Dow's up.....

[a kennedy]

Latest Market Numbers
Index Last Change % change YTD
DOW 10,900.39 152.13 1.42% 4.53%
NASDAQ 2,424.10 48.79 2.05% 6.83%
S&P 500 1,171.68 15.89 1.37% 5.07%

I'm usually the first to whine and cry about the Dow going down so thought I'd post when it's up too....

IT'S UP!!! :applause:

sorry this is hard to read....go here: http://www.usatoday.com/money/default.htm

edit to include link

[FreakinDJ]

1. If it went up every day - it would be headed to a HUGE correction

[Oregone]

2. And the investor class cheers!

[FreakinDJ]

3. I'm a working stiff and I'm cheering

[Oregone]

4. Stockholm Syndrome is a hoot, aint it?

:)

Cheer on, brotha!

[FreakinDJ]

20. Don't you just love the "Obama Fail" crowd

[Oregone]

23. I'm ambivalent. Every one seems to have their schtick these days

Gets in the way of thinking most often

[olegramps]

65. The investor crowd includes substantial company retirement accounts. You want those wiped out.?

[Oregone]

69. Sure. I also want to mandate abortion

[dmallind]

5. You mean the 50% of all Americans who have equities in some investment vehicle or another? NT

[Hannah Bell]

6. you mean the top 1%, who owns 40+% of all stocks/mutual funds?

or you mean the next 9%, who own another 40%?

or the bottom 90%, who own less than 20%?

http://sociology.ucsc.edu/whorulesamerica/power/wealth.html

[leftynyc]

7. I'm confused by your question

So, because the top 1% owns 40% of stocks I should forget about the fact that my 401(k) and some personal investments are involved in the market and I shouldn't care which direction it's moving?

Count me among those cheering the upwards motion.

[Hannah Bell]

8. US stocks 80% owned by top 10%. The pretense of the previous poster that the ups & downs

of the stock market have any great relevance for all but a narrow slice of the population = bogus.

Latest uptick = reaction of "investors" to the news that their fraud will once again be bailed out on the backs of working people.

20% un(der)employment, 40% of all US profits go to wall street, obama's phoney "deficit commission" preparing to cut social security & medicare - that has relevance.

[Oregone]

10. The thing is that you are pretending the sheer number of invested Americans should make average Joe

give a shit.

But the average Joe has a pitiful stake in the stock market; a pitiful stake that makes them feel like an important owner who needs to follow the market. And since their 401K has all but replaced the old notion of pensions, they almost have to.

At the end of the day, the mass majority of ownership lies in the hands of the elite few who happen to have amassed most of the wealth in the nation. Keeping the slave mentality isn't going to change that. So what...maybe if your master goes down, the shack he lets you live in might go down too...but perhaps you will have opportunities abound after that point.

Stop protecting your masters, crying for their losses, and tying your futures to their success.

[leftynyc]

12. The slavery angle earns you an eyeroll

Very simply - I've had a 401(k) for over 20 years. My employers have matched my contributions all those years and as a result, I have myself a very nice nest egg. You want to crap all over somebody's investments because I'm not a multi-billionaire, knock yourself out. In my opinion, you sound like sour grapes is your food of choice.

[Oregone]

18. You haven't looked around lately, have you?

:)

Hyperbolic comparison or not, capitalism does make one subservient to the investor class. If a better system can be obtain, it cannot be done so by preserving the current one. Unfortunately, people lack the courage and autonomy to abandon concerns for their "shelter"/stake and fight for beneficial change.

[leftynyc]

24. Oh - I get it

You don't think capitalism works. What's your idea and which country has made a success of it?

[Oregone]

26. My pref is a mixed economy of socialism for necessary goods/services and co-op private ownership

Remove infinite ROI on private investment and cap it at a 20-30 year return, and distribute private shares back to employees proportionally to their wages.

Essentially, create a system that rewards both workers and investors, but does not punish workers perpetually in order to infinitely reward initial investment.

