The ugly truth behind manmade catastrophe...

[rasputin1952]

BP has tons of cash to pay out through Lobbyists, make cutesy commercials to tell the public they are "Green" and friendly, pay out extraordinary bonuses...but not enough to put in a back-up shut off valve to avoid catastrophe...because it was too "expensive". If that is not a WTF moment, I have no idea what is.

Just like at Massey...they gamble with lives to save a few dollars, and bring about disaster...which in turn costs them exponentially more. The stupidity is mind boggling.

How many millions would have been saved, and those miners going home to their families, if some fans would have been placed in the mines as required? I have read various reports from several hundred thousand to about $500,000 to put those fans in and comply with safety regulations. because some jerks decided that "cost" was too much, Massey is now going to pay huge Federal/state fines, have OSHA, the EPA and lawyers breathing down their necks as well as the DOJ...and they have offered a few million to each family as compensation. All of this, because they did not want to spend, say, even a million dollars. 29 people died, so a company could save money, which in turn, cost them far more than what they saved...it is stupid on ice!

BP...I have heard varying estimates for a working shut off valve and a back-up valve...all far below what they are now going to pay out....and they cannot replace the 11 people killed because of their own inaction. Once again, to "save money", they have brought about great disaster, which will far exceed the relatively small amount they would have paid to do this in the "correct" manner.

People at the top of these corporations are paid immense sums of money, and can't get it "right"...in most cases, I wouldn't allow these people withing a mile of a decision making process.

As long as cash can flow, there will be immense problems...and little recourse for those of us that feel the brunt of these incredibly stupid decisions. Shareholders need to step up to the plate as well. Because of these idiotic decisions, that were implemented to "save money", they have lost small fortunes in their portfolios, then given the old mantra, "it's the price of doing business". The whole idea behind a Board of Directors is to make money for the company...what will be lost in clean-up, fines, lawsuits and decreased sales was not worth skimping on what was essentially...the right thing to do in the first place.

I am absolutely amazed at the level of stupidity that these "MBA" types have reached. How come virtually all of us "little people" realize that the best way to deal with potential catastrophe is to avoid it...we "get it", it's an easy concept. Even the MBA that made it all the way to the WH didn't have the brains to wipe his ass after he took a dump...is there something in that degree that brings out the stupidity?

[Auggie]

1. But they are very smart when it comes to making money

for themselves and their stockholders.

[rasputin1952]

3. Not really,

In fact, they often lose money through their ineptness.

For the relatively minimal cost of "doing things right" and then having things go wrong, they lose billions in some cases. The loss that BP will feel will be felt by shareholders. They are "penny wise/pound foolish". For the cost of a possible couple of million, they lose billions...it is idiocy personified.

[Auggie]

19. You can bet the principals still raked in millions

through past incentive bonuses.

[rasputin1952]

23. Yes, they did...

but at a terrible cost...:(

[blindpig]

2. They do what they are supposed to do.

It is the way that capitalism works. Just because it doesn't make sense to us doesn't mean that it doesn't make sense to a certain class of people.

A better explanation here:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x8265428

[rasputin1952]

4. The reality is...

it doesn't make sense to a lot of them either. They get caught up in "Groupthink". The majority know this is a stupid decision, but go along with it anyway because no one has the fortitude to say, "what if something goes wrong?" When they do ask that, the "leadership" comes up with something like..."we owe it to the shareholders"...and if the gamble proves to be losers, what the shareholders get is diminished, or no return on their investment. Everyone then goes witht he gamble...even though they know it is a bad hand to play.

I saw it in the Army time after time, people get killed because "leaders" don't have a clue how to get away from a disaster. There is a lot psychology involved...some people refuse to accept that they could possibly be wrong. Another prime example is the legislation passed in AZ, or the time the lege in NJ passed the "no fried egg" law...they refuse to see the fallacy of their position, and even if when do, they will still forge ahead into the jaws of failure basting themselves in self praise as they go.

[blindpig]

6. While that certainly comes into play

it is the 'logic' of capitalism which constrains there action to seeking maximum profits regardless of other consequences. And there are no real consequences for the 'players', they can fuck up, lose millions personally, and still be oblivious to the effects, it doesn't affect their lives at all. 'Fiscal responsibility' is for the rest of us.

[rasputin1952]

9. Which is why the laws, and society have to change...

Unbridled Capitalism is as bad as anything unbridled Communism can come up with.

There is a balance, always searched for, never found, between social facets. The current law does not allow the seizure of ill gained asserts by "Capitalists", why should Maddoff be allowed to keep anything for his estate? On the otrher hand, the drug laws are so draconian, someone can be pulled over, and if they have $4000=$5000 in cash for a legitimate purpose, and no drugs connections the money can be seized! Go figure that one out. Not just that, but the vehicle can be taken, property can be confiscated w/o due process and the individual, who was on their way to buy their son/daughter furniture with the cash, can be left destitute, (this actually happened on at least one occasion).

It's seeking that balance that is important, we get close, but never seem to get there...:hi:

[blindpig]

13. Well, I'd certainly disagree with that..

Unbridled Capitalism is as bad as anything unbridled Communism can come up with.

We have yet to see "unbridled Communism". The obscene practices of cops and prosecuters got nothing to do with that. There will never be balance between the classes, as long as one class effectively has all the money they will dominate, and they will never willingly let their advantage slip.

