Got my passport yesterday... I am getting the hell out of the country

[TwixVoy]

After a very long thought process I have decided to leave the United States.

I have sent in written requests to liquidate all of my retirement accounts. Accounts I started saving in 20 years ago. I am converting it all to Euro's and heading to Europe.

No one seems to be talking about it, but the SCOTUS has set us up for complete tea bagger (aka republican) control after this election. They have given corporations the ability to use whatever funds they see fit to buy our elections. I hate to say it - but that being the case democracy is literally just for show from this point on.

Most on DU are white and can not relate to this, but being a black man (FYI we are suffering the largest hit to our ability to find a job that pays a living wage) in a nation that is at risk of tea bagger/republican control is a frightening concept. I believe the tea baggers will start to take control starting this November. Their agenda is clearly one in which ONLY white, christian, heterosexual, males are seen as being human.

I do not intend to stick around for that day.

I still have much more planning to do, but I will be out of here before November arrives. I don't know what the hell has happened to this country, but I am not willing to spend the last years of my life fighting against treasonous racist scum bags. Now I see articles written by democrats saying they are going to sit out the election making it easier for this to happen. Fuck that.

I have spent my entire life trying to do the right thing. I never hurt anyone, donated what I could to charity, I have always supported democratic causes. But this country is full of some very sick bastards.... and the fact they seem to be INCREASING in number leads me to believe this country is going to be in for more problems than anyone (including myself) fully realize at this time.

I am convinced that likely 70% of the US population suffers from some form of mental issue. Be it extreme hatred, sociopathic tendency, being unable to participate in normal human relations, etc. We are a nation of people who only leave home to buy things/go to work and spend the rest of the time on the TV. (I never watch TV and haven't owned one in years, but I am fully aware most americans live by it) No one even knows/speaks to their neighbors. (MAYBE the one right next to them.... MAYBE)

Most people in this nation desire to "advance" themselves by acquiring more cheap plastic wal-mart crap and value their life by how much they can collect. We are the ONLY fucking nation in the world in which people have so much crap they actually need to RENT STORAGE SPACE in storage buildings to store it all.

Now all of a sudden people get healthcare and half the population acts like its the fucking end of the country??? I'm out people. I'm out.

[AnnieBW]

1. It's your choice, but

I intend to stay here and fight. Although moving to Australia would be a dream come true for me.

[elocs]

26. 35 years ago when I graduated college I had thought about emigrating to Australia.

Back then they would still reimburse for passage if you stayed so many years. Now I really regret not doing it.

[Mojeoux]

166. I bet your going to be living wonderfully, I'm jealous!

And meeting cool people and seeing the world.

For what ever reason you begin this journey, you will be an ambassador, showing people that not all Americans are bat-shit crAzy.

[roguevalley]

254. Twixvoy, let us know how you are doing. stay connected and let

us know if you come back. Its your journey and I wish you well.

[olegramps]

360. If this is to be your first experience in Europe you are in for a shock...

Black people experience virtually no discrimination throughout Europe. I wish you the best and I only wish that I could join you, but I have too many obligations that I can't abandon.

[wake.up.america]

390. There is racism in Europe. Nowhere is perfect...

But nowhere at the level I saw in the States.

[no1dolo]

402. Whoa!

"virtually no discrimination throughout Europe"? Not so. Maybe not as blatant but it's just as popular to put Blacks and other minorities on a lower rung of the ladder as it is in the USA. Where do you think our current Anglo population came from.? Trust me, I'm black and I've lived in Europe.

[Libertas1776]

410. their breakfast foods

aren't very race friendly. I mean I know we got Uncle Ben's, Aunt Jemima, and Rastus the Cream of Wheat guy, but at least we have modernized their images. Look at this character from France...

Yes, that's a black guy.

[Name removed]

405. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Sultana]

427. That's a lie!

There is racism in Europe.

[SemiCharmedQuark]

479. In England, it's mostly directed against Asians though.

[Captain Hilts]

447. Another shock when he tries to become eligible for European benefits. nt

[icee]

384. Me too. I remember that well. Stuff that seemed like a lark maybe

were the better alternatives.

[hfojvt]

167. I hear there are bad days there too

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alexander_and_the_Terrible,_Horrible,_No_Good,_Very_Bad_Day

[Name removed]

206. Deleted message

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[paulsby]

219. histrionics

all citizen united did was make the law vis a vis federal elections THE SAME as the law already was in several states for state elections, in regards to unions, corps, etc. being able to make documentaries, ads, etc.

whether or not it was a bad decision, it is NOT the end of the world.

yes, i know ... america sucks.

[laughingliberal]

289. +1000 nt

[OhioChick]

312. Well said and agreed. n/t

[Mojorabbit]

315. + 100 nt

[icee]

386. Excellent, Frank. I think you could be a real force for change, but

you need a bigger forum. But it got too big, you would be taken out.

[Name removed]

403. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

439. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[wake.up.america]

394. From a person looking in from the outside...

The USA appears to be a huge insane asylum.

Can't figure how Palin is drawing millions of supporters. The woman could not think her way out of a wet paper bag.

Racists and other idiots are taking over, I tell ya.

[TwixVoy]

454. It's fu**ing nuts

Half the nation also seems to worship a COMPLETE MORON known as Palin. That was another clue that half this country suffers some form of mental issue.

[lpbk2713]

505. It's the power of RW AM radio.

The sheepies listen to the likes of Limbaugh, Beck & Hannity as if they were listening to the voice of God.

[Captain Hilts]

448. If he thinks Europeans will welcome him, he's got a real shock coming. nt

[defendandprotect]

232. Imagine many of us have thought about leaving . . . not possible for many . . .

[Mark D.]

392. Agreed

We should stay and fight. But I do respect the view that things could actually get worse. That said, to the OP, as to the person I reply to here. America needs more like you. Those sick of the Democratic party not being left enough or working for the people enough, I still suggest what I've suggested elsewhere. Green Party. Let that be the answer the rising fundamentalist wing of the GOP. Let the Coffee Party (look it up, it does exist) be the publicity side of it. The Green Party is in 50 states, no need to found a new one. It could very well be a great way to take back elections.

To appeal to those 'sick of things' who are misguided by the right wing to think they are on their side. They are not on their side. The damned right wing powers-that-be fool them with wedge issues and play up the bigotry often found in simpler minds. We do have a chance. That said, if the GOP, thanks to the SCOTUS rule and others, regain power and eventually end up putting Jeb in office in 2012, I probably would consider leaving. Should this president end up being a Democratic blip amidst 2-3 term GOP rule (like Carter and to some degree, Clinton was). That risk does exist.

[PBS Poll-435]

2. Send us a postcard, ya hear? nt

[WilliamPitt]

3. (facepalm)

[inna]

196. (facepalm) redirected at yourself.

what a thoroughly pathetic comment for someone who normally has a way with words.

:thumbsdown:

[demwing]

229. Oh wait, Will Pit disapproves?

damn, must be a good idea then

[girl gone mad]

242. can't say the same thought didn't cross my mind.

lol.

[Mithreal]

435. +1

[izzybeans]

285. Opps wrong place.

[crazyjoe]

407. +100

[bridgit]

419. +1 (facepalm)

[BeatleBoot]

4. Way to Quit!

Don't let the door hit you in the ass.

Quitting is the worst.

Quitting is for quitters.

Enjoy the quit.

[Lost4words]

28. How quickly some condemn what they do not understand!

[peace frog]

94. You said it

and getting the hell out of Dodge is a valid move for any number of reasons. But it's easier to blindly condemn than to try to understand.

[Greyhound]

143. Could that reply have reinforced TwixVoy's argument any more eloquently?

These people...
:think:

[Individualist]

409. +1

[BeatleBoot]

456. Oh, the high stakes drama!

:rofl:


:spray:


:rofl:

[Greyhound]

491. Oh my, what a pithy response. I mean, how can you argue with logic like that?

Thanks for the kick.

[Name removed]

39. Deleted sub-thread

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[conscious evolution]

54. Tell that to Einstien

[Name removed]

126. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

141. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Bluebear]

58. Not big in the empathy department, are we?

[elocs]

182. Empathy--I have given some thought that it is one of the things which separates us from the freepers

--our ability to have empathy for others. Maybe I was wrong.

[Mithreal]

436. +1 I thought the same, but its a New Dem Party

[Greyhound]

492. Or not. n/t

[Hissyspit]

65. Is it quitting?

I don't see it as quitting. I see it as sign.

But that could just be me.

[ooglymoogly]

498. This is not quitting....this is prudence

The internet exists in Europe. Better to fight at a safe distance when ruthless thugs are involved.

[tigereye]

108. seems a little harsh since he makes some good points - maybe he's just tired

of racist creeps.... :shrug: (Although I don't agree about the SCOTUS, or that the tea-baggers will hold sway in the long run.)

[glinda]

Teabaggers and extremists will never never never give up though.

[liberation]

114. It is hard to keep with the doublethink of some of you:

Apparently, quitting is only bad when people want to stop being miserable.

When some of us demand real action for change, then quitting is all the rage for some who make all sorts of calls for passivity and "quietness."

So what is it?

[laughingliberal]

291. That's an excellent point! nt

[Mithreal]

438. +1 for the irony

[SOS]

116. If you are playing roulette in a casino

and you discover that the house has rigged the wheel so that you can never win, walking away is not quitting.
It's the intelligent choice.

[tango-tee]

326. Great response!

Thank you.

[dem mba]

337. nice quote, is that MLK Jr? - nt

[HillbillyBob]

376. Good response

We have thought about leaving too, but 2 middle age gay guys one with HIV/AIDS who has never really gotten a break. I worked hard, held down 2 or 3 jobs at a time and did side work in restorations. when I got sick I was fired for being a fag, went homeless etc while rich bastards that I had worked for made fun.

We have done what we could, bought a place with a little land to grow food and bought guns to defend ourselves from the theiving teahadist/sadist pukes etc.

30 years of mindbending rpuke puling has disgusted me and watchin dems fall all over themselves to kiss fascist ass has really soured me. I don't have $ to donate, Im not well enough to get out and protest and I don't have transportation if I could.

I am sick of being shit on, as are many others. Violent revolution is in the works brought by the saryfailure partys ginning up the socialist horseshit.
I would leave in a minuted, our savings are gone my partners job pay sucks and I know we are not nearly as badly off as a lot are but that still does not make me happy..since I have been much lower.
The teahadists that taunted the guy with Parkinsons is just one example of some of the things I have had to cope with in my life.

SO I ll stay here on my little farm and we will do our best to defend ourselves and if anyone tries to take our home yet again they will pull back bloody stumps...I have already had to defend my home (another time and place) from these fucking bigots witha shotgun when they tried to burn our house. I ll have the same kind of answer I did the last time.

[plantwomyn]

413. As I read your post

I said to myself REALY NC! Why the fuck would "2 middle age gay guys" buy a small farm in fucking NC?

And then I looked in the mirror. I looked out the window to see the back acre of my property in Indiana. My wife and I, 2 middle aged dykes, bought here because it's close to my mom's house and she will not leave her home. We are less than 5 miles south of the Michigan border, the home of Hutaree "Christian" Militia. When we heard the news, my wife listened closely to the names to see if her brother was one of those arrested.

We have a shotgun mounted near the door, loaded and half-cocked. Hi-point 9mm semi-auto carbines, a 30.06, multiple 9mm handguns and a couple of antique 22 automatic pistols donated by her mom and dad. My wife is a TSA Supervisor with a concealed carry license. She is FBI trained when she was a Sheriff in TN. In our little RED neck of the woods, we fly the rainbow flag and WE are the ones the neighbors are afraid of. The sound of a shotgun cocking was enough to run them off my land. They can't figure out if we are going to call in the Feds or just blow their fucking repug brains out. They give us a WIDE berth!

The Democratic Party leadership knows me by name. I'm the lesbian that just will not take "wait your turn" for an answer. I challenge me Congressman, Joe Donnelly, a "Bluedog" at every turn. I'm the one quoting the Constitution. I'm the one telling him that if he can't separate his church from MY state he isn't upholding his oath. Oh they just love me a Democratic Headquarters.

I'm not saying we haven't thought about "bugging out". We are ready to do that if necessary. We "fall back" positions if we need them, both north and south. If we were to leave the U.S. we would probably go to Canada.

But we too are going to fight. This is my fucking land, my state and my country. Come get some!

[debunkthelies]

430. Amen to that.....

That's the way I feel also, like the game is rigged for the very few, and the rest of us are just collateral damage; innocent victims of unmanned drones filled with guano.
Some of us unfortunately can not afford to take the escape routes, so we're stuck in "Gulag U.S.A." awaiting the outcome, hoping for the best but, not counting out the worst case scenario.:hurts:

[Mithreal]

440. Well said

[sendero]

504. Exactly....

... most folks just cannot accept that the game is in fact rigged.

[donco6]

131. Way to be a dick. n/t

[BeatleBoot]

458. Thanks!

Quitting is for quitters.

[donco6]

470. It wasn't a compliment, asshole. n/t

[harmonicon]

160. oh, yeah, - go team

Get a fucking clue. Life is not about quitting or winning or losing. It's about doing what you can to make this very brief and fragile existence as fulfilling and worthwhile as possible. Other people may not do what you do, so you ridicule them? Good fucking job. You win. Pat yourself on the back for that.

[MannyGoldstein]

170. They Said That To My Dad's Girlfriend's Family, Too!!!

When the Nazis took over Germany, her wuss of a dad said "I'm getting my Jewish family the hell out of here!!!". The rest of the family laughed and called him a quitter, and stayed put.

[Raksha]

238. I can totally relate to that! Knowing when to get the hell out is a Jewish survival trait

that goes all the way back to the Exodus.

I can relate to your Dad's girlfriend's family in a very personal way. It wasn't my parents who got the hell out of Germany in time, but the parents of someone dear to me--who would probably never have existed if they hadn't made their move in time (five months after Krystallnacht).

[WVRICK13]

343. Knowing When A Battle Can't Be Won

is a sign of intelligence. I question which group will be the new Jews. I don't think it will be African Americans because of the percentages in the population and those of us who are not bigots. It is more likely to end up being gay people because we are a very small group in relation to the population. We are already second class citizens by law and the RW thinks we are an abomination to god. I doubt our government, no matter how warped, will be part of the cleansing like in Germany. However, I can see the RW militias and emboldened pseudo religious nuts killing gays. The question is when is it time to leave? Before it gets that bad or after the killing begins. I am looking at alternate countries and making plans for a quick exodus if I see the lines of safety being crossed in a way that makes me feel threatened. I already know things are not likely to get better in our corpocracy (our democracy died 10 years ago when Bush was given the first term and was reinforced again in 2004). I think I will find a new country, buy land there within a year and then be ready to move when I retire or when common sense tells me it's time to leave.

[newspeak]

246. I was thinking the same thing

When you have intentional lies, hate spewers and repetitive propaganda on MSM--and some people are further inflamed and become more fearful, ignorant and wacko because of said loudmouth instigators, then I don't think there's anything wrong for leaving. People are intentionally being incited--there's got to be a reason.

I smell fascism in the air--Baby Doc * and his vile ilk helped set the stage, I believe.

[CoffeeCat]

281. I sometimes wonder if we've got a V for Vendetta...

...situation on the horizon. Remember the awful life depicted in that movie?

Our nation currently has all of the laws and other regulations set to turn our
nation into a V for Vendetta land. They can spy on us, deny us Habeas Corpus,
declare us an "enemy combatant" for merely speaking out against government
policy, wiretap us, steal the elections, control the media with propaganda, etc.

The trap is clearly set.

[tango-tee]

328. Manny, I was born and raised in Nuremberg, Germany.

I'm almost 58 years old and will always be filled with shame, disgust, disbelief, regret and a deep sense of obligation to prevent anything resembling such monstrosities to ever happen again. I think we have succeeded to a degree - Neo Nazi rallyes are met by counter-rallyes without fail. School classes are taken to Auschwitz and other concentration camps to be able to get a sense of the horror. None of the misery Jews endured can be undone in any way, but those of us who are German should not - and won't be able to - ever forget what has happened. We have a deep obligation to keep our eyes and ears open.

A good friend of mine was born in Tel Aviv. Her mother is the sole surviving member of a family killed at Auschwitz. My friend's mother refuses to meet me, and I can understand that. To her, I am the living, breathing reminder of what "my people" perpetrated.

There are no words, simply no words to convey what I feel.

[MannyGoldstein]

397. I Remember My First Visit To Germany, In 1984

Growing up Jewish, I'd seen films of the horrors committed by the Third Reich, and was quite prepared to see the German People as monsters.

I was bicycle camping and had little money, a situation that compelled me to meet many people in places large and small as I asked for water, directions to a restaurant, a place to pitch our tent, and so forth. I was shocked to find that the Germans I met were not the monsters I envisioned, but rather they were as nice as anyone I'd ever known in the US. I also visited Dachau, which most people don't realize is in a very nice suburb of Munich, not hidden in the woods someplace.

So I was struck by the reality that Germans are a nice a people as anyone, yet somehow most became willing accomplices to the most horrific actions.

I did some research trying to understand the seeming contradiction, including reading what is possibly my favorite book ever, "To The Bitter End" by Hans Gisevius, an account of Germany's descent into hell as he witnessed while a high-ranking Nazi official. I found out that prior to Hitler coming to power, Germany was actually the most tolerant towards Jews of any major European power. For example, Germany would allow Jews from Eastern Europe to settle, whereas Great Britain and France generally would not. Jews were Germans first and Jews second - in fact the percentage of German Jews at that time who married non-Jews was about 50%, same as it is in the US today. Jews held high positions in government, the military, business, and so forth - they were not relegated to slums as in many other countries.

And then all hell broke loose.

My conclusion was that the Germans are not somehow singularly evil. Rather, my conclusion was that what happened in Germany could happen as easily anywhere. All peoples are capable, in the right situation, of becoming monsters. It is everyone's fight, at all times, to prevent the conditions from returning which enable such horrors.

Sadly, I fear we may be losing the battle just now.

Thank you for your heartfelt post! I hope we are successful in moving humankind to a better place.

[inna]

178. what a stupid, ridiculous comment

[TheWatcher]

224. Enjoy the tryanny you so "eloquently" deny, but seem to enjoy and crave at the same time.

I keep saying "Idiocracy" was a documentary.

And some people keep proving it beyond a reasonable doubt.

Even if the door does hit him in the ass, if he's even half-right about where this country is headed, it will be soothing comfort compared to the discomfort yours will feel when the criminals that now run this country on BOTH sides get done with you.

Keep sleeping, and keep cheering on your own destruction.

People like you make me want to consider following the OP's lead.

[TheMadMonk]

233. Insanity is repeating the same action(s) over and over again, hoping...

...for a different result.

By that criteria America as a whole is most definitely certifiable.

[Jakes Progress]

307. A post that proves the OP's point.

[Orsino]

346. We laugh at people who won't evacuate in the face of floods and storms.

When one's house is on fire, eventually there comes a time to cut one's losses and flee.

How many more crimes do we want our taxes to pay for?

[bkozumplik]

420. kinda like that despair.com poster for stupidity:

Quitters never win, winners never quit, but those who never win AND never quit are idiots.

[smirkymonkey]

502. +100

:rofl:

[pattmarty]

441. If you are white, it's easy for you to say. I don't blame him a bit..............

...........Go while the gittin' is good. In 1933 a lot of people either didn't have the resources to go or simply waited too long.

[Crazy Dave]

5. Good luck friend and sorry to see you go but....

I wish I could do the same thing myself :hi:

[glinda]

155. I second that.

[mike_c]

6. good luck to you, and please keep us informed if you can....

More and more people are having this conversation, wondering, in essense, if it is 1938 yet or whether there is still time to back away from the edge. The problem, I think, is that once people's blinders come off they begin to see the bankrupt wasteland for what it is, and they realize that returning to the good old days is not only impossible, the good old days were largely an illusion anyway. The rot goes deep, and it has been festering for a long time.

[Nite Owl]

7. A few years ago

I would have said that we need to stay and fight but now I wish I could leave. I am urging my sons to think about moving abroad though.
Best of luck to you TwixVoy!
Peace

[hfojvt]

8. just a doggone minute

http://www.amazon.com/Wait-Dont-Canada-Stay-Fight/dp/1594863962

[stray cat]

9. Europe is a bit large - where is your visa for or are you a resident?

I didn't know immigration was so easy in all parts of europe. Glad you don't need a job there and are well funded because the market isn't any easier from what I hear in most parts of Europe.

[harmonicon]

165. different places have different laws

I'm looking into relocating to the UK (where I live now) semi-permanently, and for many visas they have a points based system; that is, you get x number of points for speaking English, a certain number for what degrees you have, points for how much money you've earned over the last few years, what you have in the bank... A friend of mine moved to the Czech Republic, and had to set himself up as an owner of what is basically an LLC to get the equivalent of a green card, though he now has a job with a big company and doesn't work as an independent contractor with his own company anymore. I think it's probably just different based on where you go, but it's not impossible.

[yourout]

10. While I can not comment to what it is like being a being a black man...

I hope you change your mind and keep fighting.

Pat Benatar's Invincible speaks to todays situation.