The longer someone works for a company, and the higher the position, the more shares they receive each year (and therefore, the more incentive). The longer an owner does not work for a company, the more shares they sell back to the company to be redistributed (for an investor, this is called a return; for a worker, its called a pension).

Many countries have success with mixed socialism, but countries do not use co-op private investment (why would private owners let such a system take hold). There are plenty of successful employee owned businesses, but not economies. But before there were various widespread systems, there were only isolated examples to draw from.

Switching from infinite, perpetual, inheritable ROI to limited ROI on private investment wouldn't fundamentally change how a company *operates*, but only how it distributes wealth over a 30 year span and creates worker incentives. It isn't a dramatic shift to be honest, but a step in the right direction.


On edit: Capitalism works great BTW. It just doesn't work great in the interests of the working class. It efficiently distribution wealth to the upper classes, which is proven through statistics on growing wealth disparity

[leftynyc]

44. Thank you for a reasoned

answer with no hyperbole. I agree with your stand. In my mind, France comes closest to what you are speaking about.

That said, I'm still gonna cheer the upward swing of the market. Makes my teeny tiny 401(k) grow.

[Oregone]

49. When you recognize that the current system could potentially be...

detrimental to the condition of workers, it creates quite a dilemma about news like this (which benefits everyone with ownership).

I understand your tiny 401K grows, and thats great on a personally level. Congrats to everyone! But sometimes the temporary success of this system impedes any progress to create a better one. So there is some internal conflict about how to regard this news.

It just so happens that in many cases, any gains in wealth people receive through ownership are negated by their own inability to profit directly from their own labor (over a long period of time). Hence, I feel that its always better to inform about the actual system, no matter what the news, so that people can start understanding these concepts (though Im probably not the best advocate).

Unfortunately, I come off like an insensitive dick in good times. Thats the way the cookie crumbles, but I understand all the reactions as well.

Thanks for listening.

[Hannah Bell]

28. oh, it "works". just not for most people. that's why 10% of the population owns the stock market.

& the government, the media, the education system, the corporations, the real estate, & your mind.

[leftynyc]

42. My question stands

In your mind, what does work and where is the success story?

[Hannah Bell]

46. i'd settle for the new deal consensus.

but it's beside the point. pointing out that this system DOESN'T WORK FOR THE MAJORITY OF THE POPULATION doesn't oblige me to present a ten-point plan to you.

[Oregone]

50. The reason Im apprehensive of this approach is...

capitalism has continually proven it cannot stand without a socialistic crutch to shore up its failings to the people. Will we always end up, after so many years, at a juncture when a new crutch is needed? It sure seems like the cyclic pain in the meantime time may not be worth it.

The system works efficiently to distribute wealth to the elite, to such a point that they amass enough power to break down the system and speed up disparity. Is there not a better way?

Who wouldn't settle for this? But...long term, people have got to change their thinking. No man should be able to continually pass down a "right" to their great grandchildren to profit forever off the labor of another man. This alien concept has had a good run and failed continually.

[Hannah Bell]

59. i don't disagree with a thing you've said.

[leftynyc]

62. I didn't oblige you to do anything

It's obviously something you feel strongly about. Thought you may have some answers as to what you think would work rather than just complaining...my mistake.

[dmallind]

13. It's a stake relevant to them

I'm no Buffet or Gates so I don't expect their returns in nominal terms. But being a sensible investor my investments are commensurate with my income and my savings rate. There are plenty of people poorer than me who will see lower returns than me, but we all see the same percentage from the same investments.

So the superwealthy with 20M invested make 2M when the market goes up 10% (well only if they sell, but same goes for any nominal loss).

And the middle class investor with 200K makes 20K. Chump change to the wealthy, but significant for the echelon with that kind of investment


And the poor working stiff with a minimum 401K and a 20K fund makes 2K. Not much for the comfy suburbanite and beneath the notice of the plutocrat, but a good uptick for the demographic that can only afford to save $20K total.

Percentages work the same for everybody. If you make a lot of money and only have a trivial amount invested it's your own fault. If you invest appropriate to your income any gains will be significant to your income level. And of course any losses too. I don't lose as much as billionaires, but I lose more than the working poor with a minimal 401K when things go pear-shaped.

[Hannah Bell]

15. most americans own *no* stocks. of those who do, most own a few thousand dollars worth.

jobs & social spending = *way* more important.

[Oregone]

21. But perhaps preserving the system that allows that stake to exist is detrimental to them

Perhaps. Its worth a thought, no? :)

[dmallind]

9. So that 20% didn't go up? Or it's bad news that it did?

Only choices you have if this is not good news.

[Oregone]

11. 20% divided by the masses equals a pitiful amount

So why cheer pennies and peanuts?

[dmallind]

14. It's exactly the same rate of their investment as it is for the wealthy

If you can only afford to invest a small amount you are poor enough where a small gain is significant to you.

[Hannah Bell]

17. a job is more important. 2/3 of the population relies on social security for half or more of their

retirement income; for 1/3, it's 100% of their retirement income.

[dmallind]

64. So then by your own definitions 2/3 have other investments and should welcome gains. NT

[Rebubula]

16. LOLZ

Whatever....

Pennies and peanuts is fine by me. Just because someone else gets more does not mean that I cannot be happy with what I get.

Life is not fair and it never has been. You have to be happy with what you have or you will remain a miserable prick. Ohhh...I see you have that down pat.

[Hannah Bell]

19. mmm - difference of opinion here on who the "miserable prick" is...

imo, it would be the person who starts the name-calling

[Oregone]

22. "does not mean that I cannot be happy with what I get"

You do know where that money/wealth comes from, right?

Wealth produced from working class labor.

If you are a member of the working class, its possible that you are receiving less profits from other's labor through your ownership than you are having funneled away from your labor through capitalism.

Worth a thought, no? :)

[olegramps]

66. Very true, but who is the working classes' worst enemy?

It was the working class who deserted the unions. Why pay union dues when I can get the same benefits without paying those blood suckers was the mantra of the young workers who were born into the Fair Deal society and Union membership went from 36% to 6% and their jobs went the same way. That was the bull crap that the working class bought.

A system in which you can earn a living ware and a good pension coupled with a piece of the economic pie in the way of stocks, bonds, IRA's or what ever is what the working class deserve. But, they won't get it by sitting on the ass and crying about how they are getting screwed. Just remember the millions of toasters, refrigerators, sewing machines...are being still made, we just "ain't" making them anymore.

[HughMoran]

29. I agree

especially with the last sentence.

[Hannah Bell]

33. the poster didn't call *you* any names. not sure why you feel it necessary to do so.

[Oregone]

36. We have a history

Love gone wrong. It was so sweet at first, but it ended like a Tiger Woods fling.

I feel used.

[HughMoran]

38. lol

At least you have a sense of humor about it.

Alas, what could have been... :P

[Hannah Bell]

39. my condolences - sweetened through the ages just like wine - me-mo-rioes!

[Hannah Bell]

35. for most of the population, who cares? it doesn't benefit them, & in fact, hurts them.

good that you're making some bucks, though.

[HughMoran]

27. Popcorn

...and peanuts.

[Oregone]

32. No, but you might try laughing at yourself if you like black humor

[HughMoran]

40. Believe me,

I have a huge smile on my face right now :D

[ShortnFiery]

68. +1000

:thumbsup:

[HughMoran]

25. That would be me - poor city kid trying to make a life for my family

:applause:

[Oregone]

30. Your life is like West Side Story all over again.

Don't ask me how. Ive never seen it

[Hannah Bell]

31. "everything's free in a-mer-i-ca -- for a small fee in a-mer-i-ca!"

[HughMoran]

37. It is strangely like West Side Story in some aspects

...well, and that's all I'll say about that.

[Name removed]

34. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Oregone]

41. You know, everyone whines every time their precious system goes bust (every couple years now)

Its like everyone is on an emotional roller coaster, but its just your bipolar capitalistic economy talking. But I don't admonish people who whine when they hurt....rather, I am on their side. Lets end the hurting for good. Are the highs really worth the lows?

