Dixie Opt out

[DonCoquixote]

OK, I know that Canada's plan started off with Saskatchewan doing, then the rest following suit, I get that.

I also get that many people are frustrated with Dixie. Never mind that many Democrats are there, never mind that we fought to get Bush out, that states like my Florida, and North Carolina became Blue.

However, I will not lie, the glee and naivete I see regarding this issue has me very disappointed.

OK, I hear some of you "No Governor would dare opt out, as that would be political suicide." Here's a news flash, if Morning Joe is making that same complaint, that means the GOP WANT you to think just that. I do not think Florida will, though there will be much scare tactics trying to tell seniors that this plan will limit their medicare. Texas, sorry, you know Texas and South Carolina are drooling at the thought of making their own "solution."

But let's say only a few states "opt out." What does this say?

a) One, it says that we, as "leftists" are very willing to screw over fellow leftists if it means we get OUR piece of the pie. Screw Dixie! Of course, that means we can be divided and conquered easily, because then the right realizes they just have to let a few states get more, and hang the rest.

B) it means the 50 state strategy is bunk, funny how this was supposedly Howard Dean's idea.

Do not get me wrong, I understand why Reid and company did this. Yes, I am one of the many disappointed that Obama has tried so hard to woo Ms. Snowjob. However, just because we happen to be the minority down here does not mean you have the right to jump for joy when you know we will be screwed, again.

[kenfrequed]

1. Uhm...

Right...

I'm sorry but states in the Deep South tend to attempt to take more money than they give in regards to federal tax dollars. Do you really imagine, if an opt out is in place, that the southern states are actually going to honestly opt out?

[Recursion]

2. We can only carry flyover country so far

We've tried, and your neighbors have failed. Move somewhere real. Sorry (and I do mean that).

[DonCoquixote]

8. Flyover country?

Move somewhere real? Gee, how very GOP sounding. I guess everyone in New Orleans should have learned to swim better. We all know how easy it is to sell your house and move.

As far as Flyover country goes, as much as you may discount us, we are the only ones keeping your latte sipping ass safer from the rednecks. WE carried Florida, without which, McCain or Palin would be bombing Tehran as we speak! If you do not care about those of us operating behind enemy lines, do not whine that you never win battles, because you betray everyone who would fight for you.

[Recursion]

14. Dude, I grew up in Mississippi

I love the state. I wish I could stand to live there still. But I had to look after myself at some point; I had to move to a place with jobs and available health care.

[WolverineDG]

17. You "tried'

bull shit. All "you" did was take our money & abandon us to the wolves.

dg

[Kalyke]

19. I don't want to live in the frigid Northeast or the rainy Northwest

and California is a joke.

Why should I have to move? Why don't you move down here and help boost our numbers up from 42 percent to 51 percent?

We have jobs. We have temperate weather. We pay low taxes. Wages are low, too, but so is the cost of living.

How 'bout it?

[Recursion]

31. Sorry, I grew up there

You don't have to move, it's just that if you want to not live in a conservative area you should.

[SoCalDem]

34. "...Wages are low, too, but so is the cost of living..." therein lies the problem

It costs money to live "well" or even moderately well, almost anywhere these days. People who are living in "low cost areas", still are faced with virtually the same prices as other places, for many (most?) of their living expenses..

gas prices
health insurance premiums
college costs
car payments
auto insurance
same high credit card interest rates & shitty interest on savings

there may be a "break" when it comes to real estate and/or rents, but the lack of an adequate tax base CREATES the need for low paying jobs, since sweetheart deals are cut, with PUBLIC money, to woo corporations to come there in the first place, so they surely aren;t going to negate their windfall, by paying high wages, now are they?

The money to run basic services has to come from somewhere though, if there are low/no taxes being paid, so it then comes in the form of federal subsidies (PUBLIC TAX MONEY paid by everyone..even people who don't live there and who are paying their own high state taxes, along with higher prices for their housing)..And those companies that relocated to poorer areas to save a buck, and cash in on the kickback scams their governors run, leave long-time workers and whole communities high and dry, and then THEIR communities fall short and have to get more federal help..agains with public taxpayer money..

It's ALL related..we are all connected

[bvar22]

46. We moved to The South for those reasons...and others.

We won't be moving back "up North".

The South belongs to America.
We'll be working to turn it Blue.

Solid Liberal Democrats, strong in their beliefs, wanting to live closer to the land in a clean environment should check out The South.
Limousine Liberals should just keep "flying over".
We can't use you.

[bvar22]

42. And some people dare to call Liberals "Elitists".

How did they EVER get that notion?

Rahm and the DLC strategy of abandoning the "flyover states" brought us Bush.

Those of fighting in the "flyover states" brought us Democratic victories in 2006 and 2008.

[Recursion]

48. *shrug* I'm sick of paying for their highways and bridges NT

[bvar22]

49. I've got mine, so fuck everybody else...

Nice.

You are sick of making America a better place for Americans.
Nice again.

I am sick of funding Wars of Choice, Funding a Mega-HUGE Military, Welfare for LARGE Corporations, and Bailouts for Wall Street Billionaires.

To tell the truth, I haven't given much thought about withholding funds for Roads and Bridges in America.
Tell me more about how de-funding Roads & Bridges so will make America a better place.

[ChairmanAgnostic]

3. bullshit. I haven't seen such warped logic since

Spock and Kirk flew back in time by accident.
The argument you make is:

a) willing to screw over other leftists
b) 50 state strategy is bunk

First of all, the opt out provisions won't be available until 2014. IF a state majority decides to remove coverage for the hundreds of thousands, even millions of its citizens, I suspect that there will be more than a howl. It will be absolutely impossible, even in Dixie, to remove a public option once it is available to the uninsured, the underinsured, and those with pre-existing conditions - and that's just the GOP supporters!

How the HELL is that screwing over other leftists? Absolute rot, as logic goes.

Next, this has nothing to do with the 50 state strategy. NOT ONE BIT. The 50 state strategy was simple. Get someone to run in every race, and provide at least the bare minimum to that candidate, in terms of logistics, intel, training, and some support. We won many races simply by showing up, and the color of more than a few states turned purple, instead of red, as a result. The 50 state strategy had nothing to do with medicare. health care. Insurance reform. It was solely, and remains solely, about getting Ds to run for every office, and to provide them with a modicum of support. The strategy not only worked, it worked well. And it continues to work.

[DonCoquixote]

7. Let me ask you a question

Do you live, or have you lived, in the South?

If yes, then you know why I said what I did/

If not, then to paraphrase Satchmo, "if you do not get it, you never will get it."

[ChairmanAgnostic]

18. Ooooh, there's some special dispensation only available to residents?

Can't honestly say I lived there, except for the 6 weeks in Mena, ArKansas in deps, or 2 months in Louisiana in more deps, or 8 weeks in Alibami doing document searches and depositions, or that horrid week in Florida, or those months bouncing between north and south carolina, or that simply disgusting summer month in Houston. Damn, how do people live there?

[LondonReign2]

15. Absolutely correct Chairman

This has zero to do with the 50 state strategy. To think so is an extreme leap of (incorrect) logic.

[sharp_stick]

4. The only way leftists in Dixie

will stop getting screwed is to completely change the political game in Dixie. Nothing, and I mean nothing, that Obama or a Democratic congress does over the term of their majority will ever pass in Dixie. I'm well aware of good Democrats in Alabama and all over the South but the levers of power are still controlled tightly by the same plantation owning scumbags that have held them for centuries.

Deans 50 State strategy was designed to win seats, and that's it. As long as the South remains the way it is there isn't a hope in hell of actually electing a Progressive politician outside of a metro area IMO and in order to maintain any form of control we will have to accept some DINO's in the pool.

Unfortunately all people unlucky enough to live in deep red States can hope for is that a Public Option plan comes out being wildly successful, so much so that even the POS's controlling your City Councils, County and State Governments can't stop it from being adopted.

[RaleighNCDUer]

5. It is not about 'you'.

It is about the political climate in which you live. Any state that opts out will suffer the consequences, and will eventually opt back in.

If there is a choice between a bill with an opt out, and no bill at all, I'll go with the first, thank you. Even if I am in an 'opt out' state. I AM NOT THAT FUCKING IMPORTANT. I will deal with it just as people are dealing with it EVERYWHERE today. If the end result is the utter destruction of the Republican mindset, all the better.

[Bigmack]

6. I think Dixie will opt out....

because lots of unreconstructed rebels can't stand the idea that their taxes might go for health care for black people.

[rampart]

9. louisiana will never opt in

[ddeclue]

12. X-actly!

[ddeclue]

10. FL will DEFINITELY OPT OUT: GOP Gov, Senate and House.

:cry:

[rucky]

55. Sen. Nelson (FL) agrees. n/t

[AllentownJake]

11. Honestly

at this point I'm more willing for states to address this issue. Tennessee has a robust public option.

If a movement took hold in PA, we'd have a better chance of getting decent reform passed than anything that is going to come from D.C.

I'm starting to become more and more of a state's right person because frankly the fuckers from Dixie constantly are watering down reform.

