Just ran out for a cigar, interesting conversation with owner of the store

[The Straight Story]

The guy owns a small tobacco shop off of Livingston Avenue. I was hoping he had some King Edwards or a pipe, he didn't but he had a pretty good selection of Garcia Vegas and Dutch Masters.

I asked him how that whole Schip thing was working out.

"Hell, I voted for Obama. We needed a change. But, well how much do you make? Do you make 250,000 a year?"

"Nope, not even close" I replied.

"None of my customers do, but they are now paying taxes way higher than they ever did before. Business is down, what used to be $18.00 for a pound of smoke is now almost $70. You think people making 250k care? They are paying less taxes now than they did before - and I am about near the end of my rope with my shop."

He ranted on and on about how his little shop was taking a hit, which I suppose to some here is a good thing, but in the end he swore he would not be voting for a democrat this year. I had a smoke while I talked to him, you can do that in smoke shops here. He gave me a free diet mt dew and a book of matches. "That bush was a dumbass, sure as hell he was a cheatin' SOB, he didn't even have a clue about 9/11" Not sure what he meant by all that, but I took it he did not like bush too much.

Given all of that, he won't vote for a democrat next election - because they raised taxes on his customers - and drove them away. He might well be a single issue voter, but he is a voter none the less. He didn't see where bush impacted him directly - but he has seen where Obama has. He has bought into the whole meme about dems "tax and spend".

When you raise the taxes of something poor people buy by an insane amount, do you really expect them to rush out and vote for you?

[chrisa]

1. You're right.

Raise taxes on the rich instead. :thumbsup:

[Codeine]

2. They didn't raise taxes on people, they raised it on a product.

People are free not to buy said product and avoid the applicable tax.

[SidDithers]

5. +1...nt

Sid

[JHB]

16. They raised it on a politically expedient target. n/t

[Taitertots]

30. That is correct, but they are drug addicts

So they would much rather pay the tax while whining about the democrats.

[Xenotime]

101. Exactly. I'm calling BS on this one.

[jmowreader]

133. It appears they are NOT buying said product

That's great but he's in the business of selling said product, and he seems to be taking a major hit.

This is the thing: Poor people will stop buying other things to purchase cigarettes. I know a couple who used to spend $85 per pay period at the supermarket, because that's all the money they had. One member of the couple was a pack-a-day Marlboro smoker. Subtract the $60 for one carton plus four loose packs from the $85 and tell me how well they were eating.

[Ozymanithrax]

3. So childrens health isn't worth paying more for tobaco.

Too bad, so sad.

I vote for Children's health.

[ZombieHorde]

7. Tax the rich, not the poor. nt

[Codeine]

10. They aren't taxing "the poor."

I'm poor as shit, and mine were not raised. They are taxing tobacco. Nobody has to buy that, regardless of economic status.

[ZombieHorde]

14. A higher percentage of poor people are regular smokers than rich people.

We are pissing off the poor and loosing votes. Democrats don't win by pissing off the poor.

[Codeine]

74. If cigarettes are their deciding issue when it's time to vote

then they are fucking idiots anyway.

[robdogbucky]

84. They still vote n/t

[Cosmocat]

138. No, they don't ...

Did social work for 15 years with the type of folks everyone is talking about here - the twits who spend their last dollars on cigerettes, and I can tell you for a fact, they don't vote ... They don't have the basic responsibility to live their lives right every other day, they aren't dragging their sorry butts to vote twice a year ...

[Codeine]

139. This is true.

And if they did vote they'd vote Repuke I'm sure.

[Xenotime]

103. Excellent point.

[ZombieHorde]

119. How do you win elections without voters? nt

[Ozymanithrax]

12. The rich smoke cigars (El Rushbo loves them) so it hits everyone equally.

The needs of the many (children) outweigh the pain in the ass to the few (nicotine addicts).

And they are not taxing the poor, they are taxing a luxury items that has very real health dangers.

They should also legalize Pot, sell it in Pot shops, and tax it until each leaf screams.

[ZombieHorde]

17. Everybody is not hit equally. Rush makes more money than poor people.

poor smokers are pissed. Democrats do not win elections by pissing off the poor.

[Ozymanithrax]

23. Well, then poor smokers should consider if their pleasure or children's health is more important.

I suspect that Cigar store owner believes that his comfort outweights the health of children, if he ever bothers to think. Perhaps he should open a toy store.

