's proof that the Administration is having sleepless night, waiting for the Computer to spit out the next Charm Offensive to distract the majority of people.

[natrat]

136. feels like some top down organizing which makes me think it's just paid whores

you can't take them seriously, probably just some pr firm. Really foul though to anyone who cares about things in this country

[Grinchie]

148. You are not far from the truth..

Now just imagine that it's not some PR firm, but an organization of our own Government, privy to the data collected by the billions of transactions on the Internet collected daily by the Intelligence services that we pay for, all legal and tidy thanks to the Patriot Act.

The citizens really don't have a clue how easy it is to collect everything into a huge pile, and that the Government spends Trillions of dollars to develop techniques to sort through the mess.

We are all being victimized by Propaganda everyday. They have outlets in the Mainstream Media, and Democratic Underground, and a thousand other places as well. It is not until we start noticing the patterns -- Talking Points Repeated Ad Nauseum, that we really start to realize how fully integrated the misinformation crew is in our daily lives.

The truly sad thing about this is that we have a corrupt, DLC oriented Administration that is now in control of these data collection and distribution mechanisms, and it's clear that there is no way in hell that they are going to give up the power that Bush and 9/11 gave them.

It's just that these Analysts and Policy makers are clueless about how to effective use this information, and they are running out of time. They don't have the luxury of a growing economy, or the ability to print trillions of more dollars, despite how hard they are trying. The 800 pound, Genetically Modified Chickens are coming home to roost, and they are scared to death on how to deal with them.

Instead of coming clean with the American People, they tend to lean on the Shepherd and the Flock metaphor, and are trying to reinflate the bubble and make everything happy again.

Unfortunately, it's too late for that, and the majority of American's are fed up and moving 180 degrees away from where the Administration is telling them to go, simply because the Fraud is to big to ignore, and the only way they will listen is when people no longer willingly go along with the game they make up as they go along.

[Old Time Pagan]

122. Boy have I caught it at home

my sweetie is a big believer in local action and not getting involved in the national theater. After the hellish 8 years I was able to convince her that Obama was worth supporting and we phone banked, door bell rang, donated, etc (and this is a pretty red area so we have some less than pleasant stories to tell about life in the trenches during the campaign.)

Well it wasn't long after the inauguration that I started to catch it. Articles about the appointments of Geithner, Bernake, and Summers (oh my?) were emailed to me from my dear wife of 28 years. Then the DOMA defense, the fact that DADT was not immediately Exectutively Ordered no longer to be enforced, the continuation of the Iraq & Afghan occupation, the lameass support of single-payer health care, well my credibility is in the shitter as far as my sweetie is concerned.

I'm too freakin' old to be anybody's fan. We are at the edge of a deep, dark abyss and anybody who posts here should be profoundly aware of that fact. In my opinion the most important thing Obama has to do right now is back us away from coming disaster(s). Then we need to get the mechanisms in place to give us the best chance of a soft landing because we are going to take a fall, there is no doubt about that. The only question is whether we can survive what's coming. Given the direction Obama seems to be taking us I don't see a good outcome for the middle or lower class. Too much of the world will take a great deal of pleasure watching us take it in the shorts after the way our corporate interests have treated them for the past 60 years.

I'm going to make myself real unpopular and float this thought out for your consideration. Perhaps the very thing that made it possible for Obama to run and get elected is turning out to be his biggest liability: EGO. In order for a mixed race person with limited experience to pursue and successfully win the race to become POTUS he has to have a huge one. It got him in but perhaps it also allows him to believe the fantasy that he can reach across the aisle and successfully engage the rabid dogs on the right in "bipartisanship." He may also be getting a bit light headed hanging out with the most powerful people in the planet and forgetting his roots and those who put him in office.

I don't regret helping to get him elected. We really didn't have much choice. Hilary came with a whole set of matching luggage and a corporatist for a spouse and then there's Caribou Barbie and the walking unDead. So no, given what we had to chose from Obama was the best we could have ended up with.

But be his fan club given many of his choices during the first 8 months, not a blooming, freakin' chance. If that makes me a "hater" in some DUer's eyes than so be it. I'd rather keep my eyes and my mind open then become the leftie version of the FAUX News club membership.

[Jakes Progress]

129. Your example is what will doom his chances in '12

I worked the local D headquarters too. Lots of very committed and very hardworking believers. We won against two of the worst candidates for president that could have been imagined. I think republicans are dumb but not dumb enough to do that again. Against a moderate candidate and without the hordes of believers doing countless hours of work, we won't like the outcome of the next presidential election.

