University Park man slain after dog urinates on lawn

[NNN0LHI]

http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/local/ct-met-lawn-killer-0512-20100511,0,412660.story

By Steve Schmadeke and Lolly Bowean, Tribune reporters

8:46 p.m. CDT, May 11, 2010

A former Marine who neighbors say obsessed over his University Park lawn is being held on $3 million bail, accused of gunning down a neighbor whose puppy urinated on the man's well-manicured grass.

Charles J. Clements, 69, had won the south suburb's beautification and lawn upkeep award but also was known for threatening people who dared to set foot in his yard, neighbors said.

Joshua Funches, a 23-year-old father of two, was walking his fox terrier Gucci in the 500 block of Landau Road on Sunday night when the dog lifted its leg and went on Clements' lawn, said Funches' mother Patricia, 53.

The two men began arguing, and at some point, Clements, a retired truck driver, pulled out a pistol and pointed it at Funches, a Crete-Monee High School graduate who drove a bus, said Will County Assistant State's Attorney Sondra Denmark.

[TwilightGardener]

1. He'll just have to remember his beloved lawn from the slammer, now.

Edit to add: It's just grass, dude.

[sinkingfeeling]

2. Just insane. Another law-abiding citizen turned murderer.

[Echo In Light]

4. The Cons are getting slightly 'edgy'

[slackmaster]

30. The key word is indeed "insane"

This is obviously a disturbed man who has been screaming out for mental health care for a long time.

[havocmom]

3. Jesus H Christ, even cheney wasn't that bad re pooches piddling on his lawn

Just check with DemoTex for the details.

edited for clarity

[deutsey]

5. It was just a yard. People need to chill the fuck out.

And the victim didn't help matters by taunting the guy to shoot him. Anyone unstable enough to pull a gun on you for your puppy pooping in his yard is crazy enough to pull the trigger.

[CLANG]

48. Not only that, but it was bio-degradable!

[CakeGrrl]

59. A little beside the point, but it wasn't even POOP

If the guy hadn't seen the dog do it, he never would have known.

I live in a condo, and while us dog owners scoop poop, my neighbors are sane enough not to freak out over peeing. A good rain and it's like it never happened.

What a stupid, stupid waste. Now the idiot shooter can think about all the time he can't spend grooming his lawn and what'll happen to it when he's away. That seems to be the only thing that might hit him where he lives, so to speak.

[deutsey]

60. Yeah, I saw that detail later.

Makes it even more insane.

[county worker]

6. Well the guy with the gun probably had a concealed weapon permit and only wanted to protect himself

from the criminal element such as puppies and stuff.

[joeybee12]

13. Yup, this is why second amendment rights are soooooo important...

...throw the jackass in prison for life.

[reggie the dog]

21. illinios has no concealed weapons permits

[county worker]

24. Then the shooter was violating the law?

[Missy Vixen]

36. Nooooooo! Violating the law?

We all know that gun owners never, never violate the law! After all, it's their right to defend their property from roving bands of fox terriers!

:sarcasm:

I can hardly wait to read the defense of the gun owner, the inevitable argument about the type of gun used, the insistence that the victim wouldn't be dead right now if HE'd had a gun on his person...

:eyes:

[joeybee12]

27. But I bet he had a permit for the gun...concealed or not...n/t

[ima_sinnic]

78. yes, so apparently even the insane can get them

I suppose he "faked it" enough not to admit on the form that he wanted to protect his lawn from dog piss.

[AngryAmish]

29. Yes they do.

State police issues them and the local sheriff has to sign off that you need one. IIRC

[proteus_lives]

37. Canard-fail.

In other news, millions of Americans used and carried firearms that day with no incident.

[county worker]

58. And a million Americans took a shit today too and others were killed but who cares!

I guess like all things we have an acceptable level of tragedy we are willing to tolerate.

[proteus_lives]

64. People elect politicians you don't like or are unsuitable for the job.

You want to restrict voting rights?

Someone down the street kills a people while drunk driving. Should you lose your license too?

[county worker]

71. There is no comparison with the things you use here.

We need to drive we need to vote we don't need to carry weapons!
Someone who's life is in no more danger than mine doesn't need to carry a weapon. I can understand someone who has a job that requires protection but most of are never in that situation.

I am more afraid of armed "citizens" than I am of criminals. There is something mentally wrong with people who feel life is so dangerous that they need to carry a gun it's called irrational paranoia! They should seek professional help not a gun.

[X_Digger]

80. What level does one have to attain to qualify for 'protection'?

I'd love to have your input here- http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=118&topic_id=316554&mesg_id=316554

[Vickers]

57. U FELL!

:crazy:

[county worker]

73. What does that mean?

[LeftinOH]

7. Now that he's in jail, I reccommend all his pet-owning neighbors use his lawn as a pet-toilet

...and send him photos of the his shit-covered lawn. Bastard.

[TwilightGardener]

34. I think pics of the dead brown urine spots will make him lose his mind.

Which would be a nice additional punishment.

[hlthe2b]

8. Ahh, the bullying personna does him in...

The idiocy amazes me, but the tragic consequences remains...

[NotThisTime]

9. Nothing but terribly sad for the children left fatherless and his family :(

[YOY]

10. "Git off mah land!!!"

[DrDan]

11. how sad - a 1 year old and a 4 year old now without a Father (and one on the way)

all because of our obsession with guns

[NNN0LHI]

12. I honestly think this nut would have slit his throat if he only had a knife

I did not post this as an anti-gun thread.

And I am not big on guns.

The main reason I posted this was because I lived in this town about 30 years ago. It hit home.

Take care.

Don

[DrDan]

14. a knife might have offed the victim a moment to defend himself

not so with the gun

but who knows - just a shame that this guy was carrying a weapon of any type

a half-dozen or so lives so dramatically changed - just because of this fatal, impulsive action

[NNN0LHI]

18. I would agree but he was a former Marine

I think Marines are trained to kill with a knife? And someone with a knife and the training to go with it is no less dangerous than someone with a gun in my limited experience.

Don

[wolfgangmo]

89. Ah, but at 70 could he utilize his training still?

Did he still have the strength and flexibility to use that knife. I am only in my mid 40's and have had that kind of training. And I am not as good as I was in my 20's. Not even close (car accident in my case).

I think a case could have been made that a 70 YO with a knife is less dangerous than a 70 YO with a gun.



This is a trajedy. No one wins. A sad old man goes to prison for the rest of his life (likely). A father is dead. A wife and children are bereft and alone. It's sad.

[jeepnstein]

98. Here's what a knife can do. Not for the squemish.

A knife is every bit as dangerous as a gun, and in law enforcement circles it is regarded as equally deadly. Look up the "Tuller Drill" some time.

This is a cop who got carved up with a knife. Yeah, we get all sorts of training and stuff but things like this still happen. There's always someone out there more motivated, crazier, better trained, or luckier. Anyone who thinks they can fight unarmed against a knife is nuts. They're every bit as nuts as the guy shooting a neighbor over a little dog pee.

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_yNAJjAz1Wk4/SsEEbmxCz0I/AAAAAAAAArc/6IZNPMKw_a0/s1600-h/knife+wounds+1.jpg

[Macoy]

16. Don't Taunt the Crazy Man

If a man is unstable enough to pull a gun on you over a stupid pissing (ha ha) contest DO NOT TAUNT THE CRAZY MAN.

You pull a gun on me during an argument, guess what?...you win! I apologize for being stupid and I start to back away slowing, making soothing and calming noises

/no ITG here



Macoy

[DrDan]

19. easy to criticize . . . and to put part of the blame of the victim's death on the victim

it just minimizes the absolutely devastating impact on so many lives


Folks think they know what to do - but I really believe that until they are face-to-face in that situation, they really don't know.

[deutsey]

49. I don't want to blame the victim either, but I've had a gun pulled on me.

Let's just say any desire on my part to debate or to taunt the person with the gun suddenly vanished.

But this instance over the yard is definitely tragic and so damn senseless. The victim's family will be feeling this shock wave for decades to come. :-(

[DrDan]

51. you are among the few who actually knows what it feels like to come face-to-face with that

and you know how you will react.

Speaking for myself - I know what makes sense - but not sure I will have the wits about me to do it. Hope I never find out.

[proteus_lives]

39. Correction.

Two children are without a father because of someone's criminal behavior.

In other news, millions of Americans used and carried firearms safely and legally today.

[DrDan]

44. and two are without a Father because this guy had a gun and used it impulsively

[proteus_lives]

65. Someone drives drunk and kills a father of two.

Should you lose your license as well?

[DrDan]

66. someone who drives drunk and kills a father of two should be in jail

I assume you were trying to draw a parallel between guns and cars - not buying it. Obviously nowhere near the same thing.

[RobinA]

101. No. And I Defend My Right

to drive stinking drunk, because I've never killed anybody doing so.

[krabigirl]

72. No, it was because of obsession with lawns and hatred of others.

[DrDan]

77. and the belief that he had to have that gun with him

let's not forget that gun

[proteus_lives]

79. Because focusing on it is easier than dealing with the real problems.

One of the defining attributes of the anti-crowd is a unwillingness to tackle the tough issues.

[DrDan]

87. guns are real problems

ask the Mother of those 2 children

ask the relatives of the shooter

[proteus_lives]

93. No, they're not.

Ask the millions of gun-owners in the U.S. (Including this DUer) who use, own and carry firearms legally and responsibly.

This event is a question of a old-man going down-hill and no one caught it. Mental-health issues, elderly issues. Just some of ones you and yours won't address because it's easier to ban/strip/censor.

[DrDan]

97. of course they are - to deny it prevents a solution

"you and yours won't address because it is easier to ban/strip/censor" - why must you try to make this personal?

[wolfgangmo]

94. Cool it with the divisive language -- please?

If you have problems with what others have said in the past or on other venues then leave those feelings there and deal with the issues and not the personalities.

What, to you, are the tough issues? This might be a good place to start a reasonable conversation. I likely agree with you, but the opponents of concealed carry laws have some valid points, and if you are honest you will admit that some of that the proponents say is lacking in any logical cohesiveness.

[ieoeja]

100. He did not have that gun with him.

After the initial exchange he went back inside. The victim resumed his walk down the street. The murderer, having retrieved his firearm, pursued the victim past several lots/houses so he could threaten the victim with a firearm. The victim made one statement in response.

The murderer then shot him.

[DrDan]

102. that is not in the article

"The two men began arguing, and at some point, Clements, a retired truck driver, pulled out a pistol and pointed it at Funches, a Crete-Monee High School graduate who drove a bus, said Will County Assistant State's Attorney Sondra Denmark."

That is what the article states.


But if there is an update - then looks to me like 1st degree murder.

[ieoeja]

103. It is at the bottom of this article. Warning: a lot of readers there are cheering the man!?!

http://www.suntimes.com/news/brown/2268472,CST-NWS-brown13.article

Going back in for the gun is "according to his mother someone said". But the location of the shooting several houses away from the murderer's house certainly makes it clear the man was not trying to drive the man away from his property, but rather pursued him.

I would have thought a 1st degree conviction would be easy. But judging from the comments on that article, it appears a hefty percentage of the population considers this man a hero.

[DrDan]

105. man - just read through those comments

Just hard to believe that there are those that defend him taking a life because he was a Marine and "served" his country.

I did also - certainly does not give me the right to take the law into my own hands.

Those were some pretty amazing posts.

