Do the American people deserve healthcare?

[kentuck]

After all, they put their asses on the line and go to farthest corners of the earth to protect the corporate and defense interests of this country. They don't go to fight for freedom. They fight for these corporations. Many of them don't make it back. Some that do are physically mangled and emotionally wrecked.

Companies and corporations have sucked the blood out of many working people in this country. They have not shared equally in the production of wealth. A few decades ago, the average CEO made 40 times as much as their average employee. Now it is more than 400 times as much. As wages have stagnated, the wealth has gone to the very top. They forget that it was the labor of these employees that created every dollar of that wealth.

Not only that, they have bribed our politicians into giving them huge tax breaks, even as our country drowns in debt. His secretary pays a higher tax rate than Warren Buffet. Something is wrong with this picture.

Now they stand up in Washington and flap their gums about whether we can afford or deserve health insurance for our people. But they don't hesitate to ask you to go and die for their special interest. They don't ask you to sacrifice everything so they can please their stockholders and their CEOs. They don't hesitate to freeze your pay or kick your ass out the door as soon as times get tight.

After all they have gotten from the labor of average people, they have the gall to say that the American people don't deserve the health care they need when they become sick or disabled. If there was justice in this world, we would line each and every one of them up in front of the guillotine first thing in the morning...

[RainDog]

1. If legislators think Americans don't deserve healthcare

then those legislators should not be provided with healthcare since taxpayers are funding it.

I demand that all republicans and blue dogs opposed to healthcare return the money spend on them since they've been in office.

[WCGreen]

2. I'm sick and tired of that Gas Bag almost bragging about paying at a lower taxes

at a lower rate than his secretary...

He could make that change in a second.

But that is how he got to where he is today by investing instead of earning a wage or salary...

[Toucano]

16. Come again?

Buffet himself determines the tax rate he pays?

I think you're confused.

Buffet talked about that back in 2007 to criticize the U.S. tax system.

[WCGreen]

29. If he came out more forcefully....

I don't know, it the hero worshiping that goes on around him. People think he is somekind of god because he did what every investor should do, buy what you know and hold it...

[Yurovsky]

3. Apparently only if they're rich...

or at least that's what I've been able to discern from the health care "debate".

Fuck the rich. SINGLE... PAYER... NOW!!!!

[ThomWV]

4. Kentuck, what the people deserve has nothing to do with how they govern themselves

The people simply decide that they will use their common effort for a purpose. In this case we have decided that it is a good thing if we come together to assure a minimum level of health care for each of us, and we agree that we will pay for it. And that's really it. It has nothing to do with what any of us deserve, its not a matter of rights, its just will we agree to this common effort or will we not.

[JVS]

5. We want healthcare, but the rich don't want everyone to have it.

[raccoon]

37. And some who aren't rich, but already have it, or have Medicare, don't want everyone to have it.

IME, conservatives/Republicans are like that.

[Donnachaidh]

6. the middle class is semi-skilled cannon fodder - they have more than one use

the poor are pure-d cannon fodder.

As far as the elites in this country are concerned, they WANT to keep birth control under-utilized. WHY should the *masses* stop breeding when there is always another resource somewhere on the planet to *fight* for.

That's also why they are dismantling the public school system and making college educations unaffordable to the middle class. YOU as a middle class citizen are more of a threat to THEM if you are educated, and get an inkling of just how CONTROLLED we have become in this country.

Personally, the way this bill is set up, it's yet -another- chain on the middle class cannon fodder. With the added evil of making the IRS into a collection agency for for-profit corporations. What is being offered is NOT healthcare - it's another line of credit set up in the USA Company Store.

[Lorien]

25. Spot on. nt

[Toots]

7. So Steve Jobs and Bill Gates did nothing and their employees created all their wealth?

I don't want to stand up for corporations over the average Joe but let's be realistic. Many heads of Major Corporations created that corporation, not the employees. When a customer has a problem with product or whatever they don't go to the employee to get satisfaction, they go to the boss. Most business in America is Corporate. My business is a Corporation and I have seven employees. I do not make four hundred times what my employees make, in fact at least one of my employees makes more than me..Don't paint with such a large brush.

[kentuck]

9. You are a corporation in name only.

Don't fool yourself. You are a tool.

[Toots]

10. No I take offense at that.

I incorporated my business for many reasons, mostly for liability purposes but most businesses do likewise. You are talking about something you obviously know nothing about. To call me a tool for owning a business is I think "out there". Ninty percent of all corporations in America have less than 100 employees.