[ZombieHorde]

26. Why not tax the wealthiest Americans? nt

[Ozymanithrax]

52. I am all for increasing the tax on the wealthiest Americans.

I am also for targeting taxes that help the poor, like Schip. Schip is a program that helps the children of the poor and middle class. Because smoking is a huge health problem, taxing that smoke to support health is an appropriate tax.

I have one glass of red wine a day for health reasons. I favor doubling the tax on wine if it is used to address health issues in the U.S. today. I drink soda, raise taxes on soda to address the problems caused by obesity. Double the tax on Yachts and sports cars. And, while we are at it, return to the tax structure circa 1955.

Taxing the rich is only part of the answer.

[Codeine]

78. Let's do that too.

One hardly precludes the other.

[Mimosa]

45. Cigar smokers don't generally smoke around children.

Most of us smoke outside in the open air, like relaxing on our decks or patios.

[Ozymanithrax]

58. So you would rather have a cheap pleasure when children go without health care?

Yes, that is a ugly question, and the answer is no. I am sure you believe the poor and middle class children deserve help form the government. Smoking is a massive health problem in the U.S. and leads to higher medical costs for non smokers, including children.

If it helps people, I am content to have all my vices taxed, as long as they don't tax my opinions.

Oh hell, let them tax my opinions, too.

[Mimosa]

31. Not all cigar smokers are rich

I smoked the occasional cigar for years and know enough about handmade cigars and tobacco to have been a judge/panelist for a cigar magazine.

I used to smoke one a day until Katrina. Now I smoke one every 6 weeks or even more.

The tobacco tax has made the price of cigars go way up. Cigars are made from natural tobacco which isn't usually chemically enhanced, unlike the tobacco used in cigarettes. Also cigar smoking is not addictive. I and many other cigar smokers can attest to that.

A lot of the toxins from cigarettes come from the burning paper being ingested.

[Hannah Bell]

46. no, it doesn't. & rushbo orders from cuba.

[Xenotime]

105. How is that possible? Isn't that illegal?

[revolution breeze]

112. Not from Cuba

Finck Cigar Company proudly lets it be known the Limpballs is not only a customer, but also endorses their company. Cuban cigars are still illegal and can not be ordered for delivery in the United States. They will be seized by Customs, just as if you buy them in Canada or Mexico and try bringing them across the border (hubby has had them seized at both borders).

[Hannah Bell]

129. And then I went to London last September with the same friend who had the pre-Castro Montecristos.''

Limbaugh stayed at the Connaught Hotel, "and I got up on a Friday morning and walked across the street to Desmond Sautter's. And I was in heaven.'' The store didn't have any Hoyos, he says, "but they had some Punch Double Coronas and Partagas Lusitanias and Montecristo No. 2's. And I tried them. And I don't care what anybody says. I know it's a matter of taste, but as far as I'm concerned, this is something that not even the Communists have been able to screw up. It's the best tobacco in the world. There's no comparison. This is not to put anybody else's down. I've looked into it. I've studied it. It's like Bordeaux grapes. You can try growing them in California, but they're not the same. They've taken Cuban seed to Jamaica and Honduras, but it just isn't the same.''

Limbaugh loves sitting back and relaxing with a cigar. "Of course you have to save the Cuban cigars for special occasions. I like keeping things special in my life. So I do smoke some Honduran Punches now and then. And I still have a box of Ashtons and Partagas No. 10's. But this is a special occasion. Being interviewed by Cigar Aficionado is a special occasion. And this Ramon Allones Gigante is a hit. This is like five Cohiba Robustos rolled into one.''

http://www.cigaraficionado.com/Cigar/CA_Profiles/People_Profile/0,2540,18,00.html.

[revolution breeze]

137. Wow, I guess Finck can take down the sign in their shop

Hubby likes his cigars (outside on the deck in the evening while listening to the mosquitoes hum) so thought it would be a blast to visit Finck when we went to San Antonio. There was a sign stating they were the "Sole Supplier of Tobacco to Rush Limbaugh". I told hubby I would wait in the car in 100+ degree weather rather than allowing that proclamation ruin my otherwise spectacular day.

[ejpoeta]

70. you are actually going to say it hits them equally. rush makes millions of dollars.

the poor are the poor. and while you may not agree with how they choose to spend what little they have, the fact is that poor people smoke more and eat less fruits and vegetables. so increasing taxes on tobacco is increasing taxes on the poor. i know, it's easy to target smokers. and if anyone tries to stand up for them then they'll get flamed. taxing cigarettes is fine. but hte punative tax on it is ridiculous.