<http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=drSCtseoNxQ&feature=related>

This bloody road remains a mystery.
This sudden darkness fills the air.
What are we waiting for ?
Won't anybody help us ?
What are we waiting for ?
We can't afford to be innocent
stand up and face the enemy.
It's a do or die situation - we will be invincible.

This shattered dream you cannot justify.
We're gonna scream until we're satisfied.
What are we running for ? We've got the right to be angry.
What are we running for when there's nowhere we can run to anymore ?
We can't afford to be innocent
stand up and face the enemy.
It's a do or die situation - we will be invincible.
And with the power of conviction there is no sacrifice.
It's a do or die situation - we will be invincible.

Won't anybody help us ?
What are we running for when there's nowhere

nowhere we can run to anymore ?
We can't afford to be innocent
stand up and face the enemy.
It's a do or die situation - we will be invincible.
And with the power of conviction there is no sacrifice.
It's a do or die situation - we will be invincible.

We can't afford to be innocent
stand up and face the enemy.
It's a do or die situation - we will be invincible.
We can't afford to be innocent
stand up and face the enemy.
It's a do or die situation - we will be invincible.

[PBS Poll-435]

11. The fact that 5+ folks would rec this GBCW bullshit on a board dedicated to discussion of

The Democratic Party in the United States of America is astounding.

[Lost4words]

24. well be astounded! the Democratic party is not what it once was.

by any measure. And the fact that Rahm says we have nowhere else to go makes my blood boil.

[Jane Austin]

44. GBCW?

Google sez:

Ghostbusters West Coast
Direct Number: KL5-GBWC Or visit our Message Board. Meet the Staff ... GBWC Equipment. Click HERE to learn about the stuff we used to destroy the Sanchez ...

:)

[Cassandra]

82. Good Bye Cruel World.

[Hissyspit]

90. It's not really a GBCW post, since TV is not leaving DU. It's more

of a "I'm Moving Over There Instead of Staying Here" Post - an IMOTISH post. :)

[muriel_volestrangler]

193. Interesting that you're saying DU is 'the world', but the USA is just 'here'

This is actually a far, far more serious step than "I'm leaving DU". It's more like "Goodbye Cruel Universe" in comparison to GBCW.

[Hissyspit]

197. The U.S. is the universe?

The reasoning for saying that you'er leaving DU is like saying 'goodbye world' is that if he left DU, we would never hear from him again (for all practical purposes). But if he leaves the country but continues to post to DU, we would still be able to interact with him. DU is the world in the sense that anyone anywhere can post here.

I was joking, mainly, though. IMOTISH is fun to say. I think he was a pharaoh of the 17th dynasty, second intermediate period.

[muriel_volestrangler]

216. I'm just keeping the relative scale

If people can think of a few thousand DUers as 'the world', then 300 million Americans would be 'the universe'.

[speedcat]

317. what there's only a few thousand of us?!!

anyways, haven't we all felt what this guy is talking about at some point or another? If you live in the blue zone, doesn't it feel weird to be nearly surrounded by red throughout the rest of the country? What makes these people tick? How could you possibly, for example, want to deny anyone healthcare? I am of the mind that these people are mostly just totally ignorant and easily riled sheep, but there are plenty of evil ones too.

[Jane Austin]

103. Ah - thanks! ............... n/t

[Lost4words]

105. OK I get it now. Good Bye Cruel World, Im off to join the circus

gonna be a broken hearted clown,


you made a crying clown out of me..

do do dado daladda do do G B CW

do do dado daladda do do G B CW

Tommie Rowe?

dont mind me, the inst for the truly nervious left the rec room door open.

[liberalpress]

221. James Darren

..not Tommy Rowe

[Lost4words]

99. I dont understand what is this about?

is it a radio statn?

[tigereye]

111. aha!

:rofl: sorry, that's just a funny response.

[Lost4words]

125. your laugh is my chuckle, thanks tigereye (-; nt

[Name removed]

79. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Dr.Phool]

92. Glad you reminded me. I added another.

I've had my passport for 2 years

Funny thing is, when the chimp was preznit, and somebody mentioned leaving, you never heard a negative comment. But, then again DU has deteriorated a lot the last couple of years.

I wish I could go on the trip myself.

[Mojorabbit]

319. My pop before he died pushed me to get

my dual citizenship with GB as I was born on Bermuda. Hubby is looking to get dual citizenship with Ireland. I am not planning on leaving but if I need to down the road, I'd like options.

[NuttyFluffers]

334. oh no, there was oodles of "quitter!" accusations against those leaving during Bush 43 years.

i distinctly remember that.

however, i would also agree that DU has deteriorated considerably over the last couple of years. too little critical thinking, too much mob bullying permissiveness by the mods (IMHO). but meh, it is expected in the new great age of (corporate) Democratic power -- gotta expect a portion of the mob to try to enforce discipline by group think.

[ima_sinnic]

120. as poster above me says, thanks for the reminder--rec'd

wish I could go too

Best of luck to you, TwixVoy, and please keep posting from There

[Warren Stupidity]

215. Oh well. Perhaps you could demand that skinner kick us all off the island.

[girl gone mad]

243. Well, if it makes you mad..

I'm definitely going to recommend it.

[inna]

292. 140 recs as of now.

[Greyhound]

306. You're pretty easily astounded and you might want to re-read the DU mission statement as well.

Currently 101 recs.

Edit; 148 - 47 unrecs

[BlueJazz]

12. I can't say that I blame you. You've tried to follow all the "Humanitarian Rules" of Society..

...and still a lot of People/scumbags/Repugs think of you as a second class person.
Of course, these same folks think of all Liberals the same way.

Times HAVE changed and it's not toward the Good and fair.

Good Luck and remember that a large share of us will continue the fight.

[Gman2]

35. So have the Teafreaks done what they were aposta. Sure they suck, but the complaint is the same.

They saved, raised family, did what they were told, and feel disenfranchised. I hope they follow you.

[Kievan Rus]

13. To be brutally honest, I'm seriously considering moving to Canada or Europe

[peace frog]

97. Central America is starting to look viable

Panama is stable, prosperous, has excellent affordable health care and offers an attractive residency visa to expats.

[speedcat]

320. France

after seeing that M Moore documentary on health care, I wanna move to France!

[peace frog]

357. Bon voyage!

For me it's vaya con dios.

[peace frog]

358. Bon voyage!

For me it's vaya con dios.

[closeupready]

471. I know plenty of Americans who have done it (moved to France).

One woman I know was in her early 50's when she moved, and did it successfully. :)

I came back because it wasn't for me, but I certainly understand why someone would want to go.

[murdoch]

104. passport

My grandparents came from Europe. I can apply for dual citizenship (not recognized by US) and then work in the EU if I get it.

I'm not planning on leaving but it would be nice to have an exit plan.

[glinda]

157. If a grandparent was from Europe you can get citizenship? How does that work?

[harmonicon]

174. depends on the country and what records you have

I know that it applies for Ireland, because a friend of mine has an Irish passport which allows him to work in the EU without a work visa (though he spends most of his time in the US). I could have had a passport from an EU country because of where my great-grandfather was from, but they've since changed the law. So, if you're interested and find that it applies, I say act fast. I missed the boat so now I'm all panicky about what sort of visas I can get over the next few years to stay on in the EU.

[riderinthestorm]

186. IIRC, only 4 countries allow citizenship if a grandparent is your link, most require parents

Ireland is one of those that still accepts citizenship applications from those who had an Irish grandparent. I don't think any other EU country does.

I did this and now have an Irish passport and a US passport.

It took 2 years from start to finish to gather the relevant documents (they all have to be originals, not copies which takes some time to gather from the relevant agencies in Ireland), submit them, and get the application approved.

It was worth it for me. While I don't see myself leaving anytime soon (we're farmers and bound fairly tightly to our location), having an "out" for me and my family feels right. I initially got the citizenship in protest of GWB's invasion of Iraq. I was so seriously disgusted with our nations' warmongering and blatant oil grab, I felt strongly enough that I needed to ensure another place to reside if things became so bad. Honestly, now after watching the first 14 months of this Admin, I'm pretty discouraged at the corporatism inherent in Obama's governance. I'm becoming a bit fearful of how insidious the corporations are and with the recent SCOTUS ruling on corporate giving, my fears are intensifying about the state of the USA.

I completely understand TwixVoy's OP. I've been there. I took action. While I haven't left (yet), it's an open door for me and I welcome that. I've lived abroad for years at a time and while the initial move is a cultural jolt, once you settle in, it's all fine.

[whathehell]

188. Croatia is another which allows for grandparents. It's not in the EU yet

but is slated for membership in a couple of years, I believe.

[riderinthestorm]

204. Better get it quick then if you want it. I don't believe this will be an option in the near future

As the US health care fiasco really spirals out of control (and I believe it will. This bill doesn't do anything to address medical bankruptcies etc.), there will be that certain percentage of the population that is wise enough to figure out how to get into a country that will enable them to get the health care they need.

And that window of citizenship through a grandparent will close imho.

There are other factors that will ensure this particular avenue for citizenship is closed down sooner than later, but I think that's going to be a big one. If Croatia is going to become part of the EU, I'd get that passport now if you can. It keeps that particular option open and for me at least, I'm happy it's there.

[whathehell]

207. Thanks for the advice! n/t

[liberation]

247. Spain and Italy offer passports to grandchildren...

... during the worst part of the crisis in Argentina a few years back, a shitload of people who were grandchildren (and great grandchildren in some cases) of Spanish and Italian immigrants got their EU passports and visas to get the hell out of dodge.

The easiest country to emigrate is Canada. They have a very clean and rational "point" system. You can even check in some of their consulates for an estimate, usually if you have an advanced degree in a technical field... you are pretty much guaranteed a visa. If it weren't for the weather, and the fact that I love California and I enjoy being a pain in the ass to the conservatards over here... I would move to Vancouver in a New York minute. Then again, my better half despises cold, so not a possibility.

[riderinthestorm]

268. I have a Canadian grandfather so I inquired there too.

It's funny because my ancestry meant nothing but the fact that I'm a farmer meant that I'd be bumped to the top of the list!

A visa however is NOT the same thing as citizenship.

Funny but true story, my family on my father's side emigrated to Canada in the 1920s transforming themselves from Jewish Mulatto Jamaicans to White Protestant Scots (and doctoring their documents) on the boat from Kingston to Toronto. My grandfather joined the Canadian Air Force and became a top notch spy, earning Canada'a and Britain's highest military awards in WWII, even as his "pedigree" would have precluded him from even serving.

"Clean" and "rational" isn't as clear cut as anyone would want to admit. Do I apply for Canadian citizenship and "out" my highly decorated grandfather as a black man? And what does "mulatto" mean when we are so photogenically "white"?

[liberation]

272. A Visa allows you to enter and work

Very few countries offer straight citizenship for a non-native. Even the US would grant asylum visas, with citizenship taking a long time to achieve.

[laughingliberal]

295. Funny you should mention the Argentina crisis

I can't get it out of my head that we are right where Argentina was in the 90's.

[speedcat]

318. Canada

Thanks for the info. I live in Seattle already, so Vancouver's weather can't be that much worse. :)

Anyone ever looked at Australia? Or are they as ass-backwards as the US when it comes to national and intl policy?

[glinda]

373. Is there a good website that lists the Countries that allow claiming grandparents? Or great-grands?

All of my Great Grand-parents came from Europe and two of my Grand-parents did also.

[riderinthestorm]

399. I'm not sure if there's a website. I searched the two countries that were possibilities for me

Canada and Ireland. My other grandparents had been born in the States.

I believe you'll get the most accurate information by checking each country's citizenship requirements and comparing how you'd fare under their application process.

I chose Ireland because I could get the citizenship just by providing the paperwork. Canada would have required me to actually move and successfully farm for several years before they'd grant me citizenship, if I recall - something similar to the US process. While our operation is portable (primarily horse breeding, training, and sales with a small, commercial, organic produce side) my husband wasn't prepared to move at the time (he's still not willing to move!) so going the Ireland route worked best for us.

[whopis01]

416. Actually the US does recognize dual citizenship.

http://travel.state.gov/travel/cis_pa_tw/cis/cis_1753.html

There is no explicit mention of it in US law - but that doesn't mean it isn't recognized, it means that there are no laws regarding it.

So if you can get it, go ahead and do it. It in no way affects your US citizenship.

[Captain Hilts]

449. They do not want you. Getting work will be difficult. Health benefits almost impossible. nt

[tabatha]

14. I understand some of your angst.

I see that the trend abetted by the media is a apartheid type of attitude, if not exact, but many of the religious restrictions - "Their agenda is clearly one in which ONLY white, christian, heterosexual, males are seen as being human."

The thing that bugs me the most is your sentence:
"Now I see articles written by democrats saying they are going to sit out the election making it easier for this to happen."

Until the media and the RWers are not allowed to get away with sheer mendacity, this country is going down the tubes.

However, I do appreciate those who wish to fight - just imagine the US military power in the hands of religious nut-jobs. No-one else, nothing else, on the planet stands a chance.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

15. It would be nice to be a citizen of a non-SuperPower that doesn't quail before bogeymen.

And, actually works on behalf of it's citizens.

"Patriotism is the most foolish of passions and the passion of fools." Schopehauer

[Lil Missy]

16. Foil wrapped a little too tight??

:tinfoilhat:

[Lost4words]

19. you cant know what its like unless you have been there.

Its about the ability to earn an exhistance which is dissapearing in the USA.

[omega minimo]

52. Phony bullshit no fuckin RESPECT?

:evilfrown:

[Individualist]

411. Snark a bit over the top?

[Lost4words]

17. I hear you, when you get set up would you call me?

long term unemployed white guy. I think you are correct about the next election I dont understand why our current administration isn't shutting them down. It stinks of collusion between the parties toward globalization and/or the Industrial Military Complex their ultimate superiors.

There is no value for human life where profits are concerned.

[Delphinus]

118. Ooh,

your second, one-line paragraph says it all ... there is no value for human life where profits are concerned.

[glinda]

158. Yes. It is either collusion or big fucking mistake not to shut them down.

[mrs_p]

18. good luck to you

we are pretty certain we will move up to BC as soon as i complete my residency (that's 7 years away). as we are from seattle, it's not such a far move. i'm hoping canada will have a need for two more scientists.

[eridani]

325. You are young enough and will get points for your line of work

I'm OK on the self-supporting criteria, but get too many points deducted for age.

[Toasterlad]

20. Good For You. Wish I Could Afford To Leave.

I'd be in Canada tomorrow if I could afford it.

[Imajika]

21. What makes you think Europe won't go rightwing?

"I am converting it all to Euro's and heading to Europe."

What if Europe takes a sharp turn right? Could very well have the right running Britain after the next election (the Tories look set to win), far right parties are surging on anti-immigration platforms all over the EU.

You could run away from a decidedly Democratic United States (Democratic run Congress and President) only to find yourself in a rightwing Europe.

Europe is not some utopia you know?

"We are the ONLY fucking nation in the world in which people have so much crap they actually need to RENT STORAGE SPACE in storage buildings to store it all."

So is this really just a post to rant about how much you don't like the American people? How they are too shallow to appreciate and support the things you want them to like? Get a grip man.

"Now all of a sudden people get healthcare and half the population acts like its the fucking end of the country??? I'm out people. I'm out."

Most people already had healthcare. About half the population opposed this legislation, so it is no surprise about half the population oppose it now after it has passed. So your mad that half the American people don't support universal healthcare and think it is some rightwing surge causing this? Why do you think its been so hard to pass all these years? This is nothing new or surprising, yet we finally got it done.

I think you'll reconsider and not run away to Europe.

[liberation]

124. Maybe the fact you don't know what the f*ck you are talking about?

When we get a single damned unabashed socialist in any top elected position (or any elected position for that matter) in this country, then you can go around making "what ifs" about the EU. And no, Sanders does not count... he is an independent and has to put all sorts of qualifiers to his "socialist." The last time I checked almost half of the members of the European parliament belong to the socialist party, i.e. the actual unapologetic, uncompromising, non-milquetoast, pro-labor left. In fact, even the Communist party has significant representation in many EU member states. And if that is not their thing, lefty Europeans can vote for Green, which in Germany for example were part of the governing coalition a couple of legislatures ago.


You sound like a homeless with just a single crumb to eat saying how good he has it, because the 5 star restaurant all those fat rich people are eating could run out of food before closing time.

[tango-tee]

333. Chiming in from Germany,

where the venerable Social Democrats have morphed into something so pathetic they can barely be distinguished from the Christian Democrats (the conservative corporation party) any longer. But not only do we have the Greens, we now also have the Left Party, which has made great gains in the last elections.

America needs to have a viable Third Party.

[Mark D.]

398. Greens

Glad you mentioned that. We have the Green Party here. As much as Nader hurt Gore's chances, and while Gore wouldn't have been as good a prez as Nader, he would have been better than Bush, the Greens are worth mentioning. They are in 50 states, they are to the left of the Dems and further, they are more grass roots. No need for a Dean-type of small folk contribution revolution. They've been doing that for years. While I hope for this, I can honestly say, I really doubt there will ever be a viable 3rd party on the left. If anything, a radical more right type party may emerge, if the Tea folks don't merge with the GOP totally first. If anything it would be good if that 3rd party on the right emerged, and that's why the GOP wants to absorb them. It would split the GOP vote. Ordinarily I would be celebrating it, but the 'centrist' mantra of the Dems these days is far too corporate for me. The new boss being an awful lot like the old boss. We should have hope, but must realize a better funded, more active corporate elite are at work and they never quit. They've never seen more hope for them an America, with the SCOTUS decision and a health care bill, that while it is with merits, will indeed benefit corporations more than people. Further, it has the most visible 'sick of it all' group (tea baggers) rallying in FAVOR of corporate big brothers, out of fear of a government big brother.

[treestar]

372. You can disagree without being so nasty

Go have another cup of coffee.

[mr blur]

140. Well, we'd have a long, long way to go before-

we got anywhere near as right wing as the US. By European standards, You people don't even have a Left Wing, just varying degrees of Right. And, of course, the Christian Taliban.

[whathehell]

152. "You people"?

[mistertrickster]

251. Europe going right wing is very unlikely, IMHO. France just told Sarkozy to take a hike.

Germany and Ireland have very strong economies and they're ignoring all the libertarian economists that Fox News loves . . .

[liberation]

264. There is also the "tiny" detail that most of the right wing in Europe are democristians

or similar persuasions, which are for all intents and purposes slightly to the left of the majority of the political platform of the Dem party.

We don't have any major left wing party in any of our branches of the federal government. NONE. Talk about the American with the five ton reinforced steel beam in his eye, worrying about the spec in the EU's eye.

[speedcat]

321. nice!

nice response!

Isn't it bizarre that the US is so right-wing? What is the cause of that? I mean looking at some other countries, it does appear that the uneducated side of the majority left can be just as knee-jerk as some of the right-wingers here, but at least they're on the left. Where did we go wrong?

[mistertrickster]

431. Good point. nt

[muriel_volestrangler]

414. On the other hand, Berlusconi and allies just made gains in regional elections

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2010/mar/30/italy-elections-far-right-berlusconi

Ireland's economy isn't so great these days: http://www.google.com/hostednews/afp/article/ALeqM5gOW057t98HcaHgm02IxIvNbAFA1Q

[laughingliberal]

298. They could but it will take quite a while to get where we are, now

We've got 30 years of supply side economics with the simultaneous dismantling of the social safety net that never was as strong as theirs. People would have a good chance of surviving a long time there before they see a country with the utter disregard for its people we have here.

[Prophet 451]

442. Not the same thing AT ALL

The Tories do look set to win the next election here but the Tories are centre-right by British standards (meaning, they'd be considered centre-left in the US), not the same sort of ultraright, borderline fascists that currently comprise the GOP.

[Go2Peace]

461. They have PALIMENTS. Much harder for one party to gain control

Parlimentary government is evolutionarily superior for democracy. It allows people to form new parties and enter the power structure.

[Name removed]

22. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Lost4words]

34. what is he.... Your wife? listen to yourself!.......

and dont come back,

[safeinOhio]

50. Someone has been bitchy all day.

:grr:

[malaise]

23. Where are you going?

Let me hear your plan.

[Name removed]

25. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[elocs]

36. Welcome to DU, but you talk pretty big for someone with just a single post right now.

Myself I will not judge anyone for the personal decisions they choose to make, especially since I know nothing what it is like to be a black American. I would also hesitate to stand in judgment on another DUer's statements and claim they are random and made up.

[inna]

49. Who's "we"? Speak for yourself.

And hopefully enjoy your brief stay here. :hi:

[Bluebear]

61. *TWO* posts in 5 years and you waste one on this?

[ima_sinnic]

122. looks like a nerve was struck

maybe the uber-nationalist nerve

[conscious evolution]

75. sniffsniff

do I smell socks?

[Hekate]

107. Under that bridge be stagnant water

similar odor

[Dead_Parrot]

27. Good luck, TV

Hope you land on your feet.:)

[yodoobo]

29. Just a word to the wise

They have storage lockers in Europe too.

[jberryhill]

192. Seriously

Saw a huge one in Guildford the other day, just outside of London.