[rasputin1952]

15. Both systems create a class of individuals that has virtually

complete power over the other class. In Capitalism, it is the monied elite, in Communism it is the leadership. There will always be classes in any society, as long as they exist, there is no true equality.

You can add to the equation intellect and education which in themselves create classes. Both systems are essentially "religions" in any case he "Communist Manifesto" speaks a lot about equality, but notice in the Manifesto that there need to be leaders to enforce the equality...that in itself defeats the very purpose.

[blindpig]

17. Technically speaking, there has never been a Communists

society, though it was certainly aspired to. Those societies were socialist, but never got past the dictatorship of the proletariat, due to factors of history and the adversarial relations with capitalist powers.

Communism has nothing to do with religion, it is firmly materialist and is not a 'belief system' but rather a very logical explanation of how we got where we are, pinpointing the baseline issue of the social organization of production and how this must be rearranged for the benefit of the masses of humanity. Marx was a revolutionary, not a utopian, he has little to say about post-capitalist society, he just wanted to get there. How that is arranged is up to the participants.

It is a new thing, we try again.

[rasputin1952]

22. Here is something to think about...

many of the political aspects we see, or have heard of have become "religions" in their own rite. Religion need not have a deity(ies), it is a system of beliefs that are adhered to out of faith...Nazi's, some fascists, some revolutions Soviet style Communism, Capitalism, American political parties, (although the RW is further into the process), all show signs of a form of religion.

It can be said that the Federal Reserve system is a religion many of adhere to whether we "worship" it or not, as the only thing that gives value to currency is "faith". In the case of the R's being taken over by fundamentalists, there is a mix between an existing traditional religion and an entity that has moved toward religious status.

One thing many people do is take the traditional explanations as the unchangeable norm. Societies evolve then devolve, it has been this way since societies have been established...devolution of the society is generally the seed that brings on the beginnings of a religious status...:hi:

[Jennicut]

12. And the biggest issue with capitalism right now is that it is up to the individual

involved in whatever business to regulate themselves from their own greed. That is asking something near impossible. It is easy for us, most of us HAVE to live in a budget. Capitalism is clearly flawed in that it rewards risky behavior time and again but not usually the safer road. At least, not lately.

[rasputin1952]

14. It gets worse...

Goldman/Sachs people did not gamble with their own money, they gambled with other people s money, and got paid win or lose. That's like opening up your bank account to someone who walks into a casino with it...they have nothing personal to lose, so they just toss it on the roulette table and hope "things work out." Losses mount, (some gains are made, but the house has the odds in it's favor)...but since there is no personal "pain" involved, why should they care?

[Jennicut]

16. Yes, that IS even worse.

And what CEO is going to not gamble with other people's money if they can get away with it? It is just totally messed up.

[unhappycamper]

5. Yes.

It's called greed. Remember the movie 'Wall Street'? The mantra for the past ten years has been "Greed is good."

[rasputin1952]

7. I have to do a Final Paper on "Wall Street" fo Business Law...

Glad you reminded me!...:D

Greed is one of the most powerful emotions humans possess, it's right up there with love and hate..actually more powerful IMO because the love of gain, and hate for those who don't adhere to it, (the "Common Man"), the whole thing is multiplied.

I don't know how much is "too much", but having millions or billions and still wanting more is pretty pathetic IMO...:hi:

[unhappycamper]

8. I'm sure you use some the M-I-C stuff I've been posting on my Journal.

Gots me plenty of examples with numbers.

:hi:

[rasputin1952]

10. I will...

:D

[Froward69]

11. Provide a safe work invironment and good wages...

and people will flock to work for you.
Ok the CEO does not make 200 times the receptionist He/She only makes 100 times the receptionist.
BUT No one ever hears about how you Killed workers and left their surviving families destitute.

[depakid]

18. As long as there aren't consequences to their behaviour- there's no reason to worry

The single biggest failure of the Obama administration was to ensure- and make sure that these types, whether they willfully poison our food or torture people- whether they engage in reckless or negligent activity that harms millions, walk away scot free or otherwise win on balance when it comes down to the accounting.

So in answer to your question- no, there's nothing really in an MBA degree that brings out stupidity per se, because the bet would be that the larger and more moneyed one is- the more likely- and sometimes very likely one is to escape the consequences

Sadly, this is the legacy thus far of the Obama administration- just as it has been of the Democratic party at large.

I myself will never forget watching CSPAN a few years back, after the Crandall Canyon Mine disaster when Robert E. "Bob" Murray essentially told Nancy Pelosi to fuck off.

That's basically what he did- anger in his face for even having to be there. Walked away scot free to his mansion after flipping off the then House Minority Leader. And people wonder why this continues- and worse- why no one has any respect for Democrats.

[Locrian]

20. exactly

>> As long as there aren't consequences to their behaviour- there's no reason to worry

And the same people willing to taser some dude running on a sports field see nothing wrong with letting people get away with fraud, extortion, etc.

[amborin]

21. K&R

[underseasurveyor]

24. Hey I just stole your first paragraph

and posted it on my FB. Of course I credited you:thumbsup: Just so you know:hi:

I wish I had the gift of writing that so many DUers have...

[rasputin1952]

25. That's fine...

Thanks...:hi: