Unbelievable story: Boy, 11, Killed by Friend's Father (Shot in the Back as he ran down the street)

[Catherine Vincent]

Police: Boy, 11, Killed By Friend's Father

POSTED: 6:47 am CDT May 14, 2007
UPDATED: 12:00 pm CDT May 14, 2007


HOUSTON -- A 58-year-old man is charged with murder in connection
with an 11-year-old boy's shooting death, KPRC Local 2 reported.

Houston police said Jonathan Dixon and several other juveniles were
visiting Raymond Shaw's 13-year-old son at a home on Iron Liege Court
near Fashion Hill Street at about 5:15 p.m. Sunday

Shaw got upset and chased Jonathan and the other juveniles out of
his home, police said. Shaw told investigators that Jonathan pushed
him and cursed at him before he left.

Investigators said Shaw fired a sawed-off shotgun once at Jonathan
as he ran down the street. Jonathan was fatally shot in the back
and head, police said. He collapsed and died in a yard a few houses
down from Shaw's. Several neighbors grabbed the gun away from Shaw,
detectives said.

more....http://www.click2houston.com/news/13312870/detail.html

[RedCappedBandit]

1. If the kids had guns, this wouldn't have happened.

[Ghost in the Machine]

2. eh, stop with the assinine bullshit already, huh?

:eyes:

[Junkdrawer]

4. After the response to VT, I'm not so sure it's an asinine comment. n/t

[Ghost in the Machine]

16. Yes, it's an assinine comment. Trust me.

see my response below...

[proud2BlibKansan]

8. I don't think that is assinine

not in the least.

[Ghost in the Machine]

14. you don't think it's assinine to suggest or condone an 11 year old having a gun

could have prevented this?

[iverglas]

24. what,

11-year-olds don't have an inherent and inalienable right to defend themselves??

Fie on you. Of course they do.

And we all know that the single most effective "tool" for that job is a firearm. And that prohibiting people from festooning themselves with firearms in public is a violation of their right to life.

So I can't see any way around it. Allow 11-year-olds to tote pistols around in their pockets, or admit that you just don't think 11-year-olds' lives are worth a pinch of poop.

Surely people wouldn't go pointing shotguns at 11-year-olds if they knew that 11-year-olds might have pistols in their pants. Problem solved.

[zanne]

69. May I suggest counseling?

After a certain point, when you no longer care who gets hurt because you have an agenda, you just need help.

[iverglas]

74. you're talking to *me*?

Do I have to attach a maple leaf to all my posts, so that they can be washed down with a glass of water if they're just too dry for local consumption?

My agenda is to reduce death and harm caused with firearms. Pointing out the irrationality and duplicity of those pushing the "gun rights" agenda is often effective in that end.

[aikoaiko]

90. you forgot the sarcasm tag.

The DUers who know you understood your post .... ;)

[semillama]

98. Well, some of the ones who don't , even got it immediately.

Yes, people, you don't need to look for the sarcasm smiley to be able to detect dry and black humor.

[zanne]

96. I didn't notice your username, iverglas.

There are people out there who would actually defend giving an 11 year-old a gun, and before you pointed out who you were, I thought you were one of them!

[iverglas]

97. I figured!

It really can be hard to tell who's serious, and the fact that anybody could think my post was serious speaks volumes all by itself. ;)

Anyhow, I'm still waiting for one of them to explain to me why children and convicted criminals and crazy people should be denied the right to defend themselves ...

[proud2BlibKansan]

99. Have you not been following the threads here

since the VT shooting?

This is not the first time someone has suggested arming kids.

[Ghost in the Machine]

102. I've seen them, believe me. I just couldn't let it go by without comment this time

ANYONE who would condone arming children is assinine. Period. Now I see the benefit of the :sarcasm: tag, as it's not always readily apparent since you don't really know the other poster.

[trumad]

12. assinine?

Yours or his?

[Ghost in the Machine]

13. maybe yours?

How can anyone spout or condone such an assinine statement? Yeah, I read some of the responses to the VT tragedy, and as a gun owner, I can't say that I agree with them. Surely a gun in the right hands might have helped stop the killings sooner, but we will never know one way or the other on that, will we? But for someone to state that if an 11 year old child had a gun, this wouldn't have happened, is completely and utterly assinine. Give me a break.

