A Culture of Passivity

[newsjunki]

In some arenas the VT shooting hadn't been cold two days and capitalists were already dogging the dead. Pretty sad. Why not write an article on passiveness and leave the school shootings out of it? I love monday morning heroes *roll eyes*

On Monday night, Geraldo was all over Fox News saying we have to accept that, in this horrible world we live in, our “children” need to be “protected.”



Point one: They’re not “children.” The students at Virginia Tech were grown women and — if you’ll forgive the expression — men. They would be regarded as adults by any other society in the history of our planet. Granted, we live in a selectively infantilized culture where twentysomethings are “children” if they’re serving in the Third Infantry Division in Ramadi but grown-ups making rational choices if they drop to the broadloom in President Clinton’s Oval Office. Nonetheless, it’s deeply damaging to portray fit fully formed adults as children who need to be protected. We should be raising them to understand that there will be moments in life when you need to protect yourself — and, in a “horrible” world, there may come moments when you have to choose between protecting yourself or others

http://article.nationalreview.com/?q=YzEzYzQ0Y2MyZjNlNjY1ZTEzMTA0MGRmM2EyMTQ0NjY=

[saltpoint]

1. Are you standing against bad parenting or capitalism, or both?

I'm not sure what you are getting at.

A bullet doesn't know who it's aimed at. A 9-year old victim or a 109-year old victim is still a victim.

[Christian30]

2. That's a weird set of talking points...

I think the most revealing part is where he says, "if you’ll forgive the expression — men." To my mind, he's suggesting (as other right-wingers have) that since the guys didn't leap up Rambo-style and tackle Cho to the ground or catch the flying bullets in their hands, that they were a bunch of p---ies.

:(

[Burma Jones]

3. The Article argues against passivity - and I agree

The usual RW snarky bullshit pegs the writer as a Chickenhawk though, I'll bet this guy never had to face anything more dangerous than a Starbucks coffee without the protective sleeve.


capitalists?????? how 1930s of you......

[demnan]

4. In Bagdad

there are 2 or 3 VT massacres per day. And the victims of these diasters are often little children.

The VT thing is getting so much press because affluent Northern Virginians care about their young adult children, but they couldn't give a rat's ass about anyone else's. This is a smoke screen to keep us from thinking about the Iraq war.

I say unless you're going to advocate for better gun-control in Virginia (which is impossible, due to the lack of intelligence on this issue in this state, even among Democrats) let the VT thing drop.

I'm fucking sick of seeing VT all over the place on people's cars, orange ribbons on the mailboxes, for christsakes. That's all they care about (I live in Northern Virginia).

[newsjunki]

5. re

my point is he's capitalizing over this tragic event to make a valid point,but making it over a troubling event such as this. Are there ppl that stand back and do nothing while a weaker persons head is getting smashed in? Yes. Do ppl not get involved to help others out anymore? Yes. But this school shooting is/was an unlikely event that none of us can speculate and say..they shoulda did this, they shoulda did that..where were the MEN etc.

[mikeytherat]

8. As a Virginia Tech grad and a resident of Virginia, let me just tell you

that you are exactly right. The whole reaction to the VT shooting is way, way out of hand. "We're all Hokies now?" Really? When did that happen? If this had happened at, say, a Dean-Witter office or some mega-mall, would everyone be saying, "We're all Dean-Witter employees" or "We're all Mall of Americans today?" I seriously doubt it. And the orange and maroon ribbons, even on cars (with the date of the shooting on them - some enterprising capitalist is working fast!), and the "everyone dress in Tech colors" vibe seems really strange.

mikey_the_rat

[saltpoint]

6. The National Review sure is a conservative publication. n/t

[omega minimo]

12. Apparently it's all Monica's fault

:eyes:

[saltpoint]

14. Monica Lewinsky? That TART!

Hiya. Nice to see you this morning, omega minimo.

[omega minimo]

16. and she probably uses words like "children" and "protected"!!!!!!!111

:wow:

[saltpoint]

17. If those kindergarten kids had been armed in Los Angeles a few years ago,

they could have taken out that mad gunman who shot at them.

That wonderful Governor Schwartzenegger is right -- we have to stop raising girly-men!

We need a generation of shoot-em-up toddlers to show those damned terrorists who's boss!

[omega minimo]

18. TMNT

Toddler Mutant Ninja Turtles

[saltpoint]

19. LOL.

[Toots]

7. Until they have reached the age of majority (21) they are children

For some of us they will be (our) children for all their lives..

[Skittles]

30. well then I served in the military for three years as a "child"

yes INDEED

[nadinbrzezinski]

31. Correction, they are considered adults

by the legal system at 18, and the age of majority to vote is 18 as well

tehy are also considered adults for all employment purposes.

My mother will consider me her child for all her life, bless her heart, but she is not the legal system, or voting, or employment the three biggies

[KharmaTrain]

9. Corporate Media = Concern Trolls

If they can turn a phrase or exploit some other angle of a story or controversy, our "beloved" corporate media won't hesitate to pontificate and pretend to be the arbeiter of standards. Pretty sickening considering many people who run those networks have few scrupples or values other than making money. They wrap up "concern" as a means to pull people's chains...create attention the come up with some sanctimonius "remedy". It's assume they share our values, or is it the other way around...and thus everything they do is "in our interest". Yeah, right.

I turn off the "morality plays" on this story. A CNN bringing on a Franklyn Graham...who has ZERO to add to this issue other than spin...or an MSNBC interviews a guy who is all but certain it was a certain video game that caused Cho to snap...or maybe it was rap music or some other strawman. Of course, when it comes to gun control, they've already assumed we no longer want that and that there is merit to those who say the VT victims were cowards cause they weren't armed and didn't "fight back". It's speculation, projection and assumptions that have created a disconnect with many of us here, but the corporate media doesn't care...they make money this way.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

10. More "REAL MEN" mythology from the right.

Yessiree. If some "real men" had been there they would have donned their jock-straps, flexed their bulging muscles, set their granite jaws, fixed their steely eyes, and saved the womenfolk from the maddened killer.

The writer of the article has more knowledge of comic books aimed at adolescent boys than knowledge of human nature.

[treestar]

41. These things happen often enough in America that I could see

coming up with some sort of drill for a response in the unlikely event it happened to you.

But this idea that real men would have figured that out on an instant is bull. Cho could have killed several people in the period of sheer shock - that "this can't be happening to me" must take up some reaction time, and that probably explains the conservative's apparent assertion with the idea that the victims were passive. They claim they would have rushed him and knocked the gun out of his hand, but they weren't there and don't appreciate that it would be chaos and everybody would be stunned.

We all in theory could have a fire-drill type plan for this kind of attack, I suppose. But it's hard to say what it could be. Jump out the window if it's low enough? The shooter can still go the window.

I read something once that if someone is trying to shoot you, instead of just running, run in a zigzag pattern, because that makes you harder to hit.

Using a textbook as a shield? Are they thick enough to stop bullets, or at least slow down the impact? Using desks as shields?

There could be something in the group rushing the gunman. He might hit some, but even a gun can be dropped and he is outnumbered. But then everyone has to do it and it's not like there is time to organize.

[spin]

11. It takes a lot of guts to fight a madman with a gun...

but when the alternative is to die why not at least try.

If every "child" in the classrooms Cho attacked had merely thrown books, chairs and desks and then rushed him, it's quite possible lives could have been saved.

One student or professor with a gun could have also stopped Cho. But I doubt that after this incident, Virginia Tech will allow firearms on campus. Weapons, college students and beer make for a volatile mix.

But we can consult with experts on self defense and develop techniques for classes to follow in situations like Virginia Tech.

We could also make sure that people with obvious mental problems fail the background check required to purchase a handgun.

[marions ghost]

13. so everyone has to take self defense and learn how to disarm

a gunman? :silly:

I've learned self defense and you need to understand that while the average person can learn enough to give them a slightly better chance, it would not mean that most people would be able to stop this guy.

Better campus security and better gun laws would be a much more productive solution.

[spin]

20. One person can disarm a man with a gun,..

with considerable training. Fifteen to twenty people with little or no training can throw text books, chairs, tables, book bags, computers, cell phones, purses at the prep. They can yell, rush, hit, stomp, kick, scratch, bite.

Or they can be passive and die.

[saltpoint]

21. This is one of the most merciless observations of a national event I have

ever seen.

Speak the same to the parents and friends of the Blacksburg shootings and see how many limbs you have left afterward.

Unbelievable.

[spin]

23. I feel real compassion for the students

and the parents of the VT tragedy. My family’s prayers are with every person affected by this awful tragedy. No one should ever have to endure such suffering.

But we need to try finding real methods for preventing massacres like this. We have laws to stop felons and people who are a danger to themselves or others from purchasing handguns at a gun store. These laws need to be modified and fixed so that they work! Campus security should be examined and possibly enhanced. University policies also need scrutiny. Constant nonstop news coverage also needs to be questioned, as other disturbed people may be plotting to set a new record and reap the same 24/7 attention Cho received.

But in the end run, if some armed individual breaks into a classroom with the intent to murder in cold blood, simple acts may save lives. At that point gun laws have failed, and campus security is outside the classroom unable to provide immediate help. The students and teachers are on their own.

Do I blame the students for not responding at VT? Of course not. In all probability no one had ever discussed with them what to do in a situation like this.

I have two wonderful grandchildren that I pray will never find themselves in a situation like this. I would hope that the school, the parents, the police and the laws would act as a deterrent and shield them from harm. But I would also hope that school authorities would discuss with students and teachers self defense tactics that might prove effective against a lunatic.

[saltpoint]

25. Then compose a letter with constructive alternatives to the

responsible officials at Virginia Tech.

If you indeed have a plan for preventing attacks like th VT shootings, I'm sure they'll be eager to listen.

Short of that, you owe a proper respect to innocent people sacrificed in circumstances beyond their control.

[spin]

26. I found a news story

that discusses a company that trains students in techniques to use in situations like the Virginia Tech shooting.

http://articles.news.aol.com/news/_a/students-trained-t...

I seriously doubt that the officials at Virginia Tech will show much interest in this concept, as they will be too busy covering their butts after their inability to recognize Cho as a potential time bomb and their failure to lock down the campus after the first shooting. However, I will take your suggestion and write a letter to them.

I don't blame untrained students for their actions, but I do fault officials for believing that merely declaring the campus a “gun free zone” was all that was needed.

I also intend to contact my local school system and suggest they research class room self defense as an alternative to passive compliance to a crazed shooter.

My grandchildren have already been instructed in how to fight back in a classroom shooting if escape is impossible. My daughter told them that while she would be devastated if they were killed she would be very disappointed if she found they didn't resist and died without a struggle. She also explained to them that if she were caught in the same situation she would fight to the death. You could compare her to the Spartan mothers in ancient Greece who told their sons to come back from battle carrying their shields or on them.

Before you criticize her, be aware that when she was 16 she stopped an intruder entering our house, with the stated desire to rape her, by pointing a handgun at him. No shots were fired, as he realized the error of his ways as he looked down the barrel of her gun. He left in a hurry.

She lived to become the mother of my two grandsons, because of the confidence she learned from 7 years of training in judo and jujitsu under one of the best instructors in the country, and her ability to handle a firearm (which she received from me). I still thank God for the foresight that led me to drive her to judo class and the shooting range.

When we discussed this situation today she said "you always plan for the worst and hope for the best".

I replied "you can do everything right and still die, but at least you will die trying".

[saltpoint]

27. In any similar situation I believe your chance of surviving a round of

ammunition from the doorway of a classroom by a gunman with that specific weaponry on a morning in which you had no reason in all the world to expect to have to defend yourself on a moment's notice, it is my best guess that your ass would be just as dead as those 32 people.

Trained or not.

[marions ghost]

38. right !

especially when the gunman was all pumped up with adrenalin and perceived of himself as an efficient killing machine on a mission--while the unsuspecting victims were in a state of morning somnabulence. They were sitting ducks.

People who feel confident defending themselves in extreme situations have a lot of mythology going on about what others are capable of. Do we really want a country where everyone is in "fight or flight" mode all the time? Where people are even more hair-trigger? We are angry enough as it is.

[saltpoint]

40. Agree on all counts, marions ghost, and loved your second paragraph especially.

We are an angry enough nation as it is, as you accurately say, and need to ratchet down the tension and strife, not Rambo-up.

[saltpoint]

29. Here's another news story, from 1999 in Los Angeles.

A gunman's 5 victims were ages 5, 6, 8, 16, and 68.

http://www.cnn.com/US/9908/11/california.shooting.01/

How guilty are these 5 for not fighting back? Were they just too passive? Do you accuse them of one or more character flaw for not fending off the gunman?

Under your proposed training, how effective do you believe the 5 year old, say, and the 68 year old, say, would be in disarming the gunman? As opposed to how effective they'd be without your proposed training?

[pampango]

36. I also found an article about shootings at Appalachian School of Law

in Grundy, VA in 2002 and Pearl High School in Pearl, MS in 1997. In the former the gunman had killed three and wounded three, when he was confronted by two students who had retrieved guns from their cars and subdued him. In the latter instance the gunman killed two and wounded seven students before he was subdued by an assistant principal who had gotten his gun from his car.

http://freestudents.blogspot.com/2007/04/when-mass-killers-meet-armed-resistance.html

Obviously, neither of these scenarios apply directly to Virginia Tech since no students or professors had the opportunity to run to their cars and retrieve any weapons, but provide food for thought on limiting the carnage done by gunmen. (BTW I have never owned a gun and have no plans on acquiring any, so I would not be the guy who would be stepping up in a crisis to confront a gunman with a weapon of my own.)

(on edit, added link)

[treestar]

43. Not merciless, just saying we need to be aware of this and do it

Frankly, doing that would have helped a lot, but people have to be in the frame of mind to realize it's what they need to do, so no one blames the VT victims, simply stating that if we drilled these sorts of things, we might have a response rather than confusion.

It has to be organized, like a fire drill.

[saltpoint]

45. "organized, like a fire drill" ? You've got to be kidding.

[treestar]

52. I don't get what you're saying. You're saying just sit and do nothing?

Or that even suggesting that there could be something we could do is somehow "blaming the victims?"

You've got to be kidding.

[saltpoint]

59. Speak with the parents of the victims and be certain to emphasize

as you have in this thread that "Hey -- your kid would still be alive if she'd had training against this kind of thing."

Do it. Write an open letter to the VT community addressed to the families of the fallen students.

Then you watch what kind of reaction you get. I'm going easy on you here, but that isn't to say your position on this isn't ridiculous and inappropriate.

You write that open letter; fax it to Blacksburg tonight; and I will abide by the consensus of those responding.
__________

Here's the contact information for the student paper at Virginia Tech:

The Collegiate Times
Amie Steele, Editor in chief
Virginia Tech / Blacksburg, VA
[e-mail]
ph. 540 - 847 - 8339

[nadinbrzezinski]

49. DRILLED AND TRAINED MILITARY TROOPS

in the middle of a combat zone at times react in a confused manner, you expect CIVILIANS with fire drill training to do WWHAT?

Stop wartching Rambo and go join ANY servive at this point, a TOUR in a COMBAT arm will give a fucking clue how clueless you truly are

You truly have no clue what you are talking about, absolutely none

And once again you are blaming the victim

[treestar]

51. So you're saying that there is nothing anyone can do in this situation?

Telling people they are clueless is not very helpful to your argument, BTW. Just makes me think you are an unpleasant individual. And no one blamed any victim, so that's a lie, and you're resorting to lies to just be right.

The idea is that it happens a lot, come up with some type of response if it happens to you, there's nothing wrong with that. We can't do that just to what, let's just sit there and die, so that previous victims of this same thing won't be offended?

And schools do have "intruder drills," so you obviously, to give you some of your own medicine, have no clue what you're talking about.

[nadinbrzezinski]

55. I'll say it again

I have been in that situation of getting fired upon, more than once in fact... and I know that the feet per second that a bullet flies at beats me every time of the week and twice on sunday

The best you can do in that situation is to FIND A WAY OUT, which some of the young men and women at Virginia Tech did (Bravo for them))

Your other choice, assuming you choose to sacrifice your life, or at least risk is to try to stop them by barring doors like Professor Livescru did... he bought the valuable time some of those men and women needed to get the hell out of Dodge, and given the logic of how fast bullets fly, he paid for that with his life. (And he is a hero)

No training will prepare you for that, since that was an ambush and in reality you have three seconds, best case to react when something like that happens. Count to three, and tell me what will you do. I can almost bet you will freeze... flight or fight being a physiological response.

You truly need to go join a military unit and perhaps you will realize just how much you have been influenced by a media that shows the impossible most of the time


And yes, you are blaming the victims and repeating odorous statements from a right wing that likes to be a keyboard commando.

[nadinbrzezinski]

32. Hmmm having been shot at

I realize just how full of BS this particular post is full off

Have you been there... done that?

And this is a very serious question

If not the army is looking for a few good men

(yes with all their recruitment and retention problems the Marine saying applies to the army )

I am sure they can quickly enlighten you as to how full of it you are...

In MOST circumstances you will NOT have even the chance to try it...

As to books flying, comptuers, you name it... again more bullshit.

By the way, I don't have to be told what an AK sounds like, or a 9 mm, or a 38 special, or for that matter an UZI... or the 40 cal, I forgot that one

Damn it folks, the right's talking points are odorous for sevearal reasons, chiefly, they seem to think this is rambo, but will NOT, I repeat this, WILL NOT serve
when they have a chance... stop repeating their memes. There are plenty of vets roudn these parts that will gladly correct you...

[Blue_Tires]

34. great points

one of the funny growing cultural attitudes that I will always associate the Bush admin with is the chest-puffing, loud-talking, fake-assed, wannabe tough-guy that we are seeing more and more of in the younger repubs...from 9-11 to the buildup to the iraq invasion to Blacksburg, media both online and on TV continue to revert to these comic superhero mastubatory fantasies about what THEY would/should have done if they were in that situation...Our nation is being taken over by the Walter Mitty chickenhawks that talk their game but never step up...all this MMQB from the RW about what sleepy college students SHOULD HAVE DONE when a maniac comes in blazing pisses me off to no end and trivializes the victims

[nadinbrzezinski]

35. Yep...

and notice the crickets from this guy?

Though I have something to offer him... if he is in my town I will PERSONALLY drive him to the recruiter and help him fill his form

I will even advise him to sight up as either LINE infantry or Medic... after a tour he will get a clue.

Now he is not in my town, so I will advise him to google DD-4 (enlistment form) and google either US Army or US marines, though these days with the blue to green AF personnel is on the ground doing ... convoy duty.

[saltpoint]

15. Your post tilts strongly toward blaming the victims for being on the

wrong end of a bullet.

I don't find that argument terribly persuasive.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

22. What my marine "hand to hand" combat instructor advised.

"Use your feet..and run like a stripy-assed zebra".

[nadinbrzezinski]

33. What we were told

hit the ground,

Play pussom,

And if you can, GET THE HELL OUT, usually running, crawling, or any other way you will be properly motivated to use to go from cover to cover... and yes zigzag... jink, whatever you do, DO NOT run in a straght line

(The actual language, even if translated to English was far less propper for the younger set)

:blushing:

I guess regardless of language DIs are quite mouthy huh?

[pampango]

37. To some extent this reminds me of the 9/11 responses to hiackers.

When the initial hijackings occurred, the passengers didn't attack since history told that hijackers wanted to fly to Cuba and everyone got home the next day. Hardly anything to risk death to avoid.

Once those on the last plane realized that they were "dead" anyway, they attacked the hijackers. The next time a gunman attacks a classroom, the students may realize that they are dead already, if they don't do anything, and may take some action, just because of the lessons learned in the VT attack. (It is still easier for me to say this sitting at home than it will be for any student in such a scenario - and my son is starting at VT in the fall.)

[treestar]

44. Exactly. If anything changed after 911, it was that passengers will

"trust" the hijackers for even a second. They'll be on them immediately, even if they get killed in the process. It's mostly psychological, and on 911, Al Qaeda "used up" this particular method. They can't rely on passenger "trust" again. This does more to prevent it happening again than any "security measure" the government has undertaken.

[nadinbrzezinski]

50. That is why there have been hijacckings

since 9.11

Do you even read NEWS

The last one was in turkey

Oh as to the date... iirc three weeks ago

[treestar]

53. Uh, so what did the passengers do?

[nadinbrzezinski]

56. What they always do

they waited for the plane to land at Ankara, for negotiations to happen and for this to be resolved peacefully

[treestar]

42. They need to drill like that in schools, just like fire drills

At least have a plan. It happens often enough.

On college campuses, that is a bit problematic. But in theory even office buildings should have fire drills. I've never worked in an office that did it, but we should.

Some of the people who died 911 were going to the top of the WTC rather than down, because they thought they could be rescued from the top. Which showed that they didn't have fire drills in that building, as people who worked there would know not to go up rather than down in the event of fire. Frankly, buildings of that size and height should have regular fire drills. Especially when a fire can get big enough to collapse the building (if you believe the standard version of events).

[spin]

24. A company teaches student self defense...

http://articles.news.aol.com/news/_a/students-trained-to-fight-school/20061018103309990004

[saltpoint]

28. And do you have a vested personal interested in this company?

Or is it just an article you happened upon after 30 or so posts on DU?

[spin]

39. A Google search

led to the news story that I linked to.

My daughter and I were watching the news where we first seen a report about a school training students to resist attackers. I've tried to find the original story on line, but I'm not sure what news channel it was on. News is my background noise.

I have no further knowledge of the company and have no financial interest in it.

[saltpoint]

47. You're a parent. You think that a training course such as the one you cite

would have prevented the death of your daughter in a similar classroom ambush situation?

You think her throwing a cell phone or handbag at a gunman would deter him?

I find that difficult to believe.

[treestar]

46. Who cares, if it helps save lives?

It's a "vested interest" that does not conflict with anyone else's.

[saltpoint]

48. Invest in it then, treestar. Ammo up and train yourself to the gills.

The assertion that a "training" course will effectively prevent death or injury from ambush is unfounded. And a bit ridiculous and arguably cruel.

[treestar]

54. It could do some good!

I took a self defense course once. I know it's no guarantee.

You seem to advocate hopelessness.

[nadinbrzezinski]

57. Unless you PRACTICE those skills

they degrade very quickly... as in VERY QUICKLY, go take it again, and agai, and again, it is good exercise

[saltpoint]

58. Whoops. I'm a Democrat. I advocate social action. You must be

thinking of the Republicans.

The victims of the Cho incident in Blacksburg were unarmed and they were ambushed. In every respect they were innocent. In almost no realistic scenario could they have defended themselves or should they have imagined they'd need to.

Let's put it where it goes. A man with a gun killed them, within a few seconds of each other, and there was nothing they could have done.

It wasn't a fair fight. It was an ambush.

Training of any kind would have been pointless and ineffective.