[Pithlet]

13. I'm sorry, but as someone who lives in one of those states, I think you're wrong.

Yes,the progressives in the red states fighting the good fight. It won't do anyone any good for us to insist on telling every one else they have go without too while we're working at it, especially if doing so would kill the health care movement. I wish it didn't have to be that way right now, and I realize part of the problem is due to the Dems themselves. And it is a step in the right direction for this country, even if it's a small one. It's a possible step toward eventual overall reform, and we will all benefit from that. Insisting on an all or nothing approach that gets us nothing only puts us farther from that goal.

[CTyankee]

16. 70% of the Americanpeople want the PO.

I think the question gets down to whether we deny everybody because some MIGHT have their state opt out. But I can see that this could happen anywhere if the PO is not funded properly. What it means is that progressives in states that might be expected to opt out would need to fight like hell to keep it and organize like crazy to get it kept in place. I think potential opt out states would be stronger for the struggle, progressives would get stronger in those states.

There ain't no guarantees in most any states...

[Kalyke]

20. Can we stop calling it "Dixie."

I live in the Southeastern United States. It's not a monolith.

[Tesha]

24. Perhaps when white folk stop flying that damned-fool flag of Dixie, we'll stop calling it that. (NT)

[DearAbby]

21. make an amendment

States can only opt out after the program has been in place for a period of time, and only by a ballot vote.

[ecstatic]

22. If the alternative is NO PUBLIC OPTION AT ALL

then we go with the opt out clause and fight like hell to make sure 1) the states that opt-in have great success, 2) any citizens in opt-out states know what they're missing, 3)eventually all states have the public option.

If we don't have the votes, we don't have the votes. It's time to be realistic and accept incremental change as opposed to this "all or nothing" approach that so many around here seem to want.

[WolverineDG]

25. Thanks for throwing us under the bus!

Love ya! Mean it!

:eyes:

dg

[LondonReign2]

27. Throwing you under the bus?

So it's the Dems' fault if idiotic right-wing governors elected by a majority of idiotic right-wing voters decided to opt-out their states? Riiiiggghhhhtt.

[WolverineDG]

32. Just love the hate on DU!

If you're not in a High Holy Blue State, you're expendable! Just love the "I got mine, fuck you" attitudes here.

dg

[ecstatic]

51. No. You and others "all or nothing" approach is what has thrown us

all under the bus for decades. Get out the way.

[WolverineDG]

53. So as long as you get yours

the rest of us can go fuck ourselves? Fuck that.

dg

[kjackson227]

23. Apparently, we Dems. haven't heard of the old saying, "divide and conquer"...

Everyone who's comfortable in throwing us under the bus shouldn't be counting their chickens before they hatch. "OUR" public option is still in the beginning stages, so be careful... what goes around comes around.

[WolverineDG]

26. Don't you just love it

The High Holy Blue Staters treat our states like crap, then wonder why they can't turn 'em blue.

dg

[Shagbark Hickory]

28. At least the people that need health insurance can move to a state that does have it.

I know that's terrible but it's better than having to move out of the country or going broke.

[Are_grits_groceries]

29. Move?

Where? With what money? to what jobs?

[DonCoquixote]

30. Excuse me?

Why do many people seem to think moving is so viable. If you are middle class, you have seen your home become half it's worth, and could not sell it for a quarter of it's worth. If you are poor, well, you might not even be able to get out of your city if a Hurricane hits (just ask some of the fine folks in New Orleans.) Of course, even those of us born up North know we will probably get a warm Yankee welcome, the same as the Mexicans get when they excercise their "option" to move.

I am not saying I do not understand why this was done, even though some of you may need to think that they are giving the Confederates exactly what they wanted by being able to drive through a divide in the nation. What I am saying is this:

One: stop assuming that any Dixie Governor that opts out is commiting poltical suicide. Yes, that may work for some, but rest assured, the Churches and the Media will get right behind whatever "brave" son or daughter of the Confederacy opts out. At the VERY LEAST, the Governor that opts out is going to be anointed with 15 minutes of fame and a book deal, which is more than enough incentive for mischief.

If we really want Health care to be the right it should be, know that this fight will continue. Even if we could feed Obama a magic pill, one that would make him so far to the left he made Dennis Kucinich look like Glenn Beck, know the real fight is in the Congress, Senate, and State Houses, which is where it always was.

Two: Here is the question, what do we, as people leaning left, do when some of these states opt out? Let me be blunt, are you willing to help those of us who have been fighting the fight behind enemy lines? Are you really willing to help continue the fight, or, are you going to cut and run when you get yours, and say "I'm all right Jack." If you are one of these folks that says "F--K the South!", despite the fact that many of the Left's best warriors come from there, then I demand that you admit one thing, you are just another person who does not give a damn about anyone else, as long as you get yours. You are just another right winger, with a slightly different flavor.