[Prophet 451]

443. Mostly used by small businessmen

We have a pretty large one down the road from me. I'm friendly with the manager and apparently, the majority of the lockers are rented by small businessmen and a few by people in the process of moving house.

[yodoobo]

444. yup. Pretty much how they are used in the US

people moving and small business.

Not really sure why the OP decided to use this strawman.

[Martin Eden]

30. Why not wait for the November election results?

It should be a pretty good indicator.

If you prefer to live in Europe for a number of other reasons, that's fine. I just think your decision may be a little premature if it's based mostly on political events that have not yet transpired.

After all, the Dems currently control Congress and the White House -- with a president who has your back more than most (if not all) of his predecessors.

[MineralMan]

31. OK. We'll keep the light on for you...

[struggle4progress]

32. Best wishes. I'm not gonna go anywhere. I've met these loonies before and don't think they can win

[arcadian]

33. Good idea. USA = Germany 1933 right now

[peace frog]

101. Yep.

They thought they were free, too.

[proteus_lives]

128. Never even opened a real history book huh?

[Codeine]

130. Reading is hard.

Hyperbole's a breeze.

[proteus_lives]

136. Isn't though?

These "run rabbit, run" threads are always hilarious.

[Cetacea]

476. Ok, Mr. I know what it's like being a black man in america

[proteus_lives]

486. What's that mean?

You think he'll when a non-racist part of the world? Or Europe doesn't have racism?

Besides, his ignorance has nothing to do with race.

[arcadian]

236. You haven't? That explains alot.

You should get cracking.

[proteus_lives]

245. I could send you a list of reading material to work on.

Real history books. (Don't get scared.)

The local library is your friend.

If you're willing to ask for a little help, you can really put a dent in your ignorance problem.

[arcadian]

250. Why are you

being an asshole? seriously?

[proteus_lives]

271. Sorry but inane nazi comparisons drive me up the wall.

Whither it's teabaggers calling Obama Hitler or DUers wetting themselves over the teabaggers.

It's ignorant.

[arcadian]

273. So you don't see an ever rightward shift in this country's politics?

Are you blind? The comparison is apt

[proteus_lives]

278. You're just mad because I called you on a stupid post.

I'm aware of the shifts this country goes through.

But if you the state of the nation right now even slightly compares to 1933 Germany, then you're the one who needs his eyesight checked.

Seriously man, educate yourself. Your local library has a history section.

[MUAD_DIB]

300. Germany had hyperinflation...seriously bad compared to anything we have today.

[proteus_lives]

302. Seriously.

It's the height of folly to compare the U.S. to 1933 Germany.

[Papa Boule]

359. We're just an economic collapse away from it

And we are headed for one.

The OP's concerns are well-founded.

[Cetacea]

477. "the shifts this country goes through"

and just how many "shifts" have you lived through? Just curious. What exactly are the shifts you are referring to?

edit: NM

[proteus_lives]

484. What are you asking for?

My age or my knowledge of American history?

[arcadian]

493. Why don't you tell me the books you've read?

I'm sure my home library is far superior to whatever it is you've scratched together.

[proteus_lives]

496. All of them? Over a life time?

That's going to take quite a while.

Or should we just focus on history? U.S. for the shifts and WWII for the debunking of the Nazi comparison?

[MUAD_DIB]

299. The 1950s were pretty right leaning at times.

The USA didn't turn into 1933 Germany.

Sure there is a lot of ignorance/anger floating around in the USA today, but there always has been.


Teabaggery is an invention of the GOP, and they have suckered a lot of individuals. Don't get scared by the BS.

[Papa Boule]

466. But there are no Edward R. Murrows to pull us back from the brink this time

The respected voices of reason that pulled people back from the precipice in the 1950s have passed on. New ones have been supplanted or demoted and marginalized or "clown-ized," or their courage has failed or has been bribed or pressured out of them. Meanwhile, extremist voices of the right have been mainstreamed.

[MUAD_DIB]

296. Historically that isn't even close.

What led to 1933 Germany had many things to do with what happened during it's defeat in WW1.

The Obama administration is no Wiemar republic.

[proteus_lives]

304. Well put.

Where is the GOP's Putsch attempt?

Did the UN force us to limit our armed forces to 100,000 yet?

How many wheelbarrows worth of dollars did you need for your lunch today?

And they think the teabaggers are scary/violent? Try street-fighting between the SA and the Communists.

It's a new variation on Godwin's Law. "We're just like Germany before the Nazis took power!" :eyes:

[DemocratSinceBirth]

340. I Thought The NAZI Comparisons Were Inane When Bush* Was President

They are even more inane now with a Democratic president.

[14thColony]

468. I'm probably going to regret this, but here goes...

While I agree with your basic idea that you can't compare Germany 1918-1939 year by year with the present US, you comments here strongly indicate that you are taking the position that there's one and only one path to a fascist, quasi-fascist, or neo-fascist state and that's the one Germany took (references to Versailles Treaty limitations, economic collapse of Weimar Republic, etc) in the 1920s/1930s.

I would point out that Italian fascism had a different origin and development to German fascism, as did French fascism and Spanish fascism and Croatian fascism and Hungarian fascism and Chilean fascism and Argentine fascism and British fascism and so on and so forth. All with the exception of British fascism ended up taking control of their governments, but all in different circumstances and for different reasons.

To me it's like saying there's only one way to get to the neighborhood 7-11 because you are only familiar with one way, when in reality there are lots of routes that get you to the same place even if you've never gone those ways yourself.

So no, this is not 1933 Germany; far from it. Only 1933 Germany ever was or could ever be 1933 Germany. But that is not to say that clearly identifiable aspects of classic fascist ideology have not entrenched themselves in the American far right, and are not now creeping into even the 'mainstream' part of the GOP. So while we are not copying Germany in the 1920s and 1930s, there are aspects of both situations that are similar with respect to the radicalization of the right wings in both eras, and also similar to the development of strong fascist movements in the other countries noted here. And in many cases (but certainly not all) circumstances allowed the fascists or neo-fascists to dominate or even take over. So it might be well to consider that the US may not be immune from the same path, given the right circumstances.

[MUAD_DIB]

473. IF the economy were to get seriously worse then you could have a sound point

regarding the road to fascism. Until then thee are a lot of people in this country, left, right and center, that really don't want to go the route of Il Duce. It would take a lot to put us there.

Let's hope that it doesn't happen.

[14thColony]

490. I agree with you

History indicates things would have to get a lot worse and the radicalized right would need to find a charismatic, intelligent, and catalyzing single leadership figure IF we're talking about the historical model of fascism, which of course is all we have to go on. But political movements can evolve in response to stimulus too, and perhaps one day a model of fascism will emerge that presents a break from the past model, and perhaps it will emerge in the US. I seriously doubt that, but it is good to never totally discard the possibility of chance mutations in the "poltiical DNA" of a movement.

I would love to have a coffee with both you and Proteus face to face. I think it would be very interesting. Thanks for your comments.

[proteus_lives]

480. No society is immune from that path.

You're right, fascism doesn't alway require the same conditions each time.

But you have to combine the analysis of fascism with American history. Our country has been in much more dire straits, we have been even more polarized and the the flow and intake of information is vastly different. While the internet makes somethings easier for fascism it's a double-edged sword. It also makes the fascist doctrine much harder to create and maintain.

People are overreacting. Militia are a low-grade threat. To individuals and places, not the republic. The teabaggers? Identical to a thousand other political movements centered around one issue or the hate of one/small clique of politicians. They'll blow away with the wind in five years. (Another impact of technology, political movements will cycle much quicker.)

Nazi comparisons are still inane.

[14thColony]

488. Then I think we agree in most areas

Certainly we've been through worse circumstances, and while in the 1930s we nearly had our own pro-fascist coup attempt (the Businessmen's Plot), we've managed to weather these times pretty well even though we have winked now and then at certain aspects of fascism (or other forms of totalitarianism).

I also agree that, if what we're seeing of the radicalized proto-fascist right of today is all they've got, then we have little to worry about. 99 percent chance these people will "blow away with the wind" as you say. Because what I don't see in the movement is the charismatic leader, orator, political strategist and organizer that was such an important part of all the 'self-starter' fascist movements (i.e., the ones not imposed by an external fascist power, such as in Hungary), since fascism is in some ways as much personality cult as ideology.

And I further agree that Nazi comparisons are inane, as Naziism was the specific form of fascism that resulted from unique aspects of German culture, something that can't be replicated in any other country by Germany. But let's just go crazy and postulate that the 1% chance happens and American neo-fascism takes over. Whatever results from that will not be Naziism to be sure, but it will be a flavor of fascism nonetheless (hypothetically of course).

Nice chatting with you, and best wishes.

[treestar]

370. Wrong

A horrible thing to say, and waters down the horror that was Nazi Germany.

Shameful.

[bluestateguy]

37. Goodbye

And now that you are not an American anymore, can you cool it with your Doom and Gloom bullshit?

[jaksavage]

38. good luck

I congratulate your courage.
Hope it works out better for you there.

[Birthmark]

40. I don't blame you one bit.

Good luck to you. I can't leave. But I understand anyone who wants to leave or does. Even if this is still America...well, it won't be for much longer.

[highprincipleswork]

41. Anybody who hasn't thought about this isn't paying attention.

I'm amazed at the amount of hostility towards this point of view. Seems to me that anyone who hasn't thought about getting out isn't paying attention.

This country is in a seriously bad state of mind, and has been for a long time. 9-11 certainly didn't help, and created the climate where so much could be done to destroy the country. But we've been brainwashed since Reagan at least into thinking all sorts of ridiculous things. The average citizen seems to think that any kind of taxes or tax increases for any reason is always definitely bad. How do we expect to pay for the things we want anyway? If people think Obama is a Socialist, I must be off-the-chart radical. And the Democratic Party and President Obama seem to be willing to do pretty much what Republicans would do, which is so far away from what I believe is right, good, and fair, it's certainly easy to want to live elsewhere.

I've lived in Europe, and believe me, the climate is different, very, very different than it is here. It may not always be that way, and it too might change, but if I had a European passport or right-to-work, I would be seriously looking for work over there right now myself.

But the hostility, right here on this site, for someone who wants to move somewhere that is arguably in better shape. What's that about? Don't you think that people can even contribute to the struggle as an ex-pat? I think they can. And perhaps enjoy their life better in the process.

Frankly, we should all be sharing information on the best places to go to and the best ways to find work elsewhere. That would be a service.

For those who have hostility to this notion, I would say it might be in order to chill.

[DemReadingDU]

48. It may be different now, but

When the global financial Ponzi implodes, there is going to be worldwide depression and unrest. There really isn't going to be any 'safer' place. If you don't have family and friends where you are going, wouldn't you be considered a foreigner, someone who might not be trustworthy?

edit - I would prefer to be near family and friends, people I can trust, and we can all help each other survive whatever happens.

[inna]

53. Very good point. nt

[glitch]

512. Agreed. Although both ex-pats and resistance fighters are necessary for fighting fascism

family and friends and a well-known locality are crucial in either case.

TwixVoy, good luck to you and keep in touch!

[paulsby]

223. you're wrong

the hostility isn't because he wants to move. it's the reasons he gives FOR wanting to move, which basically amounts to a "america sucks and europe is so much better" rant facilitated by the stupid "us= germany 1933" posts.

[hack89]

374. Will he run away again when his new country changes?

what's wrong with staying and fighting for what is right?

[NoPasaran]

42. Crap. I was counting on you as a fourth for bridge

[DemReadingDU]

43. What about your family?

Just a thought...
Wouldn't it be better to stay near loved ones so that all could help each other survive thru the coming depression and unrest? Unless you go someplace where you have relatives/friends, the thing about leaving this country, is that you won't know anyone there. How hard is that going to be to survive where you could be considered a foreigner, especially when there is going to be depression and unrest globally.

[TwixVoy]

85. Family can't help

Anyone here is going to be subject to being screwed over.... unless you have family in the top 1% that is.

[lonestarlib]

45. Good luck to you.

Wish my family could get out this looney bin called Texas--it's getting scarier here every day.

[GoCubsGo]

93. I'm trying to get out of South Carolina, myself

I'm sick of dealing with all these brain-dead assholes who assume because I am white that I am "one of them." They are shocked to learn that I am not a republican, I don't hate brown-skinned people, and I am not a Christian. I dealt with a couple of them this morning. They were bitching about how they hated having the government "controlling their health care." When I asked how so, they couldn't tell me, but insisted they were right anyway. I asked if they had bothered reading the bill. Of course not. They never do. They asked if I had, and told them I did. I was mildly surprised when one of them asked where I had read it. You would think that they would have enough sense to check the governments web site, where it is posted--especially after President Obama has stated over and over and over again that the bill is posted online. They probably never saw any of his speeches, because FoxNews doesn't show them.

I don't know if the willful ignorance and intellectual laziness is more prevalent in my neck of the woods, but judging by the polls, I don't think it is. It's crap like that which makes me want to leave right along with the OP. I can't stand it any more. I really hate being surrounded by morons.

[tigereye]

117. Most of those folks going on and on have no idea what they are taking about

[GoCubsGo]

175. And, that is what makes me so sick of them.

I don't have much tolerance for willful ignorance, and these people are full of it.

[Nay]

383. Amen, GoCubsGo. TwixVoy is right to leave. I also am white and "

not one of them," and I live in Richmond, VA, so you don't have to explain to me about your experiences. Luckily, I also hold Canadian citizenship, so when I retire in 3 years I will be following TwixVoy right on out of this crazy place. The ignorance, faux Christianity, crappy education, and general stupidity have pushed me to the wall. When Mr Nay and I visit Canada, we breathe a sigh of relief when we cross the border.

Twix, I hope you find relief in Europe. I wish you well. Please check in from time to time, if you can.

[DebbieCDC]

46. K&R

Bon voyage and good luck. I wish I could go now too, but have to hang on until (if? maybe?) there's any social security left when I'm eligible to get it. If I'm lucky enough for that to happen I'll be leaving as well.

Go ahead and flame away, call me a quitter, etc. etc. I don't give a damn. I'm like TwixVoy -- I've voted, I've marched, I've protested (going back to anti-Vietnam protests in high school), I've donated, given to charity, done everything one person can humanly do to try to bring about a better way in this country. It's all going to hell in a handbasket, and if I can make it to retirement I want to spend whatever time I have left then in some relatively peaceful and civilized place. And that place is no longer the US.

May the wind be at your back TwixVoy.

[glinda]

161. Well said. Same here. A desire for a more civilized place....

[Bosso 63]

47. "I Had Trouble in Getting to Solla Sollew"

I would suggest that you read this first.

[Bobbieo]

72. 50 years ago many retirees moved to Mexico - My mom and dad did!!

Shit still happens!

[virgogal]

51. Bye !

[lifesbeautifulmagic]

55. Best of luck to you

I share your concerns about this country. My beloved brother has morfed into a tea bagger over the past year, with all the baggage and drama that brings, and it is breaking my heart. I (along with many of my friends who are over 50s), are becoming part of the long term unemployed, and it seems like no one gives a shit. I am retraining, schooling like hell, but for what I wonder?

In my part of the country, the garbage men (and women) are thinking of going on strike due to contract negotiations, and the morning paper had a story that !!! 1600 !!! people applied for scab positions, should a strike happen. The paper related that 100 "of the most qualified" where being interviewed for positions that might not even happen. People are lining and begging up for SCAB positions and you must even be "qualified" for a job picking up garbage.

http://www.seattlepi.com/local/417837_trash03.html?source=rss

i try to remain "in the moment" and not worry about everything, but it is hard. The advice about sticking it out until the next election was good. Whatever you do or where ever you go, take good care of yourself, and let us know.....

[HipChick]

56. Good luck! I've lived in Europe most of my life..'There' is often no better than ''Here" and

Tolerance is all relative..

The face-covering veil is set to be banned within weeks in Belgium, making it the first country in Europe to make the wearing of Muslim clothing illegal.

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/europe/article7083103.ece

[liberation]

127. When bigots lose their freedom to oppress is a tragedy, isn't it?

[Hannah Bell]

146. that's one way to spin it....

[liberation]

258. No, if its going to turn out that wearing a burqa is the ultimate expression of female emancipation

I am pretty sure, the rest of the world would appreciate it, if we at least pretend to be a tad more consistent on our positions. One day we're bombing the shit out of a 3rd world hellhole, among other things because them evil Talibans have a fetish for burqas. And the next we're talking about how evil Europeans are for not allowing a piece of garment that has no other purpose but the complete and total subjugation of a female.

[riderinthestorm]

283. .

:hug:

[Hannah Bell]

311. in both cases, some people are making the value judgements & imposing the sanctions, & other people

are receiving them.

same people in both cases.

i don't see the inconsistency; the power game is consistent.

[whathehell]

191. Hmmm...I thought France already did this.

[muriel_volestrangler]

208. In schools, and, I think, public buildings

but not in the street. Sarkozy said he'd like one, though.

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/03/31/world/europe/31briefs-franceveil.html

[CTyankee]

57. If I could, I'd live in Europe 4 to 6 months out of the year.

If I had my choice, I'd live in a villa in Umbria and have my kids and grandkids visit me. We'd go all around Umbria and Tuscany, get down to Rome, maybe take a flight to Malta in January...

My grandson is in an Italian language immersion program in kindergarten and is learning Italian (from a teacher who is a native speaker). I hope he will be able to use his Italian to get a job in Italy in whatever field when he grows up. I think he has such a HUGE advantage knowing another language...it can open up wonderful new opportunities.

Have you decided where you will live in Europe? Do you speak any other languages? I'd be interested to know...

[cameozalaznick]

59. "We don't see things as they are...

We see them as we are."

--Anais Nin.

[glinda]

162. Your quote was spot on

[druidity33]

256. yeah... that was good, man. nt.

[BlooInBloo]

60. Bye.

[jtuck004]

62. Do you have a list of potential locations? Where? Just curious... n.t

[Codeine]

63. I do believe you'll find emigrating to Europe

a bit more complicated than merely showing up at Heathrow with a big smile and a handful of Euros.

[Turbineguy]

64. All the best.

I hope you find what you are looking for and I hope the rest of us work to to give you reason to change your mind.

[Bluebear]

66. "Don't let the door hit your ass" - all these empathetic, progressive sentiments.

Best of luck to you. Keep us informed on the internets, and you certainly aren't giving up your citizenship, at least for a while, so come back if your dreams aren't met.

[Hissyspit]

If you leave, we'll make fun of you and call you a quitter!

Because no one should have the freedom of choice and freedom of movement and residence. :sarcasm:

[Tailormyst]

102. I know, this is such an odd thread

Why are people taking his moving to Europe so personally? heck, I would love to be able to do that!

[Initech]

67. I want to immigrate to Belgium at some point in my life.

I love Brussels, it's one of the few places outside of California that I'd consider living in. But I hear you - trying to do the right thing versus living in a country populated by some sick bastards, well, it just sucks. As soon as I go back to school and finish my education I'm outta here.

[Bluebear]

69. That country has always fascinated me too!

[Hissyspit]

70. The reason I would leave: Real single-payer-structured Universal Health Care of some sort.

Whether Canada or England or France. I don't know anything about Belgium.

[WinkyDink]

115. Belgium is awsome! Love Brussels, but I'd rather live in Bruges!

[Cessna Invesco Palin]

144. Geez, I freakin' hated Brussels.

Ugly city if ever I've seen one. Brugge is pretty, but there's not much to do there after a few days.

[conscious evolution]

214. I totally agree

[Initech]

422. Bruges was a great city, I had a great time there.

[klook]

455. Maybe I should go too

I already speak Belch! (sorry....)

[Initech]

464. Is that even a language?

:rofl:

[klook]

497. Yeah - I'm more fluent after a couple of beers. (n/t)

[Odin2005]

68. Good luck. Things are really starting to suck.

:hug:

[tammywammy]

71. Bye. n/t

[G_j]

sounds like a smart move. best of luck nt

[omega minimo]

98. wow what a simple minded positive civil post

:toast: nicely done.

OP taking so much crap here and got called out/linked by more
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=8082332&mesg_id=8082578

[G_j]

106. I've learned enough in this life to respect

others enough to let them make their own decisions. Who am I to judge this person?
They clearly stated their reasoning. I trust they will do what they feel is best for them.

[Brickbat]

73. Good luck. If you think racism "in Europe" is easier or less institutional than in the U.S.,

well, as I say, good luck with that.

[tammywammy]

77. +1

The grass is always greener.

[Fire1]

169. And how do you know that?? n/t

[Brickbat]

201. Because I've seen it.

And I've lived abroad -- not in western Europe -- and heard enough people's experiences to know that the U.S. does not have a lock on racism.

[Fire1]

263. My experiences have been in western Europe and the exact

opposite of racism. I truly loved it.

[liberation]

267. There is racism everywhere. Period.

Even though I don't really agree with the hysterics of the OP, I think his concerns were regarding the increased corporatism of the political process in this country. Not racism.

[Fire1]

282. That's probably true considering human nature but I doubt to

the degree it is here in the states.

[proteus_lives]

483. Wow, naive.

Google how the Roma are treated throughout Europe.

France's islamic ghettos, banning the burqa, simmering undercurrent of antisemitism.

Germans beating Turkish immigrants.

The rise of Neo-Nazism in Poland, Russia and the Baltic nations.