[devilgrrl]

15. People will stop saying such things when gun nuts start doing the same.

Gun nuts are the ones that insist that everyone be armed to the teeth and state that violent incidents wouldn't take place if others were packing heat. Tell them to shut up first.

[Ghost in the Machine]

19. agreed, the gun nuts need to STFU and not spout this nonsense either

Owning a gun is HUGE responsibility and some people just simply shouldn't have them. I've grown up around guns, shooting since I was 5 years old. I've never shot anything or anyone "accidently". I'm against an outright ban on guns, but I do favor gun control and restrictions on assault weapons. The extreme fringe on both ends of the spectrum need to wise up a little, IMHO.

[iverglas]

25. what extreme fringe? where are they??

I'm against an outright ban on guns

That would make you different from ... whom?

[Ghost in the Machine]

28. How nice of you to cherry pick comments. Why didn't you post my WHOLE comment?

"I'm against an outright ban on guns, but I do favor gun control and restrictions on assault weapons."

Where's the fringe? Try the gun grabbers, who would ban ALL guns, and the gun nuts, who think they should have the right to hunt deer or go weekend target shooting with an AK47 or bazooka.

Get real, would you? Have YOU ever owned a gun? What's your stance or opinion? (like I can't tell already)

[iverglas]

30. and I ask again

Try the gun grabbers, who would ban ALL guns

Who are these people, and where can I find them?

Your mere assertion that there ARE two extreme fringes, as identified by you, doesn't mean that they exist.

[karlrschneider]

35. Several DUers have proposed exactly that.

A total ban.

[iverglas]

36. yeah

Sure.

And you took their unpremeditated outbursts very, very seriously. I know.

Certainly the "several" of them are worthy of constant comment. Several people on a site of thousands do not a straw person make. Noooooo.

[karlrschneider]

57. You asked

Try the gun grabbers, who would ban ALL guns
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Who are these people, and where can I find them?"

I told you where to find them. That you are displeased with factual evidence is a problem only you can deal with.
If ignorance is bliss...etc.
:eyes:

[Ghost in the Machine]

40. I'm not here to do your research for you. Look it up.

You can't even provide me with proof of your own assertations that GUNS kill people.

[Catherine Vincent]

42. How about "Guns are created to Kill and Maim" n/t

[iverglas]

47. you need to stop telling falsehoods

You can't even provide me with proof of your own assertations that GUNS kill people.

I have already pointed out to you that I never made that assertion, and here you are repeating the claim that I have, knowing for sure that it was false, even if it was an inadvertent falsehood the first time you made it.

Your statement therefore makes as much sense as saying that I can't provide you with proof that orange is false.

You need to either provide substantiation of your claim that I have made this assertion, or withdraw your claim and apologize.


On the whole silly business of whether guns kill people or not, you probably need to spend more time in the gun dungeon. They won't put up with these kinds of semantical shenanigans down there.

People don't kill people. Loss of blood and swelling of the brain and peritonitis and those sorts of things kill people.

[Ghost in the Machine]

52. see post #49. In the meantime, don't you EVER tell me where I need to spend

my time here on DU. Obviously you know much more about the "gun dungeon" than I do, so why don't you take your own suggestions? That's probably where you stay anyways.

[Sapere aude]

45. Some one would die even if the kid was armed. The man or the kid.

Of course the kid was shot in the back. Maybe the kid instead of shoving the man should have shot him before the man could get his gun.

All sounds pretty ridiculous doesn't it.

[donheld]

92. Ghost you may need to have your sarcasm detector adjusted

I saw the sarcasm right away.

[Jamastiene]

94. I did too.

It's always the first thing some people say without even thinking. So, I saw the sarcasm in the post right off. :shrug:

[Ghost in the Machine]

101. Maybe I jumped the gun (no pun intended) and didn't see the sarcasm

But honestly, some people actually do think that way...

As a lifelong gun owner, I would never condone giving a child a gun and turning him loose with it, without adult supervision...

