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Home » Discuss » Archives » General Discussion (1/22-2007 thru 12/14/2010) Donate to DU
 
berni_mccoy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-15-10 09:48 AM
Original message
Labels and Boxes
Edited on Tue Jun-15-10 09:51 AM by berni_mccoy
“A name is a label, and as soon as there is a label, the ideas disappear and out comes label-worship and label-bashing, and instead of living by a theme of ideas, people begin dying for labels... and the last thing the world needs is another religion.” -- Richard Bach

When I grew up in the midwest, both my parents were union workers, members of UAW. I grew up in dairy country too, so from the time I was twelve until the time I was 16, I worked on farms, hard physical labor, during the summer. Money was very tight and if I wanted anything besides 2nd generation hand-me-downs to wear, well, I had to find the money for it. My family also was a believer in serving our country, three of four children serving, myself included, my father a lifetime service member and his father a World War II veteran. Since the day I could vote, there was only one mindset: Democratic.

I've been away from this site for some time as I've seen it become hostile to Democratic members. Members who have been here a very long time. Members like myself. I'm not a centrist Democrat. I'm not a progressive Democrat. I'm not an FDR Democrat. I'm just a Democrat. I believe in the principles of the party. Protect the workers. Scrutinize the corporations. Take care of the poor and the sick. The Military is for defense. Equality for all people, men, women, religious, anti-religious, gay and straight. Expose government corruption and operate the government as intended by the Constitution: by the people for the people.

The majority of hostility toward Democratic members centers around President Obama. It should have easily been foreseen that the first African American President would bring out strong feelings. The primaries were just a foreshadowing of what would come. Now, if one defends President Obama here, they are labelled, at best, as a centrist, at worse, well, I won't get into the labels that are put on his supporters here. But we are boxed in, tight, to be sure. Many, like me, have not felt safe expressing our opinions here as we choose to expose media bias and represent factual posts to counter some of the hyperbolic attacks aimed at President Obama. Are there valid criticisms? Absolutely. I have not agreed with every decision Obama has made. I did not approve of some of his appointees and I have serious issues with his policy on illegal drugs. I've seen valid criticisms put forth by long standing members here and I am fine with them.

But this site and it's mechanics are being used to abuse long-time members who have been staunch defenders of liberal ideology. And it has been used to divide us up and box us into categories... cheerleaders, haters, centrists, extremists, you name it. Everybody has been put into some box. It's driven serious fights between good members, to the point that some are banned and others abandon DU. The Admins have acknowledged that there are probably people paid to post, disrupt and organize attacks, but there is really no way to prove it unless they in some way expose themselves. I do believe that there are people who use Democratic Underground to attack liberals. Great posts, factual posts, get unrec'd into oblivian where baseless attacks on Obama will rise to the greatest page. It's not the big items, but there are many points that get buried, and over time, could make a difference to the general attitudes and mindset here. And as long standing member after long standing member is banned or abandons DU, the external influences become increasingly larger and more potent.

Just because members defend President Obama, his policies or his methods, does not make those members centrists, corporatists or anything else. It makes them supportive of Obama and the particular issues they defend. Obama isn't perfect. But he is one thing: A Democrat. Members who defended the resulting HCR legislation are far more likely to be Democrats with chronically sick children then they are to be insurance shills. And yet, that is what I've been labelled as here, even though, if you check my history on this site, I am anything but. But it's far easier to label someone you disagree with as something that is not like you, something that is less than you, simply because you don't agree with them. Democratic members have been dehumanized here because they support Obama.

I was moved to post this because I read something a friend of mine wrote. He said:

What's not okay, however, is the growing attempts to discredit and marginalize the democratic left. We are not “whack jobs” nor any of the other insulting names that are too often used by establishment democrats and others to describe us. We are, rather, Malcolm X Democrats, Martin Luther King Democrats, and Vine Deloria Democrats, among other good things. Our time, money and votes are good enough come election season. Our dollars aren't kept in separate accounts, our time spent at campaign headquarters has as many minutes per hour as anyone's, and our votes aren't tallied on separate ballot boxes. Establishment democrats need to respect that, and to respect our humanity.


I echo this sentiment strongly. But I would add that what also is not okay is the growing attempts to discredit and marginalize any Democrat, even those who choose to continue to support President Obama. We are as hard working for progress as anyone else here. We are as committed to the same principles as anyone else. We are as left as those who choose to disagree, or worse, attack President Obama. We, like President Obama, aren't perfect. But we are Democrats.
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el_bryanto Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-15-10 09:56 AM
Response to Original message
1. Well Said
I think the default should be to assume that we all want what's best for this country even if we disagree with how to get there.