[Lorien]

95. And lawns. Smithsonian magazine had an article a few years back about the white male

American lawn obsession. According to them it's a "uniquely American" phenomenon. Some of the pathetically lawn obsessed will spend hours crawling over their lawns with scissors and a level. They tend to die early from the heavy use of chemical fertilizers and roundup. What a way to waste a life!

[Tailormyst]

104. This guy would have found something else to use if he did not have the gun.

He was clearly disturbed to the point where he was homicidal.

[mainer]

15. If he hadn't had a gun, he wouldn't be going to prison.

That's the problem with guns -- not the weapons themselves, but the fact they offer impulsive people the chance to do things they later regret.

[brendan120678]

20. If he hadn't had a gun, he wouldn't be going to prison??

How do you know?

What if he had beat the bloody shit out of the dog owner with his fists instead?
Shouldn't he go to prison for assault & battery if that were the case?

[daleo]

43. A 69 year old vs a 23 year old in a fist fight?

That's not a bet I would take. Common sense tells you that the gun gave the older man a significant edge he wouldn't have had otherwise, Marine or not.

[NNN0LHI]

45. I have a father in-law who at 69 could have snapped me in half like a twig when I was 23

He is built like a bull. Solid as a rock. I guarantee his worst day physically was better than my best day physically. I am not exaggerating.

In many instances age is not that important.

Don

[daleo]

47. It can happen, on occasion

My dad was like that too (and he was a soldier once). But it's a longshot.

[-..__...]

55. Epic Beard Man would take that bet.

:smoke:

[daleo]

74. In the famous words of Damon Runyon

The battle is not always to the strong, nor the race to the swift, but that's how the smart money bets.

[wolfgangmo]

96. Well....

He WAS a marine. Old and tricky may not always win out against young and headstrong every time, but that is where the smart money bets. At least some of the time.

[daleo]

108. What's tricky about gunning someone down in cold blood?

And it hardly took special Marine training to pull a trigger on an unarmed man.

[Upton]

25. Maybe if the guy who was walking the dog had a gun

he wouldn't be dead..

[DrDan]

52. that's the ticket . . . more guns

[wolfgangmo]

99. And maybe...

... if the dog had been packin' heat, he could have drawn down and diffused the situation.

And maybe if a cop had been standing there. And maybe.


Maybe gets us no where. Isn't anyone going to try to deal with this issue calmly and try to state your position and listen to the other one?

[slackmaster]

31. You're making two IMO very weak assumptions

1. That the guy wouldn't have murdered the man with a knife, his bare hands, etc. and

2. That he regrets what he did.

[proteus_lives]

38. So in your mind.....

That's a valid reason to strip everyone of their rights?

[JCMach1]

42. +1

I have always said that since our Conservative friends always prefer original intent when it comes to the constitution that it is quite clear that the meaning of the second deals only with muzzle loading black powder weapons.

What shocks me these days is how many Democrats support NRA positions on guns. :puke:

[slackmaster]

54. Please turn off your computer at once

Since it is quite clear that the meaning of the First Amendment deals only with quill pens and parchment.

BTW - Do you have any idea what a gunshot wound from an 18th Century muzzle-loading black powder musket fired at close range looks like?

[JCMach1]

62. Should have used the *sarcasm* icon...

However, I put it to you gun control... especially handgun control is not such a bad idea.

[slackmaster]

76. I believe in handgun control too

Isosceles or Weaver stance, whichever way is more comfortable, and use both hands.

[X_Digger]

83. Modified weaver for teh win. n/t

[whathehell]

17. Jeebus...when I take my dog for a walk,

she does ocassionally urinate on someone's lawn.

I always "poop-scoop"..but what can I do about uring..use a sponge?

..Peoples be crazy now!:scared:

[ensho]

22. I had a man hollar nasty at me when 2 of my dogs walked on the edge of his

huge lawn with MUDDY feet.

[crim son]

23. Few things piss me off more than seeing a dog owner

stand by while their darling pet shits on my property, and then walks away leaving the disgusting mess for me to clean up: I swear I am sorely tempted to follow them and shit on their lawn in retaliation. Having said that, temptation has never turned to action and one has to wonder WTF is wrong with somebody who values their lawn above human life. Amazing and vile.

[Bucky]

26. Wasn't there a recent Clint Eastwood movie with basically this plot?

[slackmaster]

28. Not even close

:eyes:

I assume you are thinking of Gran Torino. It's a pretty good movie. Don't try to judge it by a 3-second sound bite from a trailer.

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt1205489/

[edbermac]

69. I think Magnum Force.

Clint said a line to bad guy cop Hal Holbrook about how the vigilante cops in the film will start shooting people for jaywalking or having their dogs piss on your lawn.

[MrScorpio]

32. To be fair, the young guy was armed with a puppy.

With that bit of gallows humor out of the way, first off, my condolences go out the Funches family on their tragic loss.

Second, I hope Clements gets locked up and they throw away the key.

And lastly, this is just another example of why most people should not bear arms.

[alcibiades_mystery]

33. I think we know who will take over the job of lawn care at Statesville!

:wow:

[The Backlash Cometh]

35. Jesus.

I think the obsession over lawn maintenance has finally jumped the shark.

[bullwinkle428]

40. A homeowner once started yelling at me because my dog

was using the STREET in front of his house to take care of his business!! He was complaining that his little darlings might try to pick it up and play with it! :dunce:

I wanted to counter with something like "If you can't teach your kids not to play with feces, than you're doing a pretty lousy job as a parent!"

[RamboLiberal]

41. The shooter is an Anal Retentive AHole IMHO

The two men began arguing, and at some point, Clements, a retired truck driver, pulled out a pistol and pointed it at Funches, a Crete-Monee High School graduate who drove a bus, said Will County Assistant State's Attorney Sondra Denmark.

Witnesses said Funches then said to Clements, "Next time you pull out a pistol, why don't you use it?" Denmark said. At that point, witnesses said they saw orange and white light and heard a loud noise. They saw Funches fall to the ground.

"It was all over a little wooden plaque," said an emotional Patricia Funches, referring to the beautification award. "It was a senseless death."

Clements then returned to his house and changed his clothes. When University Park police arrived, they found the master landscaper in his garage with the door open.

"I knew you were coming for me," he told police, according to Denmark. "That's why I changed my clothes. I knew you were coming for me."

http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/local/ct-met-lawn-killer-0512-20100511,0,412660.story

The shooter:

[lapislzi]

46. Property trumps human life

You could look it up.

Some people's values are beyond fucked up. In what universe did this hotheaded idiot think he was justified in shooting another human being? Oh, scratch that. He didn't think, period.

[TexasObserver]

50. It is a tragedy that should have been averted.

I can't help but wonder why the dead man was arguing with the homeowner. He should have apologized for using the lawn and been on his way. We likely won't know until the trial what the dead man said or did to escalate the situation.

The other man was wrong to pull a gun, and wrong to use it. He'll likely go to prison for that, but he probably won't get many years. He confronted a trespasser and ordered him off. The rest was what happens when two jackasses confront each other. One or both of them end up hurt.

Anyone who allows their dog to urinate or take a dump on the property of another is rude and thoughtless. Why people think it is ok for their dog to do that is a mystery. People should make sure their dog pees and craps on their own lawn, and if they can't train him, hire someone who can.

[geardaddy]

53. Yikes

Judge Marzell Richardson ordered Clements, who had no criminal history, held in lieu of $3 million bail Tuesday on first- and second-degree murder charges. He noted that Clements allegedly told Funches that he would be found innocent if arrested.

emphasis mine

That almost sounds like pre-meditation.

[county worker]

61. You are equating a dog peeing on a lawn with a guy shooting the dog owner?

Strange!

See the big thing here is a guy was shot not a dog peed on a lawn!

[grantcart]

63. Huh? The article indicated that the gunman terrorized his neighbors

including yelling at someone who accidently stepped on his lawn.