[ProgressiveProfessor]

59. It is a major mistake to use sin taxes for things like childrens health care

Its very short sighted. Demand via the taxed channels will drop and over time fade to much less that its former level. The programs depending on its funding now have to compete with other high demand programs for general revenue. All the programs suffer.

[slampoet]

91. I vote we Kill Nuns and baby Ducks with a shredder to protect the children!!!

Because i have no shame about using children as a human shield for my politics.

[Kalyke]

107. And if children's health is so important, then why not tax something

everyone uses rather than tax the goods of a small niche group who can just choose to either quit or buy cigarettes online or from reservations instead of paying taxes?

[OmmmSweetOmmm]

113. It's a regressive tax that places undue hardship on poorer smokers. Let the rich pay for

schip.

[bighart]

145. So how about we tax a product you buy all the time to pay for it?

You like bread, how about a $1.60 per loaf tax to pay for children's health care/ You use toilet paper, how about a $1.60 tax per roll on that? Or better yet, what is your "sin" of choice we'll just keep raising taxes on that.

[Chan790]

4. I hope it puts him and every smoke shop owner in America out of business then.

Tobacco needs to be one of the three most taxed and regulated substances in America, along with alcohol and marijuana. He can cry mercy all he wants, he should have found a better product to sell...I have no sympathy for drug pushers of any stripe.

[ZombieHorde]

9. "I have no sympathy for drug pushers of any stripe"

Fuck doctors!

[Chan790]

18. yup.

The ones who prescribe unnecessary drugs, at least.

Oh and all pharmacists, I just don't like the way the guy at my local CVS leers at me when I'm buying condoms, the large bottle of K-Y, fiber supplements and baby-wipes in the same transaction.

[ZombieHorde]

20. He is just jealous. nt

[Mimosa]

33. This native American wishes you knew more about tobacco.

Unadulterated tobacco isn't a toxin.

Any substance people use can be abused.

I guess you hate wine and beer and think they ought to be taxed so people can no longer afford to drink with their meals?

[uppityperson]

37. Do you not drink water with meals?

[Mimosa]

40. Fish pee in water! Haven't you heard? LOL! n/t

[RandiFan1290]

41. Water?

Like from the toilet?

Gross

;)

[panader0]

43. What's your vice?

[Chan790]

51. Recreational sex.

Sportfucking.

[devilgrrl]

68. Sportfucking? Ever worry about crabs, gonorrhea, syphilis, AIDS, unwanted pregnancy?

slut

[Chan790]

72. Thank you.

I'm hardcore on the testing for all that. Sterile too. Ethical Slut. :D

[ProgressiveProfessor]

60. But think of this children and their need for health care

:sarcasm:

[Chan790]

65. Oh, my end here is the end of tobacco usage by a substantial population portion.

I'm just short of an outright prohibitionist.

[ProgressiveProfessor]

71. I have no use for it either, but using sin taxes from it to fund critical programs like health care

is a recipe for disaster.

The biggest tobacco addicts are the states who get large sums of money for the tobacco settlement. Attempts to start new tobacco companies (and therefore not subject to the settlement) have been beaten down as have Indian smoke shops. The states desperately want that money. However as smoking declines, so does the revenue. That means less revenue for health care, which means other programs get cut into since health care is a hard thing to cut.

[robdogbucky]

86. Please

stop with the putting marijuana in the same group as two poisons:

"Tobacco needs to be one of the three most taxed and regulated substances in America, along with alcohol and marijuana."

Annual Deaths in the US due to:

Tobacco 435,000
Poor Diet and Physical Inactivity 365,000
Alcohol 85,000
Microbial Agents 75,000
Toxic Agents 55,000
Motor Vehicle Crashes 26,347
Adverse Reactions to Prescription Drugs 32,000
Suicide 30,622
Incidents Involving Firearms 29,000
Homicide 20,308
Sexual Behaviors 20,000
All Illicit Drug Use, Direct and Indirect 17,0001,
Non-Steroidal Anti-Inflammatory Drugs Such As Aspirin 7,600
Marijuana 0

http://drugwarfacts.org/cms/?q=node/30



Sheesh. I would expect this kind of a claim on some other low information message board, but not on DU.


