I've just been reviewing the posts made when Dr. Tiller was murdered

[cali]

Interesting how many people here were insisting that Roeder was a terrorist. The hypocrisy is just astounding.

I don't believe that either Roeder or Hasan are terrorists, but deeply sick men who murdered.

[SemiCharmedQuark]

1. How do you define terrorism?

I tend to think of it as an action intended to scare the opposition into submission. It extends beyond killing one person or a series of persons to the entire group. As such, I do count Roeder as a terrorist. That murder had purpose that was two fold: To kill Tiller and to serve as a warning for other doctors (which is working somewhat).

I honestly haven't been following the Hasan case closely. I do not know what his intentions were other than to kill a lot of people. For the moment, I've put him in the "sick murderer" category.

[MajorChode]

31. The direct targeting of civilians to achieve a political goal

Using that definition, Hasan wouldn't make the cut because regardless of his motives, he didn't appear to directly target civilians.

Roeder is not as cut and dried. On the surface, it appears as if he would meet the definition, but it's hard to say what his motives were. He may have been just targetting Tiller himself in an attempt to prevent more abortions or he may have been trying to send a message to all abortion doctors. Clearly he was supported and encouraged by those who support anti-abortion terrorism.

[NYC_SKP]

2. Tiller intended to strike terror into abortion providers and patients across the US.

Doesn't that qualify?

:shrug:

[frazzled]

7. And perhaps Maj. Hassan was trying to strike terror into the heats of US military personnel

We don't know enough yet, but I am sure there are some pretty terrified army personnel and their extended families right now.

I'd say the acts are pretty commensurate.

[noiretextatique]

8. tiller was the victim eom

[cali]

9. Actually, that's not what he says.

He says he killed Dr. Tiller to save babies.

[NYC_SKP]

24. Then it's a matter of intent?

I can accept that, someone who kills an abortion provider with the fetuses not aborted in mind, and not the effect on other providers, might not fit the definition.

Not sure what the law says about it.

[niyad]

26. tiller intended to strike terror???? perhaps you mean roeder????

[NYC_SKP]

33. my bad, right you are. doh.

[NRaleighLiberal]

3. Generalization is wrong in these cases - they are each totally unique.

[frazzled]

4. Whatever we call these things

I think we have to be careful as well not to just call it the acts of "deeply sick men." Both men appear to have committed their murders out of some deep ideological, or religious motivation.
And for those of us who have argued for many years in favor of distinguishing "hate" crimes from regular crimes, we have to be careful not to be hypocritical here, too.
So whatever label we slap on these crimes, we have to say they are different than regular sick-man-murders. They're something else, and the way we treat these crimes should be different too. Even if mental health enters into it.

There is much to be learned about Maj. Hassan and his motives, so it's too soon to come to any firm conclusions. But from early indications, and from the communications he had with the imam in Yemen, it would appear that at least a part of his actions can be traced to ideological motivations. He could have gone AWOL, he could have committed suicide: he chose to make some kind of statement by killing innocent American soldiers in their own "home."

I think you are right to point out the hypocrisy between our treatment of these various cases. No violence done in the name of any ideology should be accepted in any way on any level. Those of us who condemned the Weather Underground for their bombings and armed robberies, even though they began with sympathetic political positions, learned this lesson a long time ago.

[mmonk]

5. Hasan came out of nowhere and should be called a mass murderer

with specific targets, those being deployed for war. Roeder, on the other hand, did engage in terrorizing women going to abortion clinics, made threats to clinics, etc. before he took his actions.

[cali]

11. actually, Hasan didn't just target those going to war. n/t

[mmonk]

18. He attacked the deployment staging or prep area. He also didn't give

warning to his victims in that his intention was just to kill, not terrorize.

[noiretextatique]

6. roeder was a terrorist

he was an anti-abortion activist.

[cali]

10. so all anti-abortion activists are terrorists? Oh puleeze.

[noiretextatique]

17. no..just the ones who MURDER A DOCTOR

for political purposes. it's a textbook case of terrorism.
:wtf:

[tonysam]

21. Since what this guy did was a political crime,

yes he is a terrorist.

The vast majority of anti-abortion activists aren't terrorists; they don't condone killing doctors who perform abortions.

Your post is pointless.

[niyad]

27. you must know a very different group of woman-hating, pro-forced birthers than I do,

then. can you show us where there has been serious condemnation from the anti-choicers for all the murders of providers and other clinic workers? for the bombing of clinics? for the anthrax scare (a terrorist act)?

not that this rises to the level of terrorism, but how many times have you been assaulted by the anti-choicers? gotten death threats? been stalked?

[depakid]

28. A whole lot of them and their organizations are...

I don't necessarily exclude elements of the Catholic church from my definition, either btw.

[stray cat]

15. Because you want him to be because you disagree with him and he is conservative

[noiretextatique]

19. because he MURDERED A DOCTOR for political purposes

that makes him a terrorist.

[cali]

22. that's not why he said he did it.

[noiretextatique]

23. right...let's all take the word of an anti-abortion freak

who mowed down a doctor in his church. sure :eyes:

[stray cat]

12. DU is very selective on its perceived victims and perpetrators

Murder is only terrorism when it fits the "progressive agenda" otherwise the person is just disturbed and a victim of society.

[Bonobo]

13. If Roeder's intention was to frighten others into stopping providing abortions, he was a terrorist.

It is like a hate crime in that regard.

Hassan was unlikely trying to incite terror in the mass of soldiers, so I would draw the line there in terms of how I define "terrorist".

[EFerrari]

14. Go back and read again. Roeder was plugged into a network

and Hasan wasn't. Having said that, the tag "terrorist" isn't one I like using because it's just a hot button politicians like to press.

[stray cat]

16. He went to meetings and Hasan went to meetings

[EFerrari]

20. So you think going to a mosque is like going to a meeting

of anti-abortion activists.

That's disgusting.

[deaniac21]

25. It all depends on whose ox is getting gored.

[The Straight Story]

29. People fear saying negative things about muslims as may incite hate, christians on the other hand

Well, that is ok, they deserve it.

[daedalus_dude]

30. Well, according to the "traditional" definition

a terrorist is someone with a political agenda who targets primarily civilians
in order to instill fear in the general population.

Tiller's murderer may or may have not been a terrorist depending on his personal motive.
His act certainly did instill fear in abortion providers, but he claims he was acting to "save babies",
which one could of course view as an excuse.

From a legal point of view it is more difficult, because every murder has some motive, but
who is to say where "politically motivated" begins. I think legally being a terrorist implies
having contact to some organized group.

Hasan does certainly not meet the traditional definition of a terrorist, because his targets where military. So he either was someone who snapped, OR was acting as a combatant of a foreign power which we are at war with, in which case
his act was an act of war. Still an illegal act, becaus IIRC the geneva convention forbids infiltration, but still no different from what, for instance, the CIA does and much different from, say, the columbine shootings.

In any case, ever since bushes "war on terror" the word terrorist is just a label to stick on your enemies in order to
have a bigger legal leverage against them. The USA have labeled people who were members of a standing army of a foreign power as terrorists for years.

Bottom line: We call Tiller a terrorist, so that label will stick with anti-abortion activists.

Calling Hasan a terrorist serves no purpose. He is Palestinian. As such people "like him" already have that label sticking on them.

[pampango]

32. We like to save "hypocrisy" accusations for "family values" repubs, so go easy on us.

:)