[Jamastiene]

93. Eleven year olds routinely carry guns where I live

and rarely get shot at by angry neighbors. It's not a completely and utterly asinine suggestion in all cases. Then again, they carry those guns on hunting trips and to firing ranges. In any case, I wonder why the man shot the kid. If he knew the first thing about guns and he was just trying to scare the kid, he shouldn't have aimed AT the kid. What a stupid irresponsible gun owner to do such a thing.

[CatWoman]

44. see why I love you so much?

:rofl:

:loveya:

[mudesi]

27. Don't the gun rights people use that exact "argument" ad nauseam? (nm)

[Ghost in the Machine]

43. only the loonies on the extreme fringe do. Not all gun owners and gun rights

activists feel this way. I own guns, yet favor gun control, registration and restrictions. We're not ALL frothy mouthed knuckle draggers that want to send our kids to school with guns.

I live way out in the country, in the woods on 12.5 acres, and my 13 year old son isn't even allowed to take his BB Gun out without my knowledge or supervision.

[iverglas]

48. tsk, you mustn't say such things about fellow DUers

only the loonies on the extreme fringe do.

You really don't visit the gun dungeon often, eh?

Or even see its denizens when they emerge into the light to yammer about guns in GD and the like?

Such an experience you're missing.

If you define people who argue that unrestricted concealed carrying of firearms would solve the problem of mass shootings in public places and schools as "the extreme fringe", then it's sure a whoooole lot bigger than the 3 people you might be able to dig up at DU who have at some time said that all firearms should be banned.

[The Inquisitive]

77. to be fair

that was kind of funny.

[Junkdrawer]

3. An armed society is.... a society with lots and lots of guns..../t

[Javaman]

10. you forgot the sarcasm smile. nt

[WilliamPitt]

22. LOL

Classic.

:toast:

[ComerPerro]

54. LMFAO

[donco6]

59. We've seen this argument here on DU.

Many times.

[RedCappedBandit]

70. Oh come on

As if i'm the only one here who posted something that has been said already. Do you have an opinion as to the meaning behind the post, rather?

[donco6]

72. Just sayin'

I've seen it. Many times.

[benEzra]

76. If the gun was banned, it wouldn't have happened...oh, wait...it WAS banned...

Investigators said Shaw fired a sawed-off shotgun once at Jonathan
as he ran down the street.

Possession of a short-barreled shotgun is a 10-year Federal felony outside of police/military, unless you obtain Federal authorization (BATFE Form 4); that's been the law for 73 years. Something tells me this gun was NOT legally possessed...

[iverglas]

78. if only murder were illegal, just imagine!!!

Oh wait.

[aikoaiko]

91. I think your post is lost among the anti-gun crowd rolling around in the blood of this victim....

What gun control law would have prevented this from happening?

Are all these anti-gunheads going on record as to wanting to ban and confiscate full length shotguns so that illegal sawed off shotguns are more difficult to make or obtain? I doubt it.

[jollyreaper2112]

79. damn straight!

And if we defended the right to arm bears, they wouldn't get shot, either!

[THUNDER HANDS]

5. i gotta find a company that makes bullet proof vests

and invest in it. I have a feeling they'll be the hot industry in a few years.

[ComerPerro]

56. amen to that

[Catherine Vincent]

6. Fatal shooting linked to laundry dispute...

http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/front/4800635.html

[Javaman]

11. he didn't think the gun was loaded when he pulled the trigger yet...

he was reloading when the neighbors disarmed him.

so many things wrong here, I can't even begin to count them.

[iverglas]

29. what a tale of woe

Seriously. The boy's mother was in prison and he and three siblings were in their grandmother's care. The man who shot him had recently lost his wife and was unable to speak because of a throat cancer operation and the family's inability to afford the device he needed to assist speech.

People, in particular African-American people in the US, abandoned to their own devices, as it were. Children and adults, and generations.

Another recent story shared characteristics: a child shot dead as he participated in an attempted armed burglary was a homeless teen whose mother had spent much of his childhood in prison and was involved in drug use and prostitution while he lived in an abandoned building:
http://www.cleveland.com/news/plaindealer/index.ssf?/base/news/1177835554169760.xml&coll=2


So many common threads ... one of which is the possession of firearms by people who should not have them.