Hands off my Social Security!
Hands off Latin America!



Just my dos centavos


robdogbucky

[Chan790]

93. Ignores a very key fact...

Marijuana smoke is as likely than tobacco smoke to cause lung cancer. (For that matter, inhaling aerolized scorched particulate of any plant-matter is just about equally as bad. Most simply don't have a pharmacological effect.) It counts all the lung cancer deaths caused by long-term tobacco smoking while intentionally ignoring that if the usage rate of marijuana were the same, the long-term cancer rate would be about the same. All that zero represents is nobody ever dies of a THC overdose.

Legalize Marijuana. Both can be taxed heavily and should be. I say that as an infrequent pothead.

Your problem here is that I'm not a low-information poster...I actually know the carcinogenic properties inherent to marijuana. They're largely the same as those in tobacco.

[robdogbucky]

95. Oh Really?

Study Finds No Link Between Marijuana Use And Lung Cancer

ScienceDaily (May 26, 2006) — People who smoke marijuana--even heavy, long-term marijuana users--do not appear to be at increased risk of developing lung cancer, according to a study to be presented at the American Thoracic Society International Conference on May 23rd.

Marijuana smoking also did not appear to increase the risk of head and neck cancers, such as cancer of the tongue, mouth, throat, or esophagus, the study found.

The findings were a surprise to the researchers. "We expected that we would find that a history of heavy marijuana use--more than 500-1,000 uses--would increase the risk of cancer from several years to decades after exposure to marijuana," said the senior researcher, Donald Tashkin, M.D., Professor of Medicine at the David Geffen School of Medicine at UCLA in Los Angeles.

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2006/05/060526083353.htm


And

Public release date: 19-Nov-2008
< Print Article | E-mail Article | Close Window >

Contact: Gary Wenk
[e-mail]
614-688-3404
Ohio State University
Scientists are high on idea that marijuana reduces memory impairment
COLUMBUS, Ohio – The more research they do, the more evidence Ohio State University scientists find that specific elements of marijuana can be good for the aging brain by reducing inflammation there and possibly even stimulating the formation of new brain cells.
The research suggests that the development of a legal drug that contains certain properties similar to those in marijuana might help prevent or delay the onset of Alzheimer's disease. Though the exact cause of Alzheimer's remains unknown, chronic inflammation in the brain is believed to contribute to memory impairment.
Any new drug's properties would resemble those of tetrahydrocannabinol, or THC, the main psychoactive substance in the cannabis plant, but would not share its high-producing effects. THC joins nicotine, alcohol and caffeine as agents that, in moderation, have shown some protection against inflammation in the brain that might translate to better memory late in life.
"It's not that everything immoral is good for the brain. It's just that there are some substances that millions of people for thousands of years have used in billions of doses, and we're noticing there's a little signal above all the noise," said Gary Wenk, professor of psychology at Ohio State and principal investigator on the research.


And

University Of Saskatchewan Research Suggests Marijuana Analogue Stimulates Brain Cell Growth
ScienceDaily (Oct. 16, 2005) — A synthetic substance similar to ones found in marijuana stimulates cell growth in regions of the brain associated with anxiety and depression, pointing the way for new treatments for these diseases, according to University of Saskatchewan medical research published today in The Journal of Clinical Investigation.

Xia Zhang, an associate professor in the U of S neuropsychiatry research unit, led the team that tested the effects of HU-210, a potent synthetic cannabinoid similar to a group of compounds found in marijuana. The synthetic version is about 100 times as powerful as THC, the compound responsible for the high experienced by recreational users.
The team found that rats treated with HU-210 on a regular basis showed neurogenesis – the growth of new brain cells in the hippocampus. This region of the brain is associated with learning and memory, as well as anxiety and depression.
The effect is the opposite of most legal and illicit drugs such as alcohol, nicotine, heroin, and cocaine.
“Most ‘drugs of abuse’ suppress neurogenesis,” Zhang says. “Only marijuana promotes neurogenesis.”

And


Cannabis Compounds Reduce Multi-Drug Resistant Infections
Cannabis Science, Inc. (OTCBB: GFON). Dr. Robert Melamede, PhD., Director and Chief Science Officer, reported to the Board on the current state of research into the use of natural plant cannabinoids to reduce the spread of drug-resistant bacteria, including methicillin-resistant Staphyloccus aureus (MRSA), and the prospects for development of topical whole-cannabis treatments.

According to studies published in the Journal of the American Medical Association and by the Center for Disease Control in 2007, MRSA is responsible for more than 18,500 hospital-stay related deaths each year, and increased direct healthcare costs of as much as $9.7 billion.

Dr. Melamede stated, "Research into use of whole cannabis extracts and multi-cannabinoid compounds has provided the scientific rationale for medical marijuana's efficacy in treating some of the most troubling diseases mankind now faces, including infectious diseases such as the flu and HIV, autoimmune diseases such as ALS (Lou Gehrig's Disease), multiple sclerosis, arthritis, and diabetes, neurological conditions such as Alzheimer's, stroke and brain injury, as well as numerous forms of cancer. One common element of these diseases is that patients often suffer extended hospital stays, risking development of various Staphyloccus infections including MRSA. A topical, whole-cannabis treatment for these infections is a functional complement to our cannabis extract-based lozenge."

Investigators at Italy's Universita del Piemonte Orientale and Britain's University of London, School of Pharmacy reported in the Journal of Natural Products that five cannabinoids - THC, CBD, CBG, CBC, and CBN - "showed potent antibacterial activity" and "exceptional" antibacterial activity against two epidemic MRSA occurring in UK hospitals. The authors concluded: "Although the use of cannabinoids as systemic antibacterial agents awaits rigorous clinical trials, … their topical application to reduce skin colonization by MRSA seems promising. … Cannabis sativa … represents an interesting source of antibacterial agents to address the problem of multidrug resistance in MRSA and other pathogenic bacteria."

More:

http://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/147523.php





Reading coverage of marijuana research in the mainstream press increases the risk of becoming misinformed by 50-300%. More research is clearly needed to identify further sources of flawed marijuana reporting. The risk of bad reporting remains stable despite concerted efforts to inform the media that hysterical claims about marijuana frequently lack scientific merit. Exposure to poorly researched news about marijuana is correlated with support for costly, ineffective, highly punitive marijuana laws.


Just my additional centavos


robdogbucky

[ZombieHorde]

6. "I had a smoke while I talked to him" - - You are worse than Hitler!

Jokes aside, regressive taxes do not help Democrats. We win by helping the poor, not by fucking their wounds.

[Ozymanithrax]

15. It is a tax on an item, not on the poor,

The tax increases depending on the level of addiction, not on social class. Actually, the rich who can afford to buy better and more cigars will pay more. So this tax is not regressive.

[ZombieHorde]

25. Way more poor people are regular smokers than rich people.

This is the same as taxing soda or fast food. We are going after shit poor people like. Why not simply raise taxes on the wealthiest Americans?

[earthside]

35. Democrats never learn.

Indeed.

This kind of 'nanny-ism' ... the "we know what's best for you attitude" that Democrats in government tend to develop always leads to eventual defeat.

Average working, union-type Democrats like their guns, their beer, their hamburgers, their football, some still like their cigarettes ... are yet they are still at heart progressives and liberals.

When Democrats in power tax and over-regulate the things that working class folks like -- while at the same time we're spending trillions on wars and overseas military bases -- that is a prescription for another Reagan-like election.

When Democrats are populists and remember the regular people, they win ... but when they get snooty and act like they know better than the 'unwashed masses", well, then they lose.

[Mimosa]

42. Earthside you are 1,000 % correct!

I've been saying the same thing for the longest time. I wish I didn't have to. :(

[MindPilot]

82. +1000. Me too! K&R. I wish I could rec a single post

does that about cover it?

Opps almost forgot :thumbsup:

[cleanhippie]

8. "but they are now paying taxes way higher than they ever did before." - Really?

I did not realize that our taxes had gone up. Have they? My taxes last year actually went down a bit and my family is in the less than 100K bracket, so....

What gives?

[LiberalAndProud]

21. Federal sin tax.

http://www.ttb.gov/main_pages/schip-summary.shtml
The Children’s Health Insurance Program Reauthorization Act of 2009 (CHIPRA, Public Law 111–3) (“the Act”), was signed into law on February 4, 2009. The Act increases the Federal excise taxes on tobacco products, imposes a floor stocks tax, imposes new requirements on manufacturers and importers of processed tobacco, expands the definition of roll-your-own tobacco, and changes the basis for denial, suspension, or revocation of permits.

http://www.usatoday.com/money/perfi/taxes/2009-03-31-cigarettetax_N.htm
Smokers are gasping at higher cigarette and cigar prices as the largest federal tobacco tax increase in history takes effect.
"Oh my gosh," Bernardo Torres said Tuesday when a clerk at a CVS Pharmacy in Falls Church, Va., told him the new price, which went up in anticipation of the tax increase. Torres wanted to buy his aunt two cartons of cigarette-size cigars, but he walked away empty-handed after hearing the new price: $134. The tax on little cigars went from 4 cents to $1.01 a pack.