I really do hope I am wrong on this, I hope that this can be the fuse that lights some real fireworks, the sort that blows the GOP out of the water. However, if there is one thing the GOP knows how to do, it is to have us attack each other. One of the unpleasant truths that we have to realize is that there is no way the Right wing could have achieved it's current position of influence without us giving them a lot of help; we love to infight so much that the right wing can just sit back, sip some beers, and pick the remains like vultures.

[WolverineDG]

33. Very Republican attitude there nt

[Shagbark Hickory]

35. Good point. I learned it from the capitalist whores and corporations. Read more...

When a business isn't thriving in a particular market, they often close it down and move to a new market where they will. Never mind the jobs that are lost. GM for example. Cost too much money to make cars in the USA, so they make them elsewhere.

Lets say you eat lunch every day at a diner that gives you what you want and you're happy eating there.
All of a sudden, the service and food goes down hill. What do you do? You don't rally the customers around ousting the management. You just eat somewhere else.

Yeah, I sound like a republican because I know that money talks and bullshit walks.
I'm looking for any excuse to pull my tax dollars out of GA and give it to a state that doesn't want its residents to die quickly.

[WolverineDG]

41. And folks wonder why the Dems don't win

there's your answer......

dg

[Shagbark Hickory]

54. I'd really like to know why you say that.

I'm just being a consumer.
The people are powerless against the insurance companies and the conservatives IMO.

[WolverineDG]

56. The Democratic party has abandoned those of us in the South

we know when they talk about health care or other reforms "for all" they only mean the blue states. Those of us in the red states are only noticed when the party needs money. And on websites such as this, "progressives" regularly bash Southerners & make it clear that we are not welcome at "their" table.

dg

[NNN0LHI]

37. That is really bullshit

How many people do you know that can afford to jump up and move that easy? Or don't have family that can't be left behind?

I don't know many.

Don

[Shagbark Hickory]

39. An answer.

I don't know anyone that can really afford to California or New England if those are the only states that don't opt out but if you're at risk of going broke due to insurance company greed and need health care, then how can you not afford to pick up and move?

[NNN0LHI]

36. We are on an anonymous political chat site

How do you know what political persuasion the people are who you say are posting things that can be construed as glee and naivete?

I don't like the opt-out idea at all. But I don't want to deny HCR to the people who really need it so I am naturally torn on this issue.

Don

[DonCoquixote]

43. well

Many of them are at least claiming to be Democrats, and many of them claim to be to the left of the Blue Dogs. Granted, none of us can account for Trolls, but when you see people who have had 1000+ posts say it is all right to hurt Southern liberals, you have to wonder.

[NNN0LHI]

45. I have seen innumerable 1000+ posters get weeded out of DU over the years

Don't let that one fool you.

Don

[marshall]

38. Why have an "opt out" if they don't expect some states to do it?

If it won't work without every state doing it, then don't have an opt out option.

[kjackson227]

40. It's their way of appeasing the damned blue dogs.

[NNN0LHI]

50. And without the blue dogs giving us a majority in both houses of Congress and Obama...

... in the White House we wouldn't even be discussing HCR. We would be discussing the latest round of tax cuts for the wealthy and keeping the military option open for Iran. With some fundie nut like Palin waiting for gramps to kick the bucket so she can get her grubby little fingers on the nuclear football to begin Rapture 1.0

I will take the majority with the blue dogs over that any fucking day.

Don

[kjackson227]

52. and... unless the Dems get their acts together it's going to be all...

for "naught" anyway. And, at the moment "DISCUSSING" HCR is ALL we're doing in spite of the fact that we have the majority. These blue dogs don't give a damned about no one but themselves and their lobbyist "friends", so your loyalty is misplaced. I've worked and donated to get Obama elected just like some of you, so I don't need you to tell me what the "alternative" would've been. What good is having a majority if your dear blue dogs block HCR, ANYWAY... just a lot of effort and money gone down the drain. So, I'll be damned if I'll be muzzled because some think it's unfair/whiney of me to fight for MY HCR rights... I've EARNED the right to do so.

[dembotoz]

44. ah yes, state rights

after all these years still not fully settled.
I guess if a state decides its people should have inadequete health care, do we have to let them???


I would make a crack about some states wanting to be like a third world county, but there already are 3rd world countires with better health care than here.
Much to my shame, i should not insult 3rd world countries.

[bvar22]

47. ANY state "opting out" makes the PO weaker for EVERYBODY.

This is NOT rocket science.

Think about it:
LESS people in an already restricted Public Option = smaller risk pool =

HIGHER Premiums = even smaller competitive edge (if any) = closer to FAIL for the Public Option =

"Well, we tried government run Health Care, but it just doesn't work in America" =

Mandated For Profit Health Insurance with NO Public Option for anyone.