[RamboLiberal]

67. Are you a dog owner?

Sometimes the dog lifts their leg or starts squatting before you can even act while they are on a leash. And this guy was walking a puppy which means the animal probably had little training.

As a dog owner I try to respect people's property and I sure clean up any poop but I've almost been dragging mine away when she squatted really quickly and started going.

[Lorien]

86. How ANY property owner can freak out over puppy piss is beyond me

are they going to shoot every bird, mammal and reptile that takes a dump or piss on their precious, beloved lawn? A dog owner not picking up puppy poo is one thing, but piss is just...piss! The shooter was outright deranged; a psychotic nutjob who should be locked away for the rest of has pathetic, wasted lawn obsessed life.

[JI7]

68. your post is full of blaming the victim

[Name removed]

85. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[ieoeja]

107. And then went inside, got a gun, found the "trespasser" several houses away, and murdered him.

Those details were missing from the original story. Turns out he was not trying to "drive away" a trespasser. He just decided to kill someone who pissed him off.

[TexasObserver]

109. If those are the facts, it is premediated, and the killer gets capital conviction.

If that's what happened, the older man's defense goes out the window. Only if he was on his property and felt threatened could he assert such. But if he did as you report, then he simply chased down and shot someone who had left his property and was no longer any kind of threat.

You never want to challenge someone on their property. They have a legal right to be there, and everyone else doesn't.

If it is as you stated, then the older man will likely get life with no possibility of parole. His life expectancy is probably 16 years or so.

[Rex]

56. Wow, what a statement for how it really is in America. No health insurance, don't get sick,

if you are homeless don't get hurt or try and help anyone in public, if you have a puppy don't let him wee on someone elses lawn. Just don't, everything else will be fine. Series.

[Lorien]

91. And, according to the rabid brainwashed goose stepping authoritarians here

that's the way it should be. :eyes:

[zonkers]

92. Sucks.

[jpak]

70. If the dog owner had had a gun he could have defended himself - everyone should carry

not

fucking gun nuts

:puke:

[county worker]

75. In "LA Story" Steve Martin is driving in his car with his wife on a L A freeway and every driver has

a gun and is shooting at everyone else. It is supposed to be satire. That was made in 1991, now it is close to reality!

[slampoet]

81. He's over 65. This murderer won't serve any time. The elderly never do.

Recall that grandpa who ran over and killed 9 people at a flea market?

[Lorien]

90. Unless they sell pot. nt

[Urban Prairie]

82. I had a neighbor who was anal about his bent grass, putting green lawn..

Used to stand in the foyer of his front door, in his wife-beaters, glaring at us kids walking or riding by on our bikes on the sidewalk. I recently did a Google street-view walk down my former neigborhood, and his former golf-course worthy lawn is now overgrown with weeds and has patches of bare ground here and there.

[Initech]

84. Wasnt this the exact plot of the movie Gran Torino?

[Lorien]

88. No.

[RamboLiberal]

106. More extensive writeup on this story

The mail carriers certainly knew how Clements felt, and for any substitute mailmen, there was a handmade sign right there on the mailbox to remind them.

"Please use sidewalk and driveway to access my property and not my lawn. Thank you, Charles J. Clements. Posted 2-9-10," it read.

Will County prosecutors made no mention of the dog urinating in the yard when they outlined their case at a bond hearing Tuesday, saying only that Funches was walking the dog and crossed the lawn, which resulted in words exchanged with Clements and escalated into a shouting match and some shoving before the older man pulled a gun and shot him.

Funches' mother said she was told by neighbors that after the initial arguments Clements went back into his house to get the gun and returned to shoot her son, who by then was several houses down the block on his way home, which would undermine any self-defense claim.

Patricia Williams, 16, pointed out to me the weed-strewn yard where Funches was actually shot.

You wonder if Clements would have stopped himself if it had meant spilling blood in his own yard.

http://www.suntimes.com/news/brown/2268472,CST-NWS-brown13.article