We all have blood in our hands

[nadinbrzezinski]

you see folks, it is time to realize that those soldiers who we want to fight them wars, well it is CIVILIANS who give those orders. And it is CIVILIANS that you and I elect... yes I know Bush started the war, but many DEMS that WE elected voted for it.

I know all the reasons

but in the final analysis, we are also responsible. I know it is comfy here at home, with a roof, watching a strange program on PBS... it is comfortable, even attractive, to try to make a difference between me and that roughneck shipping out soon, or shipped out, or will ship out someday.

I pay taxes. Those taxes pay for this soldier's kit, and for his or her training.

I elect the political leaders that decide for me to go to war.

So you see, I may not directly pull the trigger, but I am responsible.

This is the burden of citizenship. And it don't matter if the war is right or wrong, in the final analysis, I am paying for it. Oh in ways that I am also aware. But that is another matter.

We as a society like to play this stupid game of blaming the troops when they do something horrific. Well war is horrific, and some soldiers do commit war crimes, that is a reality. But I enable that. So what are we going to do about this? I expect the usual, I have gotten used to it. Blame the troops, it is the safe thing to do. Maybe take the next step and blame politicians, especially if they are from the other party, but will we collectively ever blame ourselves? No.

This is why things like the Hurt Locker don't do well. Those movies try to show you the horror of war, and we'd rather see the myth of war. Where it is black and white and easy.

Now perhaps I am getting way too philosophical tonight, but I've known for a long time that I have blood in my hands, and truth be told, so do you. And tonight when a US soldier pulls that trigger in a firefight, symbolically, though my taxes and the actions of my leaders, I am pulling that trigger as well.

That is a reality that the poets of WW I understood.... but then again, for them every able bodied man went to war... and in the Summer 1914 they all believed they'd be home by Christmas and they believed in honor and glory... by 1916 they knew better, unlike us, who go on life buying, griping and really blaming the soldiers when sometihng comes and shatters our reality.

Well... Dulce et Decorum Est, the sweet lie... and I'd expand on it, to the charge of the Light Brigade... inside a hologram.

Oh and to the peace nicks that believe there is no good war... well guess what, you are as much as a trigger puller as I am. Welcome to the club.

[leftstreet]

1. You make a good case for not voting and not paying taxes

...I guess

[nadinbrzezinski]

4. That is what people have done at times

Usually small and usually ineffective.

But the reality is that it is as effective as what we are doing these days.

But a citizen is RESPONSIBLE for the actions of his or her government.

That means you vote.

[BeFree]

2. What a crock

I am a peace nik and I have no blood on my hands.

This "we'd rather see the myth of war" is your desire, not mine, and spells the difference between us peace niks and you. Keep your fantasies to yourself, please.

[nadinbrzezinski]

6. Yep part of the fantasy is that you have no responsiblty

Thanks for proving my point.

[BeFree]

8. Oh

So every bad thing that happens I share a responsibility for?

I think your love for war and your self hatred because you love war makes you project your craziness onto others so you don't feel all alone.

[nadinbrzezinski]

10. Are you a citizen? Yes or no?

And you think that as a citizen you have no responsibility?

I am in good company then, here is a Thomas Jefferson Quote, you know that ignorant fool.

"Every government degenerates when trusted to the rulers of the people alone. The people themselves, therefore, are its only safe depositories. And to render even them safe, their minds must be improved to a certain degree." --Thomas Jefferson: Notes on Virginia Q.XIV, 1782. ME 2:207

By the way, nice straw man to say I love war, when if there is one thing I hate IS war.

I just recognize my role in this. Apparently you don't

[Mimosa]

3. I thought our current POTUS meant to get us out of these wars...

...not deeper in.

Nadinbrzezinski, I think you're being too tough on 'us.' We vote for people and we hope for the best. Some of them we believe have life affirming ideals and values. Then they get in 'power' and become part of the machine. We who aren't in power can do very little other than protest. And try to build critical mass for real change. But the opposition is powerful and controls the economy.

I have a pet theory that in order for a 'volunteer military' to have become feasible, we had to have an economy with scarce education and limited job opportunities for young able bodied people.

[nadinbrzezinski]

7. That economy has existed before

neither here or there, but we have to hold them accountable, that is what we need to do.

But we need to realize OUR responsibility in this, no not you personally, the WE as a citizen body. Realize our voting ratios even in PRESIDENTIAL elections are ridiculously low.

[Mind_your_head]

5. I've said STOP.....I went out and protested BEFORE the Iraq invasion.....

just like MILLIONS of others AROUND THE WORLD did! And the 'leaders' didn't give a d*mn! MILLIONS around the world protested.

The FAILURE is that the 'common man' has absolutely no control or 'sway' with what their 'leaders' decide to do....order.

I don't feel guilty. I feel ineffectual. I KNOW that the common man currently has no sway over what the 'powers that be' devise/want/do.

[Raksha]

83. My sentiments exactly: "I don't feel guilty. I feel ineffectual.

I just said something very similar downthread. I feel more than ineffectual; I feel powerless. I suppose that's exactly how the warmongers and profiteers want me to feel, but that doesn't change the fact that it's true.

If anyone can think of an effective way we the citizens can regain control of our own government and its killing machine run amok, I'd love to hear about it. Because I sure as hell can't think of anything.

[Greyhound]

9. Sorry, you're flat wrong in this. Your points carry no weight because those you try to blame

have no choice. Pretending that a choice exists merely plays into the hands that have convinced you that their actions are your fault.

[nadinbrzezinski]

12. So citizens have no responsibilty?

You sure of that?

"Every government degenerates when trusted to the rulers of the people alone. The people themselves, therefore, are its only safe depositories. And to render even them safe, their minds must be improved to a certain degree." --Thomas Jefferson: Notes on Virginia Q.XIV, 1782. ME 2:207

Now we know truly why we are where we are.

[Greyhound]

24. Citizens with no voice and no choice, no.

I have withdrawn to the greatest extent possible without living in an actual prison.

I reap no benefit from the crimes committed by this society, but I do suffer the deprivations imposed on me by that society for refusing to conform. In every respect, I would be better off if I could escape.

The fact that, if even 1 in 6 Americans lived as I do the system would collapse, absolves me from responsibility for it's actions. I will always fight them and will work to ameliorate the damage they do, but accept responsibility for their actions, absolutely and forever, no. Is the slave responsible for the crimes of his master?

As for TJ, this government was beyond the consent and control of it's citizens long before I was born.

[nadinbrzezinski]

29. No it does not, you may beleive it does

but it does not.

The founders woudl literally do flips on their graves, if they could.

Then again, perhaps the Tory faction was right, and the franchise should have never been extended... then you'd have a case that you are free of it.