[frazzled]

22. Really NOT. It's a total lie.

This smoke shop owner is very disingenuous. Any time you hear someone rail against high taxes (save perhaps property taxes, which is local and has nothing to do with Obama), 99% chance it's a Republican.

[LiberalAndProud]

27. Oh please. We are talking about a specific tax increase on a specifiic product.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=9120725&mesg_id=9120838

[ProgressiveProfessor]

62. The majority of smokers are lower wage earners, blue collar etc

Some blame that on culture, reduced education, etc, but its true. The more you tax smokers, the more you tax the lower economic classes in society

[LiberalAndProud]

67. True.

However, if I had to spend two or three bucks way back when for my first pack, I never would have picked up the habit. Instead, I bought it for 35 cents out of a cigarette machine. No ID required.

I am now a confirmed smoker, spending between $3 to $4 a pack. I switched to a generic brand after the tax increase, which helped to offset the added expense. If there are youngsters who don't start because cost is prohibitive, I'm all for it.

[cleanhippie]

76. While I understand and generally agree with you...

it is difficult for me to feel compassion when a product that is not necessary for health and welfare has an increased tax. There is a very, very easy way to avoid paying this tax......

[LiberalAndProud]

80. very very easy

obviously you have never been a smoker

[comtec]

85. What the moral superior here don't understand is stress...

I used to think I knew what stress was... then my wife cheated on me, i'm in a foreign country where it FEELS like im quite unwanted, my job sucked, and im going through an identity crisis, and a divorce...

The cigs help... a massive amount!

I've always been a anti-smoker, and honestly have no problem with the anti-smoking laws in the US (Im from California), but ... I have empathy for my fellow smokers now.

It's a horrible thing i'm doing to myself, I know, but it's also oddly social.
I've started to re-connect with my ex-wife (who i live with... it's complicated) because we go out for smokes together.

Smoking isn't the horrible evil here that it is in the US, and it really is an amazingly social thing.

I'm past some major stress in my life (unemployed, but surviving) and cutting back to 0-2 a day.

But I find it really takes the edges off things.
I stopped while I was sick (of course) which im glad for. But I also noticed that I was angry again (not more, not the usual withdrawal, but how it was before I started).

As little as one cig every few days simply takes that horrible edge off life.

I understand the problem here, however. The sad part is the unenlightened self-interest.

There are two sides fighting here that should not be, and it really goes a long way to understanding he problem dem's have in poor areas.

S-CHIP is great for kids, and I agree that as a smoker I should pay a tax... but perhaps they should consider a sliding scale.
less on shag, more on high-end cigars.
I'm sure there's a way to, in the end, keep the income the same, but reduce the burden on poorer smokers.

To those that say "fuck the smokers"... keep in mind many of us are self-medicating for real problems.
If you took away our stress relief (which being chemical AND social, works DAMN fast) what is left?
Americans have the fewest vacation days of any civilized nation, we actually have sick days (an idea completely unknown in holland and many countries.. when you're sick... you're sick.) and we have a fucked up medical system that punishes genetics and poverty!

Yes it will hurt our health down the line... but it certainly makes living in the present tolerable.
and as a civic minded smoker, I never smoke in a public area, and always put my butts in the trash.

*sigh* oh well i'll probably be flamed anyway.

[cleanhippie]

90. Actually, I was.

Smoked from age 17 until 29. tobacco free ever since (except the occasional cigar) and Im 42 now.

[LiberalAndProud]

94. I'm envious. Not only were you able to quit, you remember it as easy.

I find that I have no desire to quit. And without that, the rest is academic.

[cleanhippie]

98. It was anything but easy....

required a total life change.

[LiberalAndProud]

104. Yea.

I have known one person who smoked without getting hooked. Not me.

Anyway, you realize that the "very very easy" part isn't. So if some kid doesn't start because he's got better things to do with the money, it's a good thing.

[Mimosa]

36. NO.

Taxes which take away a persons livelihood would definitely influence how he or she will vote.