Serbia, Croatia, Albania, Kosaovo, Bosnia-Need I say more?

Italian hatred of African immigrants.

Spanish bigotry against the Basque.

Boiling tension against the Islamic immigrants in the Netherlands and Belgium.

British racism like "paki-hunting".

Europe is far worse in their racism because they ignore it.

[whopis01]

417. You and I had very different experiences in Europe. n/t

[rcrush]

74. I wish I could do that.

I'd like to live in the Netherlands or someplace where everything is legal.

[Bobbieo]

76. Some 50 years ago, many retirees moved to Mexico. My mom and dad did,

But drug cartels do happen thanks to American drug habits!!!!

[Name removed]

78. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Codeine]

91. +1 nt

[freddie mertz]

80. I wish I could join you. This country is f@#&%*d.

But I am trapped for now,

I wish I could find a job in Canada.

[UTUSN]

81. *******CANCEL******* those retirement liquidation requests. NOW. n/t

[tavalon]

83. I wish you the best of luck and happiness

I'm looking into Canada myself.

[virgogal]

84. This is your first passport? You might want to do some serious research

before you head out.

By the way,where did you get the infomation that we are the only "nation in the world" that rents storage space. Just curious.

[TwixVoy]

86. I should have qualified that statement to say....

the nation with the highest volume of rented storage space of personal junk.

[virgogal]

87. That makes a bit more sense.

In addition,not all storage space is for our excess junk.

When my mother died we put some of her good stuff in storage until my kids could decide what thet wanted for their apartments (they were just starting out at the time).

My unemployed daughter has put her furniture into storage until she gets a job and can move out of the home she is now sharing.

[Codeine]

88. You make a good point

http://www.safestore.co.uk/

http://www.bigyellow.co.uk/

http://www.accessstorage.com/

http://www.shurgard.co.uk/ad/maxlead-adwords-uk-group-storage-price?gclid=CNTekbrC66ACFRgsawodG0-sHA

http://www.foodselfstorage.com/a373190-the-growth-of-the-self-storage.cfm

[virgogal]

121. There you go-----I can't stand "facts" w/o backup proof.

[mistertrickster]

253. From my experience living overseas, that's pretty accurate. No place on earth has

the volumes of junk we amass . . .

[Juche]

89. I thought Europe was insanely hard to emigrate to

That was my impression. If I emigrate it'll probably be to a place in Asia or Latin America. Low cost of living, decent people, nice scenery.

[Codeine]

96. He's got his first passport!

That's all it takes! LIQUIDATE EVERYTHING AND LEAVE NOWWW!

[LeftyMom]

109. I'm glad somebody else caught that.

Also, based on the OP's previously stated careers (assistant manager at Target and a short stint as a repair person at AT&T) and previously mentioned lack of college education, I'm not sure where the OP thinks he's going to get to emigrate.

[14thColony]

210. Yes very

I've lived in the UK for almost 8 years, but only because I had leave to remain for work in one form or another. Despite the fact I own a house in the UK and it's virtually the only place my daughters have ever known, no job = no right to remain for me. If I end up marrying my girlfriend then things change as she's an EU citizen. But at the OPs age, I don't see much chance of emigrating to Europe or Australia or NZ unless there are familial connections.

[Tailormyst]

95. Which country did you get to take you in so fast?

I am white, but also a pagan and a member of the GBLT community, so I can understand your fears. I wish you the best, wherever you end up :)

[Ikonoklast]

100. Eight months to get a work visa? In any country in the EU?

Have you seen the unemployment figures for western Europe lately? Forget eastern Europe.

Oy.


What makes you think you'll find gainful employment? Or will even be allowed into the country for an extended stay without a work visa?

Best of luck. I have close family living in Europe, and they have no illusions as to what can happen at any time, in any country.

It is not a utopia, or a socialist wonderland. They are dealing with many of the same problems we are...sometimes, not as well.

[defendandprotect]

234. Agree . . . the elites, of course, are not just bringing down America . . . it's labor everywhere!!

[earth mom]

110. I don't blame you for leaving, I would if I could.

But FYI-the majority of us in this country are trapped in a class war where the rich, powerful and well connected are screwing the rest of us over-what's happening in this country is NOT about skin color.

The shitbaggers aka teabaggers are a very small batshit crazy part of the population who have gotten media attention because they can be used as a tool by scum like Limbaugh and Faux news.

Those shitbagger fuckers give white people and the entire human race a bad name. Fuck them!!!! :puke:

[northernlights]

112. best of luck to you...let us know how you make out

I started planning my exit when 80% of this country approved W and he was sortof voted in a second time around. I don't know if I'll make it out of here at this point...I've been robbed blind over the past decade. But I'm still working on plans for an escape as soon as I get my new degree.

But I'm still in wait and see mode. Most people objecting to the HCR see it as INSURANCE reform, not healthcare reform. It's not Obamacare, it's Romneycare, and it made an awful mess in Massachusetts.

People (including me) feel and say a lot of things prior to an election. But when it comes down to the act of voting, we always end up holding our noses and voting for the least abominable option.

In the meantime, Obama seems to be on a roll of sorts, so I'm waiting and seeing. As some have written, if the courts overturn the mandate, it could force Obama's and Congress's hands on expanding Medicare.

[Warpy]

I wish you the best of luck

and I might or might not join you at some point, although I'm likely to stick to this hemisphere because I simply can't afford the parts of Europe I'd like to live in, where I know the languages well enough to get by.

Were I a person of color, I'd probably be as far along in my plans as you are.

[shireen]

113. good luck, i hope you find what you're looking for ...

I'm guessing that it's peace of mind and a little joy. If moving to Europe helps you find it, good on you. We all deserve to live a good life.

I came to this country in 1983 as a student, and became a citizen in 2002. As much as i miss my family, i've never regretted my decision. I really have come to love this country and love the land. It's very distressing to see what's happened to her, but i can't think of any other place I'd want to be.

The intellectual diversity of human beings is quite mind-boggling! I wish i understood why people think the way they do. I really do try to understand other points of view, to stand in the shoes of others. But it's damned hard, really scary, and emotionally exhausting.

[Codeine]

119. He's not going anywhere.

He's desperately ignorant of the actual requirements for European immigration. You don't just show up with your backpack and a permission slip from your mom to get handed your residency papers and work permit.

The truly funny thing is that the OP will never even get far enough to discover that his dream of popping over to Europe and taking up the good life of streetside cafes and month-long vacations is just a fantasy, because it's all talk -- just yammering away and making the right noises to please that certain portion of DU.

[proteus_lives]

129. +1

[Robb]

134. Cynical.

Probably accurate, though.

[Codeine]

137. I find the two go hand in hand. nt

[SidDithers]

262. +1...nt

Sid

[Dead_Parrot]

339. Interestingly, that's almost exactly how I emigrated to NZ

Rolled off the flight at Auckland with a suitcase and got a temporary visitors visa: Five and a half years later, I'm permanently settled with a house and my own business.

So yeah, maybe he'll fall flat on his face. Or maybe you just lack imagination.

[IDemo]

362. I thought NZ had similar requirements to Canada

Restrictions on who can come based on age, health, wealth/level of income, etc.

New Zealand was number one on my list during the Bush reign.

[Dead_Parrot]

463. Various ways of doing it...

You can come in as an investor, a "skilled migrant" - (ie you work in a field they're short of), through family, or "work to residence" where you hold down a job for a few years.

It does get tricky if you're older and/or fail the mdeical, but it can still be done if you can talk your way round the immigration staff. I'm convinced the whole set-up is a perverse endurance test...

[DrCory]

355. Ouch! And LOL! N/T

[treestar]

371. Amen. OP has to be a dual citizen or married to a Euro. national

Americans are quite arrogant about the fact other countries (who knew :rofl:) have immigration restrictions just like the US does. They think we are global royalty who can go wherever we want.

And to be sure Europeans can tell us, they have their problems too.

[Name removed]

123. Deleted message

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Liberal_in_LA]

132. I don't blame you. Keep posting though...no matter where you are.

[Cessna Invesco Palin]

133. Uh, is this a joke?

First of all, it's not as if you can just show up, sans work permit or temporary resident visa, and live in a country indefinitely, let alone get a job. It's less difficult in some countries like Spain, but it's not *easy* anywhere. And as I recall, you work in retail. Not a particularly specialized profession for which work permits are issued.

[Codeine]

138. Targets across the globe are scrambling for the OP.

He's taking calls daily from the length and breadth of Europe offering larger and larger bonuses for him to come run Small Electronics.

[Dj13Francis]

135. Well, you have a point...

Nobody said it was going to be easy... We're probably F'ed regardless. But I for one will not give up my country without a fight. I did not descend from cowardly men.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

139. I fully understand, but it is VERY hard to emigrate to Europe

A few countries take foreign retirees, but not many.

It is easier to retire in Latin America or Southeast Asia.

I am furious at myself for not taking that job offer in Norway when I had a chance in 1982.

[Vickers]

142. What other languages do you know?

:shrug:

Also, you DO know that passports have nothing to do with emigrating, right?

[Name removed]

147. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[on point]

145. You are right. The darkness is coming

I may move to Europe as well. Other members of my family are considering leaving too. The darkness is coming because the struggle is now between an evil darkness and milder darkness. We have no on our side to stop the slide.

Just for pure irony sake I may start a business in Germany to help Americans escape the coming fascism.

Do remember though, you can still vote regardless of where you are (or now). I am sure the 'Homeland' brown-shirts will take that away at some point.

[Codeine]

148. Ai yai yai.

People like you make me weep.

[G_j]

150. good nt

[cynatnite]

149. Wow, we really do suck! I didn't know we were so horrible...

I still like being here, but I don't fault anyone who opts to leave.

[LarryNM]

151. It Is Wise to Be Globally Mobile

Even if One never permanently moves. Plan ahead. Helps keep the mind sharp and make connections.

[Bryn]

153. Best of Luck

as for 70% of the US population suffering from some sort of mental issue ... it's spreading worldwide. I think maybe Capitalism/Corporation/Religion is the big problem affecting people.

Check this site out http://www.oilempire.us/canada.html it's not just Canada, but all over, too. Interesting site, something all of us should be made aware of. I was thinking of moving to Canada!

But I understand why you're doing this :hug: Do keep in touch and let us know where you're going.

[lpbk2713]

154. Just as a suggestion ...

I'd recommend Southern Spain. I lived there for three years, although it was several years ago.

The weather there is nice most of the year. The people are very gracious and they welcome Americans.
Mass transit is available almost everywhere. And the cost of living is favorable.


Good luck to you TwixVoy in whatever you decide.


:thumbsup: :hi: :thumbsup:

[Ikonoklast]

457. The Spanish economy is still teetering.

Unemployment, officially, hovers around 20%...I would take that figure with a grain of salt as big as an iceberg.


Housing collapsed on a scale that makes American housing woes seem trivial.


http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/8509946.stm


I have immediate family members living in Spain. Things are bleak, at best.

[The Midway Rebel]

156. Just remember:

No matter where you go, there you are.

[MissDeeds]

159. I am so sorry

you feel you've been driven to this point, but I understand. You have to do what you feel is right. I'm sure this decision was not easy, and you have struggled with it for some time. Frankly, there are many of us who would like to leave, but for whatever reasons cannot.

Please continue to post and let us know your thoughts and perspective from your new home. Best of luck. Godspeed, friend.

:hug:

[november3rd]

163. MLK said,

Unless a man has something he's willing to die for, that man is not fit to live.

[Kablooie]

164. Sounds like a pretty exciting life adventure for you, actually. Good luck.

And of course the internet being what it is, you can stay here and no one would even know you had left.

You can keep abreast of what's happening and if things workout better than you anticipated, you can return.
(I'm not saying they will, I'm just saying none of us can know the future.)

[Codeine]

270. "Life adventure" my ass.

He's not going anywhere.

[Kablooie]

336. Well, if he doesn't go anywhere, that's a life adventure too. Not as exciting, I'll grant you.

[SocialistLez]

168. Can't say I blame you

I'm a black lesbian and I'd hop at the chance to move. Preferably Canada.

I wish you the best!

BTW, the health care bill is just health insurance expansion. Health insurance doesn't equal health care.

[Bonobo]

171. I beat you to it.

I also thought long and hard. The process being one that started back in about 2003 when I SWORE if Bush was re-elected, I wpuld leave. It took me 7 years, but I am finished with the US and if I can influence my kids to leave it, I will. In fact, I am doing just that.

I'm out, too. Good decision. For your health and safety and that of your loved ones/

Sorry if this pisses some people off.

[theophilus]

172. Glad you are doing what you want. I imagine you want to quit posting on DU, too. Good for you! n/

t

[Oregone]

173. Way to Go!

I did this 2 years ago (made a post here about it). Good luck. Hope it works out for you

[LiberalLoner]

176. Best of luck to you. I lived in the NL as a teenager (my Dad was stationed there) and loved it n/t

[Fire1]

177. I'm sure you're smart enough to know what needs to be done

to emigrate and I'm sure you've done your research. I took several trips to Europe before deciding where I'd like to live. Keep in touch, stay away from gypsies (especially on the subways!!!!) They're renowned pick pockets. Above all, BE SAFE!!!

[Stardust]

209. Shhhhhhhhh...we're not allowed to disparage them on DU.

[harmonicon]

179. good luck

I've been living in the UK for 3 years and will apply for a 2 year visa (the only one I CAN qualify for) in a few months once I'm done with my degree. After that I don't know what I'll do - either I'll have a job that will sponsor me, or - assuming things keep going well - get married. No fucking way am I going back to the US. After my girlfriend got horribly sick and had to have surgery last year, the healthcare problems in the US became all too real and I realized that I couldn't go back to a country where she would have either had to suffer for years - or die - or go into debt for the rest of her life just to have proper medical care.

[Matariki]

180. Good luck

can hardly blame you. When you get settled and figure out how to work/live in Europe, I for one would love to hear about the process. I always figured it would be difficult to emigrate to Europe or I'd have done it by now too.

[tnlefty]

181. Good luck to you, and I mean that sincerely...

I've been wondering lately if what we've saved up send our 3 through college wouldn't be better spent letting them decide whether they want to remain here or not. :hug:

[Lex]

183. What in the world makes you think they want you there?

You might be misunderstanding the difficulty obtaining permanent residency status "in Europe."

[davidpdx]

184. I have mixed feelings about reading your post

While I can't understand what it is like to be black, I do share your concern about the wackos. I made the decision to live overseas a little over 6 years ago and have stayed here. While there are some hardships (I can't speak the language well), I have learned to get by. I visit the US about every 2 years to see family. I have permanent residency here in Korea and have no intention of going back to live in the US. My wife asked me the other day if we were going to go live there at some point and I said probably not. The sad thing is other then a few family members I have very few connections to the US. I still remain involved politically and always will.

I don't think these people are necessarily mentally ill, I think it is pure hatred that they probably grew up with and was ingrained in them from the time they were kids. I grew up in an area in Oregon that was pretty racist (though I wasn't born there). The amount of minorities in my high school graduating class was small. I wrote a paper in college about it for a intercultural communications class. I ended up moving to a larger city and going to college with a wide range of different people which opened my eyes a lot.

Living overseas is hard, but I think if you plan it well you'll be ok.

[amborin]

185. good luck to you! where in Europe are you headed?

[nolabear]

187. Well, I wish you luck but I think you're mistaken about Americans.

It's easy to imagine that we're mostly loud and angry and shallow because that's what gets the attention in the media, which is designed to arouse exactly the anxiety you're feeling so you'll be afraid to stop paying attention. We're in the crowded theater (country) and they're screaming "Fire".

I'm a therapist. It's my job to talk to many, many people about their lives and how they feel and what they think, and, with other therapists, to talk together aobut what we see going on in the world. Your assessment is, in my opinion, incorrect. People don't have "mental issues" in the quantity you believe. There is a lot of stress and fear in the country and in the world, but it's been my experience that most people are doing the best they can and most of them, given the chance, believe in equal opportunity and an even break, even thought their definition of it varies. If you actually count the people whose voices you hear raised in the kind of vitriol that the Tea Party espouses, it's very much in the minority. Is there racism and sexism and homophobia and a host of ignorance and fear borne attitudes? Sure. But it's better than it was, and the people I and my fellow shrinks see and the trends we observe in the up and coming generation are hopeful, if stressed and probably limited by economic issues. But in the global scheme of things, the ability you have to save money and make the decision to leave speaks volumes about the relative prosperity and freedom you have.

I hope that you find a wonderful place to live in Europe and report back here; it would be a valuable contribution to DU. But I'll hang around and keep in mind, as per your advice, that it's important to get to know more people. Be well.

[dccrossman]

189. Kick

Just worth read reading

[MilesColtrane]

190. I respect your decision.

But, please do me a favor, will you?

Once you get settled please don't come on DU only to shit all over those of us who have decided to stay and try to improve things here, like some American ex-pats here who I won't name.

Good luck.

[wickerwoman]

194. Good luck and *please* do as much research as possible.

I wouldn't wish failed immigration on my worst enemy. It is unspeakably stressful, expensive, heart-breaking and demoralizing.

Many countries with universal health care will not take retirees. New Zealand, for example, won't take people over 55, people with diabetes, cancer survivors or people any other chronic, expensive condition, or people who are significantly overweight.

Many other countries have a points system which will penalize you for being older, for not having a college degree, for not speaking the language fluently, etc.

Most countries will require you to have a job offer in hand before they will consider you for immigration and most companies will not consider hiring you if you are not already a citizen. In many cases, that job offer must be in a specific field (in NZ the company must prove that they couldn't find a citizen to fill the position- meaning the company must really, really want *you* specifically before they will consider going through the extra paperwork.)

You *might* be able to swing it if you have a lot of money and can start your own business but that's taking on *a lot* of risk obviously.

I'm in the process of immigrating to New Zealand. All told, it's going to take me five to seven years, cost easily $80-120,000 dollars and at no point will I be sure it will be successful until I have the papers in my hands (probably two to three years from now).

But it's my lifelong dream and I'm willing to make sacrifices for it (big salary cut, far from aging parents, had to give up pets). Just make sure you know what you're getting into and that it's really worth it to you.

And if it is, good luck to you and don't let the jealous and insecure get you down. You have one life to live, you aren't hurting anybody and you deserve all the happiness you can find.

[Lex]

212. Good post. It's amazing how many Americans think they can just live anywhere permanently

and all they have to do is "move to Europe" and that's that. Immigration is a big hurdle, as you've described realistically.

[inna]

290. excellent post; easily the best post in this entire thread. nt

[DesertFlower]

195. i wish you the best. nt

[ooglymoogly]

198. I hear you, but be careful of the Euro....It is in for a

big correction. Get some financial advice on what currencies are going to weather the coming storm. Listen to some of Max Keizers recent videos. I would consider the Swiss Franc for instance, having, by law, 40% gold behind it and that is at the old $42. an oz.; You do the math. Just sayin...don't put all your eggs in one basket. As for the rest I agree with you. Lived in the big E for a third of my adult life.....would go back in a heartbeat if my roots were not so deep and anchoring here.

[jeanpalmer]

330. Definitely be careful with the Euro

There's not much behind it, certainly no central government with taxing power that's required to support it, like the dollar. I'm not an expert on it, but there have been many articles written recently questioning the survivability of the Euro.

[awoke_in_2003]

199. I need to start saving...

I want to be out of this country before my boy turns 18. I refuse to sacrifice him to the latest war for profit, regardless whether the president is a republican or democrat.

[riverbendviewgal]

200. I left in 1969

I don't regret it at all.

I can understand how you feel because I know how the political climate is right now with my own family that live in the USA.

I have a very white, very north eastern state, very racist family who Hate Obama with a passion.

I sense terrible times coming if the Republicans win.


My mother hates Obama, she would not allow me to speak his name. I have 3 brothers. They are all very ignorant and hate Obama, n Nancy Pelosi and anything that has happened since Obama became president.

I cut my ties with them when I started to hear and receive very violent emails from them.

They say you can't choose your family but you can choose your friends.

I have plenty of good friends up here in Canada. A great health care system. I am living comfortably in my retirement.
I chose to not have a USA family. I don't need the hatred.

[SargeUNN]

202. Ok so that makes me wonder about this case

I knew a man who was very sick and was told it was terminal. He looked at the cost of healthcare for his disease and what it would do to his family financially as well as his own suffering, and he took his life. His family has suffered since and the financial situation is stressed, and now he would be covered with this new law. So did he do the right thing?

[eridani]

327. Remember that "coverage" does not = care

He would have no guarantee at all that his insurance company would pay any particular claim.

[Born_A_Truman]

203. I wish you well

You know "these people" didn't just drop here from the sky yesterday. Sheesh! They've been here forever. I'm turning 64 in June and believe me, they are in every state and probably every country in the world. Let us know if you find utopia, but I don't think it exists.

[rasputin1952]

205. Well, I'm not going anywhere...

I don't fault you for thinking the way you do, it's your Right, if you think that leaving is the better part of this fight, well OK, but I don't

Me, I'm sticking around, see, this is our country. It doesn't belong to neo-cons, centrists, Progressives, it belongs to all of us. I can't give up when we are actually moving forward, and if we moving backward, I'd do like I've always done, dig in and do battle.