[Greyhound]

32. So you contend that a slave is responsible for crimes committed by his master.

We're never going to meet on this one.

Still like and respect you, though.
:hippie:

[nadinbrzezinski]

33. You aren't a slave

but if you want to think that way, then you are already a voluntary slave.

[Greyhound]

52. Harriet Tubman disagrees.

You have to recognize that you are a slave before you can conceive of freedom. If the only choices are to abandon your principles or suffer punishment, you have not volunteered for anything.

You're right that I'm not a slave, but my freedom excludes me.

And in neither case does that make me responsible for the crimes of others.

[nadinbrzezinski]

56. so I guess we have slave pens in the US

No we don't. And Harriet Tubman WROTE of those slave pens.

Now you could take her to recognize that you believe this, therefore you are. I guess there is nothing I can say to you...

You are right, we will never see eye to eye, and it does not shock me.

Though one of her lessons, which you are missing, is that once you recognize that, you also recognize the power inside of you. Now WE as a people, if we were aware of our real power, we could do things to change our present condition. They include silly things like national strikes... but I don't expect that to happen anytime soon.

By the way, things will get far worst as the Empire goes to hell, but that is neither here or there. The ME people will get what it deserves. The experiment is dead.

(Oh and one final note, we do have white slavery in the US, it is a crime and not just in the US... it is a modern problem... I had the opportunity to help rescue some real slaves)

[Greyhound]

65. And there are no tanks on the streets so it's not fascism either.

C'mon you know better than that and you're purposely missing the Harriet Tubman point ("I freed a thousand slaves, etc.).

You have personally seen that the "power of the people" doesn't exist any longer. You've lived under a regime installed through judicial coup, seen elections blatantly stolen, etc., etc., and you've seen every attempt to stop the commission of these crimes thwarted by a concerted effort of the minority. You have also witnessed the collective voices of The People not just ignored, but mocked by those that do have the power.

But now I also recall that you were one of those that was suckered/blackmailed into supporting the Great Bankster Hold Up.

You're still wrong about that as well.
:P

[Name removed]

70. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[nadinbrzezinski]

107. As I said, we have surrendered

so when there is no change, don't complaint, we have no power.

It is the ME society, and it's effective.

He who dies wiht the most toys and all that, well in that pursuit people have forgotten what is inside and what they responsible to do as citizens, It goes well beyond voting and jury duty, or taxes for that matter.

[Bluerthanblue]

115. Harriet Tubman put her life on the line for what she believed in

are you doing that?

MLK put his life on the line as well-

I'm a "peace-nick" myself, and I can't avoid the fact that it's going to take more than vigils and protests and living frugally on the margins of society to actually bring about change.

Are you willing to truly be imprisoned for the sake of peace?

I'm not sure that equating yourself with Harriet Tubman is a great idea unless you are willing to sacrifice everything for the cause.

Until the day that I am willing to do that, I own my share of responsibility for what is being done.

I understand and share your frustration but that doesn't change the reality.

[Name removed]

49. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Orsino]

99. We do have many choices as to how far we involve ourselves with the military-industrial complex.

But yes, it's probably impossible to extricate ourselves completely, so I cut every one of us a little slack.

[Marr]

11. Maybe you do. I don't.

Were you for the invasion? If so, you share some blame. Don't try to rub your shame on people who weren't on that pathetic little boat though, please.

[nadinbrzezinski]

14. No I wasn't, but I have the same responsibity of

EVERY CITIZEN. Capice?

I understand why this is hard to grasp, but this was not that alien to citizens in the past.

[Marr]

16. It's hard to grasp because it's asinine.

As far as I can tell, your point is to lay on an undeserved guilt trip to get people to support the party.

I don't share a god damned ounce of blame for the situation in Iraq, because I was against it from the start. I am not a member of the ownership class, however, so I have roughly zero influence. That sucks in almost every conceivable way, but there is one extremely tiny perk-- namely, I'm not to blame for their schemes.

[Name removed]

18. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Marr]

19. I'm impressed with your high school reading list. n/t

[nadinbrzezinski]

23. Sartre is High School really?

You and are responsible, at the level of a CITIZEN.

Unless you can show me the secret, duper secret section of the IRS 1040 that allows YOU NOT to fund the Department of Defense.

[Hannah Bell]

54. i read "no exit" at summer camp when i was 16. being as it was the 60s & all,

the teenage staff was reading a wide assortment of high-faluting literature & talking politics.

[Hannah Bell]

51. like jefferson, she imagines herself one of the elite who are qualified to educate

the benighted masses.

as in her non-seq quote:

"Every government degenerates when trusted to the rulers of the people alone. The people themselves, therefore, are its only safe depositories. And to render even them safe, their minds must be improved to a certain degree." --Thomas Jefferson: Notes on Virginia Q.XIV, 1782. ME 2:207


"their minds must be improved" (and *we'll* decide what improvement means, & *we'll* do the improving).

[TexasObserver]

90. Anyone can parrot quotes. Understanding takes study, however.

The parroting of quotes is downright silly.

If we want to know what Jefferson thought, we read Jefferson. People who know little about Jefferson tend to cling to a handful of quotes, as the OP does. It reminds me of poor students, who think using a citation to a quote proves the point they wish to make. It usually proves how thin their level of understanding is, as in this instance.

[Name removed]

62. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Raksha]

85. I don't know where you've been, but the rights of citizenship no longer exist,

and therefore collective responsibility doesn't exist either. As someone said upthread, "Is the slave responsible for the actions of the master?"

[nadinbrzezinski]

127. THey don't? That will be a world of a surprise

to those who understand the word inalienable... and in the context it was written.

You chose, I know.

[Bonobo]

13. Not me so much...but you are right in general.

I am doing every conceivable thing possible to get out of the US (I have left) and stop paying your blood taxes. As soon as I can trade in my US citizenship, I will. For precisely the same reasons you point out.

[JeffR]

15. Huh uh, no. Not at all.

The "peace nicks," as you term it, are not at all responsible for this.

Nor do rational people blame the soldiers at all. They were deployed into immoral, not to mention unwinnable scenarios. Blaming those who serve in the nation's military is misguided, period. It'll happen here on DU as a matter of course, of course, because stupid, ill-founded opinions are a dime a dozen on the intertubes.

At the same time, millions of us didn't and don't want them there and marched in the streets to say so, and continue to do so. Not one of them pulled any goddamned triggers. Nor, I assume, did you. You're upset, rightly, with the demonization of soliders, and fair enough. But this sort of hyperbole achieves nothing, save to underscore how ridiculously overheated the rhetoric in cyberspace has become. Just because your words can be read by a wide audience does not mean any wisdom can be had therefrom. You've just proved that in an airtight fashion.

[nadinbrzezinski]

17. Yes we are, all of us

by the way I have been fighting this from the begining but I realize MY ROLE in this.

Your and my taxes are going to producing that kit, are they not? Or have you found the secret clause in the IRS 1040 that allows you to say NO, I DON'T WANT MINE TO FUND DOD? If you have, please let me know where.

[JeffR]

20. You're not responsible. Period. Posture all you want, you are not responsible.

As for me, you might remember I live abroad. Through careful attention to tax law, I owe nothing whatsoever to the IRS. But even if I did, taxes owing would only be considered an endorsement of the occupations in some overheated ether dream of message board jawing.

I do know you've been fighting this from the beginning, and I can't tell you how much I admire you for that. Likewise a lot of us have been fighting this for a long time. Please explain how some late-stage finger-wagging that we all stink of innocent blood helps keep us fighting when we have as good a shot as we ever have of helping to end this madness.

[nadinbrzezinski]

28. Then you are not a citizen?

This does not apply to you then.

Well it does, to the actions of the GOVERNMENT YOU ELECT and PAY TAXES to.

[JeffR]

35. I am indeed a citizen.

Are you really naive enough to think that those of us who live out of the country are no longer Americans? Really? You might want to do some homework on that. The only country in which I can vote and of which I am a citizen is the United States. That doesn't mean I voted for current policy in Afghanistan or Iraq, under this White House or the previous one. Nor would I have done even if I owed the IRS a dime this year.

It's a little remarkable that someone as thoughtful as you are would be advocating such a cheesy argument.

[nadinbrzezinski]

40. That cheesy argument was also advocated by Hannah Arendt

and you are a citizen but pay no taxes, how you do that, given that I know US citizens who live abroad good question. But that is besides the point.

[Hannah Bell]

60. most people making under $30K pay little or no income tax.

kind of blows your whole argument, doesn't it?

i guess it's the upper middle class who's really responsible, then. glad that's settled.

[JeffR]

68. Arendt thought this through deeply, and I suspect with considerable pain.

I'm not at all sure you've thought it through to anywhere near the same extent, much as you may want to shroud yourself under her mantle.

And if you're really silly enough to believe that expats automatically owe taxes to the IRS, then, once again, I'd urge you to do a little research. That's just plain ludicrous.

[akbacchus_BC]

74. Nadin, most Americans living overseas have to file income taxes

in the US. Even though JeffR and Nance being Americans living in Canada, they have to file income taxes in the US. Have no idea why you arguing with JeffR!

[Mind_your_head]

21. I'm so poor that I don't pay taxes....there is nothing to tax.

Happy now?

[CrispyQ]

93. "NO, I DON'T WANT MINE TO FUND DOD?"

It's interesting that a relatively small group of people have been successful in doing just that -- they do not want their taxes to fund abortions, so Congress complies. However, when millions & millions of people march all over the country & call their Senators & Representatives in opposition to an illegal war, the media doesn't report & Congress doesn't listen. If there was as much opportunity to pilfer the Treasury by funding abortions as there is with war, you can bet this small group of people would not have gotten any attention nor would they have gotten their way.

Other than the fact that I was born in a country that has been using it's tax base & military force for the benefit of the multinational corporations, I'm don't see how I'm as much to blame as the elite who are making billions from these wars. I go to the polls & I vote. Unfortunately the candidates I have to choose from are all basically two sides of the same coin. And if there were someone viable, who would fight against the status quo, the electronic voting machines will take care of that.

Anyone who thinks we have a voice in what our government does is fooling themselves. It's been headed this way for a long time, but the coups of 2000 & 2004 have cemented our bondage to a system that is simply a facade to keep the commoners in their place.

[DrCory]

108. Perhaps you should present yourself to the Hague for prosecution. N/T

[Hannah Bell]

58. no one's demonizing soldiers. but soldiers do have a degree of choice: 1)

to become soldiers, 2) to remain soldiers, 3) in the orders they follow, the decisions they make, the actions they take while in uniform.

*they* made the decisions & *they* pulled the triggers.

and their superiors covered it up.

and they are responsible for those acts, not me.

and tonight's 3 op's on how "we" are responsible are nonsense.

[JeffR]

75. Glad you mentioned that. You're right.

And I shouldn't have used the word "demonized" in my initial response. I haven't seen soldiers "demonized" here about this, though I do believe the OP feels she has seen that. People can read the same relatively simple words and derive completely different meanings. So I believe she has.

[VMI Dem]

22. Yeah, The Hurt Locker did horrible.

What melodramatic bullshit.

[nadinbrzezinski]

26. So you also have found the IRS secret section

that allows you NOT to fund the DOD with YOUR TAXES? Please share.

[JeffR]

25. Mind_your_head's responses on this thread say it better than I've done.

Read those responses several times and soak up the wisdom in them. And please reconsider.

[nadinbrzezinski]

27. What that as a CITIZEN we are all responsible?

Is that what I should reconsider?

You are serious?

No the responses tell me that we are even more distant from the function of the citizen than I believed possible.

And you know what is the problem? That is why the shinies work so damn well... after all if I am not responsible, why should I act?

[JeffR]

30. I'm sorry, but I think you're getting further and further off-base on this.

I believe you started this discussion out of a sense of protectiveness toward unthinking, broad-brushed criticism of the women and men serving in the military. And I don't quarrel with that impulse.

Somehow, though, you've decided to adopt as a rhetorical point the idea that people paying their taxes somehow amounts to an endorsement, a vote as it were, of any rotten, immoral thing done by the government. That's a huge stretch, huge.

Again, if you've opposed the invasions and occupations, you are not responsible. That you've payed your taxes means you recognize your role as a participant in a comity. It doesn't make you a Nuremberg defendant.

[nadinbrzezinski]

31. And you'd be wrong

this is about the responsibity of the citizen, and as a citizen you and I are responsible for the actions of our CIVILIAN controlled military. A government that YOU AND I, well not you, elect.

This is a deep philosophical concept that is pretty alien to modern Americans, but we don't teach civics anymore

This is at the heart of civic life, what at one time was called, the PUBLIC sphere.

And you are right, it does not make you a Nuremberg Defendant, just part of the clean up crew at... Bergen Belsen. Why do you think Eisenhower gave that order?

[JeffR]

39. Oh, for Christ's sake...

I vote. Straight ticket Dem. Last election cycle, next election cycle, world without end, amen, reserving the right to write in a better Dem than my sitting congressman. I'm an American, as stated more than once here. Maybe you want to take a break from moralizing and actually read what's being posted in rebuttal. I'd hate to ruin a perfectly good flimsy internet tirade, of course, but maybe you might indulge an impulse to be fair and read what those who disagree with your stance have to say?

[nadinbrzezinski]

42. So you are a citizen, and you vote

Recommend you read the Banality of Evil, and some Sartre, and also a few on Jefferson, as well as John Locke on Government.

Pay attention to the PUBLIC SPHERE and the responsibility of the Citizen.

Sadly I now realize these concepts are truly and fully FOREIGN in a country where they used to be common currency.

So you think that is garbage, whatever...

[JeffR]

45. Swing and a miss, I'm afraid.

I don't think your argument is garbage. I do think it's misguided, though, both when it comes to me and it comes to you and anyone else who reads all this palaver. And I'm not going to give you a primer on tax law, either American or overseas tax law. I'm quite sure you can do the research yourself.

[nadinbrzezinski]

47. Of course I can

side agreements with other nations to avoid double taxations and all that crap that changes with the wind... regardless you are part of the WE if you so choose.

I suspect, like most, you are part of the ME.

Why we are in the hole we are.

By the way that is part of the big mystery as to why national leaders do what they do.

[JeffR]

64. That's a remarkably tawdry accusation, as I believe you'll appreciate.

You can suspect what you damn please, but your uber-righteousness on this is thoroughly unconvincing. Not that I owe you much more than what I've already attempted to get across to you, but you're castigating a brother and a fellow American and we're all on the same side. At least we used to be before internet sophistry became a substitute for reasoned discourse. Your position on this is deeply disappointing.

We're in the hole we are because we can no longer keep track of who our allies are. You can't, at least, it seems. You've made that quite clear.

[cali]

53. wait a minute. what specifically`in those works

bolsters your argument? quotes please.

I won't hold my breath.

soooooo dishonest.

[Name removed]

63. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Rex]

34. Actually

The people that have blood on their hands commit atrocities and covered them up.

[nadinbrzezinski]

38. Who is the CIC? Who elected the CiC

Who are the members of Congress?

Who elected them?

And who pays those taxes?

I know this is a complex concept, one that sadly is now alien in the US, but one that is there.

No, we are not directly responsible, but we are responsible... and it is high time people stop pretending and using the I am not, excuse for anything, and realize this is a WE effort.

It is not about ME, but WE.

And yes I realize this is alien to most Americans... I also realize that most will be highly defensive, but Hannah Arendt would possibly explain it to you, if you care to read some into this.

[JeffR]

41. And at this point, I really am sorry,

but invoking Hannah Arendt to bolster your preposterous argument is really offensive.

[nadinbrzezinski]

43. Is it? What is that argument> That there is responsiblty for a people?

SHE MADE IT you know.

[JeffR]

57. Say what you will. You've still waded into hyperbole without a rope walk to guide you back.

You've stretched Arendt to fit your rhetorical bed of Procrustes, and she doesn't fit on it, so it seems you have no choice than to stretch her to its dimensions. But it's just not convincing. The Bush mis-administration didn't consult me or you about the illegal invasion and occupation of Iraq. President Obama, who garnered my vote and a campaign contribution I could ill afford at the time, didn't consult me or you about what he would do in Afghanistan or Pakistan.

Getting back to what I believe is the original point of your OP, blaming things on the military is beside the point. The point is that our military is occupying two countries in the Middle East that we have no business occupying. That's where all this begins and ends. We fight it or we don't. I fight it, and assume you do too. Right? Isn't that where the real responsibility resides? You and I can both sleep quite soundly. Arendt won't be haunting any dreams of mine tonight. If she does yours, read her again.

[nadinbrzezinski]

59. The point is that our military is occupying two countries in the Middle East that we have no busines

Yes, and who gave them those orders?

They are not there because the Generals decided to do that. They were GIVEN ORDERS by CIVILIANS who are in control of the armed forces of the United States. Those civilians WERE elected by you and me.

Or do tell me, what branch of the US Government are the generals in control off?

[JeffR]

66. You're hitting the asteroid belt at this point.

You do realize that our system of government doesn't operate by referendum, yes?

I know damn well who's in control of the armed forces. Anyone who got through 8th grade Civics with a passing grade should know. So what?

[nadinbrzezinski]

130. Well if you cannot undesrtand that

well I guess I am all the way to the Kuiper belt, happy now?

[Hannah Bell]

67. more than didn't consult - blatantly, repeatedly LIED, on every media outlet,

& denigrated dissenters as unpatriotic & possibly traitorous.

Plus the media downplayed the biggest mass mobilization of the last 30 years & the police used a variety of means (e.g. "free speech zones") to corral it. There were some prosecutions as well.

The public was overwhelmingly against the invasion of Iraq. It didn't matter diddly because the Bush contingent had the policy in place years before the fact.

This line of revision makes me *sick*.

[JeffR]

72. A very pertinent point.

I refuse to accept that all of us, millions, including the OP - despite her vigorous protestations - have our hands bloodied. This sort of shit has been going on since long before I got my draft card, and it'll probably be going on when some soul unknown to me is filling out my death certificate. This just seems an easy way to give a pass to war criminals. Oh, well, I guess it's really my fault too... just like Watergate and Iran-Contra were.

[Rex]

55. Sounds more like it is about you.

I understand this try at pity for war-lovers, but military professionals are a far cry from guys laughing about someone bringing their kid along after slaughtering their kids. Sorry, doesn't happen and if you think NORMAL people believe that is okay then you have it all wrong. War crimes should be blamed on the people that commit them, did you not know that? Haven't you seen people calling for Bush/Cheney being tried for war crimes FOR YEARS here at DU? This is NOT a complex concept and can be represented easily.

Commit war crime = go to jail = blood on hands.

[nadinbrzezinski]

61. Yes and in an ideal world

war crimes would see the officers who wrote asinine Rules of Engagement too.

That is direct responsibly, and if a crime is committed, I want a General Court Martial, with all rights and responsibilities of a CRIMINAL COURT PROCEEDING. You think there is disagreement there?

That is not what we are talking here about. Here we are talking of a concept that I realize allows the empire to continue. The ME people divest of a very distant, but real responsibility as a CITIZEN by pointing at those soldiers and going IT IS NOT ME.

Well this was at one point called the PUBLIC SPHERE... that's ok. I understand why you don't get it.

[Rex]

71. Well you are allowed to get on your soap box anytime you want here on DU

so I would say DU is your public sphere. You understand why I don't get it, wow that is mind blowing. Back on that soapbox.

[nadinbrzezinski]

100. Yes I get it, this country has NOT taught CIVIC responsibity

or for that matter civics for at least TWO generations.

By the way, you say you cannot punish a people for the actions of their governments, what the hell do you think reparations in International Law are?

[Raksha]

143. Right...war crimes should be blamed on the people who commit them,

the people who gave the orders and the people who cover up the atrocities afterwards in the name of "perception management." And lets not forget the people who LIED us into this unholy war to begin with!

[cali]

36. unrec. what garbage.

[Name removed]

37. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[cali]

44. by your twisted and puerile "logic"

collective guilt is just fine and dandy.

your criteria for why we're all purportedly guilty is thin gruel indeed.

[tkmorris]

46. Your accusation that I am responsible implies...

That there is some thing I could have done which I did not do, some thing I should not have done which I did do. What is that thing? In what way have I failed? You cannot blame those who lack the power to change a thing for the thing, and yet if we, or I, have that power it implies that we have in some way failed to wield it. Please explain how we have done so.

[nadinbrzezinski]

48. Here is the problem WE have the power

we just have refused to use it.

But WE have it.

[cali]

50. lol. mouthing platitudes as a response to a query asking for specifics

the op is typical hysterical crap from you and your responses in this thread are just pathetic.

[Hannah Bell]

69. you're so fond of telling people what to read, here, why don't you review the history of the

opposition to our entry into iraq.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opposition_to_the_Iraq_War

because your revisionist version is sickening.

[JeffR]

73. Thank you.

The biggest political protests in human history, spanning continents, were in opposition to the invasion of Iraq. Yet a few scant and bloody years later, it's all just fodder for internet sophistry and the moral significance is lost in a rat's nest of pointed fingers.

[MUAD_DIB]

76. Do you plan on arresting yourself then?

[cali]

78. Renting of garments, gnashing of teeth, pulling of hair

wailing and clawing of skin would suffice.

[nadinbrzezinski]

105. Nah, more like it is nice to see

how far we have gone down the rabbit hole.

You wonder why the people are so ineffective... well this thread has all the excuses as to why we can't change a thing, and why I, not we, I am not responsible.

This is the ME society, and this is why the Empire goes on, and on, and on and on.

[MUAD_DIB]

132. So what do you plan to personally do about it.

[MUAD_DIB]

146. Show me when it has been different in US history.

Don't use Viet Nam as an example sine the death toll was considerably higher, and the cheer leading for the war waned once the death toll went up.

[Mari333]

77. not in my name. not either occupation

I dont care who is in the white house. not in my name.

[lunatica]

79. I'm a peace nick, and in this I disagree with you

Every single person is accountable for what they do. Even the troops. I refuse to be accountable for the actions of others. I am only accountable for ever single thing I do, I say, and what I don't say and don't do. No one else can take the blame or the glory of my actions.

I get your frustration, but raging at DUers isn't the solution. If you think it's unfair to blame the troops for what they do then why do you think it's fair to blame us?

[Odin2005]

80. Unfortunately, Nadin, most of us HAVE NO real voice, have no real say.

The Iraq debacle was of, for, and by the War Profiteers, who used the MSM to manipulate the public. What can you expect when the MSM spews propaganda into people's brains 24/7? Look at how many people still think Saddam had something to do with 9/11.

[nadinbrzezinski]

106. That is the problem, WE DO

and we have a CIVIC responsibility to act.

Will we act? Hell no.

So in a way they won... don't be surprised when nothing changes then.

[Raksha]

81. Speak for yourself, because I am NOT responsible!

I never bought any of the propaganda--never believed Saddam had WMDs or that he had any connection with 9/11 whatsoever. And then there were the Downing Street Memos. I was 100% opposed to the Iraq war during the run-up to it and even more opposed to it after it started, and for eight long years I've been solidly in the anti-war camp--signed every anti-war petition that came my way, voted for every candidate I thought shared my views, etc.

What were the results of the latest poll? Is it 80% of the citizens of this country in favor of withdrawing ALL our troops from Iraq and Afghanistan? Something like that anyway. To me the most horrifying thing about this video is that it brings home--AGAIN!--the shameful realization that the American people have lost control of our own government. The military-industrial complex has the ONLY vote that counts, and no matter how much we want to stop this war, no matter how MANY of us want to stop it--WE CAN'T!

The MIC can murder innocent people in our names, and it go right on murdering them for years...and there isn't ONE damn thing we can do about it! As I said in another post, they have ALL the power and we have NONE. It's a horrifying thing to realize, but there it is. So don't go adding insult to injury by saying we all have blood on our hands.

[nadinbrzezinski]

104. I never did either

and your point?

We have that power, but alas you prove my point. We have been atomized as a society to the point that YOU BELIEVE you can't change a thing.

Well change ain't easy or at times the prudent thing to do, but we have chosen to not even go there.

Oh and under international law, I suggest you read on the principle of reparations, given we engaged in preemptive war.

[Raksha]

145. Ya think? We really do have the power to change something/anything?

Than please clue us in as to the source of that power and how we use it, because there are many others besides me who would LOVE to know! It seems to me we've tried everything, so if you have some new and EFFECTIVE strategy for empowering the grassroots, let's hear about it.

But enough of pointing the finger of blame at people who have no control over what their government does, even if you do invoke Hannah Arendt as the voice of authority. I'm not so sure she was right, BTW. After a certain point, the German people had no control over what their government did either.

[HughBeaumont]

82. You actually think we the people or the President we elected is in CHARGE of anything?

:rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

It is to laugh.

Corporations are conducting this war, this culture, our businesses and our LIVES. They conduct governmental policy. It's all done to please ONE class of people first and sometimes, ONLY.

We have the power to do WHAT, exactly?

Elect a progressive? PFFFFFFFFT. I think we'd have a better chance of getting an Austrian-born president before we'll get a truly progressive one. A corptocracy would never allow a non-bought progressive who'll thumb his/her nose at their threats and bullshit. With the marginalization, mudslinging and Rovian mud-bath that would follow, they would never make it past the primaries.

Protest? Their media would never broadcast it. Take it from me: I was there on March 20th. Besides maybe CSPAN, the media, by and large, was not. They were too busy broadcasting their useful idiots with Gadsens in the Tea Klux Klan on the Capital Lawn. That's who the corporations and their media CARE about - people who really, really, REALLY hate Democrats and this administration. News flash: Corporations love Republicans. Republican politicians aid and abet their thievery. Democrats merely inconvenience them with a tiny tax increase.

You think they gave a peep at the millions of us who were regularly in the streets during Bewsh's reign of error? PFFFFFFFT.

What were we going to do? Shut cities down? Charge the White House? Hold corporate America and the wealthy that runs it hostage, all at the same time? Who do you think OWNS the military and police? In their eyes, we'd be committing criminal acts. They'd blood-dust thousands of us and wouldn't think twice about doing it.

We're all participating in a giant sham that we have absolutely NO control over. You think the wealthy care about looking BAD? You think the wealthy are ASHAMED at the way they're sodomizing the citizenry? You think the wealthy give one SHIT about foreigners who happen to be on the same land as "OUR OIL"?? Shyah, they're embarrassed all the way to their portfolio management sessions.

They'd know about our participations in any sort of anti-war, anti-policy riots. We'd lose our jobs, our livelihoods and our health care, possibly get killed, and the rich that conduct this war . . . will still conduct it. And they know this and smugly sleep well knowing it.

Ever hear of the saying "It's not enough that I succeed, but everyone else must FAIL"?

The mistake you're making is that you can reason with the most powerful and money-hungry sociopaths (ones who unfortunately run everything) this nation has ever had the disgrace to be stuck with. We cannot even get a goddamned weak public option in a health care bill from a Democratic president.

Sometimes, evil is just far too ubiquitous to deal with.

[nadinbrzezinski]

109. Alas now you are not responsible

I see

[The2ndWheel]

84. If this were an opt-in society, I'd agree 100%

This is not an opt-in society however. If you were to choose to opt-out of financially supporting these wars, either your time, or your money, will be taken away, no matter what you think. As you said in a response above, the act of trying to opt-out is small and ineffective. You wouldn't be stopping a damn thing.

Another thing you said I would agree with. We do have the power to change things. But, it would take a lot of people to do it. Since you don't get to pick and choose which taxes you pay, it'll take a lot of people not paying their taxes to put a stop to this. If a lot of people do that though, then a lot of other people who depend on those taxes will be hurt.

As they say; you can't win, you can't break even, and you can't get out of the game. No matter which you choose to do, there will be consequences. Either to yourself, or collectively. Maybe both at the same time. Maybe to people you'll never meet, maybe to people close to you.

If we allowed people to pick and choose which taxes they wanted to pay, none of this would work. That only brings up other questions though.

[nadinbrzezinski]

103. IT is beyond taxes

and we have the power, but we as a society have been atomized to the point that we believe we have no power. We do...

You and I could chose to do massive work stoppages. None of that has happened, and the few of us who've even suggested this are seen as nuts.

We have tools, not pleasant at times, but we have tools. And we, collectively, have chosen to take care of number one first.

[Fire1]

86. K&R n/t

[Uben]

87. You're confusing responsibility with civic duty....

...which is disengenuous....and wrong. I am not responsible for what my government does by association. That is why this country was founded on dissent. I have never read a more warped OP! Welcome to club of.........stupidity!

[NeedleCast]

88. Ridiculous

Not surprising, considering the source of the OP, but still ridiculous.

[TexasObserver]

89. No, we don't all have blood on our hands.

Some of us have opposed the war consistently since before it began.

The claim that we're all guilty because we're all Americans is nonsense.

The original post is a rambling, chaotic, illogical rant.

[bvar22]

91. As a Nation, we ALL bear a collective responsibility.

This HAS been done in OUR name.
It is not a pleasant task to shoulder this responsibility, but it belongs to us all.
I marched and protested as much as anyone here (if not more), but that does not absolve me of the collective responsibility.
It IS the American Flag flying over the carnage.
The outrage in the Middle East is an American atrocity.
I am an American.

K&R

[NeedleCast]

92. This sort of collective responsibility is crap

[cali]

95. and it's such pretentious and stupid crap

[bvar22]

122. Ask the German people if they think "collective responsibility" is crap.

:patriot:

[nadinbrzezinski]

101. Exactly, you read Niemoller in your time as well

didn't you?

[happy_liberal]

94. There has been a concerted effort to blame everything on Obama

All of Bush's mess, war crimes, financial crimes are to be blamed on Obama. Afterall, that is why they allowed him to be elected when they still have control of our election process.

This is part of the same movement.....the war is our faults Democrats! Embrace it! We are to blame now. The republicans now say 'oh I guess Iraq was a mistake' so since Obama is in office it's all our fault now.

Some of us have been fighting since before the war, when all of the phony 'evidence' was exposed before the war...we were doing whatever we could to expose the forgery, the spying on the UN, the dossier, the UAV bullshit.......all of it was bullshit before the war and many here knew it and did what they could to raise awareness. But guess what? The leaders don't give a shit when there is money to be made and they own the voting machines. And the republican bastards wanted to believe whatever they were told, and they still do and there is not a damn thing you can do to change someone's mind when they don't want to.

[AuntPatsy]

96. I respectfully disagree Nadine, in retrospect your reasoning excuses the guilty

which allows that the innocent take the blame, in a court of law I have failed to see an adult using the excuse of perhaps a parent or friend buying them a gun or knife which led to the supposed accidental death of another and by doing so avoid having to face justice for their own actions with said weapon,

and again with your reasoning that we the average citizen must take blame for the actions of our fellow citizens then that in itself leaves every single person on this planet guilty of any and all deeds that their reigning government leaders and or fellow citizens engage in that results in crimes being committed..

Can you at least allow that with your reasoning the guilty would never find themselves facing accountability for their own personal actions whether it be with the use of a words, a sword, a pen or other such object that having used any of those scenarios resulted in another's demise?

I love reading your input but in this case I just don't' believe your op makes much sense, whether you realize it or not, with your thinking the reporters , the children and the other adults at the scene themselves become not only victims but with your reasoning they become the guilty as well,

after all, there are no government leaders and or countries in this day and age not guilty of some form of human abuse that has resulted in humans being either slain, falsely imprisoned, stripped of the simple means needed to live in today's world etc...

I hope you take a second to rethink your original op and make the appropriate changes. It is past time that the truly guilty be allowed to continue using "fall guys" in order to avoid having to face justice themselves for their own personal actions.

personal liability - do these simple two words have any other meaning that I am unaware of?

[nadinbrzezinski]

102. No it does not

At no point have I said let war criminals walk, but if you understood International Law you'd also realize that we as a people are also responsible. What do you think Reparations are based upon?

Do I expect the world to impose reparations on a still nuclear armed super power? Not in this reality, but we are also responsible.

Go on and read Niemoller, or Arendt, or a few others.

I know this is not comfortable, and hell, I touched a few cords. But this is one reason we have the Empire going on ever happily ever after... it is NOT MY RESPONSIBILITY... well it is. This is supposedly your and my government. This is not a king...

[AuntPatsy]

111. I don't believe that I expressed what I wanted to say very well because

it is not that I don't agree that we all share "some" responsibility for what our country does in our name, in the end, and in this day and age, it is not our fault period with the end results of what goes on behind closed doors, the bottom line is that we have an illusion of power, we are left with an illusion that we can change what is and has been for some time in play but it all remains that, an illusion...

Without knowing your history and ensuring you do not repeat the same mistakes you are bound to repeat them, you have said that many times and I firmly agree with you, what I don't agree with in your op is that I take the responsibility of those soldiers firing on innocent people, it is more than obvious after reviewing that tape in different avenues that they themselves must take responsibility period, what they did was wrong and sick and regardless of even myself trying to find something to redeem them with, I couldn't, I wanted to, I honestly did, but I could not...

The reality is, not all people are good people, and not all bad people are bad people...we in the end are what we have decided to become, there comes a time when you can no longer blame your little brother for pushing you first and you pushing him back in defense unaware he would fall down the stairs and break his neck in the process...can you see that?

I absolutely will not take any responsibility for what those men did, I was not there, I did not vote for this war, from day one I was against the occupation period, I argued tooth and nail with any and all who would listen to me how wrong it all was from day one, I did the only thing I was able to do at the time, I am not at fault for what happened that day or any other days, I was not the one holding the gun, I was not the one making that decision to shoot someone who was clearly not shooting at me or anyone close to me... its not about the jokes, sick as that was, in the end, it was about the actions of another, I did not pull that trigger, I did not put that gun in their hands and I did not take aim and end an innocent persons life...so no, thank you but no, you have failed to prove how in anyway I should take blame..


Shall I blame my parents, your parents? Your grandparents, mine? My teacher, your teacher, the newspaper boy down the street, Because as we both know, this take over has been in play for some time, and people freely and without force join the military, we are in effect constantly being shown several movies and or plays in progress at any given time, it is next to impossible to remain completely focused on any one of them, the only way to handle this would be to delegate, and I am sure you can understand that one, the only way to ensure we remain up to date on what is going on on every single screen is to have honest and credible partners sharing the load in gathering the information needed...you cannot in all good conscience ask any of us here on this board to take the blame for this bloody and pathetic so called war, I understand why you want to but I for one still believe you to be wrong


But I hope that in the future that you will not hold my disagreeing with you on this subject against me because I honestly do enjoy reading your input on Du and do respect your opinion even if I do not always agree...

ok?

[nadinbrzezinski]

120. On to the soldiers

You do not know the Rules of Engagement.

I don't know the rules of engagement.

War is sick, and not neat and tidy, having been in a few shoot outs were yes, even my brightly marked AMBULANCE, with with Red Crosses, was LEGALLY SHOT AT, under the rules of land warfare, I know it is not that neat or tidy.

And what in other avenues will be rightly condemned it is not in a war zone. Or what in other avenues is rightly so a crime, is NOT in a war zone. All I have from this particular incident is a pretty damning video, but I ma missing a LOT of background. I don't expect you to get this. You never served, and you have never been in quite frankly a war zone.

Not saying that what they did is right... not at all, but what they are doing is driven by policies established by CIVILIANS back home, civilians we elect. Civilians that ULTIMATELY should answer to WE THE PEOPLE.

As to power, it is only an illusion because that is OUR CHOICE. We the citizens of this country have CHOSEN to believe we are powerless. Well, that is now reality. We are powerless, because we have chosen that route. We have chosen personal comfort over civic responsibility, and we as a people point at soldiers (again we are missing a lot of info here) and accuse them of horrors, but you know what? We essentially have allowed that to happen.

Read Martin on this subject

http://www.hartford-hwp.com/archives/45a/058.html

Yep, all you said about history and all that jazz

[snooper2]

97. Actually I just have some resin stains on my thumb...

from cleaning out my pipe last night...shit's hard to clean off

[Brickbat]

98. I totally disagree.

[tcaudilllg]

110. Guilty as charged.

Been there, done that. Necessities of life and all.

[Bluerthanblue]

112. I'm a 'peace nick' and I

agree with what you say.

Until those of us who do believe there is no such thing as a good war are willing to truly sacrifice our living to demonstrate that fact things likely won't ever change.

As members of this society we can't avoid bearing our share of the responsibility for what is done by us collectively.

I own a part of what is done by this country no matter how much I might not want to.

[Greyhound]

113. But she's trying to lay blame on those of us who have done just that. n/t

[Bluerthanblue]

117. It's not a question of her "laying the blame" so much as reminding

us of our ownership.

As frustrating and unfair as it seems, I've come to the realization that it wasn't until those who were willing to put their very lives on the line (peacefully) in the cause for Civil Rights that change really began to happen.
If those of us who believe fervently in the cause of peace did the same, maybe we'd have a real chance. But it would take a unity, a commitment and energy that (I'm ashamed to admit) I'm not sure I have in me. Do you?

[Greyhound]

119. I know I was a little kid, but my parents were very heavily involved in

all of that from 1965 - 1993 (Clinton made them give up) and the peaceful activities didn't do shit from perspective as observer. We got change, such as it was, only after the nation was in flames.

Only after we got huge riots in cities across the nation, massive disobedience and disruption of their systems got results. I also remember that it was the Democratic Party power brokers that squashed and excluded the activists and got Nixon elected.

[nadinbrzezinski]

126. Exactly, that is what it will take

[TheKentuckian]

114. Things being wrongly done in our name and against our will isn't the same

as being culpable.

The logic in the OP would give a German Jew their piece of the responsibility for the Holocaust upon release from the concentration camp or blame the Japanese American for their internment.

[nadinbrzezinski]

129. No but it goes into the concept in International Law

called Reparations, look it up.

[okie]

116. I sort of agree

This is a good topic. I think the idea that American's bear some culpability for the crimes of our government has merit. We are not, after all, taking to the streets and throwing the masters out. Going to work and going about the mundane aspects of day-to-day life obviously only feeds the 'beast'.

It's too easy to just say, 'I vote democrat', or 'I protested', or 'I don't pay taxes'. None of this changes a person's position as a beneficiary of America's legacy of genocide, imperialism and aggression. Think where we got the land. Think of how the technologies that dominate our lives exist because of a military-industrial complex that cannot function without endless war. Think of the millions dead in places like the Congo because of resource wars fueled by developed nations who must have their gadgets and consumer goods. Going to the polls or making an anti-Bush placard or moving abroad or moving to a cabin in the woods is really pretty meaningless in the face of all this - when, to use an obnoxious anarchist term, the 'machine' pervades everything.

I realize this sounds scolding (the condemnation obviously includes me). But I think we dismiss the inherit violence here too easily. I don't like trite Nazi comparisons, but what do we think of the average German in the 1930s and 40s? I think we can recognize how there might be varying levels of responsibility for Nazi crimes. Now, I really don't know how we should feel when the kind of mass movement necessary to change the inhumanity in the system doesn't exist. The forces we have to beat are very strong. The best thing to do is get people thinking and see what happens.

[nadinbrzezinski]

123. You have taken the first step

as to mass movements that would work, well they have been done in the past, including mass work slowdowns and things like that

But change is painful.

And yes I did condemn myself as well, never mind I marched, and have even participated in a few national strikes. You mean you never heard of them? I know.

[xocet]

118. Sadly...

If a situation is unjust and we as a group of citizens have not done enough to stop that wrong from happening, we, the citizens of the USA, carry the responsibility for that wrong which has been done in our names.

Basically, ending this injustice requires too much sacrifice for us, so we rationalize that we cannot do anything anyway and move on.

Realistically, one could say that, though we never personally chose this course, we are too cowardly to put an end to it. We are comfortable and prefer comfort over justice.

That is the reality of our situation. In this case, all delusions of complete innocence carried by adults are inherently self-serving rationalizations.

[county worker]

121. Wrong on so many counts but here's one.

I am a Vietnam veteran. We had to make choices in who was a civilian and who wasn't. When it comes down to it you are trying to stay alive and keep your buddies alive. You make choices, personal choices.

I'm not saying that these killings were not murder. But I did not support the Iraq war. I tried to get people to not go to war.
I did not vote knowing that a congress person would vote to go to war. I did not pay for military equipment to murder civilians.

Bottom line is we all make choices and we are responsible for the outcomes of what we do on an individual level.

I know many here like the group guilt meme, but is like not taking responsibility for your personal choices and the out comes of those choices.

I am innocent of this war, I know what war is.

[nadinbrzezinski]

124. I know what war is too

but you have found the super duper secret section of the 1040 that allows you not to pay for your share of the DOD budget?

Damn when you do, please share.

[county worker]

148. You are hung up on guilt.

I am not responsible for what other people do neither are you.
Those troops chose to kill, I did not in this case.

[kgnu_fan]

125. Blood in our hands indeed - we need to stop the war!!!!

[spanone]

128. war. is. fucked. period.

[kgnu_fan]

131. Stop the killing NOW!!!!!

[autorank]

133. Excellent info k*r

I differ with you slightly since I see the leaders and their control agents as the truly responsible
parties. But it's on all of us, ultimately, at least those of us who don't get educated and fight this nonsense.

Quite philosophical...;)

[nadinbrzezinski]

134. The last week has been a reminder to me

of how tied we all are.

[Bonobo]

135. "Peace Nicks". LOL. You can't even spell it. And you spit it out with such contempt.

Very telling.

[craigmatic]

136. Don't blame me I couldn't vote in 2000 and I voted for Kerry in 2004.

I didn't make all the manufacturing jobs go over seas and leave these kids with no other alternative but to join up or work for minimum wage. I didn't get the government contract to make the weapons. I also was not pro-war when bush wanted to go to war in Iraq. I actually gave a speech against it as a school project.

[nadinbrzezinski]

137. We are still responsible

though to your credit you are actually involved in the Public Square. If we are going to take back that power... well it is up to us.

[MUAD_DIB]

138. What do you personally plan to do about it?

[BeFree]

139. well

It's right there in the op what she plans:

"some soldiers do commit war crimes, that is a reality. But I enable that. So what are we going to do about this? I expect the usual, I have gotten used to it. Blame the troops, it is the safe thing to do. Maybe take the next step and blame politicians,"

[MUAD_DIB]

140. I surmise then that the OP has done little except to start a vanity thread.

:eyes:

[Mari333]

141. so many unrec's. sad. the german people denied there were concentration camps , too.

[cali]

142. oh for the love of reason. no one is denying these wars

or how terribly wrong they are. And just as every German as not responsible for what the Nazi Regime did- particularly those who opposed it, neither is every American responsible for these wars or there associated war crimes.

I believe in neither collective guilt or collective punishment. both are sick shit.

[MadHound]

144. Are we all responsbile for the war, sure, to a certain extent.

However that extent doesn't extend to the fact that these men committed murder, killed in cold blood when they should have known better. Yes, we're all responsible for paying for this war, for electing politicians who direct these wars, but we are not responsible for pulling the trigger that kills a dozen innocents. That fault lies squarely with the soldiers.

What continues to amaze me is how many military apologists are on this board, who are willing to spread lies and bullshit in order to rid the soldiers of any responsibility or blame. Sorry, it doesn't work that way. These soldiers volunteered for this gig, they need to take the responsibility themselves.

[johnlucas]

147. This is an ignorant post

Nadinbrzezinski, this is one of the most ignorant posts I have ever read on Democratic Underground.
And let me tell you why.

You seem to be living in some dream world where principles alone can withstand any injustice.
The hippies of the 1960s didn't change as much as they thought they did. And oftentimes the times changed them.
Easy to be a dreamer when you're in your 20s. But how many people hold to those same convinctions with the same passion & dedication in their 50s?

In that case by this logic, you are personally responsible for what's going on in Sudan. You are responsible for The Taliban. You are responsible for the child sex traffic trade in Southeast Asia. You are responsible for the favelas in Brazil.

Why? Because you are a WORLD citizen. And you're typing on products made by slave labor which exploits children & families struggling for sustenance. The clothes you wear. The energy you use in your household. The water you drink. And the air you breathe. YOU are responsible for them not having those things. You are responsible for their pollution, their governments, their human rights abuses, & any other negative thing you can think of.
Hell, with the U.S.A.'s singular affect on the ecosystem you may be very well responsible for the tsunamis, earthquakes, hurricanes & typhoons that destroyed thousands if not millions of lives. You're a World Citizen after all.

In 1776, when guns had to be powdered & packed down for each shot & skill with a sword could even the score, a united citizenry could reasonably stand up against its government. But that ain't the case nowadays. No amateur militia in the world is going to be able to stand up to automatics & tanks & air strikes & bombs & poisonous gasses from the U.S. Military. I suggest that the technological advancements seen in the past 300 years were encouraged PARTICULARLY to make sure that a citizenry could never rise up against its rulers ever again.

1 million people is not even half of 1% of the total U.S. population! If that percentage were poison you wouldn't even get sick! And that's assuming you could get 1 million people together & organized long enough to get something done.

What's going to jail gonna do for you? You have no power behind bars. You can't go anywhere or do anything while in captivity.
Symbolism is for the birds. You need strategy. You need plans. How can actively & significantly change an outcome personally?

MAYBE if you can get the bulk of this 300,000,000 population together, you'll have a chance, but you & I both know that's a HELL of a long shot.
What most people do when faced with these odds is do their best to change things in their own circle.
The politicians run on their own orbit but people can personally influence situations & change it from the inside out.

That's your best hope unless you can get those numbers up.
Think practical not theoretical.
You're gonna need a real plan. Not just some emotional symbolic display.
John Lucas