[Sanctified]

7. Not to state the obvious but the father was a criminal before the shooting.

And that shotgun was illegal.

[proud2BlibKansan]

9. And the kid is still dead

[HCE SuiGeneris]

17. and guns DO kill peolpe

[Ghost in the Machine]

21. Wrong! PEOPLE with guns kill people.

I've NEVER seen a gun jump out of a closet, dresser drawer, glove box or off of a rack or shelf and kill someone on it's own accord.

If you have video or a report showing otherwise, please post it.

Thanks

[iverglas]

26. and I've never seen

a person with a gun jump on somebody and stomp him/her to death. So I'm not sure about this "PEOPLE with guns kill people" thang. Maybe people with guns breathe germs all over other people and the other people die of pneumonia?

Of course, if you have video or a report showing otherwise, please post it.

Meanwhile, I'll offer an appropriate image I like myself.

[Ghost in the Machine]

34. Have you ever seen or been involved in a bar room brawl, streetfight or gang fight?

How do you KNOW one of the participants wasn't packing, but felt no need to pull a gun? I was a bouncer in a biker bar for many years, I've got two black belts, and I never had the need to pull a weapon on someone I was in a fight with, because I KNEW I could kick their ass. So that makes your one point moot. Care to go for more?

I'm still waiting for your proof of your assertation that GUNS kill people. GUNS don't kill people, IDIOTS with guns kill people.

[iverglas]

37. ask me whether I didn't predict that noise

I've got two black belts, and I never had the need to pull a weapon on someone I was in a fight with, because I KNEW I could kick their ass. So that makes your one point moot.

Really?? You forgot to mention how many of them you killed. Or intended to kill.

I'm still waiting for your proof of your assertation that GUNS kill people.

You'll probably have to wait a very long time, and I'll just hope you aren't holding your breath. Given as how I didn't make that assertion and all.

And now I shall explain to you how hurricanes don't kill people, and avalanches don't kill people, and dogs don't kill people. Flying debris and falling snow and loss of blood kill people.

This may take a long time, there being so many myths of this sort to debunk, so I hope you're sitting comfortably.

[Ghost in the Machine]

49. Ok, I'll give you one point. I was wrong....

it wasn't you who posted that GUNS kill people. I didn't look at the names right. You responded to something I posted to someone else, my mistake.

As for this statement: "And now I shall explain to you how hurricanes don't kill people, and avalanches don't kill people, and dogs don't kill people. Flying debris and falling snow and loss of blood kill people."

You're starting to get it! Good work, keep it up. :rofl: We can run in circles all day if you want because I'm bored and this is fun.

You want to argue semantics? Your words are 100% true. How many people are killed by hurricanes that make landfall? How about by tornadoes that never come close to homes or towns? There's avalanches on snow covered mountains all the time that don't kill people. We had a rock slide near my house a couple of months ago that didn't kill anyone, though it could have if someone had been driving down the road and was in that exact spot at that exact moment.

Last summer, on my way back from the campground during a heavy storm, a tree fell across the road right in front of me. I just happened to look up and see it starting to fall and was able to slow down. Had I been going 3 mph faster and not paying attention, it would have fallen on my truck, possibly killing me AND my children. Should we ban trees and thunder storms?

[iverglas]

51. yeah

Hurricanes don't kill people.
Avalanches don't kill people.
Falling trees don't kill people.
Guns don't kill people.

And people will say really dumb things when they think nobody's looking.

[Ghost in the Machine]

53. "And people will say really dumb things when they think nobody's looking."

as is obvious by your posts...

Have a nice day, I'm done with you. You provide no mental stimulation, except for your own mental masturbation. If you can't provide something constructive to a conversation or debate, it might be wise for you to just keep out of it.

[Scout]

80. if you can't run with the big dogs, then stay on the porch n/t

[Ghost in the Machine]

81. Gee, I've *never* heard that cliche' before. Do you have anything intelligent

to add to the debate or discussion, or did a shiny object fly by that just drew your attention here?

[Toots]

66. Does a death certificate say cause of death>gunshot wound> or does it say person

An official government document classifies cause of death as gunshot. I would say that pretty much verifies that guns do kill. When you show me an official government document that lists cause of death as person or people then maybe you have an argument

[Ghost in the Machine]

67. what if the death certificate say "strangulation"? Did a rope or phone cord

or lamp cord strangle the deceased? No... a person strangled them to death.

You want to go with a blunt object? A PERSON used that object. Let's BAN hammers, lamps and vases!!!

Totally defenseless argument there, Toots, but nice try anyways.

Thank you for playing....

[iverglas]

75. that makes a "toots" and a "sweetie" from the gun guys here

Aren't they just the coolest dudes?

Let's BAN hammers, lamps and vases!!!

Don't you find that all the straw kinda impedes our breathing after a while?

Awk! Ban straw!

[Ghost in the Machine]

82. If you ever bothered reading, maybe you'd know I was responding to

someone whose username is TooTs... but you just want to try to keep an argument going.

What's your agenda?

"Let's BAN hammers, lamps and vases!!!" It's apparent that sarcasm is lost on you also, unless accompanied by a :sarcasm: emoticon.

You're like a broken screwdriver in the bottom junk drawer.... not much use for this purpose, but a tool, nonetheless

[iverglas]

85. sarcasm

needs to have a point. Or it's just dull.

Your saying "Let's BAN hammers, lamps and vases!!!" would be sarcastic if some point were being made. Since it would only have a point if someone were proposing banning something, there is no point being made. Just you, flinging straw around, lots and lots of straw, more and more straw, same old straw.

[Scout]

86. I thought you told iverglas you were "done with you"

back about post 53

what brings you back?

[Ghost in the Machine]

87. and I thought I asked you to have something intelligent to add to the

conversation/debate... what brings you back?

[Scout]

88. "and I thought I asked you..."

pompous much?

eta: :rofl:

[Ghost in the Machine]

103. I see you *still* have nothing intelligent to add to the discussion/debate

do you have some sort of agenda too? Please spell it out for all of us so we know in the future. Otherwise you can just join the other broken screwdriver in the junk drawer of useless tools.

"Pompus much?" ------>> Damned right I am, does that offend you? You don't have to answer because I really don't care if it does or not. Live with it, or provide something useful and/or intelligent.

Stupid much??

[CBGLuthier]

31. Actually my wife's step brother died

because the shotgun in his truck fell and discharged.

Of course, it was his fault for not storing it properly but still it does prove that despite your claims it does indeed happen.

[Ghost in the Machine]

38. Ok, I can see that happening. Why was he carrying a loaded shotgun in a truck?

How old was your wife when this happened?

We told my uncle's young kids that his gun "fell and went off", when in fact he had committed suicide, just to save them from the grief and stigma that suicide brings in our society. Maybe we were wrong for telling them that, but I feel it made their lives easier than wondering why their father killed himself.

[RedCappedBandit]

71. Well, heres the flip side of the coin

I'm sure there are many cases where a person has committed murder using a gun, whereas if there was no gun the murder would have not occurred. Do you disagree?

[Ghost in the Machine]

89. No, I can't disagree with that the way you stated it. I could back you up on that 100%

"in many cases". Had you said *all* cases, then I would disagree with that.

[karlrschneider]

18. Some discrepancy in the stories. In this one

http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/front/4800635.html

they don't say it was sawed-off. $50K seems pretty low for bond on a murder charge...

Odd story.

[Ghost in the Machine]

23. Sawed off shotguns aren't illegal if they are over 21 inches total length

with at least an 18 inch barrel.

[benEzra]

95. 26", I think (NFA)

I've never heard an 18" barreled shotgun called a sawed-off, though.

[Ghost in the Machine]

100. it varies from state to state...

Pennsylvania: It is illegal to sell or possess a machine gun, a sawed-off shotgun with a barrel less than 18 inches, or a firearm made or adapted for concealment or silent discharge, except when in compliance with the National Firearms Act.

Kansas: It is a criminal use of a weapon to knowingly sell, manufacture, purchase, possess, or carry a shotgun with a barrel less than 18 inches in length or any other firearm designed to discharge or capable of discharging automatically more than once by a single function of the trigger. This prohibition does not apply to certain persons.