Bryant
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berni_mccoy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-15-10 10:21 AM
Response to Reply #1
3. The disagreements on how to get there
Edited on Tue Jun-15-10 10:21 AM by berni_mccoy
are often far smaller than the volume of the arguments here. It's amazing to see people actually look for fights over small differences.
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socialist_n_TN Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-15-10 10:00 AM
Response to Original message
2. Very thoughtful. The problem as I see it as a newbie
is that some folks don't think Obama is living up to the ideals you yourself professed in the 3rd paragraph of your OP. Now, I still support Obama, but I DO have a problem with a LOT of his decisions. Nobody voted for W's 3rd term and it seems like in a LOT of areas that's what we've gotten.

Hey even on here I'm pretty left wing, but I'm going to give the guy more chances before I give up entirely on him. He inherited a BIG pile of steaming shit and I knew it would take a while to clean it up. More than 2 years for sure. I'd just like to see a little more cleaning and a little less spreading it around. Or at least a PLAN for cleaning that doesn't involve "triangulating" and "bipartisanship", neither of which seems to be the best way to clean.

Just one newbie's opinion.
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laughingliberal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-15-10 10:21 AM
Response to Reply #2
4. Pretty much where I stand. Well said.
Still pulling for him to come through. And I was happy to see him fight the deficit hawks and call for Congress to pass an emergency spending measure to save public service jobs and the help with COBRA for unemployed workers. I'm hoping it is the first sign of a turn away from the Reagan economic plans which got us here to begin with. I'm pulling for him. But my emphasis is on pulling for him to take some bolder measures for the workers and the poor. He's made a step now. I hope to see it continue.
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socialist_n_TN Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-15-10 10:35 AM
Response to Reply #4
6. Yeah that's MY emphasis too
Worker's rights have eroded to the point where they're in danger of becoming extinct if somebody (Obama) doesn't at least TRY to halt the bleeding. And we're ALL workers (or would be workers). And if the workers have a better deal, there's LESS of the poor to have to take care of.
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berni_mccoy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-15-10 11:25 AM
Response to Reply #2
7. "Nobody voted for W's 3rd term..."
I guess that's where I take issue with some people here. In no way is Obama's Presidency even close to another term by the shrub. To make that claim, one must ignore many great policies, legislation and initiatives instituted by President Obama.

I'm glad that you still support President Obama, but puzzled by the conclusion that you believe his Presidency "seems like in a LOT of areas" a Bush 3rd term.
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socialist_n_TN Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-15-10 10:45 PM
Response to Reply #7
41. Oh, I don't know
Just off the top of my head, Gitmo is still open, We're still getting troops killed in Iraq and Afghanistan, we still haven't caught Bin Laden, we're still drilling for oil 1+ mile below the surface of the Gulf of Mexico, there's still no tax increase on the wealthy, there's a commission to gut, excuse me PRIVATIZE, the Social Security program and Medicare, and the Patriot Act is still in effect. That's just off the top of my head.

Don't construe this as meaning I'm pining for W, but you did ask how Obama's administration is like Bush's. I still have hopes he'll do the right thing and turn (or be forced) left though.
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freddie mertz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-15-10 11:29 AM
Response to Reply #2
8. I would like to second (or third) these sentiments.
I want more than I can express for this administration to succeed.

But my definition of success may differ from some.

My interest in politics and issues of social and economic justice long precede the arrival of the current president on the scene.

Thus, my politics do not begin, or end, or even center on the person and career of Barack Obama.

I have seen Democratic presidencies rise and fall (and sometimes rise again).

It is nothing new for me to strongly disagree with a Dem president's policies.

That is what Democrats have always done, in my experience.

And that is that.




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Spheric Donating Member (512 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-15-10 04:57 PM
Response to Reply #2
30. +1 Says it pretty clearly.
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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-15-10 10:31 AM
Response to Original message
5. Well said.
Recommended, even though your friend sounds like a whack job!
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freddie mertz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-15-10 11:32 AM
Response to Original message
9. I think it is great that you are trying to be so fair here.
Edited on Tue Jun-15-10 11:43 AM by freddie mertz
I hope it is a sign of a more general move toward a new civility and tolerance for all reasonable points of view at DU.

We need more that of that around here.

Can I hold you to it?
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azmouse Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-15-10 11:46 AM
Response to Original message
10. Thank you Bernie.
Nicely said.
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mmonk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-15-10 12:04 PM
Response to Original message
11. Many of us have legitimate concerns.
That does not mean we hate Obama. Myself, I was an Obama delegate. This country has major issues and we will continue to voice opposition to any decisions that further that establishment status quo. Obama just happens to be the president at a time the Democrats have chosen to be more content with staus quo things as political strategy or self preservation.
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yowzayowzayowza Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-15-10 12:09 PM
Response to Original message
12. Whatever dirty maneuvers are req'd to extricate ourselves from...
Edited on Tue Jun-15-10 12:12 PM by yowzayowzayowza
this political swamp, we should try to remember that we're pretty much all navigating to the same stars.
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LWolf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-15-10 12:16 PM
Response to Original message
13. I appreciate your position, even though I can't agree with it.
I believe in all the same principles of the Party that you just listed. But I don't see the Party moving those principles forward, and it angers me.

As far as the current administration goes, I can honestly say that I am furious that the party couldn't see past the color of his skin to the policies he espoused that contradict those party principles. I'm more angry with fellow Democrats for electing someone who doesn't stand for those principles than I am with the administration itself. I understand that many were caught up in the euphoria of hope and change without reading the fine print; that many thought Obama would be more supportive of those principles than he is; and that some were aware of his policies and supported them more than they supported those principles, some were voting to break the color barrier, not for policies or principles, and some just wanted the party to "win," regardless of whether it was a "win" for the principles. But I don't vote for Party or personality. I vote for principles and issues.

Even though I never wanted Obama in the WH, specifically because I didn't, and don't, believe that he is a supporter of those principles, I shed tears on election night because we'd broken a color barrier, and I sent him a letter of congratulations and support for positive change. I just haven't seen the positive change I hoped for.

To be honest, my frustration and feelings of betrayal go farther than many. It's personal. I'm a teacher. I, and my profession, and my students, suffered under NCLB for the duration of the Bush administration. I wanted some positive change for public education when a Democrat was elected. Instead, I got Arne Duncan, union-busting, privatizing, and more stakes attached to standardized testing instead of fewer. And I get Democrats, and DUers, supporting those policies. I think my feelings of betrayal are legitimate. I'm 50 years old and have given my adult life to public service: to serving my students to the best of my ability. According to every measure, especially those most important, the feedback from parents and students themselves, I've served well. I love teaching. It's always been a calling for me. But, if I could afford to support myself and provide some kind of retirement doing something else, I'd walk away today rather than deal with the constant scapegoating, marginalizing, and downgrading of my profession and of public education. My education and skills just aren't marketable, even in a good economy, outside of education. So I'm stuck. I'm angry. I'm frustrated. I'm often in despair. And I'm not feeling any forgiveness or moderation in my opposition to policies that erode those principles: Protect the workers. Scrutinize the corporations. Take care of the poor and the sick. The Military is for defense. Equality for all people, men, women, religious, anti-religious, gay and straight. Expose government corruption and operate the government as intended by the Constitution: by the people for the people.

I'm sorry if you, and others that think this administration is on the right track, don't understand, or don't want to understand, what is behind the growing anger and frustration you hear from those of us unhappy with the Obama administration. It's not just the Obama administration; it's many elected Democrats in Congress, as well. It's the people who are electing Democrats that don't put those party principles first. I think it's damaging the Party; moving the party further and further from those principles you espoused. I think that those who want the Party to thrive ought to be listening, and working to make sure that all those disenfranchised groups aren't lost.

That's just my perspective.
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proud2BlibKansan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-15-10 06:40 PM
Response to Reply #13
36. Well said my friend
:hug:
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LWolf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-15-10 08:26 PM
Response to Reply #36
38. Thanks, Proud.
:hi:
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freddie mertz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-15-10 01:45 PM
Response to Original message
14. OK. After seeing your "performance" in that grave-dancing thread, I retract my earlier remarks.
You are not interested in civil discourse or diversity in any way.

An opportunity squandered.

Oh, and unrecced.
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berni_mccoy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-15-10 01:50 PM
Response to Reply #14
16. Oh dear, because I stated a fact, that grave dancing is not against the rules
you decide to finally unrec my thread? Funny thing is the rec count didn't really change when you kicked this thread back to the top, so I suspect you unrec'd it in the first place.
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freddie mertz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-15-10 02:01 PM
Response to Reply #16
20. No. I held off.
Edited on Tue Jun-15-10 02:21 PM by freddie mertz
I gave you the benefit of the doubt.

Then you defended that piece of shit of a thread.

It went down to 6.