I've had about a dozen of the world's best local workers and believers who worked with my last fall say they can't see themselves doing this again. Of course, in a couple of years, as the election season comes on, the administration will pass a few crumbs and make a lot more promises. But after having his aides say things like we liberals should shut up and get out of our pajamas, it will be a hard sell.

Maybe Obama only planned on being a one termer. I could even see the republicans wanting a one term Democrat to take the heat for the mess they spent 8 years making.

One thing for sure. His winning was different. But so far the administering part isn't the different that many of us hoped for. Well. If they don't need me, they don't need me. I can find lots of things to do other than knock on doors and make promises to people that I will have to eat.

[Betty Karlson]

188. That is very kind of you

"I will not use the word they use for themselves out of respect for you and those who deserve the name."

It presents an opportunity to discuss teachings rather than denominations.

[Starry Messenger]

20. There are a few posters here who seem to think

that their bluster and shallow wordcraft makes them The Smartest Guys in The Room. That kind of hubris rarely ends well. Thank you Jake. No one is asking for instant gratification.

[AllentownJake]

24. The 3 dimensional chess meme is starting to wear thin

[Starry Messenger]

31. I thought we were on to the cruise ship meme now.

Something about turning the great barges of the state or something. I wonder what it will be next?

[AllentownJake]

36. Your racist

I saw that one in a couple of threads being put out there in regards to why some people on here like Dennis K, and are critical of the President.

[Starry Messenger]

64. Oh right. I forgot.

I notice below a new one with a car. I hope we get to pick out what kind of car.

[AllentownJake]

66. That is the first time I saw that one

I look forward to hearing it over and over again for the next 2 months till the next analogy plays out.

[ChiciB1]

78. I, Too Am Tiring Of the Over-Use Of The Chess Game Factor!! n/t

[joeycola]

22. Thanks.

[asdjrocky]

25. No one will shut down my voice.

I like our President, but I'm about 50/50 or less on his policies.

I have every right to speak out and debate.

[AllentownJake]

26. You certainly do

and don't let anyone tell you otherwise.

[asdjrocky]

28. Trust me I never have and never will. nt

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

32. It is the responsibility of the citizenry to hold public servants to account. K&R

Or, they are no longer Public Servants but bosses.

[Winterblues]

34. Maybe you could name one of Larry Summers "big ideas" which have blown up in our face

I would be quite interested...

[AllentownJake]

35. repeal of glass-steagall act

that would be the biggest. Would we have too big to fail without that wonderful piece of de-regulation.

[Winterblues]

59. I was under the impression that originated with Phil Graham.

:shrug:I understand Clinton signed the repeal but I do not believe it originated with Larry Summers. Wasn't Leach involved as well?

[AllentownJake]

60. Larry Summers was in favor of it

88 US Senators voted for the repeal. They would not have done such if there wasn't cover from the Clinton Administration.

[struggle4progress]

39. Gene Robinson's Prayer Kicks off Inaugural Events

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kWWAnitUCw4

[Individualist]

44. "The announcement comes after weeks of outcry from the gay community

over Obama's choice of evangelical, anti-gay pastor Rick Warren to deliver the inaugural invocation.


Read more at: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2009/01/12/gene-robinson-gay-bishop_n_157076.html

[struggle4progress]

62. Nicely played by Obama, I should think, since Warren's words were unusually conciliatory

and well-behaved, if judged by his usual standards, while Robinson was explicitly inclusive

[HillWilliam]

79. I was cool all the way through until

the DOJ brief that compared LGBTQ's to pedophiles. That was the last straw.

Now I did not expect instant gratification on DOMA or DADT, given that the economy was crashing around our ears. I wanted healthcare reform badly; badly enough to wait on DOMA and DADT. Hell, my partner and I had been "living in sin" for almost 14 years. Another year or two wouldn't have mattered much. But zero action, not even an exploratory group from the WH when legislation was stirring in Congress on DADT in committee THEN that insulting DOJ brief came along, yes, my feelings were finally trodden on enough after the McClurkin and Warren insults. Fool me once, and all; that was a long string in a short period of time.