Not all that long ago, I was out there fighting for Civil Rights, that war was largely won, but there are still a few skirmishes that are being fought. I've been fighting for Womens Rights, GLBT Equality, Medical Care and the keeping the Constitution alive and well. There are times I think I've bitten off more than I can chew, but then I hear of someone else being oppressed and the clarion call gets me moving again...it's always like that. I'm never sure where the next fight is coming from, it could be the TX School Book situation, or an immigrant being beaten because he's "different"; it could be a kid who got busted for pot and is facing a long prison stretch because some knuckle dragging oafs think that marijuana is destroying the world. I don't know, I just can't turn my back on those that really need help.

And it's not just in this country. When I see kids starving in Africa, someone has to stand up for them; when I see kids in Central South America, I need to know what I can do to help them...how can I pressure my government to help these people, what can I do to make a small difference in just one little corner of the country of the world?

I guess I could just shut myself off, walk away, throw up my hands and say, I've had it". But that's not me, never has been, never will be. When I see a problem, I want to be a part of fixing it, I don't want others to get hurt while I can just, "move along".

I honestly believe that we are watching the final death throes of the neo-con movement. I want to be here and help shovel some dirt into the grave. I don't want these people coming back because I didn't do all I could to stop their hate, stop their cruelty, stop their incessant greed and destruction. I guess I could just watch our nation dissolve from afar, but why would I when I know I can fight for what is right, what is just and best for the country?

Good luck wherever you go, one thing about the parts of the world I've been to, from a distance, everything looks good, but once you get there you get to see some of underbelly, and generally speaking, it ain't all that pretty. Me, I'll be here cleaning things up, fighting for those who are too timid or don't have the expertise. I'll be speaking for those who have been silenced and I will take the boot of RW oppression from the necks of the people. I think there will be a lot of us dealing with the county's problems, it's the only way to move forward.

[inna]

235. thanks for a thought through response, and for not locking/deleting this thread.

[rasputin1952]

249. Well, I just figure we're all in this togehter, and I want everyone

to make a difference. Of course, I can't force people to action, but I can't walk away and let the country go to hell either.

Maybe I'm wrong, but I honestly believe we can make this a better place...millions before me have thought the same way...no way I'm going to let their legacy down...and I refuse to let the children of today enter a dismal future, ruled by thugs and extremists. The future is ours to shape and I'm not about to walk away from job...:hi:

[DainBramaged]

211. I wish you only the best my friend, you must do for you and no one else.

Good luck, and wherever you land, know that many of us wish your good luck.




:hug:

[Warren Stupidity]

213. I understand. Good luck.

I've considered doing the same, but for now it would be too difficult.

[paulsby]

217. have a nice trip

don't let the door hit you in the okole on the way out.

ah yes, another "america sucks" post

[ClarkUSA]

218. Obama has asked his Dem allies to push thru a bill that would help checkmate this SCOTUS decision.

The details aren't ironed out yet, but I believe one of the provisions would be to force CEOs to "approve" of any political commercials paid for by their lobbyists or corporate coffers.

That said, good luck to you and keep us updated on where you go and how you're doing.

[liberation]

269. Is this one of those n-dimensional check mates?

Please, how would the CEOs having to "approve" in any way shape or form neutralize the SCOTUS decision?

[ClarkUSA]

284. The thinking is that CEOs would be leery of a very public backlash affecting their bottom line...

... a là the Whole Foods' witless CEO dissing HCR and causing Obama supportive liberals to go viral re: a boycott of the chain (something I and my many organic foodie friends signed onto and are still observing because the CEO's non-apology did not satisfy).

Anyway, as I said, the particulars haven't been worked out yet but the President and Congressional Dems are going to do their best to minimize the effect of the SCOTUS decision. I anticipate legislation to be passed at least a year prior to 2012.

The good news? So far, the RNC hasn't raked in a ton of corporate monies. Corporations are understandably cautious about being on the losing PR side of a debate.

[14thColony]

220. I sympathize with you

Since 1993 I've lived in the US for less than 4 years, of which 12 years were (and still are) in Europe. I go back 'home' on visits but I have virtually nothing in common anymore with the people in the area where I grew up. If I were to leave my current country, it would be for another European country or perhaps Latin America, where I also have experience.

But I wanted to caution you: it is VERY hard to emigrate to most any European country. Do you have a clear means for applying for a visa? Many (most, I think) EU countries require that you acquire your residency or emigration visa before you depart your home country. You usually can't show up as a tourist then try to sort it out later.

Best of luck though.

[scheming daemons]

222. If everyone worried about a "teabag takeover" acted like you, it becomes self-fulfilling

If all the good people leave, they win by default.


At least stay and vote before you go.

[swilton]

225. Please keep us informed

Many of us agree with you and would like to follow you - although I am a white female I agree with what you see.

Unfortunately, what income I now have depends on a federal pension - so I'm doubly screwed.

[Lindsey]

228. Good luck to you. I wish you all the best.. n/t

[marybourg]

316. The Federal Government will be happy to send your pension

check to you wherever you decide to, and are allowed to, live.

[Carnage251]

226. I know how you feel

I would like to get the hell out of Alabama

[roody]

227. Hope to see you there.

I am going to Europe for the first time, for five weeks in June-July. I am looking for a good place to live simply. Maybe Portugal. Are you multi-lingual?

[ChicagoSuz219]

230. I survived 8 years of George W. Bush...

...I'm invincible now.

Have a nice trip.

:smoke:

[HipChick]

231. Ain't that the truth...

[Lindsey]

237. I re-read your post and I wasn't going to say it but I also have

been seriously considering moving to Vancouver. I'm just so tired of fighting. I think you made some very profound points. I'm a white woman and I'm sick of the racists, greed, and the isolation we as a society have become. I think I'll stick it out until 2012 (hard to believe that's only two years away)because my spiritual side has hope that 2012 isn't going to be the end of the world like people are saying but a new awaking. An awaking that will take us to a much higher vibration.

[Orsino]

347. Yep. Vancouver for me.

I hope to make it happen in the next couple of years.

[Midlodemocrat]

393. Not to mention 8 years of Reagan.

[ProSense]

239. "I believe the tea baggers will start to take control starting this November. " Bye!

More than 85 people rec'd this?

[bondwooley]

240. I hear you, buddy ...

Made this satire video to capture the feeling that you've very clearly and very well stated.

It's called "The Last Straw."

And as for 70% of the country having a mental disorder, well, I've always said that if the right people were medicated, I wouldn't have to be.

Anyway, I hope that this video gives you a moment of laughter while you're packing your bags:

http://bit.ly/ahQTbl

Best of luck to you, and to the rest of us!

[Iggo]

241. Run!

[mistertrickster]

244. Good luck, my friend, and Godspeed. If I were you, I'd head for an East bloc

country like Chech, Slovak, Romania, or Bulgaria.

I lived overseas for 8 years in Japan, Malaysia and China. It's a great life.

America isn't the only "land of opportunity," that's for sure.

[Stumbler]

248. As a mostly-sarcastic/ snarky poster, I honestly say "Good for you"

I told myself I'd leave if * got elected. Then I told myself I'd leave if * got re-elected. And yet I'm still here. I'm watching the value of my dollar drop, as I'm watching my "Dem/Lib" president capitulate again & again in the name of corporate-first/ supply-side economics. I'm also watching as a significant portion of our populace de-evolves (if that's a proper term) into the seething mass of ill-informed, hate-filled groups much as you described.

But I for one won't leave the land and nation in which I was born and raised.

I am still under the age of 30, and by many that means I'm just "idealistic" and expecting "unrealistic" changes. While that may be so, I'm choosing to use my coming 20 years or so to find out how true that axiom is. If I were of an age of say, 50 today, I wouldn't hesitate to follow you to Europe. And believe me, the idea is quite tempting even at the age of 28. But no, I will not abandon the United States just yet; not as a nation, nor as it's core beliefs of freedom, nor as it's way of life (Constitutionally, not in the manner of the average American consumer.)

Yes, it's true "we" have taken the wrong path over the past 30 years. But I think I'm better suited to provide real change from the inside than I would be by running to the safety of other nations that currently share my true visions of "Democracy" & "Social Justice."

All that said: I bear you only the best of wishes. And I hope that as you leave this land, you wish those of us who choose to stay the same.

[MrModerate]

252. Sure the SCOTUS decision was terrible, but watching from Australia . . .

It strikes me that the outcome is unlikely to be as dire as you paint or to come on that quickly. Based on my visits home, it looks pretty crazy in the U.S., but from an international perspective, there are a lot of governments (a majority, I'd say) that are more in danger of going off the rails than America. I'd hold off a bit if I were you.

Or at least have firm arrangements for estabishing legal residency in Europe or elsewhere before you go. As someone who's travelled most of his life, I can tell you, doing it on your own nickel and without citizenship/residency is incredibly expensive and likely to eat up all your money toute de suite.

That having been said, I have no intention of returning permanently to the US any time soon, for reasons that are pretty close to yours.

[Robeson]

255. If I had the money, I'd been gone a long time ago. If you can afford it...

...I applaud you for realizing that the world is a big place, and there are other countries which are more conducive to a good quality of life, than here.

[JanusAscending]

257. TAKE ME WITH YOU !!!

It's odd..yesterday on the way home from shopping, I drove past our little post office, and noticed a large new sign on the front of the steps, "Passports available here..Photos as well" I thought to myself, self you should probably get one of those, seeing that you need one now to get into Canada or the Bahamas, or any cruise destination. I've been on one cruise and before I die I'd love to take another. I would also like to visit Canada and look up some of my Dad's relatives. Now I read your post and just thought I'd jump in here, seeing I have nothing or no one tying me down where I am. Before my husband passed we were going to buy a motor home and see America, collecting our SS checks along the way. It wouldn't be the same alone. Just thought I'd take a stab at it!! LOL

[treestar]

259. You won't like Europe either

Unless you are a dual citizen and have some real claim to be part of the culture.

People are basically the same everywhere.

And amazingly, you remained throughout the Bush Administration.

[MUAD_DIB]

294. I am a dual citizen, and I won't be fleeing. I may ask my family to flee

if things became very bad. I am a 5th Gen American, and my GGGF fought for the Union. I would owe it to him to do the same if the need did indeed arise.

No bravado. This is my country.


If TwixVoy wants to go then he should go.

[bikebloke]

260. I hope you have better luck than I did with the move.

I saw the difference over 30 years ago and gave it some good tries over the years. My own values are more in tune with European social democracy. Oh well, I saw a lot of the world, met lots of people and learned languages. And who knows, maybe an opportunity will arise yet.

Good luck to you, mate.:thumbsup:

[GOPBasher]

261. I feel your pain, but one thing: You can still keep your citizenship and vote

in our elections. You can have dual citizenship now. I'm hoping you do that, because my family and I are stuck in this country and we need all the votes we can get from sane people like you.

[eecumings]

265. Every country has problems

so welcome to the growing numbers of Americans who have left the US. We left in 2004 after the war criminals Bush and Cheney stole another election. We immigrated to Canada and have been exceedingly happy since. Our entire island has less than 140,000 people, most of whom know each other and are perhaps related. We live in a rural village where most of the people are our friends, where we don't have to lock our doors, where we can run into the store while our car is outside still running. Our crime rate is minimal; we have "socialized" health-care; we can talk to our government officials because they are probably neighbors. And we still have great restaurants, many golf courses, professional theatre, and great live music happening every night.

We take winter vacations in Mexico. The only US state we visit is Maine. We are still US citizens, but I don't think we will be back for the shooting wars that the right-wingers so desperately want.

[nadinbrzezinski]

266. So off to Europe you go

I hope you realize immigration into any European country is NOT easy.

I also hope you realize that racism is alive and well in Europe.

After that, good luck, and I mean that.

[WildEyedLiberal]

276. THANK YOU

It utterly astounds me that some people here seem to think that all you need to move to another country is a valid passport and some money in the bank. Have these people even looked into the requirements for permanent residency for any other country? Canada probably has the "easiest" requirements for Americans to fulfill (maybe Australia is comparable, I haven't checked), and even then you can't just move and set up shop. You have to, you know, QUALIFY. And Europe? Unless you have an immediate job offer or immediate ancestors from X country, forget about it. Seriously, forget about it.

[nadinbrzezinski]

279. I know for the EU because I do qualify

but there is more, I would have to resign my current citizenship...

And that is just for starters.

[Sultana]

429. +1

[akbacchus_BC]

274. Why are you quitting in such a short time, you did not leave during

Bush's time, why now? I do not believe you!

[Orsino]

348. Seventy years, at least, of creeping corporatism.

I detect a pattern--one that has been slightly mitigated recently, but in no way reversed.

[WildEyedLiberal]

275. All you need to move to Europe is a passport?

:eyes: I certainly hope you've put some actual THOUGHT into this before deciding that all you have to have to apply for residency overseas is a passport and a one-way plane ticket. It's certainly not that easy to immigrate HERE; what makes you think the rest of the world hands out residency visas like candy?

[Lex]

280. This is what I was wondering too.

Some Americans think they can just move and live where ever they want. Hello, not going to happen that way.

[GreenPartyVoter]

277. Safe travels. I hope you land somewhere wonderful! :^)

[CLANG]

286. I feel your pain

I wish I could do the same, but I am doomed to ride the sinking ship, for I have no money. And being "white" gives me no comfort, I can assure you.

[jeff47]

287. Enjoy your trip. We'll be here.

Working to make it better for when you deem us worthy for your return.

[MrMickeysMom]

288. You posted this exactly two years after joining DU and 9 years after...

finding out who was too stupid to be president. Is the pressure no longer tolerable where you live? Maybe you have anxiety, or high blood pressure and feel that something has to give or you'll get really ill.

It may be crazy, but maybe this may be just time to take another path inside your head to adjust to this crazy world. I'm not saying I haven't talked about moving (to Canada) with spouse, either, and yeah, I'm white and female.

The trick, I think, is to learn about instability. It IS the normal pattern. That accepted understanding allows YOU to become the stable one during chaos. You cannot escape chaos, and neither can the next guy.

Wherever you have to travel, internally or externally, safe journey, TV

[iamthebandfanman]

293. the world is fucked, so have fun running.

just delaying the inevitable.

also, the racial stuff could be dropped.

its hard for everyone to find a job.

not saying you havent faced discrimination... but damn.

[Greyhound]

297. Hey TwixVoy, best of luck and keep us up to date.

:hi:

[laughingliberal]

301. Best of luck with this. nt

[Third Doctor]

303. I don't blame you.

If I had the means I would do the same thing. I don't know if I was leave permanently but it would help to be on the outside looking in for a while.

[Mike K]

305. I understand the reasons you've given for your -

- unhappiness in and dissatisfaction with America. A kind of social sickness has indeed taken hold in American society. Its earliest stage was first observed by Dr. Erich Fromm in the late 1950s and he refers to it as alienation in his 1960s classic, Escape From Freedom. Social scientists continue to acknowledge the condition as he defined it and the consensus is it's getting worse year by year. So you are not alone in your wish to escape.

However, unless the liquid assets you intend to gather by November are exceptional (in the millions, U.S.), or unless you possess exceptional professional credentials (M.D., etc.), you will not find any European nation to be as welcoming as you apparently expect. You should also understand that racism is by no means confined to the U.S.

[Jakes Progress]

308. Makes me think of those that got out of Europe

before they started the camps. Makes me think of those that got out of Cambodia before Pol Pot. History is like that.

[Wayne in WA State]

309. Don't give them the satisfaction

Abandoning the struggle within the USA to move elsewhere is only going to encourage and empower the RW lunatics. The mainstream media gives them far more coverage than they deserve and far too many on the left are full of gloom and overestimate the weakness on the right. Liberals do have better ideas and bigger hearts and we are going to win in the end. I would encourage you to reconsider, don't ever give the Republicans the satisfaction of making us give up and quit. Never.

[Rex]

310. Well like millions, I don't have the money to do such a thing.

Not that I would leave the country. Oh yeah another country...no thanks.

[cherokeeprogressive]

313. Best of luck to you... Don't let the door hit ya...

You're like a belly button. You're outtie. I hope you live in So. Cal. so there's less traffic when you're gone.

I've been to most of the big cities on four continents... I was always glad to get back home.

C ya.

[tango-tee]

314. I'm in Europe,.

You didn't say which country you're thinking of moving to, but please get in touch with me if you need help or just want to talk. Will be glad to be there for you. Wishing you all the best and: Welcome!

[speedcat]

322. good for you.

and I hope you find a high quality life there among people you can relate to.

Believe me, it's crossed my mind many times. Every time we get in a war lately, for example. Keep us posted on your journeys. :)

[Kind of Blue]

323. I admire you. My dad immigrated to the U.S.

from Nigeria back in the mid '60s and poor dear, coming here was his first real dealing with racism on an in-your-face level and at the same time finding many, many friends of all ethnicity and religions. Anywhere but here some considered you a quitter but elsewhere it would be considered a smart move for a better life - no matter the reason. People emigrate all the time.

The very best of luck to you! And I hope you continue to post from a far. As one coming from an awful period in the U.S., I think it would be a benefit to see how your views change or remain the same over time.

[upi402]

324. We are getting out too

Going to a developing nation with better infrastructure, communications, health care, freedoms, and not run by religious zealots and racists manipulated by the elites, etc etc etc... ad infinitum.

"Democrats" didn't wake up in time. I only wish I could leave tomorrow but have a family.
I've fought, marched, donated, been a DCM and delegate, written letters and emails - and I was pissing in the wind. Sneered at by my sleepy compatriots.


k/r

[OneBlueSky]

329. your choice, of course . . . but if everyone on "our side" decided to leave . . .

we'd just be ceding the country to the Rush-a-billies, and I'm not willing to do that . . . I intend to stay and fight . . .

not being a black man, I can't say I fully understand your perception of the situation, but I certainly hope that there aren't too many who choose flight rather than fight . . . that would ensure the very scenario you fear . . . and with the world so interconnected these days, what happens here will undoubtedly impact the situation in other countries as well . . . so maybe you should think about staying and fighting the reactionary tide while there are still enough of us to make a difference . . . just a thought . . .

whatever your course of action, best of luck in finding what you're looking for . . . if it exists . . .

[dencol]

331. I wish you nothing but the best... seriously.

What scares me most is how education has taken such a slash in funding, when it was already underfunded. This country isn't going to get any better when that happens, so I have doubled my educational efforts with the hopes it will make it easier for me to find meaningful work and a good life in Canada before things get really bad in the US. I say this with the realization that I am a white guy and almost certainly haven't seen the level of discrimination you have, even though I am gay. Life is about the journey, and I am excited for you! I hope you flourish in Europe! =)

[Prism]

332. Yeah, just wait until you see European racism

Every place has its problems. I lived abroad in Western Europe for a number of years. It was a thoroughly enjoyable experience and I'm very glad I did it, but you oughtn't kid yourself - Europe has many of the same problems the U.S. does.

Wait until you see the British tea-baggers in the BNP, or hear people talk about "pakis" or see how self-segregating European societies can be. Wait until you see the gross economic and social inequality between European natives and North African immigrants. Wait until you see the kind of racial disparities that have led to destructive riots in France. Wait until you watch European citizens voting repeatedly on the rights of minorities to express themselves. Wait until you see the xenophobia and nationalism that breaks out over something as simple as a soccer match or pretty much whenever someone even mentions the EU in conversation.

Whenever we're feeling stressed, there's a natural impulse to feel the grass is greener on the other side.

Typically, it isn't.

Also, it is very difficult to emigrate to Europe. Despite what happens in movies, you cannot simply waltz into Western Europe and set up shop. It does not work that way in the slightest. I think liquidating assets upon receiving a simple passport was a very, very unwise decision. It could be years yet before a country approves your status - if they approve you at all.

Still, I hope a potential move is everything you're hoping for. It's best to go into things with one's eyes wide open after serious, in-depth examination of the actual situation rather than the impressions you've been given. I have a hunch you're moving in very ill-advised haste without a working knowledge of what Europe is actually like.

[Scruffy1]

335. If I could I would leave too

61 years old and I'm so sick of this warmongering militaristic, racists, capitalism is god, money is holy shit I could scream.Last year at a protest I heard one my age defending capitalism and realized Americans are too brainwashed to connect the dots. Amazing. All this bs is just the normal product of a capitalist society.3000 advertising messages a day have rotted the minds beyond repair. Lets see- Viet Nam-big profits for war contractors, Granada Panama, Guatamala-I helped hide refugees from Reagan and Norths murderers, El Salvador-more of the same. First Iraq War-wholesale slaughter of fleeing sunnis- second Gulf War-eight years of war crimes leaving a million dead and Dick and Liz Cheney richer.Afghanistan-a complete fiasco also. All this while the poverty rates climb sky high and only the wealthy prosper.

[BigBearJohn]

338. Good luck. I'm not far behind you.

[JTFrog]

341. Good luck. Hope you are independently wealthy.

Not many developed countries are eager to take in immigrants unless they are already well established.

I tried to migrate to Canada when * was pResident. But without a highly specialized skill set or an inheritance, that was a short lived dream and I had to come back after six months.

The crazy folks will always be dumbfuck crazy, but I don't feel the urge to flee like I did when the dumbfuck crazy was actually in charge.