(edited, because why not?)
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dionysus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-15-10 02:08 PM
Response to Reply #20
25. well, i canceled out your unrec freddie. have a nice day!
:hi:
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Nikki Stone1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-15-10 01:50 PM
Response to Original message
15. We don't have to be perfect; we're not running things
But Obama is running things and needs the guts to use his position to do the right thing. Letting BP clean up the scene of their own crime is NOT the right thing. He deserves criticism when is actions are wrong since he is at the helm and the lives of so many depend on him.
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berni_mccoy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-15-10 01:53 PM
Response to Reply #15
17. "Letting BP clean up the scene of their own crime is NOT the right thing."
That is far from what is actually happening. The government is deeply involved in the clean-up.

And by implication, are you saying the because "we're not running things" we don't need to be perfect, but Obama does?
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Nikki Stone1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-15-10 01:55 PM
Response to Reply #17
18. That's exactly what is happening. Haven't you been watching Rachel Maddow?
Watch her shows over the last two weeks.
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berni_mccoy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-15-10 02:01 PM
Response to Reply #18
21. Oh, I absolutely adore Rachel, as you'd know if you'd read my posts in the past here
And she's certainly not making the claim that you are.
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Nikki Stone1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-15-10 06:29 PM
Response to Reply #21
34. You don't love her as much as I do, Berni.
:)
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treestar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-15-10 01:59 PM
Response to Original message
19. K&R
Edited on Tue Jun-15-10 02:01 PM by treestar
:kick:

the main problem I see is that a Democratic President and Congress does not mean left wing everything overnight, that's due to the system - it's not meant for a new President to come in a be able to sweep the past away. To me it's just unreasonable to claim that President Obama's not a liberal.

Any right wingers I know would laugh their asses off completely to come on here and read some of the things here. They know what a conservative and what a Republican really is.

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socialist_n_TN Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-15-10 10:53 PM
Response to Reply #19
42. "They know what a conservative and Republican
really is." Well maybe, but they're the ones who've been calling Obama a "socialist" all along too. To paraphrase Lloyd Bentsen (sp?) I KNOW what a socialist is and it AIN'T Obama.
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Beetwasher Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-15-10 02:02 PM
Response to Original message
22. It's Not Just Labels And Boxes, It's The Deliberate Dissemination Of Lies And Smears
Edited on Tue Jun-15-10 02:03 PM by Beetwasher
I have absolutely no problem with criticism of the Administration or Democrats in general. But there comes a point when it's NOT criticism and merely baseless smears, lies and bashing (and lot's of disruption and trolling too).

Personally, my ideology is extremely liberal and progressive and I would put my real world bona fides against anyone on this board. But that means nothing when it actually comes to building coalitions and getting things done in the real world. I am a pragmatist because reality and actually ACCOMPLISHING progress demands pragmatism, despite my lofty ideals.
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dionysus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-15-10 02:07 PM
Response to Original message
23. great post Berni!
:thumbsup::thumbsup:
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SidDithers Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-15-10 02:08 PM
Response to Original message
24. Good post...nt
Sid
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Bobbie Jo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-15-10 02:34 PM
Response to Original message
26. Nicely done, berni
Good to see you here! :pals:
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saracat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-15-10 03:06 PM
Response to Original message
27.  I do not agree that anyone has inferred that anyone is not a Democrat
Edited on Tue Jun-15-10 03:48 PM by saracat
Some have,on both sides questioned what "kind" of Democrats some may be, and the direction the party is going.

As a Liberal Democrat , an FDR/Gloria Steinem Democrat, I have been subjected to abuse and stalking for having had the temerity to even question policy,I am disagreeing with your OP. "Liberals" who question have no place to hide. They are not protected. Those "attacks" that have risen to the top of the greatest page(which are often not attacks) that you refer to have been factual. Some just do not like particular facts.

Inherent in this OP is that somehow there is a special category of Obama supporting Democrat who is beyond reproach and whose back stories and principles have more credibility and value. You state that members who defend the HCR are more likely to have sick children, citing your own situation. We ALL have our stories and reasons why we support or reject the HCR. Yet some call those who express our reasons "selfish" You refer to the veterans of your family as though they are different than the veterans of other families. Most of us have veterans in our families. Mine go back to the Revolutionary War. No one has a corner on the market of patriotism

This OP does far more to separate than unite us. We are ALL Democrats. We ALL ( for the most part) voted for the President. None of us deserve to be marginalized for either approving or disapproving of the President, the Democrats or any actions they may take. No one view is superior.We have the right to disagree. I feel we should not disrespect.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-15-10 04:17 PM
Response to Reply #27
28. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-15-10 04:56 PM
Response to Reply #27
29. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
saracat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-15-10 06:37 PM
Response to Reply #29
35.  All Democrats support the President. Most of us voted for him.
What I am saying is that here are different kinds of Democrats and some define themselves as a special category of Obama supporting Dems. Some believe their support is better, purer, more important etc.than those Democrats who believe they can be critical of the President.

I have endeavored to post be views with respect but often as in your response, I am disrespected.I do not think that is right. I do not understand why some cannot agree to disagree.
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Greyhound Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-16-10 12:30 PM
Response to Reply #27
43. "This OP does far more to separate than unite us."
Which is, I believe, one of its purposes. That and to crow about "Teh Power".

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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-15-10 05:03 PM
Response to Original message
31. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
ismnotwasm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-15-10 05:14 PM
Response to Original message
32. Thank you
Nicely done. What I can't stand, and can't get over can't standing, are Republicans.


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Prism Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-15-10 05:20 PM
Response to Original message
33. My experiences are similar, and yet you and I are in opposition about this President
Intraparty opposition, to be certain.

Here is my family and life as brief as I can make it. My father and brother are Teamster members. My father served two tours in Vietnam. My mother was an original feminist in the 50s and 60s. She served in the army for a time, before leaving to buy her own house, own her own business, and travel the world as a single, empowered woman. She told me of the abortion she had in the 50s and what that experience was like in the America of that time. When my father was injured at a non-union job in the early 80s and couldn't work, my parents were forced onto welfare. I grew up straddling the line between poor and working class, hand-me downs, being taken to toys for tots for the one Christmas present. My parents were bankrupted five or so years ago when my father needed heart surgery. My parents had good insurance. My mother is a heart attack and breast cancer survivor. My father recently had to take out a massive loan in order to obtain his pension from a company that is collapsing. I am a self-employed because I could not find work for the past year. I am white gay man with a minority partner in a country that doesn't recognize our equality.

I like to feel that every aspect of my life and background touches upon the great Democratic issues of our day.

I do not feel President Obama is a great Democrat. He is a Democrat. He does wear the label. But he does not vigorously pursue the ideals of our party. He has given Wall Street too much power while the workers continue to have too little. He has moved slowly, clumsily, and sometimes oppositely of the LGBT community. He compromised women's rights for a health insurance bill that will not repair what forced people like my parents into bankruptcy. He has continued to wage wars that tear some of our brightest young men and women to shreds while devastating the civilians of those countries. He perpetuates the American empire and supports the global economic exploitation that has eroded the power and numbers of the American worker.

I do not focus on these things because he is Barack Obama. I focus on them because he is our Democratic President and a Democratic president must have some bare minimum standards in order to earn Democratic support. I do not feel, at this moment, the President is meeting even the bare minimum standards. He has done some good things, and when he does, I say so. If I had to rank his best accomplishment to date, I think it would be Justice Sotomayor.

I supported this President in the primaries. I worked for him, canvassed, phone banked, and donated. I spoke out in favor of him, right here on DU, sometimes even in opposition to the majority of LGBT voices on issues like Warren and McClurkin. His race has zero to do with how I feel towards him.

He will be judged on his acts. He is being judged on his act. It is with his acts, or lack of them, that I have picked my quarrels.

I don't want a Democratic President. I want a democratic president, the president of the ideals and priorities of our party and common heritage. I don't want a Democrat of Power. I want a Democrat of the People.

The former has given way to the latter, and we continue our rightward shift in this country on account of it. I will criticize anyone who apologizes for that in the name of the Democrats of Power. They do not deserve my loyalty. Democrats of the People do, and right now, those Democrats are being shouted down because power is at stake. Power is only important if those holding it will use it to help the least of among us, not the most privileged.

Right now, the privileged are holding long sway over the average citizen, and the President has found too common cause with the people we elected him to put in check.
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AnArmyVeteran Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-15-10 08:21 PM
Response to Original message
37. Hi Berni, my filmmaking professor told me about how naming restricts further thought...
'Naming' anything fills one's mind with preconceived notions and puts up mental walls preventing a person from searching beyond the name. I just wrote my film professor a week ago about many different stories he shared in class and the phenomenon of 'naming' was one of them. It's amazing how you talked about it in your OP. But my film professor said the story was a very old one. I love Richard Bach and his books. They are so beautiful and speak to your heart and spirit.

By the way, I graduated with a masters in filmmaking in 1987 so obviously it's been awhile since I talked with my film professor so that makes your post all that much more remarkable. Thanks again...

Great post!!!
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CBR Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-15-10 08:29 PM
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39. Great post! Understanding everyone's personal background and experiences
is an important aspect of dialogue.
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apocalypsehow Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-15-10 10:03 PM
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40. K & R. n/t.
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