At least some are consistent. Others only whine and call for socialism to bail out their bosses when they are hurting, and then throw money and hope at the cock fight when they are in the clear.

Isn't it time people learn from their mistakes?

[NeedleCast]

45. I don't

perhaps because I have enough market awareness to know that age 36, with the limited amount I've got invested, the daily or even yearly ups and downs of the market mean very little to me. That and awareness that the market has little to do with the economy at a tangible level.

Are the highs really worth the lows? Sure, to someone like me, as neither one means much to me right now...and wont when I'm 45 either...and wont when I'm 55 and have mostly moved my money to safer areas of my 401(k). The Wall Street types are welcome to their chaos and occasional window dives.

[Oregone]

52. I didn't have anything invested during the Enron scandal, but I "whined"

Other people lost their retirement. There was so much pain.

And yes...I consider these scandals and inherent part of the actual system.


"Are the highs really worth the lows? Sure, to someone like me, as neither one means much to me right now"

Im younger than you, but when I see the constant pain spread when a bubbled/speculative/scammed economy implodes, it makes me wonder, on behalf of those affected.

[NeedleCast]

54. Apples and Oranges

The stock market (and 401ks in general) are nothing like the situation at Enron. In fact, Enron is a good argument for doing away with penssions.

People with diverse 401k or IRA or other retirment plans felt very little sting when Enron collapsed. Again, the daily or even moderate term fluctuations of the stock market mean very little to most people who have 401k retirement savings. Now, if you're 60 years old and leave your money in stocks as the market tumbles 6500 points, you don't have anyone to blame but yourself really.

As I've said in other threads, anyone who has a 401(k) should, at a minimum, do some basic research into where they need to be putting their money inside said plan and at what point they need to move some, most or all of it to safer waters.

[Oregone]

56. Not a bit

These scams are very much dependent upon the ability to allocate and manipulate private ownership of the means of production. The system itself is vulnerable to wild speculation and downright unethical greed; sometimes it thrives on such and rewards it greatly.

[Hannah Bell]

60. of course they are.

[Name removed]

43. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[NeedleCast]

47. There is no spoon (whirlwind) for me

Market goes up, Market goes down. Doesn't matter much to someone with a few tens of thousands in a 401k unless that money is (stupidly) still sitting in equities at age 60.

(As to the casting of straw, herring and personal attacks...did I really manage to do all that in the six word post you replied to? That's pretty impressive...)

[Hannah Bell]

48. general reference to the types who call posters "emo's"

if you lose your job at 60, doesn't matter where you park your money, you'll be drawing it down

[NeedleCast]

51. Person I replied to has 13,000 posts and I don't think I've ever

heard him say a single positive thing.

True about losing your job at 60 but I don't know how that relates to the dow being up. That's assuming you don't have some other source of savings to draw down first. I spent about six months over the last three years laid off and never touched my retirement fund.

While it may seem cruel, the people who were close to retirement and took a bath when the market crashed in 09 are most likely in that positon because of poor investment choices.

[Oregone]

53. "I don't think I've ever heard him say a single positive thing"

I reserve those for private messages to the people I stalk. Would you like me to add you to the list?



The weather is absolutely beautiful today!

[NeedleCast]

55. Well there you go

You're all rainbows and sunshine after all.

[Oregone]

57. I fart rainbows

[Hannah Bell]

58. so what? he didn't call you any names.

[ShortnFiery]

67. Yes, that doesn't include me. We're the paycheck to paycheck class. :-) eom

[William Z. Foster]

61. oh hooray

That usually means things are very much "down" for working people, then.

[quaker bill]

63. You see,

any movement down is confirmation of the coming financial collapse and the much predicted economic armageddon, and movements up only benefit the wealthy elite proving nothing. Get with the program.

My modest little investment, part of that 10 percent slice not held by the wealthy few, is up 80 percent since President Obama took office. While I am not about to retire on the gains, I am not complaining either.