Will I vote for Obama again? Certainly. Will I donate time and money? Don't think so. There's some making up to be done. Pretty words in front of the cocktail-and-steak crowd ain't workin' for me. HRC has long-since lost its relevance. HRC has fattened its coffers and produced nothing for years. They're just one more group of self-serving lobbyists.

[struggle4progress]

189. I'd like to see more posts here on how to win the political fights. DOMA and DADT can be

repealed, but those and related issues have been central wingnut organizing issues for over a decade -- and the map of states with constitutional amendments against marriage unfortunately shows the wingnuts have made significant progress during that time. The real game is to construct political movements that will not only roll-back DOMA and DADT and those offensive amendments but will lead to an enduring national consensus against that prejudice

I certainly can't tell you how to spend your time and money, but I will say that I do hope you use both somehow to help construct a broad-based stable inclusive movement that has a strong local and state base and that can help resist bigots in the future

[kctim]

48. A brief word

for DUers who misinterpret a call for patience as a call to be quiet.

We aren't blind sheep. We are realists. We generally know more of what is going on because we see the WHOLE picture and accept how things really work. We know you don't stop a car going 80 mph on ice by slamming on the brakes, you gradually slow down while trying to keep control of the situation in hopes of reaching the destination you desire safely. You do this despite the screaming passengers, who's repeated calls for a sudden stop are based only on their immediate fears.

[AllentownJake]

51. A call for patience is ok,

However, we aren't talking about putting the breaks. In the case of Bernake, Geithner, and Summers they appear to be stepping on the gas. Same thing with Afghanistan. On Civil Rights, I can't say that he is going in the opposite direction but DUer's whose rights we are talking about, would like to see maybe the car after it stops go in the right direction.

[kctim]

57. This car is not even close to being stopped

and those screaming "turn here, turn here RIGHT NOW," are ignoring the seriousness of the situation. At times, it will feel as if you are speeding up and at other times you must go against what feels right and steer into the slide. This is being cautious rather than reactionary. This is what helps insure the car does not stop on its roof, but rather on its wheels so that it is capable of going in the right direction.

[AllentownJake]

58. In the car analogy

Do you switch drivers after the car has come to a stop, because the guys I named, were some of the people driving when it started to spin out.

[kctim]

61. That may be why we see this differently

President Bush was driving then, the passengers didn't like how he handled it and yanked him to the back seat and told President Obama to take the wheel. Yes, many things are still the same, but the car is now swerving rather than spinning out of control.
I trust this driver and am prepared to let him drive more than a few yards before I say to yank him out from behind the wheel.

[AllentownJake]

63. Really

From reading Bernake and Geithner's behavior and words. They seemed quite comfortable and confident in 2006 and 2007 with what they were doing.

[Skittles]

164. yup

they are the backseat drivers and Obama left them there when he assumed the wheel :thumbsdown:

[Skittles]

163. the backseat drivers are the same

[Romulox]

53. You guys were screaming "ARMAGEDDON" last November. Not "patience". nt

[AllentownJake]

55. Amazing how that is?

Isn't it.

Convincing congress they need $700 billion dollars to bail out the too big to fail, while worrying about the Moral Hazard of the too small to succeed.

I forget, who was the one that finally brokered the deal of TARP last October.

[tekisui]

49. Solid post.

Thanks, k, and r.

[newtothegame]

65. Why r u complaining? Obama made 'history' in November and apparently that's all that matters. n/t

[hfojvt]

67. It started with Rick Warren?

I thought it started with McClurkin. How soon we forget.

[QC]

74. Yes, it started with McClurkin.

I've been here since 2001, and I have never seen such an ugly and sustained campaign of hatred on this site as we saw then directed at anyone who dared to disagree with giving McClurkin a stage, and it has only intensified since then.

[inna]

68. thank you for this. KR+56. nt

[truebrit71]

69. You forgot one. On the Environment picking Ken Salazar as Sec of Interior was MADNESS...

...a very, very disappointing pick...

[Old Time Pagan]

124. we farm and let me tell you the choice of Vilsack as Sec of Ag

got me a copy of this article from OCA and a week of hard time sleeping on the couch.

Six Reasons Why Obama Appointing Monsanto's Buddy, Former Iowa Governor Vilsack, for USDA Head Would be a Terrible Idea

* Organic Consumers Association, November 12, 2008
Straight to the Source

TAKE ACTION TO STOP VILSACK'S CONFIRMATION

* Former Iowa Governor Tom Vilsack's support of genetically engineered pharmaceutical crops, especially pharmaceutical corn:
http://www.gene.ch/genet/2002/Oct/msg00057.html
http://www.organicconsumers.org/gefood/drugsincorn102302.cfm

* The biggest biotechnology industry group, the Biotechnology Industry Organization, named Vilsack Governor of the Year. He was also the founder and former chair of the Governor's Biotechnology Partnership.
http://www.bio.org/news/pressreleases/newsitem.asp?id=200...

* When Vilsack created the Iowa Values Fund, his first poster child of economic development potential was Trans Ova and their pursuit of cloning dairy cows.

* Vilsack was the origin of the seed pre-emption bill in 2005, which many people here in Iowa fought because it took away local government's possibility of ever having a regulation on seeds- where GE would be grown, having GE-free buffers, banning pharma corn locally, etc. Representative Sandy Greiner, the Republican sponsor of the bill, bragged on the House Floor that Vilsack put her up to it right after his state of the state address.

* Vilsack has a glowing reputation as being a schill for agribusiness biotech giants like Monsanto. Sustainable ag advocated across the country were spreading the word of Vilsack's history as he was attempting to appeal to voters in his presidential bid. An activist from the west coast even made this youtube animation about Vilsack
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hmoc4Qgcm4s
The airplane in this animation is a referral to the controversy that Vilsack often traveled in Monsanto's jet.

*Vilsack is an ardent support of corn and soy based biofuels, which use as much or more fossil energy to produce them as they generate, while driving up world food prices and literally starving the poor.

[enigmatic]

70. K&R

Perfect :toast:

[blues90]

72. K&R , right on.

[FrenchieCat]

75. Technically none of what you say is so in the sense that

there are no policies going in an opposite direction of what we had hoped for....
Rather the policies aren't being implemented fast enough, and/or the President is not doing enough
to take it to where we would want it to go.......
but to say that it is going in the other direction altogether is not really true.

The direction that all issues were headed under Bush, have either made a sharp turn or are now steering toward the direction we had hoped, even if it hasn't gotten there yet.

Plus, I never imagined nor hoped that Obama would accomplish all that there was to accomplish in less than the upcoming 3+ or 7+ remaining years. To believe that is to also believe that Obama only needs a 1 year 1 term presidency to fix it all. It ain't gonna happen, and he even prewarned us that it wouldn't.

So it ain't about instant anything; it never has been, and it never will be.

What I do believe though is that it is democracy in action to keep ourselves active and vocal
about what we don't like in reference to what the President is or is not doing.
That's the only thing that will keep the direction going as we want it, and so our participation
is a good thing and is needed, and in fact, I would say is key.

However, for those who hate everything this President as done to date,
or only predict failure in what he is about to do,
for you there is no hope, and so you never really deserved any.

[AllentownJake]

81. I disagree

The Wall Street policies, have been nothing but a continuation of Bush, maybe Bush lite. The reforms being bandied about are with all kinds of loopholes that exempt the very firms that were the head of the spear of the economic crisis.

Some blame can be put at the feet of congress, however when you have your top two economic advisers as miserable failures in every responsibility they have had in public life in the past you really can't expect them to be superstars in the future. That and re-appointing the Fed chief that oversaw the financial crisis with his hand up his ass. If the recent Matt Taibbi article is correct, he was and still is a facilitator of the very policies that led us down this path. Also at the end of the day, we all have to live with the reality that President Obama as a senator and Presidential candidate was the decider in TARP being passed. The fact it was done with no conditions is an error on his part, of epic consequences.

Another poster mentioned the Patriot Act and FISA. We got a glimpse of that last summer, and there is little reform. Closing Gitmo but keeping Bagram and other rendition centers going.

If anything the "change" has been tepid and limited to mere survival items, like the stimulus, which success will only be measured in 2010 to see if it made a lasting change or a temporary uptick.

The lobbying effort for Healthcare reform has been a disappointment to be mild. The fact that the President won't open up his email list to target democrats in his own party that stand against his reform measures says more about his priorities than anything else. OFA, which had great promise to help him drive his agenda has been a joke, narrowly focused on petition drives and phone calls, while not putting any real pressure on the politicians within his own party who are more of a threat to his re-election than his republican counterparts.

We are exchanging Iraq with Afghanistan. You can argue that it was discussed during the campaign but that is the reality we are merely exchanging one war with the other.

On civil rights, they aren't my rights, and I'd be damned if I told anyone to be patient with getting equal rights that I enjoy as a heterosexual.

[FrenchieCat]

89. Essentially, you made my point......

the direction we are currently headed in is not the same direction that we were in.

As for being patient, I ask that of no one....
and I encourage the debate, the multitude of voices,
and the pressure put on this President.....

But I still believe that those who only discuss negativity when it comes to this President,
have an agenda that is beyond the fact that they haven't seen accomplished what they had hoped
would be accomplished in this President's first 10 months of a 4 year term.

[AllentownJake]

90. I love when I'm accused of having an agenda

Riddle me this Frenchie, why would I have put myself on the line in 2008 if I had some sort of fail agenda. You know you can get away with that nonsense talk with some of the unfortunate DUers who supported Hillary or another candidate in the primary who are disappointed. You can't get away with that nonsense with me, when I raise legit issues and concerns.

You did nothing to address the OP or my response. You made some veiled accusations and some rhetoric. Your substance is surely lacking here.

[JoeyT]

100. A different direction looks awfully similar to the same

So if we're headed in an entirely different direction, why is the President Obama's administration fighting tooth and nail to prevent people that were tortured having their day in court? I suggest you Google Mohamed v Jeppesen Dataplan, Arar v Ashcroft, Jewel v NSA, and Hepting v AT&T. Of course most of what you'll find written about them was written by conservative front groups like the ACLU and EFF.

Yeah, we have an agenda: It's equal rights for everyone. Unfortunately it looks like that's just too much trouble judging by how often we're screamed at by fellow "progessives".

[AllentownJake]

106. 94 recs Frenchie

It would be one thing if I was the only one feeling this, and this is with the unrec squad working full time.

[Skittles]

166. um

Frenchie is part of the unrec squad no doubt

[notesdev]

76. Amen brother preach it! n/t

[ChiciB1]

77. THANKS For Making Your COMMENTS On The OBVIOUS!!! No, We Don't

expect miracles and realize some things take time... but to GO BACK on what you said on the campaign trail is JUST ANOTHER THING!!

And no, I'm NOT going to list the things he's changed his mind on... they've been mentioned many times before! Say what you will, I'm sure there will be name calling, but hey THAT'S NOTHING NEW these days!!!!!

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

80. "We aren't stupid"

Just as an aside... Stupid people don't know they're stupid...

[AllentownJake]

82. Point taken

:rofl:

[pleah]

83. K&R

[emilyg]

86. K/R

[Altoid_Cyclist]

87. We will never have 100% agreement on all issues due to the divisive nature of politics.

Lately, the name calling and finger pointing seem to have escalated.
I mentioned this the other day in one of the Pro-Obama - Anti-Obama mud fests. We are causing our own "divide & conquer" scenario due to some people having a "you're with us or you're against us" lean.

Some of what Pres. Obama has done; I like. Some; I don't like.
That doesn't mean that I'm anti Obama or pro Obabma. I have seen some people here insist that we adopt GOPhooey tactics and never criticize Pres. Obama lest we be labeled traitors while others seem to attack him a little too often.

Your post is exactly how things should work in a democracy, you can back Obama while not liking some of his choices. There are some of his appointments that have been positive while others have been way off. The Salazar app. left me shaking my head and I wasn't too keen on Holder or his Economic choices. I'll still back him since it will take some time to undo the previous 8 years. BUT..... I'm not going to offer him anything akin to Diplomatic Immunity just because of the (D) for party.

Not questioning what we feel is wrong leads to complacency which leads to lack of motivation which leads to laziness which leads to status quo leadership.

Thank you for your post! It was one that has been sorely needed in all of the cacophany of recent days.

[Trillo]

88. Good title!

Don't forget that the Democratic Party is politically broad, and as such there's going to be strong debate as their are a wide variety of viewpoints.

One of the things that bothered me most about Obama was during the campaign, and I rather doubt it had much to do with him personally. At some point he started being painted as a "left-leaning" progressive, and I don't mean by the opposition. Many of us here knew that not to be true, but when it came time to vote in the general election, it was Obama vs. McCain.

In any case, because he was painted thusly, there is going to be some disappointment in leftland.

[theFrankFactor]

92. You Got My Vote Jake!

I can't waste time on these hear-no-evil, speak-no-evil drones. Everything you mentioned are legitimate and have ABSOLUTELY NOTHING TO DO WITH INSTANT GRATIFICATION. It's a shame that even among our own gang we have to drag these, 'give 'em timers' around like dead weight.