***Disclaimer*** I cherrypicked the 2 entries from this page that actually mentioned length:

http://www.statemaster.com/graph/gov_gun_law_pro_fir-government-gun-laws-prohibited-firearms

[benEzra]

105. Found it - 18" barrel and 26" OAL are the Federal minimums...

which states can exceed, but not undercut. You have to possess a Form 4 to possess a shotgun shorter than 26", regardless of state law, and possession without a Form 4 is a 10-year Federal felony.

Found it in the National Firearms Act FAQ:

http://www.titleii.com/BardwellOLD/nfa_faq.txt

What are NFA Weapons?

There are two kinds of firearms under U.S. (federal) law, title
1 firearms and title 2. Title 1 firearms are long guns (rifles and
shotguns), handguns, silencer, and firearm frames or receivers.
Most NFA weapons are also title 1 firearms. Title 2 weapons are
NFA weapons. Title 2 of the 1968 Gun Control Act is the National
Firearms Act (codified at 26 U.S.C. sec. 5801 et seq.), hence NFA.
Title 1 is generally called the Gun Control Act, (18 U.S.C. sec.
921 et seq.). NFA weapons are also sometimes called class 3
weapons, because a class 3 SOT (see below) is needed to deal in NFA
weapons.

These weapons may also be further regulated by states or
localities, and while these weapons can be legally owned under
federal law, some states and localities further regulate ownership
or prohibit it (see below). The NFA Branch of ATF administers the
taxation of the guns, and the registration of them in the National
Firearms Registration and Transfer Record.

NFA weapons are: machine guns, sound suppressors (a.k.a.
silencers), short barreled shotguns, short barreled rifles,
destructive devices and "any other weapons". Exactly what these
weapons are is defined in the law, as well as in court cases
interpreting the law. Withut going into to much detail, these are
what the categories encompass:

A machine gun is any gun that can fire more than one shot with
a single pull of the trigger, or a receiver of a machine gun, or a
combination of parts for assembling a machine gun, or a part or set
of parts for converting a gun into a machine gun.

A silencer is any device for muffling the gunshot of a portable
firearm, or any part or parts exclusively designed or intended for
such a device (see discussion below).

A short barreled shotgun is any shotgun (which is defined as a
shoulder fired, smooth bore firearm) with a barrel of less than 18"
or an overall length of less than 26", or any weapon made from a
shotgun falling into the same length parameters.

A short barreled rifle is a rifle (which is defined as a shoulder
fired, rifled bore firearm) with a barrel length of less than 16",
or an overall length of less than 26", or any weapon made from a
rifle falling into the same length parameters (like a pistol made
from a rifle). In measuring barrel length you do it from the
closed breech to the muzzle, see 27 CFR sec. 179.11. To measure
overall length do so along, "the distance between the extreme ends
of the weapon measured along a line parallel to the center line of
the bore." 27 CFR sec. 179.11. On a folding stock weapon you
measure with the stock extended, provided the stock is not readily
detachable, and the weapon is meant to be fired from the shoulder.

A destructive device (DD) can be two basic categories of things.
It can be an explosive, incendiary or poison gas weapon, like a
bomb or grenade. It can also be a firearm with a bore over 1/2",
with exceptions for sporting shotguns, among other things (see
discussion below). I call the second category large bore
destructive devices. As a general rule only this second category
is commercially available.

Any other weapons (AOW's) are a number of things; smooth bore
pistols, any pistol with more than one grip, (but see below) gadget
type guns (cane gun, pen gun) and shoulder fired weapons with both
rifled and smooth bore barrels between 12" and 18", that must be
manually reloaded (see discussion below).

These definitions are simplified, to see if a specific gun is a
title 1 or 2 firearm one needs to refer to the specific definition
under the statute(s), and possibly consult with the Technology
Branch of ATF. There is also case law on the issue of whether a
specific item falls into one of these categories. In addition, as
a general rule, a parts kit, i.e. all of the parts to assemble an
NFA firearm, whether a parts kit is specifically included in the
statute or not, is usually considered to be the same as the
assembled firearm.

[Missy Vixen]

20. Wow, the shooter showed HIM, didn't he?

I wonder to myself how many more people have to die unnecessarily before those who continue spouting the RW/NRA talking points get it -- guns are not a solution, and should not be in the hands of those who either are mentally ill or possess an explosive and uncontrollable temper. The fact the shooter was reloading when the child had already collapsed on someone else's lawn due to his injuries tells me that this person had no control over himself or his actions.

Julie

[karlrschneider]

33. Who has suggested that mentally ill people should be allowed to have guns?

Did you dream that?

[Missy Vixen]

41. Any type of restriction is against the Second Amendment

I've read it over and over and over from those who have insisted so for the past oh, month or so on these threads.

>Did you dream that?<

Precious.

Julie

[karlrschneider]

60. Okay, I will donate $10 to DU for every link you can produce from someone here

saying that. Take your time.

[Missy Vixen]

64. No, thanks

I'm not doing your research.

Julie

[karlrschneider]

65. You made the claim, sweetie, it ain't MY research.

Try 1-800-ABCDEFG

[iverglas]

46. who has invented a way to prevent mentally ill people from acquiring guns?

Did you dream *that*? Or were you just trying a little diversionary grooming by pretending that the poster you were addressing had erected a straw person, when your pretence was itself the straw?

Nobody has ever invented ways of preventing people from doing most things. But there surely are ways of reducing the risk of a whole lot of things happening. But hey, you wouldn't want to acknowledge that there are many proposals that could be made to that effect, and that some of them can in fact be shown to have that effect.

[Name removed]

61. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[iverglas]

62. "further discussion"?

I must have missed the previous.

Dang, "a genderless Canuck". Really know how to hurt a ... er ... person, don't you?

[Ghost in the Machine]

68. !!!

:spray:

[depakid]

32. Nothing that comes out of Texas surprises me

Actually, what surprises me is that there aren't even more of these incidents reported.

[Catherine Vincent]

39. Hey! Don't go ragging on Texas.

Tragedy happens in every state.

[jilln]

50. How did he shoot once and hit him in both the head AND back?

[Ghost in the Machine]

55. It was a shotgun. Shotgun shells hold multiple projectiles.

A .00 (double ought) buckshot load hold 8 to 13 pellets in the shell, each approximately the size of a .22 caliber bullet. Bird shot can hold several hundred tiny pellets.

[benEzra]

73. Another way to put it...

is that a single shell of 000 buckshot is equivalent to a long burst from a Title 2/Class III restricted 9mm submachinegun, except that the shotgun fires all the 9mm projectiles simultaneously.

At close range, shotguns are the most lethal of all firearms.

[Blue_Tires]

58. this is sad....

in one blink of a hotheaded moment, several lives are irrepably altered...and this was so preventable, too...

[sakabatou]

63. JFC

:cry:

[Catherine Vincent]

83. Video update....

http://www.click2houston.com/video/13318012/index.html

Poor kid. :-(

[Withywindle]

84. Fucking horrifying...

:cry:

Some of this thread is disturbing too.

The problem is mental illness and lack of treatment, and just plain fucking anger management problems to the Nth degree. What kind of spiritually deficient waste of skin SHOOTS A CHILD IN THE BACK over an argument?

If every adult in a caretaking position over children did that every time he or she felt "disrespected" none of us would have survived childhood or the species would have died out thousands of years ago.

[Xithras]

104. There's a lot more to the story.

Other versions of this story reveal that the shooter was a 58 year old disabled cancer patient who can't speak because of the tumor in his throat. Supposedly his 13 year old son and the other kids in the house are in a youth street gang, and the man has been repeatedly beaten, abused, and disrespected by these kids since his wife died a short time ago. His health was too poor to do much about it, so these kids took over the house and turned it into their own personal hangout. The father was seen as a joke, and was beaten by not only his own kid, but the other kids that hung out there.

While I feel for the dead 11 year old, it really sounds like this is a case of a sick, abused old man who finally just snapped and lashed out. http://abclocal.go.com/ktrk/story?section=local&id=5301764

[Zookeeper]

106. That certainly does present a different perspective....

it's too bad the police or juvenile authorities weren't involved before it reached that crisis point.

[Ghost in the Machine]

107. Let's see what all the people on here have to say that were advocating

that "if the kid had a gun, this wouldn't have happened" :eyes:

if the kid had a gun, the old man woulda probably been dead by now..