:shrug:

[newfie11]

342. Good luck to you

I wish we could leave also. I really am concerned about the way this country is headed.

[greiner3]

344. I have started the process to try to send my adult children;

Out of the country; Brazil or Australia. Europe will collapse once the conveyor belt stops functioning.

[muriel_volestrangler]

364. You are kidding, aren't you?

You're sending adults of of the country? You are trying to exile your own children?

[TexasObserver]

345. Alarmist nonsense.

You've been preaching "head for the hills, it's all going to hell and society in the US will break down entirely" ever since Obama took office. What have been your talking points?

BUY GOLD - check

SELL U.S. HOLDINGS - check

GET GUNS AND AMMO - check

GET FOOD AND SURVIVIAL SUPPLIES - check

How are your postings and this alleged action by you any different that the rantings of the most extreme teabaggers? This kind of end times alarmist dogma has been around since the John Birch Society pushed them 50 years ago.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

350. LOL

Because politics can't be plotted on a straight plane but on a circle with those on the far left and those on the far right meeting somewhere in the middle.

Losing the House and Senate would be a terrible thing but I attribute it more to dissatisfaction with the economy than a right wing putsch. People are dissatisfied with the economy and the party in power is a convenient target regardless of whether or not they are to blame.

If McInSane was president now I could see the Dems have 300+ Congresspersons and 70+ senators.

[deutsey]

349. I have to say that I do admire Americans I know who live abroad

Where they live certainly aren't utopias, but they don't have the toxic political environment we have here and one of them who lives in Holland really seems to have it nice. I've thought how I could join them, but can't find a viable way to do so.

[Prometheus Bound]

351. Do it man! There's a lot of fascinating places in this world.

I love Canada, my country, but I left 18 years ago thinking I'd experience another part of the world for a while, and I'm still here on the other side of the world living in the world's ultimate capitalist city -- with universal healthcare!

[DrCory]

367. Where In China Are You Living? N/T

[amyrose2712]

352. Good for you.

Most of me wishes I was right behind you. Family and fear keeps me here.

[feslen]

379. yup, good luck to you

100% with this most of the replies, even the harsh ones and the original post. I wish I could leave too...don't like the looks of what's coming, but sometimes we have to stick it out if we can.

unfortunately, I can't leave...and good thing I live in rural areas where no one bothers me anyway.

[feslen]

382. yup, good luck to you

100% with this most of the replies, even the harsh ones and the original post. I wish I could leave too...don't like the looks of what's coming, but sometimes we have to stick it out if we can.

unfortunately, I can't leave...and good thing I live in rural areas where no one bothers me anyway.

[ampad]

353. I gave this thread a rec

For the sheer irony of some of the responses you have gotten here. The man states that one of the reasons he is leaving is because some Dems plan to sit out the November election. So all of you that are encouraging the man because of your Obama hate still don't fucking get it. I bet you a dime a dozen that many of those who state they are going to sit out the November election are sitting right here in this forum. I'm also willing to bet that many of you who are white that plan on sitting out this election have no idea what it means to be a black person in this country. No you have not fucking clue because you have the luxury to sit here and piss and moan on a message board about: how far to the right we are going, Obama is not moving fast enough, I hate the health care bill. Good god, some of us wish we had the fucking luxury to complain about those things; to complain that our president is not "good enough" or "fast enough". I believe what the poster is trying to convey is that some of us do not have that luxury. That being the brown folks (especially blacks) in this country. Yet I see many posters that do not like the Obama administration encouraging this man to go. As if the man states that he is unhappy with Obama which he did not. He states that as a black man he is afraid of the hate rising in this country, as he probably should be. He states that he fears that this will happen because of the SCOTUS decision and the fact that many of you plan to sit out the elections. Willing to sacrifice this country to repgis so you can say I told you so come the next election. When a true repgig (not what you believe Obama is) gets into the white house we have seen nothing yet. Whoever it will be will probably make Bush look tame. I mean why not? Fucking corporations can openly buy him or her out in the open now. We all know how repigs like that. "Kenny boy". With that I said I think all minorities should be afraid. Once those tea baggers idiots win they will feel empowered. At the end of the day those assholes will take their anger out on the public.

OP, if you feel you must go then I wish you the best of luck. I get what you are saying and I feel the hate in the air. Many of them will probably sit it out this November. They will sit it out just so that they can come to this message board and say "see I told you so" As I said before it must be nice to have that luxury. Good luck to you and yours. If I did not have obligations I would of left this fucking country a long time ago. You are going to find white privilege and hate anywhere that you go in this world. It is just the way it is. However, I think that the good ol USA has a lock on the racism and white privilege. No other country can do it like we can.

[Laura PourMeADrink]

354. I agree and good luck - and if you get sick - you will be lucky enough

to be able to call a doctor to come to your house! and you will be lucky enough to be around people who actually read and walk and sit and talk to each other about meaningful things. I envy you.

What happened to this country was that people are still stupid, ignorant, and racist. Obama brought them together for a time. But the right wing leaders mobilized them (starting with hate monger Palin), took advantage of their ignorance, ignited their hate. Labeled it teabagging and that somehow made it ok. Now Palin is touring the country keeping it alive. Worse mistake Obama and Dems made was announcing they were 'changing everything" about healthcare. Gave them months and months to mobilize and push people against it. The much more savvy thing would have been to quietly put through pieces - just like BushCo did to help the rich.

[whogasa736]

356. When you are in France

see if you can get a beer, and mayo for your fries . And to top it off get a Royale /w cheese. Good Luck

[Earth Bound Misfit]

361. See ya. n/t

[Echo In Light]

363. Best of luck to you & yours

[Echo In Light]

365. Official Culture - A Natural State of Psychopathy?

By Laura Knight-Jadczyk

The subject of the extremely narrow point of view of most Americans as opposed to the majority of other peoples in the world came up in a conversation the other day. The people having the conversation were, as it happens, mostly American. One of them commented that Americans had been "programmed" to their point of view by mass media propaganda for a very long time and that it was simply a very normal part of American life and basically, always had been. She concluded, "Whoever denies it is either ignorant or has an agenda."

That may be so. It may be true that the "pied pipers" of denial have an agenda. But what, then, does one say or do about the ignorance of the vast majority of Americans? Why and how is it that the trap of Fascism is closing on them before their very eyes and no matter how many voices - the number is increasing every day - are raised to point out this danger, they simply do not seem to get it?

The conversation continued with a comment from another individual suggesting that one must take into account how effective the "official culture" actually is in the US. It isn't just a question of ignorance, but a question of the long-term thoroughness of the propagandizing that began in the early days of the last century. It was proposed that this propaganda is so complete that not only are most people in the US ignorant of what is taking place on the US political scene, and in the world as a direct result of US policy, they are ignorant of the fact that they are ignorant. They have been inculcated with the view that their view is the only "right" one" and, consequently, they really "don't know any better". In short: "What do you do if you don't know that you don't know something?"

Well, the thing is, at some point in time, no matter how thorough the programming has been, most people will eventually end up coming across some bit or piece of information that isn't going to quite "jibe" with the "official culture;" it isn't going to "fit" in with their view of reality, with what they have been taught, and it is usually just a little bit uncomfortable when this happens. Or it ought to be.

My question is, why is complete denial, even aggressive behavior in some instances, the reaction of some when the objective facts of reality are pointed out to them, while there are others who react with an increased sense of curiosity, an increased desire for additional information?

Why do some shun knowledge and others crave it?

Why do some resist the programming, and others welcome it?

It is as though with some people - those who most avidly embrace the "we are right" view - have minds that are closed from the very get-go, and they are entirely incapable of opening them, even just a crack. There is no curiosity in them. There are no questions in their minds. There are no "what ifs?" or "maybes".

It seems to me that the propaganda of the Official Culture then, while quite effective, may not be the sole reason why so many Americans are apathetic when it comes to what their government is doing, both in the US and abroad. It seems as though there may be some distinct differences in human beings at a very basic level that needs to be considered here.

In my opinion, (KAH), all of us who were raised in the US have been duped via this Official Culture mind control imposed through the educational system and the mass media. But there are some of us who seem to have the ability to question, to wonder, to open our minds to other possibilities - even if they seem far-fetched. And invariably, this opening of the mind to other views has been enriching and rewarding on many levels, not the least of which is a humanitarian view of all peoples and cultures.

Is being able to open your mind and ask questions just a matter of "courage?" Is a closed mind simply evidence of being a coward? Is resistance to the "official culture" a consequence of a fundamental "rebellious nature" and are those who "go along with the crowd" better "team players," even if the team is on the moral low-road?

Is the difference one that exists between people who are willing to face the "terror of the situation" and those who simply cannot live in the state of tension produced by having to make moral decisions themselves?

Or, is there something deeper here? If so, what is it? And whatever it is, why is it so "active" in the present day and time? What is the "fog" that surrounds America and the minds of its people?

In the past, I have encountered many people who I considered to be open-minded, but ultimately discovered that they are not so when they absolutely refuse to even admit the possibility of what is so obvious to so many intelligent and compassionate people. For example, the obvious psychopathy of Bush and other world leaders, certainly reveals to us that the "terror of the situation" is manifesting on quite a grander scale than any of us might have dreamed possible a few years ago. There it is. Clues and signs everywhere. It's as plain as the nose on your face. But most Americans would rather cut off that nose with the result that they spite the face.

It is terrifying enough when one realizes that the Bush Reich and other elite groups around the globe are wreaking havoc on the planet without regard for life in any form, apart from their own, but when we also have to face the fact that there are so many people out there, that - even when faced with the certain facts of this global tinder- box - either cannot see it or WILL not see it, well, that makes this situation just a little bit more terrifying.

Again, we return to the problem: what is WRONG with Americans?

We already know that the "Land of the Free" is gone, but what about the "Home of the Brave?" It never takes courage to support a bully - but it takes a LOT of courage to stand up against one. Has America lost that courage that gave them the intestinal fortitude to stand up to the most mighty military power in the world of the time - England - to declare their independence from bullies and to stand for what was right? What happened to "Give me liberty or give me death?" Because surely America has chosen death in giving up their liberty!

When I was growing up in the West, my brothers and I were subjected to very intense "racist attitudes" from our step-parents. We lived in a small farming-ranching community where that sort of belief system is generally passed on from one generation to the next and nobody ever really questions it.

However, at a very early age, I instinctively rebelled against this view of the world. It seems that I had a sort of natural, intrinsic love, respect and a fascination for other cultures and peoples. Of course, it drove my step-parents CRAZY. There was a lot of tension between us because of this.

My love for and curiosity about other cultures led me to travel extensively as I grew up. I was curious; I wanted to explore; I wanted to KNOW. When I eventually married outside my own culture, well, I had crossed the line and all contact with my family had to be terminated. The price they were willing to pay for their racist beliefs was high - in my opinion - moreso for them than for me, though certainly this rejection was painful.

My point is, I resisted this racist program intensely. It was all around me, in the town, the schools, the church we attended. But I wanted no part of it. It seems that it went against my very nature. But for others, it seemed very "natural" to "fall for" this cultural programming - to be "comfortable" within a milieu that excluded nearly everyone else as human beings.

Is it just "ignorance?" Are Americans just ignorant and ignorant of their own ignorance? Is this ignorance strictly due to "official culture programming" - programming that seems to be designed to encourage ignorance?

Again it seems as though there may be two different types of people and two different ways to deal with the question of one's own ignorance.

Some individuals, when faced with certain facts about their own ignorance, deny vehemently that they ARE ignorant and resort to platitudes and cliches even including that old saw about the difference between "book learning" and "common sense." Others, when confronted with their own ignorance, immediately set about rectifying it no matter how painful it might be.

When I first moved abroad at the age of 21, I quickly realized that I was, like most Americans, abysmally ignorant with regard to politics. I discovered - to my great dismay - that in my host country, most of the average people around me - shopkeepers, hairdressers, taxi-drivers - knew more about what was going on in the USA and the rest of the world than I did; a LOT more! I had no IDEA of the things that were going on that were common knowledge to other peoples in the world. And here, it wasn't simply a matter of having a different opinion than others. It was a matter of an almost complete lack of INFORMATION within the very country that promotes democracy as the rule of an "informed citizenry." I realized with striking clarity exactly how ignorant I was at that point, and I admitted it to myself. Further, I was embarrassed for myself and other Americans who were seen (rightly so) as equally ignorant and "in the dark" politically and culturally speaking. BUT, due to this embarrassment and realization of the extraordinary extent of my ignorance, I determined to do something about it.

But there are so many Americans who - when faced with similar situations, faced with their own ignorance - deny it aggressively. And generally, the "last word" for them is: "Oh, he/she doesn't know what the hell they are talking about! They're 'foreigners'." And that's the key: "foreigners."

"Foreigners" can't possibly know anything because they aren't American. And Americans, by default of having the most bombs on the planet, always "know" what's up. Or, at the very least, their leaders do and we just don't have to think about such things. That's what we elect our leaders for, isn't it? So they will handle all that boring and tedious political stuff and leave us alone to watch "Survivor" and the Super Bowl and wash our new SUV so that the Joneses can be green with envy!

And they leave it at that. It's the preferred way to handle all such questions. Forget the entire issue of an "informed citizenry" and any possible outrage that citizens of the US are not only NOT informed, they are being deliberately DIS-informed!

They don't even realize that "Survivor" is programming them to the very attitudes that are being displayed by their leaders - normalizing it, so to say - and at the present moment these attitude are being manifested in their own lives in a direct and terrifying way. For many in the US, their future is that there won't be any more Super Bowls, and the SUV certainly doesn't get enough gas mileage to get them far enough away from the terror that will confront them when they are "voted off the island" in the global game of "Survivor."

Why does this condition exist? Why are so many people so susceptible to the "official culture" and the mass media propaganda? Why are so many people willing slaves to it? And why do some others - once the questions have been raised - begin to seek the knowledge that reveals the man behind the curtain?

Perhaps it is more than simply a matter of very clever and intense programming. Perhaps it is also a matter of the nature of a person?

LKJ: In recent times, I have considered many ideas in an attempt to answer this question. The members of the Quantum Future School have been engaged in studying psychopathy and pseudo-psychopathy for about two years now. This has certainly prepared most of us to be able to see the man behind the curtain, or, in this case, behind the "mask of sanity." But it still doesn't answer the question as to why psychopathic behavior seems to be so widespread in the US. (That is not to say that it doesn't exist everywhere - that's a given.)

Linda Mealey of the Department of Psychology at the College of St. Benedict in St. Joseph, Minnesota, has recently proposed certain ideas in her paper: The Sociobiology of Sociopathy: An Integrated Evolutionary Model. These ideas address the increase in psychopathy in American culture by suggesting that in a competitive society - capitalism, for example - psychopathy is adaptive and likely to increase. She writes:

I have thus far argued that some individuals seem to have a genotype that disposes them to .

frequency-dependent, genetically based, individual differences in employment of life strategies. always appear in every culture, no matter what the socio-cultural conditions. <...>

Competition increases the use of antisocial and Machiavellian strategies and can counteract pro-social behavior…

Some cultures encourage competitiveness more than others and these differences in social values vary both temporally and cross-culturally. <...> Across both dimensions, high levels of competitiveness are associated with high crime rates and Machiavellianism.

High populaton density, an indirect form of competition, is also associated with reduced pro-social behavior and increased anti-social behavior. <...>

The conclusion is that the American way of life has optimized the survival of psychopaths with the consequence that it is an adaptive "life strategy" that is extremely successful in American society, and thus has increased in the population in strictly genetic terms. What is more, as a consequence of a society that is adaptive for psychopathy, many individuals who are NOT genetic psychopaths have similarly adapted, becoming "effective" psychopaths, or "secondary sociopaths."

(Many experts differentiate between primary and secondary sociopaths. The first is a sociopath because they have the "genes" and the second is more or less "created" by their environment of victimization. Other experts refer to these two categories as "psychopaths" for the genetic variety and "sociopaths" for the reactive variety. We prefer this latter distinction.)

Of course, because they are not intellectually handicapped, these individuals will progress normally in terms of cognitive development and will acquire a theory of mind. Their theories, however, will be formulated purely in instrumental terms , without access to the empathic understanding that most of us rely on so much of the time.

They may become excellent predictors of others' behavior, unhandicapped by the "intrusiveness" of emotion, acting, as do professional gamblers, solely on nomothetic laws and actuarial data rather than on hunches and feelings.

In determining how to "play" in the social encounters of everyday life, they will use a pure cost-benefit approach based on immediate personal outcomes, with no "accounting" for the emotional reactions of the others with whom they are dealing.

Without any real love to "commit" them to cooperation, without any anxiety to prevent fear of "defection," without guilt to inspire repentance, they are free to continually play for the short-term benefit.

At the same time, because changes in gene frequencies in the population would not be able to keep pace with the fast-changing parameters of social interactions, an additional fluctuating proportion of sociopathy should result because, in a society of , the environmental circumstances make an antisocial strategy of life more profitable than a pro-social one.

In other words, in a world of psychopaths, those who are not genetic psychopaths, are induced to behave like psychopaths simply to survive. When the rules are set up to make a society "adaptive" to psychopathy, it makes psychopaths of everyone.

Now, do not be fooled by the word "psychopath." Many individuals equate this term with mass murderers or "foaming at the mouth" madmen. By any name, this dangerous personality disorder presents three unsettling realities: Its prevalence seems to be increasing, it is far more common than previously thought, and there is no cure.

What makes the psychopath so frightening and dangerous is that he or she wears a completely convincing "Mask of Sanity". This may at first make such a person utterly persuasive and compellingly healthy, according to psychiatrist Harvey Cleckley. Dr. Cleckey was first to describe the key symptoms of the disorder.

Psychopaths can be very sociable, even though they are antisocial behind their "mask" in the sense that their "emotions" are completely fake. They are masters at manipulating others for their personal gain. Their charm, in fact, is legendary. "As a therapist, you run across this all of the time, where a man is mysteriously controlled by a sociopath," explains psychologist Melvin Sinder, co-author of Smart Men Bad Choices.

Psychopaths are experts at using people. They can ask anything of anyone without embarassment and because of their outgoing seducing friendliness, their use of "poor innocent me! I am such a GOOD person and I have been treated so BADLY!" the victim invariably gets sucked into giving the psychopath what they ask for - no matter how outrageous.

Psychopaths are masters at faking emotions in order to manipulate others. One psychologist reported that if you actually catch them in the act of committing a crime, or telling a lie, "they will immediately justify their actions by self pity and blaming another, by creating a heart-rending scene of faked emotional feelings." These fake emotions are only for effect, as the careful observer will note. The Psychopath considers getting their way or getting out of trouble using faked emotions as a victory over another person.

Psychopaths are incapable of feeling concern or remorse for the consequences of their actions. They can calmly rationalize their insensitive and bizarre behavior all the while attributing malice to everyone but themselves. When caught in a lie, they will manipulate others or stories to their own advantage without any fear of being found out - even if it is obvious to everyone around them that they WILL be found out.

Psychopaths cannot feel fear for themselves, much less empathy for others. Most normal people, when they are about to do something dangerous, illegal, or immoral, feel a rush of worry, nervousness, or fear. Guilt may overwhelm them and prevent them from even committing the deed.

The psychopath feels little or nothing.

As a result, the threat of punishment, even painful punishment is a laughing matter for the psychopath. They can repeat the same destructive acts without skipping a heartbeat, as well as seek thrills and dangers without regard for possible risks. This is called "hypoarousal." That is, very little - if anything - really arouses them; they are more machine-like than human-like.

The psychopath seems to be full of something akin to deep greed. They manifest this inner state in many ways. One of the most common ways is to steal something of value to their victim (valuables), or to hurt/slander the victim or something or someone the victim loves. In the psychopath's mind, this is justified because the victim crossed him, did not give him what he wanted, or rejected him (or her).

Psychopaths lie for the sake of lying. They can convey the deepest hear- felt message without meaning a word of it. They can also tell the most outrageous stories simply in order to be at the center of attention and to get what they want.

An example is told by a researcher in psychopathy: Melissa was a girl that was very attractive and very outgoing. She met with an attorney regarding getting a divorce from her husband and convinced the attorney that her husband was ruining her life.

The attorney felt sorry for her as she carried on about the abuse she had suffered. She was so convincing, that the attorney wanted to help her personally. With her seductive charisma, he became hopelessly infatuated and began to date Melissa. At a certain point, the attorney refused to take illegal and immoral actions against her estranged husband that Melissa requested.

At this point, she filed sexual harassment charges against the attorney to try to force him to do what she wanted. She didn't realize that, by doing this, she had exposed herself for what she was and there was no possibility that the attorney was going to bow to her blackmail pressures. After much pain and heart break all around, Melissa dropped the law suit and moved to another state. The attorney commented that he had never been so emotionally overwhelmed in his entire life.

Indeed, using their "emotional performances," these individuals can be truly overwhelming. Their charisma can be so inspiring - their emotion so deep and sincere-seeming - that people just want to be around them, want to help them, want to give all and support such a noble, suffering being. What is generally not seen by the victim is that they are feeding an endless internal hunger for control, excitement and ego-recognition.

The psychopath is obsessed with control even if they give the impression of being helpless. Their pretense to emotional sensitivity is really part of their control function: The higher the level of belief in the psychopath that can be induced in their victim through their dramas, the more "control" the psychopath believes they have. And in fact, this is true. They DO have control when others believe their lies. Sadly, the degree of belief, the degree of "submission" to this control via false representation, generally produces so much pain when the truth is glimpsed that the victim would prefer to continue in the lie than face the fact that they have been duped. The psychopath counts on this. It is part of their "actuarial calculations." It gives them a feeling of power.

It is all too easy to fall under the spell of the charismatic psychopath. There are many who do the psychopath's bidding without realizing that they have been subtly and cleverly controlled. They can even be manipulated to perform criminal acts, or acts of sabotage against another - innocent - person on behalf of the psychopath. Very often, when this is realized by the victim, that they have caused suffering in innocent people at the behest of a liar, again they prefer to deny this than to face up to the truth of their own perfidy and gullibility.

Psychopathic behavior seems to be on the rise because of the very nature of American capitalistic society. The great hustlers, charmers, and self-promoters in the sales fields are perfect examples of where the psychopath can thrive. The entertainment industry, the sports industry, the corporate world in a Capitalistic system, are all areas where psychopaths naturally rise to the top. Some observers believe that there is a psychological continuum between psychopaths (who tend to be professionally unsuccessful) and narcissistic entrepreneurs (who are successful), because these two groups share the highly developed skill of manipulating others for their own gain. It is now being thought that they are actually the "same" but that the "unsuccessful" psychopath is merely flawed in their calculating abilities. They are unable to recalculate based on new actuarial data. Successful Narcissists might seem to be perfectly able to add to their actuarial database and "recalculate" and shift course and develop new subroutines based on ongoing input.

In general, the successful psychopath "computes" how much they can get away with in a cost-benefit ratio of the alternatives. Among the factors that they consider as most important are money, power, and gratification of negative desires. They are not motivated by such social reinforcment as praise or future benefits. Studies have been done that show locking up a psychopath has absolutely no effect on them in terms of modifying their life strategies. In fact, in is shown to make them worse. Effectively, when locked up, psychopaths just simply learn how to be better psychopaths.

Since the psychopath bases their activities designed to get what they want on their particular "theory of mind," it is instructive to have a look at this issue. Having a "theory of mind" allows an individual to impute mental states (thoughts, perceptions, and feelings) not only to oneself, but also to other individuals. It is, in effect, a tool that helps us predict the behavior of others. The most successful individuals are those who most accurately predict what another person will do given a certain set of circumstances. In the present day, we have Game Theory which is being used to model many social problems including psychopathy.

When two individuals interact with each other, each must decide what to do without knowledge of what the other is doing. Imagine that the two players are the government and the public. In the following model, each of the players faces only a binary choice: to behave ethically either in making laws or in obeying them.

The assumption is that both players are informed about everything except the level of ethical behavior of the other. They know what it means to act ethically, and they know the consequences of being exposed as unethical.

There are three elements to the game. 1) The players, 2) the strategies available to either of them, and 3) the payoff each player receives for each possible combination of strategies.

In a legal regime, one party is obliged to compensate the other for damages under certain conditions but not under others. We are going to imagine a regime wherein the government is never liable for losses suffered by the public because of its unethical behavior - instead, the public has to pay for the damages inflicted by the government due to unethical behavior.

The way the payoffs are represented is generally in terms of money. That is, how much investment does each player have to make in ethical behavior and how much payoff does each player receive for his investment.

In this model, behaving ethically, according to standards of social values that are considered the "norm," costs each player $10.00. When law detrimental to the public is passed, it costs the public $100.00. We take it as a given that such laws will be passed unless both players behave ethically.

Next, we assume that the likelihood of a detrimental law being passed in the event that both the public and the government are behaving ethically is a one-in-ten chance.

In a legal regime in which the government is never held responsible for its unethical behavior, and if neither the government nor the public behave ethically, the government enjoys a payoff of $0. and the public is out $100 when a law detrimental to the public is passed.

If both "invest" in ethical behavior, the government has a payoff of minus $10. (the cost of behaving ethically) and the public is out minus $20. which is the $10. invested in being ethical PLUS the $10. of the one-in-ten chance of a $100. loss incurred if a detrimental law is passed.

If the government behaves ethically and the public does not, resulting in the passing of a law detrimental to the populace, the government is out the $10. invested in being ethical and the public is out $100.

If the government does not behave ethically, and the public does, the government has a payoff of $0. and the public is out $110 which is the "cost of being ethical" added to the losses suffered when the government passes detrimental laws. Modeled in a Game Theory Bi-matrix, it looks like this, with the two numbers representing the "payoff" to the people - the left number in each pair - and government - the right number in each pair.

Government
No Ethics Ethical
No Ethics -100, 0 -100, -10
Society/People
Ethical -110, 0 -20, -10


In short, in this game, the government always does better by not being ethical and we can predict the government's choice of strategy because there is a single strategy - no ethics - that is better for the government no matter what choice the public makes. This is a "strictly dominant strategy," or a strategy that is the best choice for the player no matter what choices are made by the other player.

What is even worse is the fact that the public is PENALIZED for behaving ethically. Since we know that the government, in the above regime, will never behave ethically because it is the dominant strategy, we find that ethical behavior on the part of the public actually costs MORE than unethical behavior.

In short, psychopathic behavior is actually a POSITIVE ADAPTATION in such a regime.

The public, as you see, cannot even minimize their losses by behaving ethically. It costs them $110. to be ethical, and only $100. to not be ethical.

Now, just substitute "psychopath" in the place of the government and non-psychopath in the place of the public, and you begin to understand why the psychopath will always be a psychopath. If the "payoff" is emotional pain of being hurt, or shame for being exposed, in the world of the psychopath, that consequence simply does not exist just as in the legal regime created above, the government is never responsible for unethical behavior. The psychopath lives in a world in which it is like a government that is never held responsible for behavior that is detrimental to others. It's that simple. And the form game above will tell you why psychopaths in the population, as well as in government, are able to induce the public to accept laws that are detrimental. It simply isn't worth it to be ethical. If you go along with the psychopath, you lose. If you resist the psychopath, you lose even more.

The is unfamiliar with the primary facts or data of what might be called personal values and is altogether incapable of understanding such matters. It is impossible for him to take even a slight interest in the tragedy or joy or the striving of humanity as presented in serious literature or art. He is also indifferent to all these matters in life itself. Beauty and ugliness, except in a very superficial sense, goodness, evil, love, horror, and humour have no actual meaning, no power to move him. He is, furthermore, lacking in the ability to see that others are moved. It is as though he were colour-blind, despite his sharp intelligence, to this aspect of human existence. It cannot be explained to him because there is nothing in his orbit of awareness that can bridge the gap with comparison. He can repeat the words and say glibly that he understands, and there is no way for him to realize that he does not understand.
It also means that such a person is free to choose to do things that are potentially self-destructive without giving a single indication to another "player" that his or her choice is based entirely on a delusion. Very often, they "win" because of the sheer boldness of their actions which is unrestricted by conscience which is a construct of emotions.

It's like a poker player who has absolutely nothing in his hand, but because he is so intent on winning, and is so unmoved by the possibility of losing because lying produces absolutely no internal, emotional reaction of fear of being discovered or the potential shame or disaster inherent in such an event, is able to bluff so convincingly that the other players - any of whom might have a winning hand, fold and walk away because they are convinced by the psychopath's confidence that he must have the winning hand of all time.

Only he doesn't.

And this means that the psychopath's strength is also his Achilles heel. Once he has been spotted, identified, understood, he no longer has the power to bluff. Once knowledge enters the game, the psychopath is exposed, and has no more ability to "con" the other players. The sad part is: he also has no ability to learn from this experience anything other than how to make his bluff better and more convincing next time. The psychopath never gets mad because he is caught in a lie; he is only concerned with "damage control" in terms of his ability to continue to con others.

Societies can be considered as "players" in the psychopath's game model.

The past behavior of a society will be used by the psychopath to predict the future behavior of that society. Like an individual player, a society will have a certain probability of detecting deception and a more or less accurate memory of who has cheated on them in the past, as well as a developed or not developed proclivity to retaliate against a liar and cheater. Since the psychopath is using an actuarial approach to assess the costs and benefits of different behaviors (just how much can he get away with), it is the actual past behavior of the society which will go into his calculations rather than any risk assessments based on any "fears or anxieties" of being caught and punished that empathic people would feel in anticipation of doing something illegal.

Thus, in order to reduce psychopathic behavior in society and in government, a society MUST establish and enforce a reputation for high rates of detection of deception and identification of liars, and a willingness to retaliate. In other words, it must establish a successful strategy of deterrence.

Since the psychopath is particularly unable to make decisions based on future consequences, and is able only to focus attention on immediate gratification - short term goals - it is possible that such individuals can be dealt with by establishing a history of dealing out swift social retaliation. That is, identifying and punishing liars and cheaters must be both immediate and predictable that it will be immediate.

And here we come to the issue: concerning the real-world, human social interactions on a large scale, reducing psychopathy in our leaders depends upon expanding society's collective memory of individual players' past behavior.

Any reasonable scan of the news will reveal that lies and cheating are not "covered up" as thoroughly as American apologists would like to think.

Even the less well-informed Americans have some idea that there was certainly something fishy about the investigation into the assassination of JFK. In recent years, the man in charge of the Warren Commission, Gerald Ford, also a former president, admitted to "cheating" on the report.

Then, there was Watergate followed by the Iran-Contra affair, not to mention "Monica-gate." And here we are just hitting some highlights familiar to all Americans.

What consequences did the cheaters of society suffer?

None to speak of. In fact, in nearly every case, they were rewarded handsomely with those things of value to the psychopath: money and material goods. If anyone thinks they were shamed by public exposure, think again!

But what is of CRUCIAL interest here is the fact that the American people have simply NOT responded to the revelations of lies in government with any outrage that could be considered more than token. At the present time, there isn't even "token outrage."

Don't you find that odd?

But we have already noted the reason: the American way of life has optimized the survival of psychopathy and in a world of psychopaths, those who are not genetic psychopaths, are induced to behave like psychopaths simply to survive. When the rules are set up to make a society "adaptive" to psychopathy, it makes psychopaths of everyone. As a consequence, a very large number of Americans are effective sociopaths. (Here we use "sociopath" as a designation of those individuals who are not genetic psychopaths.)

And so, we have George Bush and the Third Reich calculating how much they can get away with by looking at the history of the reactions of the American People to cheating.

There aren't any because the system is adaptive to psychopathy. In other words, Americans support Bush and his agenda because most of them are LIKE him.

But that is not because they are ALL born that way. It is because psychopathy is almost required to survive in Competitive, Capitalistic America.

As a society gets larger and more competitive, individuals become more anonymous and more Machiavellian. Social stratification and segregation leads to feelings of inferiority, pessimism and depression among the have-nots, and this promotes the use of "cheating strategies" in life which then makes the environment more adaptive for psychopathy in general.

Psychopathic behavior among non-genetic psychopaths could be viewed as a functional method of obtaining desirable resources, increasing an individual's status in a local group, and even a means of providing stimulation that socially and financially successful people find in acceptable physical and intellectual challenges. In other words, the psychopath is a bored and frustrated sensation-seeker who "does not have the intellectual capacitiy to amuse and occupy himself" internally. Such individuals may begin their lives in the lower socio-economic levels, but they often rise to the top.

In America, a great many households are affected by the fact that work, divorce, or both, have removed one or both parents from interaction with their children for much of the day. This is a consequence of Capitalistic economics.

When the parents are absent, or even when one is present but not in possession of sufficient knowledge or information, children are left to the mercies of their peers, a culture shaped by the media. Armed with joysticks and TV remotes, children are guided from South Park and Jerry Springer to Mortal Kombat on Nintendo. Normal kids become desensitized to violence. More-susceptible kids - children with a genetic inheritance of psychopathy - are pushed toward a dangerous mental precipice. Meanwhile, the government is regularly passing laws, on the demand of parents and the psychological community, designed to avoid imposing consequences on junior's violent behavior.

As for media violence, few researchers continue to try to dispute that bloodshed on TV and in the movies has an effect on the kids who witness it. Added to the mix now are video games structured around models of hunting and killing. Engaged by graphics, children learn to associate spurts of "blood" with the primal gratification of scoring a "win."

Again, economics controls the reality.

While everyone will readily admit that there is probably too much violence on television and that the ads are probably pure balderdash, very few people have a real conception of the precise nature and extent of the hypnotic influence of the media. Still fewer have any idea of the purposes behind this inducement. Wallace and Wallechinsky write in The People's Almanac:

"After World War II, television flourished... Psychologists and sociologists were brought in to study human nature in relation to selling; in other words, to figure out how to manipulate people without their feeling manipulated. Dr. Ernest Dichter, President of the Institute for Motivational Research made a statement in 1941... 'the successful ad agency manipulates human motivations and desires and develops a need for goods with which the public has at one time been unfamiliar -- perhaps even undesirous of purchasing.
"Discussing the influence of television, Daniel Boorstin wrote:

'Here at last is a supermarket of surrogate experience. Successful programming offers entertainment -- under the guise of instruction; instruction -- under the guise of entertainment; political persuasion -- with the appeal of advertising; and advertising -- with the appeal of drama.'

"Programed television serves not only to spread acquiescence and conformity, but it represents a deliberate industry approach."

Aside from the fact that television has been conjectured to be extremely detrimental to children and that it is now thought that most of the deteriorating aspects of society can be attributed to the decaying values portrayed on television, there is a deeper and more insidious effect upon the human psyche. As quoted, it is a planned and deliberate manipulation to spread acquiescence and conformity and to hypnotize the masses to submit to the authority of the masters of economics through their false prophet, the television.

Allen Funt, host of a popular show, Candid Camera, was once asked what was the most disturbing thing he had learned about people in his years of dealing with them through the media. His response was chilling in its ramifications:

"The worst thing, and I see it over and over, is how easily people can be led by any kind of authority figure, or even the most minimal kinds of authority. A well dressed man walks up the down escalator and most people will turn around and try desperately to go up also... We put up a sign on the road, 'Delaware Closed Today'. Motorists didn't even question it. Instead they asked: 'Is Jersey open?'"
A picture is forming of a deliberately contrived society of televised conformity, literate and creative inadequacy, and social unrest and decadence. It is apparent that the media is in charge of propagating these conditions, and the media is controlled by what?

Capitalistic, competitive Economics.

It would seem that the motivation masters would, in the interests of their industrial clients, plan programming to bring about beneficial societal conditions - which they could, in fact, do. It is apparent that the final authority on televised programming is in the hands of the advertisers, backed by the industries whose products are being sold. With all the psychological input to which they have access, it would seem that they utilize programming to correct societal conditions which cost them money. Over 25 billion dollars a year is spent to teach workers to read and write, after graduating from the combined effects of a public school system and the television. It is accepted that the burgeoning crime rate, which also costs these industrial giants vast sums of money, is mostly attributable to the frustrations and dissatisfactions engendered by the false view of reality presented over the television.

Why don't they use their financial resources to back the motivation masters to figure out how to present programming which could effect positive changes?

Can it be that the conditions of society, including the programed response to "minimal signs of authority" are planned? Would anyone care to suggest that the figures and studies relating to the detrimental influence of programming is not available to them and that they don't realize that it is costing them money? If that is the case, then they are too stupid to be arbiters of our values and we should disregard them entirely in any event. If it is not the case, then we must assume that there is an object to this manipulation.

There is much evidence to support the idea that this purpose, or the object of this manipulation, is to create psychological and social disunity - social psychopathy - sufficient to permit the instituting of a totalitarian government at the behest of the people. It is further theorized that the "wealthy elite" seek to control the entire world from behind the scenes and it is to this end that they mastermind and fund the various actions which appear to the masses as political and international "accidents".

FDR. said:

"Nothing in politics ever happens by accident; if it happens, you can bet it was planned!"
And he was in a position to know.

There is much evidence to support the notion that wars are fomented and fought to redistribute these balances of financial power behind the scenes and that, though our fathers, brother, grandfathers, uncles, cousins and sons die in these actions, they are merely games of "International Relations" played by those whose money and position give them absolute power to shape our reality to some nefarious end.

The psychic stresses of our world are right in the home. There they can easily act on any kid who believes that "the world has wronged me" - a sentiment spoken from the reality of existence - a reality created by economic pressures instituted via Game Theory.

Is there a solution?

The obvious solution would be a world in which, at the very least, the psychopath - in government or in society - would be forced to be responsible for unethical behavior. But game-theory modeling demonstrates that selfishness is always the most profitable strategy possible for replicating units.

Could it ever be an evolutionarily stable strategy for people to be innately unselfish?

On the whole, a capacity to cheat, to compete and to lie has proven to be a stupendously successful adaptation. Thus the idea that selection pressure could ever cause saintliness to spread in a society looks implausible in practice. It doesn't seem feasible to outcompete genes which promote competitiveness. "Nice guys" get eaten or outbred. Happy people who are unaware get eaten or outbred. Happiness and niceness today is vanishingly rare, and the misery and suffering of those who are able to truly feel, who are empathic toward other human beings, who have a conscience, is all too common. And the psychopathic manipulations are designed to make psychopaths of us all.

Nevertheless, a predisposition to, conscience, ethics, can prevail if and when it is also able to implement the deepest level of altruism: making the object of its empathy the higher ideal of enhancing free will in the abstract sense, for the sake of others, including our descendants.

In short, our "self-interest" ought to be vested in collectively ensuring that all others are happy and well-disposed too; and in ensuring that children we bring into the world have the option of being constitutionally happy and benevolent toward one another.

This means that if psychopathy threatens the well-being of the group future, then it can be only be dealt with by refusing to allow the self to be dominated by it on an individual, personal basis. Preserving free will for the self in the practical sense, ultimately preserves free will for others. Protection of our own rights AS the rights of others, underwrites the free will position and potential for happiness of all. If mutant psychopaths pose a potential danger then true empathy, true ethics, true conscience, dictates using prophylactic therapy against psychopaths.

And so it is that identifying the psychopath, ceasing our interaction with them, cutting them off from our society, making ourselves unavailable to them as "food" or objects to be conned and used, is the single most effective strategy that we can play.

It seems certain from the evidence that a positive transformation of human nature isn't going to come about through a great spiritual awakening, socio-economic reforms, or a spontaneous desire among the peoples of the world to be nice to each other. But it's quite possible that, in the long run, the psychopathic program of suffering will lose out because misery is not a stable strategy. In a state of increasing misery, victims will seek to escape it; and this seeking will ultimately lead them to inquire into the true state of their misery, and that may lead to a society of intelligent people who will have the collective capacity to do so.

http://www.cassiopaea.org/cass/official_culture.htm

[newspeak]

467. thanks!

Fascinating article--I've been concerned about the mental well-being of our country. Going to save to give it another read.

[Faygo Kid]

366. I could have stayed in Germany in 1973, but came back. Now I wonder.

I went to Europe as a college student that year and made wonderful friends who wanted me to stay. But I came back. Now I wonder. Did I do the right thing? I think we are at a dangerous tipping point in this country. Violence - and soon - is inevitable.

[polly7]

368. Do whatever makes you happy, where you can find work, live without fear ...... and f* em.

Seriously. Good luck and be safe, wherever you end up.

[Stevenmarc]

369. I always love

a good online drama queen exit..... Bravo!!!

[kedrys]

375. As someone who made their escape when they had a chance,

congratulations on a very difficult decision, and the best of luck to you. I'm white and a Canadian citizen (my spouse is American), so our destination was obvious when it came time to bail.

I lived in the States for 28 years, and between the country going to hell on the express train and several reversals of fortune, I came to believe I had no other choice. Two years on, I more than ever am convinced it was the right choice. It's painful to watch even MSNBC because of the stupendous evil and stupidity of the republican party, and the shrill and destructive noise of the far right drones.

FWIW, the press here has had a head-scratching field day on the topic of health care in the U.S. - nobody understands why a large cabal of rich white men in expensive suits would rather blow up the world rather than grant every citizen a basic human right.

May the road rise to meet you, and may the wind be at your back.

[Autonomy]

377. I want to go to Europe, too!

But America will find its way. :)

[icee]

378. Good luck to you, TV. It's been coming for a long time. I don't

agree with everything in your post, but I absolutely do agree with your decision to exit. But it's not just blacks that should be considering it; it's whites also. I'm 64; I don't even recognize this country anymore. Too much to say in a simple post... Many are doing what you're doing; others are going the suicide route. If Petraeus gets to be President (he who ordered the massacres in Iraq), suicide will become a real viable option. I don't have a Pat Benatar poem for you (Sweet Jesus....), just good wishes for you and yours in whatever your endeavors. Whatever you do, don't replicate the mistakes we've made here. Material things are nice, but they don't substitute for personal interaction. Also, avoid stuff that you find personally offensive no matter what others say, including people on political boards. Seek others with studied thought. Avoid the flashy with nothing really to say. Oh, well. Good luck.

[Aleric]

380. Go where you want but keep your citizenship

And vote. You can still do that. Your in a small club of 200 Million that can influence the outcome. There are another 5 Billion that would like to be able to influence the outcome of American elections.

[bridgit]

381. Like Zinc, I guess, thanks for the recommended daily dosage of paranoia

Now I'm all set for the month, oh and thanks for suggesting that white people aren't able to relate that's always a nice touch even if cheesy and wearing a little thin

[fascisthunter]

385. how will the Democrats win when corporations can give as much as they please to campaigns

now the democratic party will have to do the bidding of corporate america in order to stay competitive. We must remove private funding from the political process, but with this new Supreme Court ruling I'm not sure how that is possible.

[icee]

387. It isn't--

[icee]

388. Dupe.

[NJCher]

389. I'm supportive

I'd do it, too, if I could emotionally disengage from my family, but I can't.

Stay in touch here at DU, please. I know I (and quite possibly others) will want to hear about your new place to live.


Cher

[PerpetuallyDazed]

391. Where will you be going?

Wherever it is, I hope you find happiness and contentment there. We all must do for ourselves what we feel is right. :)

[my2sense]

395. I wish I could do the same

Unfortunately racism is everywhere but hopefully won't be as strong a force as it in in ameriKKKa. Good luck to you.

[southernyankeebelle]

396. I hope you thought it out. Moving to Europe isn't all that. I mean I love europe and I have

lived there and have foreign relatives. But it is a different life style.

[Spider Jerusalem]

400. Good luck with that; emigrating to Europe is not as easy as a lot of people seem to think.

To move to pretty much anywhere in the EU you need a university degree or equivalent skills in a certain field, and in most cases need a job offer; obtaining a visa is generally contingent on finding employment and keeping it. You can potentially live in an EU country provided you have independent means (which means hundreds of thousands at minimum and probably more like millions in the bank), and that won't lead to citizenship in most cases.

[DCBob]

401. Where in Europe? How are you dealing with immigration laws and finding a job?

I'd like to go to but those always seem to be thorny issues.

[sadbear]

404. Don't let the "liberal" media fool you

There aren't as many as they would have you believe. Most people in the U.S. couldn't care less. The lunatics are just very loud, and the media provide a megaphone to them. There are definitely more of us than there are of them. What, do you think their numbers just exploded in the past year and a half. We soundly beat them in 2008 and 2006. And any teabagger who said they voted for Obama or any other Democrat is lying. They all voted republican and they got beat.

[kestrel91316]

406. Sorry to hear you are leaving. But don't burn all your bridges -

a lot of us are staying to fight the good fight. I can't give up on my country.

[Angry Dragon]

408. Leaving will not help

it will be the same wherever you go....just a question of time

[Marr]

412. You need a lot more than a passport.

You need to jump through some hoops to get legal resident status, and if you want to become a citizen you usually need to live in the country for five years or so.

[KamaAina]

415. Pity. We could use a few people like you.

Actually, there was quite a bit of talk about Citizens United after it came down. DU is like any other news cycle -- it moves on.

And I am a white, hetero UU (close enough :-) ) and they don't see me as human, either. :grr: But what am I supposed to do? Just hand "the last, best hope of Earth" over to them? :shrug:

[Hamlette]

418. where are you going and what do you expect to find there?

I have traveled all over the world. My sister and parents have lived all over the world. Here's what they found:

1. Racism is terrible in the US but much worse in many other countries including European countries. Scandinavian countries, France, Great Britain, Germany, Italy...the list goes on. Might not be obvious on the surface but it is worse under the surface.

2. Even though countries have better benefits for citizens, unless you can become a citizen, and meet other eligibility criteria, you can't get those benefits for free.

3. Our uptight culture looks down right enlightened compared to many European countries. They won't admit it but Great Britain has a class structure that is pretty oppressive. The Swiss are so uptight they make the Germans look laid back. My sister had her garbage returned to her because she did not recycle correctly. They dumped in outside her apartment door. She was arrested and taken to jail after a road block checking everyone determined her car's breaks were not good enough. They compacted her car (and charged her for it) because they decided it could not be made road worthy. So she stopped paying her car insurance and 6 months later they arrested her and took her to jail for not paying her car insurance (she couldn't cancel it because you have to turn in the proof of insurance card which had been in the glove box when the state compacted the car.) I have a zillion stories like this. Living in a foreign country requires a lot of energy.

After watching (and luckily visiting) my family who collectively lived in foreign countries well over 10 years, I'd never even try. This is my friggin' country and its worth fighting for. If my side has to take up guns to defend ourselves from the knuckle dragging gun toting vermin who pass for the GOP these days, bring it.

[scentopine]

421. I think about it every day, as professional

skilled in engineering R&D there are more opportunities for me in Europe than in America where Wall Street rewards outsourcing even though the quality is shit (that could change, however). Family member has chronic health condition and the health bill doesn't help us at all as we are middle class. In fact, I can see we will be paying a lot more. Companies are testing taking away benefits like health care and vacation. I've gotten interest from R&D firms in Europe that I am now starting to research.

Americans take a perverse pleasure in other peoples pain which is why we are soft on torture, deny health care and worship corporate greed and corruption. Between outsourcing, privatization of schools, scotus, on and on - if a man who ran on a platform of change can't do better than this - the US is truly fucked.

The only thing we seem to be able to manufacture is wholesale death and destruction. And our leadership cheers on the never ending wars. With a huge percentage of the population employed either as enlisted or career soldiers, DoD civilians, prisons, local law, FBI, CIA, HAS, TSA, ATF Customs, Border patrol, on and on - anyone who says we aren't a police state is full of shit. This is a fucking police state and if there was a mass protest we would be slaughtered in a second. So with the investment in weapons and wiretapping and torture and secret prisons any real opposition doesn't have a change in hell as the right wing nuts in both parties are deliberately intimidating liberals. With corporate control of legislation comes more and more corporate control over military. It really and truly has become a type of fascist country.

Think this is fantasy? This country is turning mean and there is something rotten at the core. I agree it is prototypical sociopathic behavior. Maybe too much TV? Not enough family time? Whatever it is, America is really quite an ugly place right now where even torture gets an approving wink and nod. I don't even recognize today's democrat who looks to me like a Reagan neo-con as they yammer and stammer about about how we need to move forward past torture and the Iraq war and justify the continuing slaughter in Afghanistan.

There is no real opposition to the convergence of both mainstream parties.

[alp227]

423. So long, farewell!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2bRjbWV7T-s

Well I guess you're doing what Rush Limbaugh failed to do. Enjoy what you can across the Atlantic!

[SoapBox]

424. Buh Bye! Mr. Limpdong going with you?

[crikkett]

425. Buh-BYE

:hi:

[guardian]

426. Have you decided which country yet? n/t

[DFW]

428. As one who has sort of lived in Europe for 30 years, one bit of advice

Know in advance what you're heading for, and speak the language of wherever it is you're heading, and speak it well.

France and England both have substantial populations of African background, and people of color rarely raise an
eyebrow there unless they have names that indicate an Islamic background. That is not a deal-killer, but will raise
a warning flag in many circles. Obviously England has hardly any language barrier, but all European countries
have their issues due to high unemployment. Ironically, a black guy from America would be far more welcome in
much of Europe than a Gypsy from Romania or Slovakia, but that will not put money in your bank or bread on your
table.

If you head for a country that does not have English as an official language, make sure you are VERY proficient
in the language of where you are headed. Figure you will get as far in Paris speaking only English as you
would in Atlanta speaking only French.

This is not to say don't do it, but know what you're in for, so as to be glad you did it, and not get depresssed
as hell after two months of arriving wherever it is you end up. And remember to vote absentee in every election.
One can always hope for improvement back home, and I vote in Texas, so I know how futile it may seem.

[Joey Liberal]

432. Bora Bora is looking better all of the time

Wish I could afford to me there to get out of this whacked out, rightwing country.

[joeybee12]

433. I'm probably eventually leaving, but for different reasons...when I retire...

...decent healthcare won't be around except for the very rich...HCR has postponed making tough decisions about this.

[Tim Finnegan]

434. Good for you.

I hope you find a democracy to call home. America is plutarchy and has been for awhile. Good luck and I agree and identify with just about everything you wrote.

[colsohlibgal]

437. Good Luck

I have at least explored the possibility and I never thought I'd even consider it - but we, the non filthy rich, are up against it in so many ways here in the US.

[Captain Hilts]

445. Good luck finding some place better that will take you! Not. Gonna. Happen. nt

[elocs]

446. The DUers trashing you and berating you for your decision actually reveal a lot about themselves.

I'm not going to judge anyone or put somebody down because of their decision to leave the country because I don't know their life or their situation. It's pretty pathetic about those here choosing to trash you for your decision.

Good luck on your choice, because it is your choice and not mine or anyone else here.

[Codeine]

460. "Reality is a harsh mistress"

Indeed. Reality is he isn't leaving because it's infinitely more difficult and involved than he believes.

I don't question anybody who wishes to leave, but his drama-queen "Goodbye Cruel World" nonsense combined with an astonishing ignorance of the fact that you have to fulfill certain requirements to move to any European nation does bring out the snark. "I have my passport, I'm a citizen of the world" ain't quite cutting it.

[elocs]

465. Could be, but guess what? It's none of my business and I won't judge him for it.

Plenty here have taken that "burden" upon themselves.

So he has a dream, so it is unlikely, is it up to us to tear it apart and to just generally trash his basic idea?

[truedelphi]

450. TwixVoy, one of the primary reasons that I voted for Obama

Was because I felt that any person who grew up with darker than white skin in this country would have to relate to the misery that the lower middle class endures.

His appointments have not justified my voting for him. Geithner and Bernanke are breaking the backs of those in the lower middle and even the solid middle incomed. (And if Obama doesn't know this, then he is not competent)

But now the ante has been upped - via our Media, we are being corralled into a situation in which we can either vote for the DLC and it bad policies, or the KKK- neo Nazi "Republicans", whose policies are worse as they seem to include scoffing and taunting at people in Wheelchairs, and numerous other predicaments that are as scary as the scariest scenario one can imagine.

You might consider Greece, which has respect for people of any color. Also, since that nation is smart enough to not "bother" with paying back the odious losing investments the First World told it to make in the risky CDS, it's currency has already gone into the basement and anyone arriving there with money in their pocket can probably live quite nicely. Though it might be best to keep your money in a bank in Switzerland, or in Swiss Chocolate bars for that matter. (Chocolate bars are a hedge against today's money situation.)

[proteus_lives]

481. The Greeks are not fond of non-tourist foreigners.

Greece is process of imploding right now.

[d_b]

451. Best of luck to you

I'm gonna stick around and watch the shit-house go up in flames

[Quantess]

452. This thread is a magnet for hostile comments, I see.

I say go for it! It sounds like an adventure, and nobody says you can't come back in 6 months or 5 years, or for however long you stay. It's a good experience.

[TheWatcher]

485. I sometimes wonder how much of the hostility is actually fear and envy.

Maybe because those who are hostile either do not have the courage or the means to do something like this.

Hypocrisy runs deep in this country. Just one of the many terminal mental illnesses that are ravaging the people right now. Apathy, denial, hate, ignorance, pick your poison.

What people decide to do with their own lives is their own decision.

Those who are hostile and hateful toward people like the OP are simply wasting their time, and what is astounding is the fact that they think they are accomplishing anything with that kind of behavior.

Except making themselves look like assholes, which is really unnecessary.

We knew that about them already.

[WildEyedLiberal]

501. There is a lot of unnecessary nastiness, but there's also a lot of legitimate skepticism

It is not "mentally ill" or "hypocritical" to point out that emigrating to another country permanently requires far more than a passport, some money, and the will to leave. The OP mentioned nothing about his destination other than Europe, and I have some familiarity with European immigration requirements. Suffice to say, they will not accept a retired American with no familial connections who just shows up at customs and says he's tired of teabaggers. It's a long, exhausting, and EXPENSIVE process, and even then, most countries simply WILL NOT admit you unless you can fulfill their entry requirements, which are often very steep.

I don't "hate" the OP for wanting to move, but I do think he seems at best naive for thinking it's as easy as saying "I'm tired of the US so I'm going to buy a house in Europe!"

[Codeine]

503. This, precisely.

It's a reaction to the OP's pig-ignorance -- expressed at volume, laden with self-importance and disdain for his fellows.

I also think he's full of shit and hasn't "liquidated" anything more financially significant than a six-pack, but I'm a cynical fuck. :evilgrin:

[pleah]

453. I wish you all the best.

Good luck. :hi: :hug:

[starzdust]

459. I have sympathy and really would...

...like to join you. Guest what? I am a middle aged white male and I agree with you. Differences? I am not a tea bagger, I am an agnostic with atheist leanings. I am an independent because the Democratic party left me long ago. I sill mostly vote for democrats, but if there were a good alternative, NOT RETHUG, I'd vote for him/her. I will NEVER vote for a RETHUG.

I've stopped buying all that crap, though I still have a TV really a basic 20 year old model so I have something to do. You see, I am a teacher and can't afford to to do much else, let alone buy all the crap. I don't shop a Walmart, it's anti-union.

I feel as an Roman, Italian, European, first generation, anglo-American, I am rapidly becoming a minority in my own country due to the Mexican, central America and south America invasion from the south. Don't get me wrong, I am in favor of LEGAL immigration.
What is happening is an ILLEGAL invasion and no one, including those in power, gives a damn. Who knows what type of third world country the US will become, but I will probably die before the worst of the worst happens.

Good luck and lets hear from you when you get settled in Europe.

[mstinamotorcity]

462. I wish you well

I hope you find what it is you are looking for. But there is no way I could leave my fellow Americans with this God awful hot mess with out pitching in and trying to help clean it up. For the first time we have a good strong chance to have a real voice in what goes on. And I intend on screaming to the top of my lungs. I care too much about humanity and the state of this country and the world to let these fucked up troll ass corporate bought and paid for bastards win.Sorry I will be fighting until my last breath. And if I don't stay and fight whatever country you move to will feel the effects of what ever goes on in the U.S.These piece of shit repugs believe that they can create and generate enough propaganda to make people believe anything. All those polls they are rigged.Racist we have dealt with all the time. Corporate greed you are targeted in the planning of whatever product it is they are trying to peddle. Economy you can chalk that up to corporate greed also. And you can chalk that up to an America who wanted bigger,faster,and ignorance in the political and trade arenas.We elected leaders that we thought were in our best interest and it turned out that their best interest was the corporations with big contributions to campaign funds and charities and trips and houses and cars.When Reagan started Union busting it was only so that they could get the perks from the foriegn entities that wanted to tap into the American market share.We were sold out from the very start.
But in all your voice will be missed because we always need someone else who cares to make the sound of thunder rise from the people.

[Dappleganger]

469. Good luck.

It's all about you, after all.

:nopity:

[grantcart]

472. As somebody who has spent more of my adult time outside the US than in it

- and enjoyed it emensely - my prediction is that you will not last 6 months.


The US is a very convenient place and Americans who have lived here have no idea how convenient it is to do a lot of normal daily functions, like ordering a phone line.

The people who do well as expatriates have not left the US because they couldn't stand it but because they were drawn to the place that they were going to.

It takes a huge amount of effort to learn the language and customs and adjust to the new community, and it is expensive too because it takes a while to learn how the locals economize on everyday life.

Oh and those Euros - not a good idea, especially for retirement. The Euro is only as strong as its weakest link. If say Portugal or Greece goes down hard it will pull the Euro down with it.

Don't know if your single or a couple but it is a rare couple where both are engaged in living abroad in the same way, usually one likes it a lot more than the other.

If you haven't had a passion for a particular country and are more driven to go there than you are leaving here then the chances that you are going to have a happy experience is not good. You would be much better off traveling through the US (and its territories) and find a place that has more folks you feel comfortable with. You might just love the funky artist colony of Santa Fe, New Mexico for example.

Good luck but my advice is if your motivation isn't atleast 70% 'pull' and 30% 'push' you should rethink your plans.

[Vidar]

474. Best of luck to you. I tried for many years to return to Europe, but couldn't manage it.

[naaman fletcher]

475. You'd better consult a tax lawyer first.

Sounds like you are in for a massive tax hit that can be avoided with some proper planning.

[SemiCharmedQuark]

478. I think you probably need to do a bit more research on what it takes to immigrate to Europe

My husband emigrated from Europe to the United States. He is English, had a job, was young (22), had a good sponsor and was married to a citizen and it was still very difficult. Immigrating to Europe is as difficult if not more so.

[Book Lover]

482. Good luck

I hope it works for you.

[Skittles]

487. you'll stay in touch with us won't you TwixVoy?

I already have a passport and will kick your ass if you don't

[clyrc]

489. My family left the US almost 7 years ago

after a short stint in politics that left both me and my husband so disillusioned and demoralized that we could hardly talk about it with each other or even here on DU. We had always wanted to see the rest of the world, and an opportunity came up and we took it. I now live in Sharjah United Arab Emirates, and I don't regret it. I love America and miss it deeply, but my life is better here. My husband gets paid better, we have full health care, we get to travel and my husband gets lots of time off. There are things I hate about where I live, with a yelling and throwing things kind of anger. Whenever we think about going back to the States, though, a realistic assessment always makes us stay where we are.

I do feel some guilt about not staying and fighting, but it would have been a long mostly hopeless fight while my kids are growing up. I admire people who stay and fight, but I simply don't have the kind of toughness to do it. I still vote and donate to candidates I like. I want things to improve in America for my family, friends, and everyone else. I go home every year, for several weeks, and it is always good to be home. I learned how American I actually am, by moving here, and I learned what to really be grateful for as an American. But it seems that America has changed from what it was when I was younger. My dad was a pilot in the Air Force, and my mom is a Southern Baptist and moderate Democrat, but I was taught to be compassionate and considerate whenever possible, and to behave with dignity. I don't see much evidence that Americans are being taught to be considerate, compassionate, civil or dignified now. Those things are still important to me, though, and even though I wouldn't claim that where I live people are hugely concerned with those values, I will say it is easier to teach my kids that they are important here. American tv always appalls me when I go back, when I've got jet lag and I can't sleep or do much else and channel surfing is about the only activity I can do.

Anyway best of luck to you, and I hope it works out well for you.

[slackmaster]

494. Good luck to you. I hope you didn't fill out your census form before you left.

:hi:

[dionysus]

495. bye. don't write

:hi:

[TheKentuckian]

499. I've always been a fierce believer in standing and fighting BUT

Lately, my stock of who is on my side and their insanely desperate conflict avoidance and/or devotion and/or addiction to the status quo is quite disheartening. The battle is already lost if no one will stand firm in their convictions too afraid to lose whatever little they perceive they have.

I still essentially think their is nowhere far enough to run to or secret enough to hide out from the problems we have here. Left unchecked they will spread EVERYWHERE and choke out peace and freedom.

Peace through strength is no lie just an unfortunate reality.

[Jamastiene]

500. More power to ya. Take care.

I wish I could afford to leave at some point. In the meantime, best of luck to ya. :hi:

[mayya]

506. consider Sub-Saharan AFRICA as an alternative

You have to do your research first, but you can live like a king for very little money, and you can do a lot to help the locals.

I can foresee a movement where enough like-minded people move to the same area there and build something of a utopia. Africa is still messed up from colonialism, but there is a lot of opportunity for well-intentioned westerners to change things for the better.

Also, there are no Right-Wingers (unlike Europe).

[Joe the Liberal]

507. Please.....Please take me with you......

I don't blame you for leaving, I think about it every day.

[ecstatic]

508. Would you consider the Bahamas?

A tour guide showed us some residential neighborhoods, told us some of the basics of moving there and it sounded relatively easy. Plus there are no property taxes!

I think traveling around the world is a wonderful idea, but from your post, it sounds as though you are right around the corner from receiving Medicare. And you already have a nest egg going. So here is what I would do: Move to a very cheap state in the U.S. where the cost of living is really low. It can also be a red state, but make sure you move to a safely blue city within that state. I am in red GA, but I don't cross paths with teabaggers for the most part.

Then you can look into purchasing some very affordable property in the Carribean or Central or South America. Then you can also maybe purchase a time share which will allow you to exchange your weeks for weeks in other places around the world. That way you get the best of all worlds. It's doubtful that they will let you into a European nation unless you can find a job, and you've already mentioned that you are retired... so that might not work... unless your savings are 1million+.

I definitely understand how you feel, but it doesn't sound like you have a lot of room for error because you've waited so long, that's why I think you should keep some property in the U.S. and use your saved up money for traveling. My take from talking to people who have lived in Europe is that it's a great place to visit, but they have institutional racism there as well--it's just not talked about and is accepted as just the way things are.

[mayya]

511. not if we have a revolution

If things get really bad, you need to be out of the red states. Also a lot of people could flee from red Florida to the Bahamas.

With preparation, sub-Saharan Africa is perfect. Live like a king for cheap (servants are well-paid at $10 per month.) No right-wingers. Taxes are low and rare. People are open-minded. If there is a right-wing revolution in the US, no one there will even care, except the US will stop sending aid. Meanwhile, you can get in on some of the US aid.

[Ysabel]

509. no matter where you go...

those one percent of rich people who own just about everything the odds are they own where-ever it is you're going...

[WeekendWarrior]

510. Complete Tea Bagger Control?

Your hysteria is unwarranted. These people will never control anything. Get a grip.