I reject wholly the Michael Moore sentiment that putting foxes in charge of the hen house was a shrewd idea on Obama's part.

[Altoid_Cyclist]

99. Maybe we can appoint these two to guard pic- a- nic baskets.

Just like foxes guarding the hen house.
They know all about stealing them, so who better to guard them???



:sarcasm:


I hate to repeat myself, but I used these two critters twice today.
It seemed appropriate both times though.

[Myrina]

93. Applause, Applause

Perfectly well stated. Thank you!


:applause: :patriot:

[saracat]

95. Speaking of "instant gratification". The Prtez "promised" Planned Parenthood

that the "Frredom Of Choice Act" FOCA would be the very first Bill that he would sign and he did it on video that was posted right here. No effort has even been made to get it out of committee. If he hadn't "promised" it, perhaps the instant gratification would not have been expected.

[JDPriestly]

103. Here is the news from the AG's office:

http://www.usdoj.gov/opa/pr/2009/October/

You can check each month. There are a few fraud indictments -- for what looks like maybe Medicare fraud and some financial fraud including at least one case involving a UBS depositor. Stanford is listed. But none of the really big criminals have been indicted and has been noted, it is possible that witnesses (or even possibly conspirators) are in the Obama administration. Not a pretty sight in my opinion.

The shame of it is that because the government bailed out the crooks in the financial institutions, shareholders can't even sue to find out what happened. The perfect crimes (meaning crimes performed so that the perpetrators cannot be indicted and the details cannot be known) have been committed right before our eyes and we will never know all the facts.

[AllentownJake]

105. TARP was a crime

The failure of the administration, congress, or the AG's office to go after the perpetrators that made TARP necessary is the bigger crime. History will not judge them well, when these people use their position of power to commit an even greater fraud.

[FLAprogressive]

104. K&R

[Nikki Stone1]

109. Sad but true kick

and recommend

[BeHereNow]

119. +1

k&r.
BHN

[Kermitt Gribble]

125. K&R! n/t

[waiting for hope]

127. K&R .. there are so many things that

have happened in the last nine months that if it were Bush, people here would be screaming bloody murder. But now, because it's our side, they seem to take it with a grain of salt. Where are the values and ethics that brought us here to November 4, 2008? How many more hard working people are going to lose their jobs and have little to no hope of finding another? How many more hard working people are going to lose their homes and have no where to go? If something soon isn't done about the high rate of unemployment, there is going to be even more dissent - people react when they are scared.

Obama wasn't my first choice, nor my second or third, but I voted for him. I had hope, until the cabinet picks started to come in. Bullshit on those who claimed his cabinet picks didn't matter - they do.

[Hubert Flottz]

128. K&R

[lib2DaBone]

131. Bullshit.. We don't need War In Afghanistan...

What is wrong with you people? (You people ...meaning American Tax Payers)

The United states is broke.. we can no longer afford to pay for war to defend Israel, Columbia or any other country.

If you had your choice at this point.. would you not want to pull our troops out of futile situations and concentrate on saving at least some portions of the USA?

[ProSense]

134. Here's my rebuttal to your OP

here

[AllentownJake]

138. Well thought out

:rofl:

[ProSense]

139. Yes it was. 1 + 1 = 2

Your OP is condescending.

[Greyhound]

157. What were you expecting?

"What a rube"

[AllentownJake]

158. I don't know

Maybe more than a two sentence rebuttal.

[Greyhound]

159. Over the years I have created a list of these (idiots, dupes, provocateurs, true believers whatever)

and this is one of them.

They have nothing to say and tirelessly work for their masters.

ETA: I've just noticed that your thread has attracted some more of them.

[ProSense]

160. "They have nothing to say and tirelessly work for their masters."

Some people are just self-righteous assholes.

[Greyhound]

181. My, what a cutting, not to mention erudite, response.

And you are a silly, nasty, poo-poo head.

Oh, and I almost forgot. "I am rubber, you are glue..."

[ProSense]

184. It takes a clown to use "erudite" sarcastically after making

this statement: "They have nothing to say and tirelessly work for their masters."

[AllentownJake]

161. During an election year

I can see being so concerned about party unity and what not but come on, it's 2009.

[stray cat]

135. "we are the borg" "you will be assimilated"

[unapatriciated]

140. K&R Because We Do Deserve the Hope and Change We worked for.

"However, for those who hate everything this President as done to date,
or only predict failure in what he is about to do,
for you there is no hope, and so you never really deserved any"

I'm so tired of statements like the one above. We do praise when President Obama does the right thing, they just chose to ignore those post. They focus on the ones where we dare to disagree with some of Obama's appointments or policies. These threads are littered with you never really supported him, sore loser, hater, racist, oh didn't you get your pony, bitter much and my personal favorite "your concern is duly noted". There is no debate on why we are concerned just a dismissal with name calling. I was born a D and my father told me often that the biggest difference between a D and an R was our ability to criticize ourselves when we were wrong and correct our mistakes.

[MissDeeds]

141. Excellent post

Thanks for being so candid and saying what many here think.

Glad to give it a K&R. :kick:

[earcandle]

142. refrain from responding to those who are blinded by their greed.

That way you save your biology from the stress of rage.

We here know what is up.  We need to recruit more Americans to

read our pages so they too know what is happening.

[cliffordu]

143. And it's condescention of the most infantile kind to claim that

The two morons you pointed out as architects of the current mess when they are NOT, they are just the latest of the long line of shills that have been ruining the economy since Reagan wandered around in his haze.

You are absolutely correct about Warren, but fail to mention Bishop Gene Robinson. The lack of marriage equality and DADT are intolerable shackles, but I don't know ANYONE that remebers who the fuck Rick warren IS, let alone how much influence he has.

Same goes for the Bishop, unfortunately.

Don't you dare suggest I am happy about the troop increase in Afghanistan. If we leave RIGHT NOW the numbers of people killed by the taliban will rival what the North Vietnamese accompished after we left Vietnam.

Some people here seem just fine with that, as long as we don't have to see the pictures of the beheadings in the sports stadium.



He ain't a contestant on American Idol, and you might not be an activist,

Maybe you're just Simon Cowel

[Thickasabrick]

152. Blasphemous!! My eyes are burning!!

K&R

[Greyhound]

156. "Me thinks the (cliffordu) doth protest too much"

:rofl:

[cliffordu]

177. Que ???

Care to refute my points??

[NYC_SKP]

194. They can't refute while...

...their mouths are completely full of shit.

:P

Which reminds me of a joke, but we'll save that for another time.

[Skittles]

162. THANK YOU

[AllentownJake]

165. Your Welcome

:hi:

Now do you see why it is so angry.

[Skittles]

167. aw HELL fucking yes I see why

makes me angry so many DUers can't, or worse, WON'T see it

[ProSense]

171. "makes me angry so many DUers can't, or worse, WON'T see it"

Good.

[travelingtypist]

168. "I'm not a member of an organized politics party."

"I'm a Democrat." Or the whole herding cats thing. Or the one about the circular firing squads. Pick you metaphor. They all have a grain of truth to them. It still surprises me on here that some people expect us to be like the lockstep authoritarian Republicans. We're not. If we didn't disagree and fight with each other, we wouldn't be Democrats.

[whoneedstickets]

170. You can't turn this 'ship of state' on a dime...

Yeah, I'd like to withdraw from Iraq tomorrow, wind down Afghanistan, get single-payer health care and full equality for our GBLT citizens signed this week. But I'm mature enough to understand that change that is too quick is often fleeting while that which comes from steady action is more enduring. This is also a world of politics and that all the people he needs in his winning constituency don't think like me but may need some convincing. He needs the time to build up evidence that the change he want's isn't 'radical'.

[bvar22]

174. That "Big Ship" metaphor just doesn't work for me

On some issues, immediate results are easily achievable.
Obama could achieve immediate results by simply giving Holder the nod for serious investigations and
prosecutions of Bush War Criminals and War Profiteers.
SEE.
Immediate change of direction.
Easy.

Actually opening the Health Care debate to include serious consideration of Single Payer can be done over night and produce an IMMEDIATE change of direction. I would be happy with just a fair discussion of the FACTS about the Single Payer Option and let America make its choice. It is NOT Fair and Honest to refuse to even discuss that option.

Sending MORE troops to Afghanistan...WRONG direction.
He CAN change that direction with a pen stroke.

There are many ways to produce an immediate change of direction.
In fact, almost anything will produce a change of direction except "Hold the Course".

On too many issues, Obama is simply Holding the Course, and on some, is actually turning the WRONG direction.

[QC]

179. Especially when you're also playing 5,264,558,744-dimensional chess! n/t

[RetroLounge]

175. "Some DUers favor real peace not just peace prizes"

:applause:

RL

[bvar22]

176. OOPS! My bad again.

I forgot to Rec this wonderful OP.
Fixed it.

Over the last few months, I have developed the habit of simply ignoring the Rec vs Unrec button, but with the addition of the Top Tens Page, it actually makes a difference.

:patriot:

[winyanstaz]

180. I agree with your article here...K & R..

It isnt Instant Gratification when you see people are dying in the meantime while we hope and pray he will get his act together.
I hope he puts a stop to the wars but so far I don't see anything but more wars..

[midnight]

182. R&K to bring all the troops home....

[rtassi]

185. A very thought provoking post ... JFK spoke in interviews about the limits

of presidential power ... and I don't think he meant not being able to get better theater tickets ... The office, IMO, as evidenced by the events of the early 60's, and his assassination specifically, has been greatly compromised to such an extent as to render any president functionally little more then a business agent for the corporate and military state, as Oliver Stone pointed out in his film. Assuming that President Obama is equally a man of character and moral conscience, and a student of history at the same time, it would be logical to then assume that he would be aware of the risks personally associated with rapid forced change; particularly when the electorate does not have your back! After all, everyone of the powerful elements that JFK dealt with within his failed government still exist, only now more emboldened by their successes of the past, and an increased ability to control the message. A message not intended to promote healthy or civil debate.

It doesn't make it any easier for me to take, given the enormity of the injustices we are forced to endure, that the significant changes we all would hope for ... can't come entirely from the office of the President Of The United States. I am not disappointed in President Obama's performance so far, because I had no great expectations ... although I too phone banked and canvased ... not with a naive belief however that he alone could change our country in 4 or 8 years, but rather because I thought he might inspire our youth, as I once was inspired by a young president, to find perhaps for the first time their collective voices, or to possibly reengage the most jaded among us in a renewed effort ... and of course to defeat soundly on speck, Sarah and John!

I see evidence of a change in thinking beginning to take place among average people ... but it is subtle and tremendously overshadowed by all the noise. I don't have much confidence in the 2 party system being the catalyst for that change either; and as long as we are divided we are "easy pickens" for the corporatist state ... the changes we envision will have to come I think, from a deeper conviction to seeking truth, self awareness, and a reexamination of our attitudes toward others we as yet can't embrace. We must reject as a society, warfare as a means to any end, before we could ever hope to advance the cause of peace, and any attempt to pressure the government to act peacefully, makes us all look stupid in the end if we are not personally committed.

I can't compete with regards to the speed and excellence of some of the responses your post received ... frankly, I don't know where you all find the time to amass the information you have at your fingertips ... I guess I need to read faster!
rt.

[NYC_SKP]

190. I Suspect that had it not been for the Nobel Prize Decision, this thread would not be here.

Without debating the specifics in the OP, I sense that the timing of the rant is related to the very good recent news.

I mean, we don't want anyone to thing we have a great POTUS with all these things going wrong.

On the matter of "Instant Gratification", anytime I read "we", as in "we are the activist", I can be fairly certain that a myopic piece of prose will follow.

"We" aren't anything, we aren't lockstepped into any POV.

Some like Obama, some hate him, some are in between, but a post like this only serves to pull together those of like mind without really convincing anyone else of anything except that calling out the president and other DUers gives some people, when they hit the "post" button, well...

...Instant Gratification.

Have a donut.

:donut:

[Old Time Pagan]

192. It would appear that either you haven't read the thread

or you've totally missed the point. Go back and read my posts, neither of them have a thing to do with any award Obama has received or may receive. Neither did the original post nor did most of the responses to that post.

Apparently you're blind to what's going on in our government right now, too bad for you.

You can have my donut.

[AllentownJake]

193. Actually

I could care less about the Noble Peace Prize. My only comment was it was premature, not that it was good or bad. Frankly, if I were the President, 9 months into my first year a Noble Peace Prize isn't something I'd be that excited about. I could detail the reasoning for this, but that is generally lost on the DU crowd.

The post was in reaction to another shut-up or the world will end post. The title of the post was a copycat. So there is your origin of the post.

[NYC_SKP]

195. Fair enough...

...but it might be more effective to respond within that thread rather than risk a new OP seeming to be knee-jerk or broadbrushing, IMHO.

:thumbsup: