Central Falls to fire every high school teacher

[FarCenter]

http://www.projo.com/education/content/central_falls_teachers.1_02-13-10_A8HEI7Q_v61.3a65218.html

01:00 AM EST on Saturday, February 13, 2010

By Jennifer D. Jordan and LINDA bORG

Journal Staff Writers

School Supt. Frances Gallo announces her plan to fire the teachers, while system trustees and staff listen.

Under threat of losing their jobs if they didn’t go along with extra work for not a lot of extra pay, the Central Falls Teachers’ Union refused Friday morning to accept a reform plan for one of the worst-performing high schools in the state.

The superintendent didn’t blink either.

After learning of the union’s position, School Supt. Frances Gallo notified the state that she was switching to an alternative she was hoping to avoid: firing the entire staff at Central Falls High School. In total, about 100 teachers, administrators and assistants will lose their jobs.

<SNIP>

---

http://www.businessinsider.com/henry-blodget-unionized-rhode-island-teachers-refuse-to-work-25-minutes-more-per-day-so-town-fires-all-of-them-2010-2

<SNIP>
The teachers at the high school make $70,000-$78,000, as compared to a median income in the town of $22,000. This exemplifies a nationwide trend in which public sector workers make far more than their private-sector counterparts (with better benefits).
<SNIP>

[Hannah Bell]

1. "The teachers at the high school make $70,000-$78,000," i call bullshit.

http://www.teacher-world.com/teacher-salary/rhode-island.html


** Salaries are from the 2006-2007 Providence Public Schools Salary Schedule


Providence Public Schools Teaching Salaries

Degree Level Step 1 Step 5 Step 10
Bachelor's Degree $35,563 $47,543 $67,033
Master's Degree $37,918 $49,898 $69,388
Doctorate Degree $38,720 $50,700 $70,190


As you can see, in 2006-2007, the only public school teachers in rhode island making $70K+ had doctorates & significant experience (Step 10). Teachers started at $35K.


"Average" teachers' salary in central falls is NO WAY $72K.

[FarCenter]

3. The same salary range is quoted in other stories, -- e.g. in the Providence Journal

http://www.projo.com/news/content/central_falls_update_02-11-10_5HHDMPV_v52.398afed.html

The average teacher’s salary at the high school ranges between $72,000 and $78,000 a year, because most are at the district’s top step, Gallo said.

Union officials have been pushing for $90 per hour and want the district to pay for more of the additional responsibilities.

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[tonysam]

65. I call bullshit on that, too.

Out here in Washoe County, Nevada, the MAXIMUM a teacher can make on the salary scale is upwards of $70K. And that's what the article says. I fucking seriously doubt most teachers are on the top end.

This is rampant age discrimination. There should be a class-action lawsuit filed against the district and superintendent.

That's 21 years plus AND a Ph.D.

They're probably adding benefits to it. People don't live on benefits.

[leftofcool]

5. Actually, some teachers do make that much

Here is Maryland, the average teaching salary for a 5th year teacher in 60k. With 10 years, some are making 75K.

[Hannah Bell]

11. "some" is not "average".

[leftofcool]

14. The highest paid teachers are on the east coast

Maryland and Pennsylvania being the highest which is why it is hard to get a teaching position here. No one wants to leave.

[Name removed]

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[leftofcool]

28. I am assuming you have been paid a teachers salary

and you know what teachers make all over the US?

[Hannah Bell]

31. I've never worked in the public schools, & what teachers make "all over the US" is irrelevant to the

question at issue, which is: What do they make in Rhode Island & in the district in the article?

They decidedly *don't* make an "average" of $72-$78K.

[leftofcool]

34. I have a friend who still teaches in RI

I will give her a ring and confirm her salary for ya.

[Hannah Bell]

36. I don't give a rip what your friend's salary is. One person's salary isn't the "average".

[tonysam]

69. A real teacher can call bullshit on this 70k-100k shit

Few teachers have 25 or 30 years in to make that kind of money, and districts like WCSD make DAMNED sure there are as few of those as possible as they try to buy out the most senior teachers during most years.

The most senior, most experienced teachers are the very teachers kids need.

[tonysam]

68. Not really. There is lots of nepotism in those districts.

People can't get hired on in the first place because those jobs are reserved for children of employees.

[H2O Man]

90. Teachers in my area

are paid well. And they earn their pay-checks. I'm not familiar with the pay scale in the state in the article, but it certainly wouldn't be shocking around here.

[LWolf]

53. I've been teaching for a couple of decades,

and have plenty of credits behind me, and I don't make that much.

Neither does anyone in my district.

Salary scales differ across the nation.

[tonysam]

67. No, they don't.

That is worse than deceptive. That's ONLY if they are at the max of their salary scale.

I didn't make anywhere NEAR that fucking much with six years in.

[lukasahero]

120. A quick query of Providence public teachers market value at salary.com doesn't bear that out

The max range in Providence, RI is $68k.

http://swz.salary.com/salarywizard/layoutscripts/swzl_salaryresults.asp?op=salswz_psr&hdOmniNarrowDesc=Non-Profit+and+Social+Services&hdOmniTotalJobsFound=10&pagefrom=selectjob&redbird=&jobfamilycode=7&joblevelcode=2&hdLocationOption=0&hdSearchByOption=0&hdKeyword=teacher&hdJobCategory=CS02&hdZipCode=02918&hdStateMetro=139&hdGeoLocation=Providence%2C+RI+02918&hdCurrentPage=1&hdViewAllRecords=0&hdSortBy=0&hdJobCode=ED03000272&hdJobTitle=Public+School+Teacher&hdNarrowDesc=Non-Profit+and+Social+Services&hdJSBoolDisplayAdvertisement=&jobcounter=1&countertype=0&totaljoblistnum=10&rdbSearchByOption=0&txtKeyword=teacher&hdAjaxDisplaySection1=1&hdAjaxDisplaySection2=0&hdAjaxKeyword=teacher&hdAjaxKeywordWithOR=%23teacher%23

[shugah]

157. which isn't that much in many areas in MD

back when i was living in texas, i would have been shocked hear teachers complain of being underpaid at 60K after 5 years. then i moved to NoVa. the cost of living is stupid high anywhere near DC.

[kickysnana]

7. Ditto.n/t

[gmoney]

2. Gawd forbid anyone make a comfortable living TEACHING.

They should do it for THE CHILDREN and live like churchmice.

Wonder how much Supernintendo Gallo makes? (I won't say "earns" in her case.)

[Tim01]

4. Holy crap! 78K per year. Is that a lot where those teachers are?

It's a freakin crapload of money here. About twice what our teachers get.

[leftofcool]

6. Sure is but In Maryland they make that much and In PA as well.

My highest salary was 35k with a Masters.

[Bunny]

78. Yes. As a rule, public school teachers in PA are exceptionally well-paid, and teaching

jobs in the public schools are very hard to get. It's very common to find teachers here making in the $70Ks. Granted, they are Master's level and have a lot of years in service, but they also make good money, especially for this area. The good ones earn every penny of it, too. No begrudging here.

[Hannah Bell]

83. this is what you call "exceptional"?

Average Teacher Salaries in Pennsylvania

Salaries are from the 2005-2006 Philadelphia School District
and reflect entry level wages.

•Average Teacher Salary (Bachelor’s Degree): $38,751
•Average Teacher Salary (Master’s Degree): $39,891
•Average Teacher Salary (PhD): $42,386


average salary in pa: $54K

http://www.indeed.com/salary/q-Teacher-l-Pennsylvania.html


** Salaries are from the 2005-2006 Philadelphia School
District 


Philadelphia School District Base Teaching Salaries 

Degree Level           Step 1       Step 6     Step 11 
Bachelor's Degree      $38,751     $51,432     $57,842 
Master's Degree        $39,891     $53,282     $65,322 
Doctorate Degree       $42,386     $56,700     $71,234 

http://www.teacher-world.com/teacher-salary/pennsylvania.html

[Quantess]

8. I know that most teachers in Oregon and California get nothing close to that much money.

[ourbluenation]

54. My DH is an 18 veteran teacher in Calif. He makes just over $50K...

we lay in bed every morning, giddy with how rich we are. :sarcasm:

[Name removed]

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[leftofcool]

16. no stats for 2008-2009?

[Hannah Bell]

21. the stats i posted show that only the *top* salaries even *approached* $72K in 2007.

do you really think that 3 years down the line, after two years of recession, somehow now the *average* salary is $72-$78K?