[salguine]

17. Examples like yours are hardly what the OP is talking about, and I think you know that.

[Toucano]

20. Me, Me, Me!

The fact that you seriously see yourself in the OP is THE problem we face.

Thank you for demonstrating it so well.

We are not talking about your 7 employee corporation.


"When a customer has a problem with product or whatever they don't go to the employee to get satisfaction, they go to the boss."

When was the last time a customer talked to Steve Jobs about a problem with their product? Can I call him up and he'll answer the phone?

Try to be a little more genuine next time or at least less egocentric.

[FormerDittoHead]

27. Your company isn't what this thread is about. It's about the people in control of our gov't n/t

[OHdem10]

8. Democrats believe it a Right. Republicans believe it is a Privelege.

This is the fight and why we can never get anywhere.

[dynasaw]

11. The "I Got Mine" Mentality

Senators and Congressional representatives receive health care when they are sworn in:

". . .U.S. Congress. Representatives and Senators alike receive some of the best health care benefits in the country, much of it paid for with taxpayer dollars. Yet these same members seem unable - or unwilling - to extend similar protections to the rest of America.

As soon as members of Congress are sworn in, they may participate in the Federal Employees Health Benefits Program (FEHBP). The program offers an assortment of health plans from which to choose, including fee-for-service, point-of-service, and health maintenance organizations (HMOs). In addition, Congress members can also insure their spouses and their dependents.

Not only does Congress get to choose from a wide range of plans, but there’s no waiting period. Unlike many Americans who must struggle against precondition clauses or are even denied coverage because of those preconditions, Senators and Representatives are covered no matter what - effective immediately.

And here’s the best part. The government pays up to 75 percent of the premium. That government, of course, is funded by taxpayers, the same taxpayers who often cannot afford health care themselves."
http://public-healthcare-issues.suite101.com/article.cfm/health_care_for_the_us_congress

So these are people who say "I got mine" so F . . .you."

[depakid]

12. Quite a few Democrats don't think so...

or if you do get it, then you ought to lose your home and go bankrupt.

[stray cat]

13. Are they more deserving than Haitians and Africans of free, good health care?

someone has to pay

[whathehell]

23. Are they Less deserving than Canadians and Europeans?

I don't think so.

[Imajika]

14. Most Americans have health care...

..Your writing this as if grand swaths of the American public don't have health care. The majority do in fact have health care. Actually, the majority even have health care they like quite a lot.

This is precisely the problem. Our health care system does operate very well for most of the people that have health care access. Of all the people that have insurance, there are lots that are not satisfied with it, but probably still a majority whom are.

The reason the Democrats have struggled on this issue is that while virtually EVERYONE agrees that we need some sort of health care reform, the majority DO NOT want it at their expense. They DO NOT want it if it will mean they have to pay more or see a lower quality of care and less options for them personally. Basically, those that have it are generally fine with the goal of seeing more people covered, less people canceled, etc, etc, so long as none of this legislation effects them negatively - and by negatively I mean they don't even want to have to wait longer for appointments due to more people being in the system.

In many ways I think it is just a case of a majority of the HAVE'S not wanting to share with the HAVE NOT's. This majority is fine, in theory, with the idea of health care reform, but are VERY susceptible to fear tactics and ad campaigns that say HCR will in some way take away some of what they have. That is where the "rationing" boogeyman comes from. That sounds an awful lot like sharing the pie of potential medical procedures with more people. For the people that have good care, this is code for "a bunch of poor people are going to get some of the medical care you currently monopolize".

Covering the uninsured is simply not enough of a selling point. Most are insured, and what they want to know is are they getting some benefit from it. To win passage of this, it is not good enough to be doing it because we are nice people trying to give everyone a lift up, no, it has to be sold primarily at the selfish instincts of even those whom have great insurance and just want an even better deal for themselves.

[ThomWV]

15. or at least they think they do. You never know until its tested.

[Toucano]

21. +1

I have been saying this forever.

It's statistics.

The same statistics they depend on to bring profitability, bring the false sense that "everything is okay".

[kentuck]

19. And most of those with insurance have it thru their employers..

They fear if they lose their job they will not be able to afford insurance or may not be able to get it at all. The employers understand this fear and use it to manipulate their employees and their pay raises. They like it. It tends to keep wages low and profits high. It is like a huge pendulum blade swinging over the heads of the employees. If it was easy to get health insurance, many employees would walk out the door tomorrow. It is an unfair advantage for employers to have such a tool to use against the workers, in my opinion.

[Lorien]

28. I can't say that I know a single person who is happy with their access to health care

but then, most of my friends are self employed.

[spinbaby]

36. I wonder if that's still true

I have "good" corporate health insurance and have seen its cost rise dramatically in the last three years, along with co-payments increasing all over the place. I'm a good deal less happy with it than I used to be.

[KharmaTrain]

18. In A Constitutional Sense...No

There's nothing in the Constitution that says the government is responsible for much more than the national defense. States rights were supreme, the government was there to serve the states. Over the last century that role flipped...as this country grew and the federal expanded its authority. In many cases this intervention was needed...such as for interstate commerce but a rift has developed as to those who see the role of government as an agent of change vs. those who believe in states rights.

Remember, our founders were the wealthy...the Revolution was the result of a tax revolt that hurt the profits of the American elite. Business and wealth have always ranked ahead of general welfare. The problem is when the government becomes an agent for business...gaming the system in the favor of those who grease the political wheels and it makes a sham out of the free enterprise system. We've reached a tipping point in that balance...as we did with Teddy Roosevelt and then FDR...as when the economy stagnates and the middle and lower classes are financially distressed, the wealth of the rich loses its value as well.

Sadly the justice we have in this world is the best money can buy. Human nature will always have winners and losers...thsoe who will seek advantage against others. The question comes down to who keeps the winners from devouring the losers and in the long run destroys the entire infrastructure.

Cheers...

[verges]

22. Doesn't matter what they "deserve"

"Use every man to his desert, and who should 'scape whipping? Use them after your own honor and dignity: the less they deserve, the more merit is in your bounty." ---Wm. S.

[Lorien]

24. Asking you to sacrifice your life for their corporate profits is reasonable

asking them to sacrifice their corporate profits for your (and everyone else's) life is not. The system is simple: the government's job is to wage war for corporate profits, enact laws for corporate profits, and imprison Americans for corporate profits. Our job is to work for the corporations profits and, once they give us our pittance in return for our labor, we must return that payment to the corporation by being good consumers, purchasing plenty of insurance, and paying various fees and fines. As an alternative, we can fight overseas for the corporation. We can kill and die for their profits and they'll call us "heroes" in return for that sacrifice. But it's not called "heroism" when they are asked pay a small portion of their profits in taxes that could help we the workers in any way. That's seen as unfair-an act which might jeopardize our minimum wage jobs instead of denting their stock value by 0.02. Quite a system, isn't it?

[kentuck]

26. Bingo!

It's about justice. It's about morality. It's about fairness. It's about being honest with ourselves. That is what this healthcare battle is about.

[dgibby]

30. For the life of me,

I cannot understand why everyone in this country hasn't taken to the streets. European countries wouldn't put up with this shit for a nanosecond.
The passivity of the general populace is astounding.

[Toucano]

31. Me either.

Any theories as to why?

Americans are so aggressive in so many areas, but about these kinds of issues, they are sheep.

I do think Americans are much more dependent on the television, for one thing. When I watch the news from Germany or the U.K., it is still actual news.

I also think the "rugged individualism" myth of America is in part to blame. The interdependency as a community is easy to ignore when you buy into that one.

[dgibby]

34. I think it's that "USA, we're #1" thing.

We've been brainwashed to think we're the best; therefore, we can't admit the country is so screwed up. "Those things" only happen to other countries. That good old American Exceptionalism rules.

[Toucano]

35. Definitely a factor. n/t

[kenny blankenship]

32. Well they PAY for it twice over

seems like they have a good claim on it.

[Lagomorph]

33. Now that you mention it...

I haven't heard anybody suggest we bite the bullet on subsidized healthcare and send the trillion bucks to Haiti. The U.S. is soaking up a lot of credit that the rest of the world needs far more than we do.

[sam sarrha]

38. the Bottom 80% americans only own 7% of the countries financial wealth.. >Link>>

http://sociology.ucsc.edu/whorulesamerica/power/wealth.html

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=woIkIph5xcU

and they always whine about Democrats Redistributing the wealth, that is already done....


GOP is a Cargo Cult of OCD Wealth Hoarders, they believe that wealth is the Measure of gODs favor of a man, therefore it is a sin to tax a Rich Man/Corporation. the poor are being punished by gOD, therefore it is a sin to help them.

we need to spread this message and reveal the truth to the people they've conned into supporting this insanity. they think anything they do to horde more wealth is ordained by gOD, anyone they hurt deserves it..

these are the people who have taken over the GOP.. Palin is one of them
http://doggo.tripod.com/doggchrisdomin.html

[lucas_g20]

39. Yes. What a dumb question.

[LWolf]

40. All humans everywhere have a right to health care, imo. nt