[FarCenter]

25. Actually, do you have any evidence that teachers salaries are affected by the recession

In most cases that I'm aware of, the salary increases have been locked in by contract. The teachers have been getting raises for the last couple of years.

[leftofcool]

27. Correct!

[Hannah Bell]

32. Incorrect!

I do. But I'd ask you the same: do you have any evidence that since 2007 teachers' salaries have
risen so dramatically that "average" pay is now $72-$78K?

"We are in a period of concession bargaining, there's no doubt about it," said Robert A. Walsh Jr., executive director of the National Education Association of Rhode Island, which represents teachers in 28 districts in the state.

"We're seeing contracts not settled or settled with concessions. Often it will be a year without any raise whatsoever, except for the step increase for teachers on the lower scale," he said.

Tim Duffy, executive director of the Rhode Island Association of School Committees, agrees. "In West Warwick and North Providence, where they've had an acute fiscal crisis on the municipal side, unions have come back to the table to make concessions," he said.

West Warwick offers one of the most dramatic examples.

Teachers agreed to have their salaries rolled back to what they were being paid in 2007 and to a freeze in pay lasting at least through June 2011. They also agreed to increase their coshare for health insurance to 15 percent. It had been 5 percent.

Providence teachers signed a new contract with no salary raise for this school year and they agreed to pay 15 percent of their health insurance premiums (as newer teachers are already doing), along with higher copays for doctor visits.

"The concession bargaining was unprecedented in that most, if not all, took place as a direct result of state aid cuts in fiscal '09 and the next year," according to Daniel L. Beardsley Jr., executive director of the Rhode Island League of Cities and Towns.

"Many public employee unions, to their credit, stepped up to the plate," he said. "But they realized that their contracts were about to expire, or they realized it was better to step up to the plate and begin the process . Some were reluctantly dragged to the table. And some refused to go to the table."

http://www.rhodeislandbusinessvotes.com/newsArticle.jsf... .



"Yes, East Providence Teachers did agree to a salary freeze for this year and may have to agree to one next year because our national and local economies are tanking. But School Committee Members must realize that salary and benefits are not the problem and reductions of such are only a part of a temporary solution. As a public we are demanding all our teachers be Highly Qualified. As a public we must recognize the cost of attracting and retaining talented, motivated, and highly skilled professionals."

http://www.rilin.state.ri.us/News/publiceducationoped.a...

[Hannah Bell]

30. I do. But I'd ask you the same: do you have any evidence that since 2007 teachers' salaries have

risen so dramatically that "average" pay is now $72-$78K?

"We are in a period of concession bargaining, there's no doubt about it," said Robert A. Walsh Jr., executive director of the National Education Association of Rhode Island, which represents teachers in 28 districts in the state.

"We're seeing contracts not settled or settled with concessions. Often it will be a year without any raise whatsoever, except for the step increase for teachers on the lower scale," he said.

Tim Duffy, executive director of the Rhode Island Association of School Committees, agrees. "In West Warwick and North Providence, where they've had an acute fiscal crisis on the municipal side, unions have come back to the table to make concessions," he said.

West Warwick offers one of the most dramatic examples.

Teachers agreed to have their salaries rolled back to what they were being paid in 2007 and to a freeze in pay lasting at least through June 2011. They also agreed to increase their coshare for health insurance to 15 percent. It had been 5 percent.

Providence teachers signed a new contract with no salary raise for this school year and they agreed to pay 15 percent of their health insurance premiums (as newer teachers are already doing), along with higher copays for doctor visits.

"The concession bargaining was unprecedented in that most, if not all, took place as a direct result of state aid cuts in fiscal '09 and the next year," according to Daniel L. Beardsley Jr., executive director of the Rhode Island League of Cities and Towns.

"Many public employee unions, to their credit, stepped up to the plate," he said. "But they realized that their contracts were about to expire, or they realized it was better to step up to the plate and begin the process . Some were reluctantly dragged to the table. And some refused to go to the table."

http://www.rhodeislandbusinessvotes.com/newsArticle.jsf?documentId=2c9e4f69233664f401233b6daaf509c6.



"Yes, East Providence Teachers did agree to a salary freeze for this year and may have to agree to one next year because our national and local economies are tanking. But School Committee Members must realize that salary and benefits are not the problem and reductions of such are only a part of a temporary solution. As a public we are demanding all our teachers be Highly Qualified. As a public we must recognize the cost of attracting and retaining talented, motivated, and highly skilled professionals."

http://www.rilin.state.ri.us/News/publiceducationoped.asp

[leftofcool]

37. East Providence does not equal Central Falls

Sorry, not all school districts are equal in pay

[Hannah Bell]

43. Show me the evidence that Central Falls pays significantly higher.

[leftofcool]

26. It is possible

Depends on their union, and what the state allows as a cap per degree and years of service. Teachers typically get a raise every year. As well, teachers get extra pay for certain duties in some states. Maryland caps the salary at 80K. Oklahoma where I taught caps it at 40K but you can also make an extra 5k a year if you will teach the yearbook class or if you take on the cheerleader duties. Teachers also get paid extra for teaching summer school so the article may be pretty close on the salary list.

[Hannah Bell]

33. They took a pay freeze in 2009. & even without it, no way would they be anywhere

near an "average" of $72-$78K.

[leftofcool]

38. Yep, pay freeze for East Providence

[Hannah Bell]

42. Show me the proof that Central Falls teachers get paid significantly higher salaries

than Providence teachers, to the tune of about $20K to make an "average" of $78K.

[woo me with science]

117. Average PA teacher's salary in 2002-2003 was $51,425 dollars.

Average PA teacher's salary in 2002-2003 was $51,425 dollars.

http://docs.google.com/viewer?a=v&q=cache:6SR20ioAiNMJ:www.aft.org/salary/2003/download/2003Table1.pdf+average+teacher+salary+pennsylvania+2002&hl=en&gl=us&pid=bl&srcid=ADGEEShCqgtep49iwTi9SLb_8wsLjSgTU6U_fMc18Y6CkMfwkL8qkaE8H0VOAbYUi5Y6cYSDF_zfp8Qderp-P2gdeQs2qONpu2Q9217gLC4iOLzytOkaP42ICcmeUaN2O3f9Azt9Y9cD&sig=AHIEtbTGXx0IxFPUZyB21jOHzVlqIhfhgA

The Pennsylvania average teacher salary for 2006-07 was $54,970 dollars.
http://www.psea.org/general.aspx?id=1118

No, the average would not be in the 70's now. Some very experienced teachers would earn in that range.

[FarCenter]

29. Central Falls, RI is not in Providence, RI

Central Falls is a separate suburb north of Providence.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Central_Falls,_Rhode_Island

Besides, those salaries are out of date.

[Hannah Bell]

35. They're less than three years "out of date" & Providence teachers took a pay freeze in 2009.

Central Falls salaries aren't going to be wildly out of synch with Providence's.

You guys are really pushing the "teachers are overpaid" bullshit, aren't you?

[leftofcool]

39. Central Falls salaries aren't going to be wildly out of synch with Providence's.

And you know this how?

[Hannah Bell]

46. let's turn it around & ask how you know they *are*?

oh, right, because some news article said so. same way some news article said autoworkers' made an "average" of $100/hour when trying to drum up public support for forced layoffs & benefit cuts.

central falls is a poor district. its per-pupil spending is mid-range.

come on, give me some evidence besides bullshit op.

[KittyWampus]

20. Yes, real estate prices in RI are very depressed. It's hurting since textile mills off-shored

[mzteris]

9. they make $70,000-$78,000 ...

and they wouldn't agree to this? :

"The conditions are adding 25 minutes to the school day, providing tutoring on a rotating schedule before and after school, eating lunch with students once a week, submitting to more rigorous evaluations, attending weekly after-school planning sessions with other teachers and participating in two weeks of training in the summer. "


Even though this "troubled school, ... has some of the lowest graduation rates and test scores in the state."


008-2009: Test scores remain a problem at Central Falls High School as only 3 percent of 11th graders are proficient in math in 2008 and 7 percent in 2009.

November 2009: Gallo begins talks with teachers on her plans to reform the high school.

Jan. 11, 2010: State Education Commissioner Deborah A. Gist names the high school as one of the state’s worst schools and in need of closure or complete overhaul. Gallo says she already has a plan ready to implement in the fall. The plan would include a longer school day, more training, more tutoring.

Feb. 1-5, 2010: Gallo and union leaders are unable to reach an agreement on pay issues for the extra work. She says the failure is forcing her to switch to a reform model that calls for firing all teachers at the high school.

Feb. 9, 2010: During a packed meeting, Gallo gives the teachers’ union more time to agree on her original plan.

Feb. 12, 2010 Talks fail; Gallo proceeds with across-the-board firing plan.

[Name removed]

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[Hannah Bell]

85. gallo = charter shill

[noamnety]

130. Gallo on charter schools:

"They would look at me and say ‘Oh well Dr. Gallo, I just got the phone call.' And then they're jumping for joy and explaining to the child that they're going to be going to the Learning Community," Gallo said. "And so, I thought, ‘Well, what causes that kind of excitement and why can't we cause that kind of excitement?'"

Gallo was impressed by what she saw, so she arranged for principals and teachers to visit too. Then, she asked school leaders to bring their reading program into her schools.

Christine Wiltshire, an instructional coach, helps Central Falls teachers learn the new method. She runs workshops for Kindergarten teachers, then follows up a few weeks later to watch the teachers in action.

(snip)

But at the end of a pilot program in Central Falls last year, 86 percent of students were reading at or above grade level, compared with less than 50 percent before the program.

http://www.wrni.org/content/charter-school-tries-remake-public-education-central-falls

[Hannah Bell]

141. She's impressed by catholic schools, too. in fact, she & her husband the deacon donate to them.

& if you buy those figures on grade-level changes, you'll buy my bridge too.

because every touted charter school "miracle" has later turned out to be bullshit.

[EmeraldCityGrl]

15. If they are making the salary the system claims, it would seem fair

to make some concessions, even if only temporarily. Most people in the private sector have taken salary cuts,
lost days or benefits. No ones bullet proof these days, except the bankers of course.

[Hannah Bell]

17. They're not.

http://www.teacher-world.com/teacher-salary/rhode-island.html


** Salaries are from the 2006-2007 Providence Public Schools
Salary Schedule 


Providence Public Schools Teaching Salaries 

Degree Level        Step 1         Step 5         Step 10 
 
Bachelor's Degree  $35,563         $47,543        $67,033 
Master's Degree    $37,918         $49,898        $69,388 
Doctorate Degree   $38,720         $50,700        $70,190 

[SallyMander]

19. OK... a third of this thread is now you posting these numbers

We get it!

[Hannah Bell]

22. the other two-thirds, however, is *you guys* saying omg! $72-$78K! they should take concessions!

which is exactly the reaction the folks who printed the phoney stats want to elicit.

[EmeraldCityGrl]

40. Do you have more current figures? These are three years old.

There could have been new contracts.

[mzteris]

152. here ya go... & from the horses mouth . . .

http://www.ntlongcber.com/cber/docs/_CF.htm


I wouldn't think anyone could argue with this source, but :sigh: they probably will . . .

[Hannah Bell]

160. No one's arguing with it; I posted it before you did. It just doesn't show "average"

salary to be $72-$78K.

Unless your definition of "average" = at the top of the salary schedule, with over 10 years tenure in the district + the equivalent of 2 masters' degrees.

[EmeraldCityGrl]

170. Thanks mzteris:) $43,486-$73,680

[Hannah Bell]

181. top pay 2009-2010 = $71.8. You're mixing three years.

[Jakes Progress]

86. They love repeating neocon propaganda.

For proof they refer to a right wing inspired article. You give them facts and they complain about it.

Way too many gullible dupes on DU who buy the right wing lies.

[Hannah Bell]

88. because they're invested in charter franchises?

[Jakes Progress]

92. Or just not bright. nt

[Hannah Bell]

122. i believe they're at least ordinarily bright. they just like charters.

some of these folks are regular posters on that issue specifically.

[fishwax]

41. It's not as though she's just randomly posting those numbers

Clearly some people don't get it :)

[SallyMander]

58. I know -- i am having a curmudgeon day

Teachers deserve to make the big bucks, no argument here. I just don't like seeing the same thing over and over in a thread.

[Hannah Bell]

60. I saw the same thing over & over: "OMG!!! $78K!!!!????"

[Hannah Bell]

121. no worries, they've been deleted, apparently too incendiary for du.

[Raineyb]

71. If people did there would be no need to repost.

:shrug:

[FarCenter]

44. How is 70 to 78 K in 2009-2010 that different from 67 to 70 K in 2006-2007?

The story says that most of the teachers are at the top step. Allowing for higher salaries in a suburban school than in Providence, and for 3 years of raises, it doesn't see out of line.

[Hannah Bell]

47. a "suburban" school? central falls is a *poor* district. 30% of the population is below the

line.

[Hannah Bell]

164. The top step is $71K 2009-2010. Not $78K. "Most" can be 51% or 99%. It's meaningless

unless you have the actual data.

[noamnety]

48. The article isn't claiming they made that in 2006.

I believe the article is referencing what they make in the 2009-2010 school year.

I also have a hunch that since this number is quoted all over the place and the issue is making national press, if the salary numbers were wildly off, the union would have put out a statement to that effect by now.

If the union isn't correcting that key figure, then I assume either the figure is accurate or the union is not following the story. I'm guessing it's the former.

[Hannah Bell]

52. just like the erroneous figures on autoworkers' wages were corrected in the media. NOT.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

23. Maybe that $70-78k includes overhead?

:shrug:

[Hannah Bell]

24. maybe it includes bennies. but that's not how most people will read it. they'll read it as

take-home pay.

[tonysam]

73. It's ALWAYS including benefits, which people don't live on

Out here in Nevada, a principal typically starts out at around 80K per year.

Somebody has told that reporter bullshit about the salaries; the average teacher doesn't make anywhere near that much anywhere in the country, not even NYC.

[noamnety]

45. That was my first thought, but after more research, I'm not sure.

Hannah Bell listed the pay scales from 4 years ago, showing that a teacher with a masters and 10 years experience was making nearly 70K back then - plus benefits.

I found info from another RI school (Woonsocket) claiming the average pay scale step has increased 7.64% annually. "In any given year, the average salary increase from one step to another is 6.5%. The result is that an actual teacher has seen nearly a 10% increase each year and a 21.5% increase in salary since the contract went into effect."

I don't like the tone of the article itself, I think the writer and site are right wing crazies, but if the numbers are right, that's a sizable increase. http://www.anchorrising.com/barnacles/008197.html

If the contract is the same at central high with the same annual pay raises, here's what would have happened since the chart hannah's quoting was published - this is for a teacher with a masters with 10 years exp. (and I can tell you nearly every teacher where I work has a masters):

2006-2007 $69,388
2007-2008 $74,592
2008-2009 $80,186
2009-2010 $86,199

It's conceivable to me that the average salary at that school is in the range of 70k.

[Hannah Bell]

50. 2006-2007 is, by my figuring, 3 years ago, not four.

woonsocket = double the population & triple the household income of central falls.

furthermore i see no documentation of the "10% yearly increases" in the link in the tea-bagger's column.

[noamnety]

57. It's a total of 4 school years, there would be three salary jumps as I documented.

Sorry if the teabagger's explanation of the 10% wasn't clear for you.

He wrote: "average pay scale step has increased 7.64%. In any given year, the average salary increase from one step to another is 6.5%. The result is that an actual teacher has seen nearly a 10% increase each year."

All teachers got an annual raise of 7.64%.
Some teachers got an additional step increase of 6.5%.
Some teachers did not get a step increase because they were already at step 10.

With some of their teachers getting just a 7.64% increase, and others getting a 14.14% increase the average for teachers in that district worked out to be a 10% increase.

[Hannah Bell]

61. I don't care about the teabagger's explanation. There's nothing in his LINK to support it.

But there *is* this, showing teachers were asked to work 40 days free in 2009:

http://www.woonsocketcall.com/content/view/95951/1/

and this contract info, showing 2% cuts:

http://www.woonsocketschools.com/SuperintendentFiles/WTG%20Contract_PartB_2008-2011.pdf.


2007-2008 = 1 year.
2008-2009 = 2 years.
2009-2010 = 3 years.

I believe this is march of 2010. Thus, we're still in the 2009-2010 FY.

3 YEARS from the 2006-2007 FY.


you're counting 2006-07 as part of your "four years".

[FarCenter]

56. It appears that Central Falls school district has been taken over by the state

Note that they negotiated a 9% copay for health insurance. Usually this means that the pay was frozen or increased.

http://www.wpri.com/dpp/news/target12_wpri_combing_contracts_20090309

That was the case in Central Falls, a state-run school district that just negotiated a new contract. Even the state, though, fell far short of the 25 percent co-share deal trumpeted by the governor.

When asked how the state can demand a 25 percent co-pay when it can’t even get it in Central Falls, Abbott responded, "Central Falls, like any district, you have to look at that last negotiation and how much movement there was."

Abbott said the latest contract more than doubles the teachers co-pay from the previous deal; nine percent now, and 15 percent three years down the road.

Timothy Duffy of the Rhode Island Association of School Committees said, "Obviously anything that saves local districts money is something that we're interested in."

Duffy also said Central Falls is an example of just how difficult a fight it will be to achieve a 25 percent co-share.

[Hannah Bell]

59. Cental Falls' co-pay is 9-15%, as you can see in the link in your article:

http://www.wpri.com/generic/target_12/combing_contracts_benefits

which also notes that step 10 compensation is $70K.

http://www.wpri.com/generic/target_12/combing_contracts_compensation


So what seems to be happening in the OP is: they're either publishing the *top* of the salary scale as an *average,* or they're adding in benefits to the average.


And the obvious reason is to give the public the impression that teachers are some kind of labor "elite" sucking off tax dollars.

The better to charterize.

[FarCenter]

63. As it said in The Providence Journal article, most of the teachers are at the top step

So they are being paid $70,130 plus $2,800 for a Masters or $3900 for a PhD.

However, in other articles, it also said that they get paid "overage" whenever there are more than 30 in a class, e.g. in gym class. There are also other stipends for other duties, which aslo serves to push the average salary up.

I'm not sure what your problem with The Providence Journal's reporting is -- it is the main newspaper in Rhode Island.

[Hannah Bell]

72. The only way they would "average" $78K is if EVERY teacher was at the top step

& had a masters/phd.

I don't give a damn whether it's the "main" paper or not. The question is whether the information is false or true.

Providence journal owned by Belo Corp, TX, $733 million in revenue:

Belo Corp. (pronounced /ˈbɛloʊ/) NYSE: BLC is a Dallas-based media company that owns 20 television stations and two regional cable television news channels. The company was previously known as A.H. Belo after one of the early owners of the company, Alfred Horatio Belo, now the name of the newspaper company spun off from Belo early in 2008. The company is the oldest continually-operated corporation in the state of Texas. Belo has its headquarters in the Belo Building in Downtown Dallas.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Belo

The NYT is supposedly the most prestigious paper in the country, but it published misleading info about "average" autoworkers' salaries.

[tonysam]

74. Projo is a right-wing paper. It endorsed McCain in 2008. n/t

[tonysam]

76. Exactly. And there are probably many new teachers at that school,

especially if it considered a "low-performing," i.e., "at-risk" school. The new teachers aren't making anywhere near that salary.

[mzteris]

131. and you're basing this statement on -

what? exactly.

You have absolutely no frickin' idea so you just pulled that little tidbit out of WHERE??

[mzteris]

142. Teacher Indicators

Teacher Indicators

• Long-term Teachers – 16% of Central Falls
teachers report being in the field of education
for more than 25 years.

• New Teachers – 1% of Central Falls teachers
report being in the field of education for less
than one year.

• Teacher Mobility – 27% of Central Falls teachers
report being in their current building for 3 years or less.

• Student Mobility – The Central Falls student
mobility rate for the 2007-2008 school year
was 27%


Sources: Rhode Island Department of Education and the 2009 Rhode Island KIDS COUNT Factbook

http://www.annenberginstitute.org/UETF/pdf/UETF_Final_Report.pdf

[Hannah Bell]

145. Which leaves 83% of CF teachers with somewhere between 1-24 years in.

For the OP to be correct, every goddamn teacher in the district has to be at maximum pay.

It's bullshit. Deliberate propaganda for the rubes.

[mzteris]

111. the PROBLEM is -

it's not saying what THEY WANT it to say!

[noamnety]

119. They might also be getting longevity pay.

I noticed that in the Woonsocket teacher contract I was browsing. They max out at step 10 - but then beyond 10 years they also get additional bonuses for longevity. Not every school does that, though. Mine doesn't.

[Hannah Bell]

124. the "longevity pay" in woonsocket is $1850 - if you have over 30 years in. there must be *lots*

of teachers fitting that profile.

longevity pay in cf is $3250 for 33+ years.

try another one.

[mzteris]

123. numbers & stuff...

http://www.wpri.com/generic/target_12/combing_contracts_compensation

The Target 12 Team contacted each school district and requested a copy of their current contract pursuant to the Access to Public Records Act. We then read and catalogued the contracts for all 36 school districts and compared the data. Finally, we spoke with officials from the RI Department of Education, the RI Federation of Teachers and the RI Association of School Committees.

The information below represents a summary of contract elements. For full details, most current contracts are posted on the website of the Rhode Island Association of School Committees.

District Name.....Contract Dates.....Step 1.....Step 10.....Longevity..........B.A.........CAGS.....Masters.....Doctorate.....National Cert.

Central Falls 9/2008 to 8/2011.....$43,486.....$70,130.....$3,250 for 33 +...$800.00.....$3,655...$2,800.00....$3,900..........$6,000



an interesting link here: http://www.stateuniversity.com/elmsed/RI/Central-Falls-Senior-High-School-Central-Falls.html especially for anyone who wants to do the math...

[Hannah Bell]

125. Thus documenting the misrepresentation in the OP: Step 10 + 33+

years experience in the district + PhD = $77,280.

The OP says the "average" for teachers there is $72-$78K. The "AVERAGE".

I guess every flipping teacher in the district has a PhD & 33 years in, right?

[noamnety]

147. Salaries are a little higher than that this year.

That's the 2008 numbers from the 2008-2011 contract.

http://www.ntlongcber.com/cber/docs/_CF.htm (scroll most of the way down to article IX for the 2009-2010 increases.)

The one I'm linking also has the additional levels where that chart's abbreviated. So you get 2800 for a masters, but it's really 3200 if it's in your field. And if you have additional credits beyond the masters like me, it's actually closer to what the PhD is making than what a plain masters earns you.

(If I'd done the stupid thesis project in my field instead of wimping out and getting the "graduate diploma" and an MA in Ed, my educational bonus would have been just 50 bucks shy of what a PhD makes there.)

[mzteris]

151. doesn't really matter though, does it?

Seems like some here will only believe what they want to believe. Facts BE DAMNED!!

Those teachers are making a whole lot of money (unlike MOST teachers in the US!). I think they should fire their freaking union for just being idiots.

[noamnety]

155. Well, you never want to fire the union. We need those.

But sheesh if my union ended up losing a 75k job for me and ANY part of that sticking process was demanding $90 bucks an hour for ANYTHING, I'd be looking to vote out the individual union reps responsible for that screwup.

I can understand starting negotiations high and bargaining down, but the $30 an hour they rejected ... if the other side bargains up to that, you jump at it. I can't wrap my head around that. Probably in part because we don't make that on days when we come in for summer.

Heck, one year I had a mandatory work day in the summer, we were all told we'd be compensated for it. I did my time. Then my compensation was a note in my mailbox saying "we're giving you 8 hours comp time." And stapled to that was a page stating that since I had maxed out my accrued personal days, I would be forfeiting my comp time.

:rofl:

I did have a chuckle at your comment about believing what we want to believe.

Here are the numbers from the paper.
They must be lies. I have no proof whatsoever, but you can't prove the article is true.
The numbers are from their own superintendent.
She must be lying. Look, she cooperated with a charter school once on some literacy training.
The salaries she claims they make track with their actual contract. Step 10, where most of them are, make over 70k even without any additional pay. But most probably make extra pay for education and other things.
So what if most are making above 70k? She said they make between 70 and 78K, and that's not 78k.


At some point it's time to back off and admit the salaries in the original article seem to be accurate. Most people would look at those salaries and - while maybe not classifying the teachers as "rich" - would recognize that they are extremely lucky to be compensated that much in their jobs. Just the fact that so many people in this thread started by being in denial about how much they make (no WAY that could be true, it's a right wing talking point to claim they make that much) should tell people that they are being compensated generously by their district.

[mzteris]

161. and of course now

the debate has stalled out - so instead of debating the real issue - there's a continuing denial of salary...

How about a discussion of what is really going on!

And how people twist every single word to try and accuse us me of being "anti-teacher"? It would be funny if it wasn't so pathetic. Of course I do still get a chuckle now and then. It's better to laugh than to cry, I suppose.

It would just be nice to be able to have a straightforward honest conversation about these issues without so much defensiveness and name-calling and assumptions going on.

[Hannah Bell]

188. lol. the debate hasn't "stalled out". your friends keep insisting average salary is $72-$78K,

even though $72K = the top step (10 years plus) in the salary schedule + $200, & $78K = the top step plus $7800.

Since 1% of teachers have less than 1 year in (=$44K), tell me how you get to that $78K "average".


Oh, well, it doesn't matter, the GOP rag said it was true.

[Hannah Bell]

185. Yes, I can see your support for teachers' unions. The facts are, teaching salaries start at $44K

& max out at $71K for 10 years'-plus experience in the district.

To get an "average" of $75K (average of article's "$72-$78K") when 1% have 1 year or less, 99% of teachers in the district have to be at the maximum base salary, plus $5000 more.

76 x 99 = 7524
1 x 44 = 44

average = $75.7K


But according to you, this is just irrelevant "random" math.

[noamnety]

191. it's random math.

Public records show the top teacher salary is 95k. You randomly use an equation with a max salary of 76k.

A realistic statistical model would show a bell curve from 44k to 95k, with the majority of the employees at a minimum of 71k (step 10).

Bell curve:

[Hannah Bell]

182. Yes, you're a veritable *font* of "facts". From charter school propaganda mills funded by walmart.

[mzteris]

153. dammit - that "index" link wasn't working

when I tried to go there! hmmph.

Good searching. (I gave your link to someone upthread for more recent figures.)

[ourbluenation]

49. As a teachers wife I'm sick of this. Comparing teachers salaries to local pop as a means to

cut their salaries is unfair. To be a teacher requires at a minimum a bachelors degree, then there's credentialing and for a lot, masters degrees. Does the local population, who according to the story make on average $22K, have the same educational foundation and training as teachers? Of course not. Should the lawyers working at the DA's office, public servants as well, have their salaries compared to the local pop. too?

[GreenPartyVoter]

55. +1000

[mcar]

66. This is absolutely right

Another teacher's wife here. I am so sick of the "trash the teachers" mentality I sometimes see here on DU and throughout the media.

Are all teachers competent? Of course not. Are all lawyers/doctors/police officers/veterinarians/journalists/younameit competent? Of course not. Yet over and over again, it's teachers who take the hit for so much - school violence, poor test scores, "high" salaries.

My husband leaves the house every day at 6:30 a.m. or earlier. Students leave at 3. He works till 5 or 6 just about every day, offering free tutoring (he's a HS math teacher) and sponsoring several school clubs. Two afternoons he works as a volunteer coach. He spends some evening and weekend hours grading tests and planning.

Summers are spent taking classes and organizing service trips. This is all for the "kingly" salary of $50K/yr after nearly 20 years of teaching.

We live in a society where someone who hits a baseball can make tens of millions of dollars; healthcare CEOs the same for preventing people from getting healthcare; lawyers and accountants charge hundreds of dollars an hour. So let's not begrudge teachers their salary - most of them work very hard to earn it.

It sounds like the school superintendent (who I bet makes way more than $70K a year) is trying to pit the union against the residents. It's a classic routine that these types pull in school districts throughout the US -- unfortunately, it usually works. And every year, we lose great teachers who have the ability to positively affect children who desperately need them.

[Robb]

51. That is the strangest article I've ever read.

...Did you all read this bit?

...A couple of parents said they were stunned by the announcement and said they blamed students, not teachers, for the high school’s consistently poor performance.

“It’s not fair,” said Angela Perez, who has a daughter at the high school. “They shouldn’t be punished because the students are lazy.”...

I'll admit I've never heard a parent say something like that.

[keep_it_real]

62. The QUESTION is not their Salary but should they put in the EXTRA time

This thread has just focused on the salary but what about the teachers putting in the extra time or being FIRED?

[FarCenter]

64. Someone paid that much, working in IT as a professional, would be expected to put in the time

Generally there would not be any overtime. As a professional, you are expected to do the job.

[Hannah Bell]

79. They also get to work less in slack times "as a professional". Do teachers?

They're asking for permanent, fixed increases in hours spent on the job. Not to mention the work teachers take home.

[FarCenter]

84. In "slack" time, an IT professional had better be learning new stuff

About half of what you know is obsolete in 5 to 10 years. So you need to spend 200 - 400 hours per year learning new technologies. On the job if you can; on your own if you must.

[Hannah Bell]

87. so do teachers. mandatory.

[DCBob]

70. This is the kind of story that makes the unions look completely out of touch with reality..

They deserve to get fired... IMO.

[Raineyb]

75. This is the kind of post that makes people look like bloody ingrates.

They'll take the weekends off, the 40 hour week and the other benefits that workers now enjoy because of unions then dare shit on them when the union does what it is supposed to: Stand up for its members.

Unless you think it's acceptable to expect extra labor for no compensation because that's what it sounds like they're doing and comparing the salaries of the teachers (who I seriously doubt on average are making as much as the claim here is) to the local population is anti-teacher, union bashing bullshit.

[DCBob]

77. In the private sector workers routinely do extra work for no compensation..

Unions have done great things for workers but this is over the top.

[Hannah Bell]

81. They are demanding a PERMANENT increase in hours worked, what don't you get?

They're not being asked to occasionally work some extra hours (teachers already do that, "routinely". They're being asked to increase their regular working hours.

[DCBob]

82. Do teachers punch a timeclock?

I thought that was only for factory workers?

[Hannah Bell]

91. oh, no, they can come & go as they please. their students & principals would never notice.

[noamnety]

95. It depends on the school culture and administration.

I had one principal who made us sign in and out and note our time each day. For a short spell, that seemed like an important thing to our administration.

Currently we don't need to do that. I think technically we're required to be there 15 minutes before class, 15 or 30 minutes after school ends - but honestly I don't know what my current contract says. Last semester first hour was my prep hour and nobody said anything on days I was running late because it didn't impact the kids. Some days teachers end up staying 16 or 17 hours, sometimes they pop out when the bell rings. Today I left early, and ended up not leaving after all because a family couldn't get their car started and I wasn't going to leave til I knew they were set. There wouldn't have been a penalty for leaving early, there wasn't a reward for staying late (though I'll make sure to let the principal know to give kudos to the substitute/occasional custodian who finally got their car started).

I like the more relaxed approach. Stay when you are needed. Be there for people, not for time clocks.

[Hannah Bell]

98. do you pop in and out of your classes, too?

[noamnety]

112. personal attack noted. (nt)

[Hannah Bell]

114. i don't see any personal attack. my point is: teachers, unlike most "professionals," CANNOT

just "pop in and out" of their classes at will, & being IN the class constitutes the majority of their job.

There was no personal attack.

[noamnety]

116. Thanks for schooling me on what it's like to be a teacher.

:D

[Hannah Bell]

129. you entered an ongoing conversation & seem determined to make it personal.

[Raineyb]

133. Only if they're a damn fool. Over the top? No right in line with what is normal.

Now YOU may be willing to work for free but to expect other people to do the same foolish self defeating crap is ridiculous.

[noamnety]

89. They were offered compensation - $30 an hour. The union demanded $90 an hour.

"Gallo said she offered to pay teachers $30 an hour for two additional weeks of training in the summer. Gallo also said she would try to find grant money to pay teachers for 90 minutes a week of after-school planning time, also at $30 an hour.

But she says she has no extra money to pay for other changes she is pushing for, including lengthening the instructional day by 25 minutes, so teachers work 8 a.m. to 3 p.m. instead of 7:50 a.m. to 2:25 p.m. She wants teachers to formalize a rotating tutoring schedule, so a teacher is available to help students for an hour before or after school, and she wants teachers to have lunch with students one day a week.

The average teacher’s salary at the high school ranges between $72,000 and $78,000 a year, because most are at the district’s top step, Gallo said."

http://globaleconomicanalysis.blogspot.com/2010/02/central-falls-rhode-island-fires-every.html

I must have overlooked it in the original linked article, I didn't realize the source of the salary figures is the school superintendent herself.

Also - I have to say lengthening their instructional day doesn't seem unreasonable. Their instructional day is from 7:50-2:25. That's REALLY short by my standards. Even with the proposed longer day, they would still be teaching a shorter day than what our school requires - and the surrounding schools in my area as well.

[Hannah Bell]

94. uh, no, they were not. super wants:

25 minutes added to the school day: 2.08 more hours/week

tutoring on a rotating schedule before and after school: extra hours, exact amount unknown

teachers eat lunch with students once a week: no extra hours, but cuts available planning/prep time

teachers attend (more) weekly after-school planning sessions: at least one extra hour/week

two (more) weeks of training in the summer


So that's at least 3 extra hours/wk, or 108 more hours for a nine-mo school year, + a cut in prep time, two more weeks of training & some unknown hours of tutoring.

Compensation offered was: $30/hr for the two weeks of additional training.

plus, super would "try" to find "grant money" to pay for 90 minutes of prep time. Yeah, good luck with that.


I.e. teachers are being asked to work over 3 mandatory extra hours a week for free.

[harkadog]

97. The Union is out of touch with their demands

Rejecting $30 a hour. 90$ a hour? That is ridiculous. I think the school will be able to get new teachers that give a damn about their students and are not greedy to the point of destroying the system.

[Hannah Bell]

99. lol. transparent. "the evil u---nion!"

[harkadog]

101. Not transparent at all

The union in this case is not serving their members.

[Hannah Bell]

103. oh, bull. the teachers are being asked to work 3 hours-plus extra every week. The $90

is compensation ONLY FOR a two-week summer training.

There's NO compensation for the extra 100-plus hours per school year.

[harkadog]

108. So you think $90 a hour is a reasonable request?

[Hannah Bell]

109. I think if they're not going to pay ANYTHING for the mandatoryextra 3-plus hours/week they're asking

teachers to put every week during the regular school year, unions should definitely bargain for all they can get on the summer training.

You do understand BARGAINING, don't you? You start high, unless you're an brown-nosing idiot.

[noamnety]

110. Yes, they "ONLY" wanted $720 a day for training. Poor things.

Over $7,200 for two weeks training. (assuming 8 hour days). That sort of excessive greed is why people aren't overly sympathetic on the other issues.

Most of the "extra" hours in the school day are what teachers generally teach anyway. Like I said above, their existing instructional day seems way below the norm - and even with the burden of the "longer" hours they're still teaching a shorter day than any high school teachers I know. At my school, with those hours we'd be considered part time.

[Hannah Bell]

113. gee, perhaps it could have something to do with trying to get compensation for the 100-plus

extra hours they're being asked to put in ON TOP OF the summer training?

& since you don't know how many hours the summer training runs, $720/d = your guesstimate on hours.


it seems DUers have never heard of the concept of "bargaining", they evidentally prefer public employees to begin contract negotiations asking for no more than gruel & bathroom breaks.

[noamnety]

115. Yes, I acknowledged it was a guesstimate on hours.

Probably a poor one, as I assumed 8 hour days. :D

[Hannah Bell]

126. For a summer training, you assume 8 hour days? The bigger point is the 3-5 added mandatory

hours every week during the school year = uncompensated, not the summer training.

[Raineyb]

156. I don't know where you're getting that from because

it says in the article that most of the responsibilities were to be uncompensated.

Gallo said she was devastated and that she had thought the union would agree to her conditions, even though she did not offer to pay the teachers more for most of the additional responsibilities.

So even if they requested 90 dollars an hour for one part of the extra work imposed, it's only making up for the larger amount of work that isn't being compensated (nor was an offer to compensate the teachers for it put forward) I'd jack up my rates too on one end if I had to make up for shit they wanted me to do for free on the other end. I don't see where the problem is with the teachers. The problem is with the superintendent.

[michreject]

104. This here says a lot

From OP.

the Central Falls Teachers’ Union refused Friday morning to accept a reform plan for one of the worst-performing high schools in the state.

[Hannah Bell]

106. "Reform plan" = working for free. How about if the superintendant cuts her own salary first.

To show her "committment," that is. To lead by example.

Since she makes $140K base pay for running a pretty small school district: 7 schools: 1 HS, 1 MS, the rest elementary or pre-elementary.

[Swamp Rat]

80. BS n/t

[MilesColtrane]

93. Solidarity!

[michreject]

107. I'll believe that solidarity shit

When all these non union built, Asian vehicles driving people sell their POS and buy an US, union built car.

[Mixopterus]

96. Heh

Judging by some of the posts in this thread it would seem that a percentage of Americans just LOVE to work long and hard for minimal compensation and get cranky when others don't want to play that game.

[Hannah Bell]

100. Oh, I think the folks who want teachers to work longer for less wouldn't take kindly to

the idea they put in an extra 3-5 hours for free.

[Mixopterus]

102. But...

Don't you understand that *PRIVATE SECTOR EFFICIENCY MEME* so the teachers should *PUBLIC SECTOR INEFFICIENCY MEME*

I *ANECDOTAL DATA POINT* so they should *PUBLIC COST/EFFICIENCY MEME*

[Hannah Bell]

105. :>) *typical neo-liberal bullshit talking points*

[Generic Brad]

118. This sounds like a failure of leadership to me

Firing every one of them is not the answer. Obviously the teachers have not been getting the support they need. I think the superintendent in this instance is the one who should be fired.

[Hannah Bell]

127. +1000

[mzteris]

128. more salary info:

Welcome to the November-December issue of Provplan’s e-newsletter. . . .

• While local wages for child-care professionals have increased slightly since 2003, the disparity between their earnings and those of public school teachers has grown significantly. The mean wage for a child-care professional in 2007 in the Providence metropolitan area was $21,050-$27,893, while the mean wage for a public school kindergarten teacher was $60,680.

http://local.provplan.org/enews/enews_novdec2008.htm

Note this was printed in 2006. Note also, Providence METROPOLITAN area which includes Central Falls.

[Hannah Bell]

132. more bullshit. the up-to-date salary info for central falls is here:

http://www.wpri.com/generic/target_12/combing_contracts_compensation

step 1 = $43K
step 10 (highest) = $70K.

If you have a Phd, 33+ years in the district, & are at step 10, you can make $77,280.

Is this the "AVERAGE" the OP speaks of?


Re kindergarten teachers v. "child-care professionals," when the bullshit article also includes a comparison of:

- hours/week worked
- years of schooling
- years of experience

you get back to me. until then, the comparison is bullshit apples v. oranges.

"Mean" in the mzteris post = 1/2 make less, 1/2 make more. It doesn't speak to how MUCH less or more, however.

[Ishoutandscream2]

134. I had one more heart to give, Hannah, and it's for you

A shame that some DUers can't recognize the anti-teacher bias in all of this. Thanks for standing up for educators.

[Hannah Bell]

136. what's surprising is to see all the "Democrats" eating it up.

One wonders what "Democrat" means these days.

Thanks for the heart.

[Ishoutandscream2]

138. Dems sharing Republicans' anti-worker views

It's very sad to see.

[Name removed]

143. Deleted message

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[noamnety]

144. Thanks for finding the pay. That's from last year, FYI.

That gave me enough search strings to find this year's, though.

2009-2010 step 10 pay is: 71,883 - within the RANGE cited as average. I emphasize range because I notice you keep referring only to the upper number of the range as the "average" which is misleading.

I suspect you included only the bonus for PhDs because you know people will dismiss that, as most teachers don't have it. But that education bonus is sliding from BAs up to Phd with many levels in between. Here's the extra added on pay:

BA + 15 $ 800
BA + 30 $ 1,100
BA + 45 $1,450
BA + 60 $1,700
MA $2,800
MA +15 $3,050
MA +30 $3,250
MA +45 $3,450
CAGS $3,650
PH.D $3,900

Almost all the teachers where I am have a masters. That would put their salary at $74,683 - above the middle of the range cited as the average.
The additional credits aren't all that uncommon either. I have the MA+45 because I did one graduate program in my field, and one in education.

That would put me at $75,333.

Then there's another $6,000 for national certification (third highest compensation for that in the state, double what many districts give for that.) Extra pay for an MA in your field. Extra pay for department chairs. Up to $9,000 per year for coaching. From $1600 to $2000 for being a club or class advisor.

And then longevity pay:

11 years of service $500
20 years of service $1,750
25 years of service $2,250
30 years of service $2,750
33 years of service $3,250

http://www.ntlongcber.com/cber/docs/_CF.htm

-------
I think we've pretty decisively proved that the range of average salaries of 70-78K is accurate if most teachers are at step 10.

[Hannah Bell]

154. No, it's not accurate, even if "most" teachers are at step 10 & have masters degrees + 45.

Say 80% "average" step 10 w/ MA + 45, salary = 75,333.

The other 20% are beginning teachers = $44,029.

*Average* pay of *all* teachers thus = $69K.

Only if 90% are at Step 10 + MA+45 will you average $72K.

To average higher, you need to add credentials.

But the story wouldn't be effective propaganda if it began "90% of teachers in the district have Masters' degrees, + 45 additional college hours, + the equivalent of a second MA (CAGS), + a national teaching credential that costs $3065 per try & "assesses" 4 portfolios & 3 hours of testing in one's subject area."


If 100% of teachers in the district have all this crap I say they deserve their lousy "average" $72K.

[noamnety]

159. Even with your made up percentages, you still are only 1K short of the range.

Included in your struggle to stay under the range:

Assumptions that all the teachers who aren't step 10 are step 1. (Really? None of them have 3 years experience? or 6?)
Assumptions that all the teachers who aren't step 10 have nothing beyond a bachelors.
Assumptions that none of the teachers at step 10 get longevity pay.
Assumptions that nobody is a department chair, and nobody is a class advisor or club advisor.


Can you just admit that the salary range was accurate? This is getting silly. And a little painful.

And confusing as hell that you are stuck on disproving what they earn - what if they do earn 70k or higher on average? Does that sound unrealistic to you? Does it make you think they are overcompensated? Why is it hard for you to believe that's what they make?

[Hannah Bell]

163. My "struggle" to stay within the range? Are you kidding? I put 80% of the

faculty at 10 years + Masters + 45, & you tell me *I'm* "struggling" to make the numbers fit *my* scenarios?

I put 8 out of ten teachers at the top of the pay schedule, & gave them a masters' degree + the equivalent of a second masters' in college credits.

I put 2 out of ten as entry-level teachers.

According to *you*, that shows my bias.

Yes, it's getting painful indeed.

[noamnety]

166. You put too many at Masters plus 45, and too many at step 1.

of course the difference between a masters and a masters plus 45 is $650, and the difference between a step 1 and, for example, a step 4 is over 4 thousand dollars. And in reality only 1% of the teachers there have just one year experience, not 20%.

Not that I noticed. ;)

[Hannah Bell]

168. 1% have LESS THAN 1 year's experience. But do 80% have 10 years' plus MA + 45?

FYI, here's the same calculation, but with 20% at step 5 + BA + 15: average = $71.1K.

[Hannah Bell]

169. Is that good enough for you, or am i still "struggling"?

[noamnety]

172. Yes, still struggling. Still using propaganda techniques as well.

We both know most don't have the MA plus 45. You throw that in there so you can point to how unrealistic it is. (Logical Fallacy: Appeal to Ridicule.)

However, that's not so different budget-wise than a person with just a masters, which is a realistic scenario.

Meanwhile, at the risk of repeating myself, you retain:

Assumptions that none of the teachers at step 10 get longevity pay.
Assumptions that nobody is a department chair, and nobody is a class advisor or club advisor.

And since I see at least one teacher had an addition 28k in his salary due to class size, I'll also add:

Assumptions that nobody receives overage costs.

----
Your Appeal to Ridicule includes a few hundred dollars here or there, and ignores teachers like the one who makes $95,526.

[Hannah Bell]

176. The MA + 45 adds $3450 to the basic step 10 compensation of $71,883.

if you think it's "nothing," fine. 100% of teachers at step 10 = "average" of $71.8K.

Extra money for extra duties or extraordinary conditions is just that: it's not "average," it's extra.

But we'll do it your way:

One teacher makes $95 K.
8 teachers make $71K.
One teacher makes $48K.

Average = $71K.

Five teachers make 95K.
Five teachers make 48K.

Average = $71K.

Two make $95.
Four make $71.
Four make $53.

Average = $68.6


If 1% of teachers are new hires, you get the "average" of $75K if the other 99% make $76K each, i.e. $5000 higher than the top step pay for all 99 of them.

It's not so easy to hit the OP's "Average $72 to $78K" unless all teachers make at or above the max, you see.

But because the newspaper that endorsed John McCain says "$72 to $78K = 'average,'" it *must* be so, mustn't it?

But it's *me* using "propaganda techniques".

Indeed.

I heard that repeating a talking point over & over = propaganda technique.


If they didn't want to pay that coach $95K they should have hired another teacher. That would have reduced "average" pay, but increased total cost to the district. It would have been better for the kids as well, but that's not really the issue, is it?

The issue is shutting down public schools, firing unionized workers, & setting up charter schools that can be easily converted to for-profit enterprises owned by stock shufflers.

[noamnety]

179. Painful. An MA +45 doesn't add that much beyond what a straight masters adds.

Perhaps you can reread my post on that, since you seem to have misread it as "A masters plus 45 doesn't add much beyond no masters at all."



You seem quite determined to "PROVE" by making up random combinations of salaries that their salaries simply CAN'T be as high as they are.

You seem convinced that random scenarios you pull out of your ass are more reliable than figures coming straight from the school's superintendent. And oddly you seem convinced that others will see the incontrovertible truth of these ass numbers.

[Hannah Bell]

183. "random" scenarios? i guess it's best to just believe every flipping thing you read in the mccain-

supporting local rag.

i'm sure the media would never distort the "facts".

As you've already conceded that 1% of teachers in the district have less than one year experience, the only way you can get to your "average" of $72-$78K is if the other 99% are at the top of the step scale + $5000 more each in credentialing credits or other additions.

math isn't "random".

[noamnety]

190. Yes, it's random and the oddest statistical analysis I've ever seen.

Indeed, math isn't "random" - and that includes statistics. Hint: Take a look at a normal bell curve shape. It isn't composed of a clump of outliers at one end and a clump of outliers at the other end, with a flat pancake in between.


As you've already conceded that 1% of teachers in the district have less than one year experience, the only way you can get to your "average" of $72-$78K is if the other 99% are at the top of the step scale + $5000 more each in credentialing credits or other additions.

The top paid teacher at their school makes over %95k.

(1 teacher at the 44k and 99 teachers at 95k doesn't average out the way you think.)

[Hannah Bell]

192. I acknowledged the top paid teacher made $95K, & included that in my calculations.

I didn't run any scenario where 99 teachers made $95K & 1 made $44K, so not sure what you're on about.

not sure why you're telling me to look at a bell curve, when:

1% of teachers have <1 year experience
17% of teachers have more than 25 years experience

hint: distribution likely = skewed

hint: all phenomenon don't distribute as a bell curve

hint: my "find x" exercises not = to "statistical analysis"

[mzteris]

167. Gym teacher made $95,625.89 in 2006

Public Payroll: Central Falls lists top salaries

CENTRAL FALLS — Police officers and firefighters dominated the top 10 list of municipal wage earners in the city, with overtime and retirement packages driving up their gross pay.

For the school district, the top wage earner was the assistant superintendent of schools, Ewa Pytowska, who has worked in Central Falls for 11 years. Pytowska, who is currently on medical leave, grossed $101,853.92 in 2006.

Pytowska’s pay was followed by Paulo J. Silva, the assistant principal of Calcutt Middle School, who grossed $99,300.50. Silva will retire in June.

Gaouette said that Silva’s salary, set at $91,686, was augmented by a reimbursement of between $6,000 and $7,000 for health benefits that he gets through his wife’s plan, and longevity pay. She said the same was the case of Gerry Manning, who at the time was an assistant principal at Central Falls High School and grossed $96,973.19 to come in number four on the list. Manning’s base pay was set at $91,730 and the rest came from reimbursements for health benefits, she said.


The Journal’s compilation looked at the total gross pay, meaning the total amount paid to the employee before taxes are taken out. It does not include the cost of benefits, but it does include base salary or wages and other “extras” such as overtime, stipends and severance packages.


Number seven on the school employee list, Calcutt Middle School gym teacher Anthony Ficocelli, who grossed $95,526.89, drew attention to what school officials refer to as overages, the money teachers get when they have more students in their class than allowed by contract.

Supt. of Schools Frances Gallo said that Ficocelli’s salary of $66,744 was augmented by $28,000 of overage costs. He also received a stipend for his work as an assistant football coach.


Gallo said that in 2006-07 the district spent more than $200,000 in overages. This year so far, the school district has spent $60,000.

http://www.projo.com/ri/centralfalls/content/NO_CENTRAL_FALLS_TOPTEN_03-26-08_DQ9GR1C_v17.349d3b3.html

[Hannah Bell]

171. Salary of $66,744 augmented by $28,000 of overage costs. Plus coaching.

The $28K he got for teaching over-crowded classes saved them hiring another full-timer At $48K plus benefits.

Wow, shocking!

For the students, that is.

[MilesColtrane]

173. I noticed that administrators salaries were included with the front line teachers.

I'm sure that skews the average salary higher.

Can't believe how many anti-union people there are here.

I'm glad I took your Commie pinko ass off of Ignore for this alone.

;)

[Hannah Bell]

180. lol.

[Hannah Bell]

135. Interesting reference, that "Business Insider" - it's full of attacks on unionized workers. seems

to be its raison d'etre.


Really a wide variety of articles they've got there:


"Unionized Rhode Island Teachers Refuse To Work 25 Minutes More Per Day, So Town Fires All Of Them"

"The Next Crisis Will Be A Tax Revolt Because Government Salaries Have Just Gotten (Relatively) Outrageous"

"Why Do Federal Workers Make Twice As Much As Private-Sector Workers?"




what does "Democrat" stand for, in *your* opinion?

[sendero]

137. Get used to this....

.... because you're going to be seeing situations like this arise more and more frequently.

Basically, those who work for cities and states are going to find, unions or not, that they are not immune to this downturn.

Cities and states revenues are down BIG, almost county wide. Unlike the Federal government, they cannot print cash to make up for declining sales and property tax revenues.

While I share some skepticism about the claims that the "average" teacher makes 74K in this town, the fact is no matter what teachers, firefighters, policemen, etc, etc, etc make they are going to be making less just like everyone else in this country, except bankers of course.

[Hannah Bell]

140. but we can "print money" for investment bankers. i wonder what the difference is?

oh, bankers are the owners of the country, that's it.

the rest of us just rent from them.

[sendero]

146. No one is more..

.. pissed off at the bankers than I am, I'm just waiting for SOMEONE to hold them accountable.

Luckily for me, I'm not holding my breath.

[DiverDave]

139. Teachers are UNDERPAID!

The hours, the bratty kids, the overbearing parents, the violence from the "kids" AND parents.
Buying supples and books with their own money...the list is endless.
And alot of people think that along with teaching them to read and write, they are the surrogate parents because the real parents can't be bothered with parenting.
I don't begrudge them a nickel, and think they should make MORE.
See my sig, I agree 100% with it.

[GiveMeFreedom]

149. Hi DiverDave

I agree with what you are saying. I do not know who or what year, but this saying has stuck with me for awhile.

"We are only borrowing this country from our children"

and as an aside, no one ever questions the superintendent about their salary or who they are in bed with, e.g. text book publishers, prep programs, college recruiters, ad infinitum.

[noamnety]

150. When I questioned a superintendent's salary in another thread

I was basically told I was being a freeper to suggest that a public school employee perhaps shouldn't be making $350,000 a year.

I guess good democrats support public employees raking in a million dollars every three years. Sometimes I forget that's who we're fighting for. :)

[Hannah Bell]

158. yes, i guess "Democrat" = supporting private charter school administators raking it in instead.

which district was that where the superintendent made $350K, btw?

[noamnety]

165. Ah, sorry, 345k. And that's with benefits, so he's probably just scraping by.

Some snippets:


Detroit Superintendent Connie Calloway makes $280,000 a year
------------------------
Thomas, who earned $334,212 a year, makes more than Fort Worth ISD Superintendent Melody Johnson, who earned $324,450, and Dallas ISD
Superintendent Michael Hinojosa, who earned $317,444, according to the 2008-2009 school year data.
-------------
In Mount Vernon, for example, the school board is searching for a replacement for its superintendent, Brenda L. Smith, who is retiring at the end of the school year to work for an international church ministry. The board has budgeted just under $317,000 in salary and benefits to hire a new superintendent, an increase of nearly $100,000, or 45 percent.
-------------
Robert J. Roelle, the Ossining superintendent, is the highest paid public school executive in Westchester, with salary and benefits worth more than $345,000 in 2007-8.
----------------
Superintendents’ pay has been rising about 6 percent to 7 percent a year for the last three years, mirroring other costs in school districts, which have also been rising more sharply than the inflation rate of 3 percent.

The median pay package for assistant superintendents rose 5.1 percent, to $208,250. And teachers’ salaries rise about 5 percent to 6 percent a year, district officials say.
-------------------

Millwood Superintendent Gloria Griffin has the distinction of working for the smallest district among the top 25 earners (in Oklahoma). Her district in northeast Oklahoma City has just 1,025 students, and she is paid a total of $167,026.

---------------------

In some cases, they are doing a good job, in some cases not. This isn't a statement on their effectiveness. But gosh, some are starting to approach what the president of the United States makes. And if it makes me a bad democrat to note that the public "servants" are making 10-20 times the average pay of the people they are supposed to be serving, so be it. I'm just pointing out that the overall structure of our education system - even without charters - is starting to look more and more like any corporate pay structure with CEOs making many times what their lowest employees make. Any time our taxes are going to the rich instead of to the poor, I get suspicious of intentions, regardless of whether the recipient has a 401k or a 403b.

[Hannah Bell]

174. some snippets

Charter executive pay: How much is too much?

The 10 charters up for renewal next month in Philadelphia are the first to be evaluated since new ground rules for executive compensation were put in place via amendments to the state’s charter law last summer. And a charter school association is encouraging schools to sign onto a new set of ethical standards.

But what level of compensation is appropriate for the top executives of charters remains a gray area.

Last year the Inquirer reported that one charter executive, Dorothy June Brown, was drawing salaries totaling more than $500,000 from three Philadelphia charters and a private school. Brown has stepped down from her position at Ad Prima Charter School, one of the charters now up for renewal. Before she left, she was earning $150,000 from that one school alone, for a reported 26-hour work week...


But two of these charter schools now pay CEO salaries of $190,000 or more, far higher than principals and regional superintendents in the School District. Until recently, one of these was being paid as a consultant through her management company, obscuring her actual earnings.

Nothing in the current crop of charters compares with last year’s Inquirer revelations of financial impropriety and nepotism at the Philadelphia Academy Charter School, where former CEOs Brien Gardiner and Kevin O’Shea were at one point earning annually $224,500 and $206,137 respectively, and hiring relatives at six-figure salaries.

http://www.thenotebook.org/april-2009/091206/charter-executive-pay-how-much-too-much



You want to cherry-pick, but it's very simple to do the same with charters. Quarter of a million dollar salaries for supers aren't *typical* of the public schools. You have a problem with a supers' salary then address *that* on its merits. It has nothing to do with public schools per se, & charterizing does *nothing* to address it.

[noamnety]

177. I've said several times I believe it's too much no matter if it's a 401k or a 403b.

It's too much for a charter operator to pocket and pretend it's not about profit.
It's too much for a traditional public school superintendent to pocket and pretend it's not about profit.

(But note, I got attacked for suggesting these salaries were too high for supervisors.)

I saw one of the superintendents making over 300k patting herself on the back for accepting a salary freeze (at a third of a million a year!) and referring to it as a selfless gesture of generosity or some such drivel. Please.

[Hannah Bell]

184. I completely agree. But as I've demonstrated & could continue to demonstrate, there are plenty of

charter school admins making the same kind of money. I'd imagine rather more, if you look at the stats per pupil.

So let's not pretend it's about *administrative* salaries, shall we?

And let's not pretend it's about "the children," either.

It's about *teachers'* salaries, teachers' benefits, & teachers *unions*, & turning public schooling into a profit center. Period, full stop, end of story.

[tonysam]

162. It sure as hell wasn't from me.

There is NO excuse for school administrators making that much.

But I think the one in Clark County makes something like 400K a year.

[noamnety]

175. I see there are some higher salaries this year.

The superintendent of Syosset Central School District is making $366,266 in base salary, plus 61,222 in benefits, plus 52,000 in "other" compensation.

There are 200 superintendents in New York State alone making over 200k in base salary (not including benefits). That's from an excel spreadsheet downloaded here: http://www.emsc.nysed.gov/mgtserv/admincomp/

[tonysam]

178. Interesting site. Thanks for linking. n/t

[Hannah Bell]

186. Too bad charter schools in NY don't have the same disclosure requirements.

Sure makes detailed comparison difficult.

I suppose that's the purpose of the opacity.

http://www.uft.org/news/issues/press/elected_officials_and_uft_call_for_changes/

“The current law allows charter schools to operate without the transparency in their finances and operations that officials and the public need to judge their success; it also permits charters to become profit centers, paying inappropriate salaries and outsize management fees. Until all these issues are addressed, we are urging the Legislature not to consider any other action on charter schools, including the potential lifting of the charter school cap.”

http://www.uft.org/news/issues/press/elected_officials_and_uft_call_for_changes/

[tonysam]

187. If they're taking taxpayer money, they damned well should be transparent. n/t

[Hannah Bell]

189. well, they're not. but their supporters don't much care.

[The Gunslinger]

148. Instead of forcing more work on people

Why don't they hire more people and put people back to work. This is the reason we may be permanently at a 10% unemployment rate. People can only work so much, and are being exploited by the "recession". Not to mention the damage it does to family life and raising children especially in two income families (which for most is a necessity now.