I'm going to sign off and go do something useful now. I hate puritans and prudes! }(

[cleanhippie]

89. I don't understand. Are you implying

that I am a puritan and/or a prude?

[The Straight Story]

69. A 16oz bag of tobacco went from $18 to $65 - and that hit the poor the most

So yeah, their taxes went up. Why don't you favor taxes on abortion, sex, fast food, etc and so on? If we try hard enough we can control the poor and make them live their lives how you see fit. Just like the fundies want to do.

Control the poor, while the rich sit back and laugh.

Tax the poor, and then wonder why they won't vote for a dem in the future.

[cleanhippie]

75. Ahh, a consumption tax...

not an income tax.

Tax on abortion? Really?

Tax on sex? Selling sex is illegal, so thats a strawman. (But it shouldn't be illegal and should be taxed)

Fast food? We already DO pay taxes on that.




Not really seeing the problem here. It is very easy to avoid the tax on tobacco.......

[The Straight Story]

92. And it would be easy to avoid a tax on abortion wouldn't it?

But then there are those on the left who want to tax anything and everything they can in order to control the lives and behaviors of others.

We used to call such folks 'fundies' because they had a puritan view of the world and wanted to control the lives and behaviors of others.

I favor freedom, and letting people be themselves and make their own choices and not punishing them because we don't like their choices.

Your body, your choice. If you don't agree, just say so.

[cleanhippie]

97. Not sure what we are in disagreement of....

Reviewing my posts, I missed where I said anything about me wanting to control the lives and behaviors of others.

Wait, thats because I didn't.

But I agree with everything in your last post, just not sure where you got the idea I didn't.

[Starbucks Anarchist]

100. It's a tax on a product, not a class of people.

The fact that poor people smoke more on average than rich ones is just a coincidence.

[OmmmSweetOmmm]

114. Before I gave up smoking for the ecig, I wound up using special cut pipe tobacco to avoid the cost.

Now the Feds are moving in on ecigs. :(

[OmmmSweetOmmm]

131. An important point/ Most people make their own because they're poor.

[blue sky at night]

11. this is one issue I will not back down on....

we should continue to tax the shit of tobacco...it is a pure evil and if it stops a few people from buying then good....hope your "buddy" sleeps well at night knowing he sells a product that kills.

and hey people vote against their own best interests all the time, because they are Stupid!

wonder if that relates somehow to people who smoke.

[Hannah Bell]

47. tell it to the fucking military contractors, none of which bush or obama has raised taxes on.

[blue sky at night]

87. i see the president is in charge of taxes....

[Hannah Bell]

128. the president "proposes," congress "disposes". i've seen no proposals for special taxes on the

superprofits of military contractors.

[KittyWampus]

13. local cigar shop here is struggling with the insane taxes too. He gives me cigar boxes

for free.

He's hung for years, too.

[Mimosa]

38. Love really good cigar boxes!

Making cigar boxes gives people in the Islands jobs, too.

Have you ever seen a good cigar box turned into a cute handbag?

[mitchum]

50. I turn cigar boxes into guitars and amplifier housings...

I've never made a handbag from one, but have seen them, and they do look great

[Mimosa]

53. How cool, Mitchum!

Love your posting name. :D

[KittyWampus]

63. Yes indeed! I've done it :-D

[earthside]

19. Big Tax Increase

Well, yeah.

"... 35.36 cent per cigar tax increase on large cigars and a 97 cent increase on packages of small cigars. Pipe tobacco will be taxed an additional $1.73 per pound of tobacco." (http://www.accountingweb.com/item/107316)

That's the SCHIP tax that went into effect April 1, 2009.

As an occasional pipe and cigar smoker, I'm not very happy about the size of this tax increase ... I'm sure the tobacco shop owner is hurting because of this new burden.

Frankly, as long as this country keeps spending a trillion dollars a year on the military, I'm against any new taxes even of this sort.

People aren't stupid, folks who think the Repuglicans are nuts and who voted two years ago for Pres. Obama -- they want accountability -- and unfortunately in our rigid two party system the only way to send a message to the Democrats is to vote for the other party. Though most people on DU might disagree with this viewpoint, that is how the vast majority of voters see how the process is supposed to work.

[blue sky at night]

29. ya man....

let's vote for the fucks that drove us in the ditch, that'll learn em.

INDEED People are stupid if they think cutting off one's nose to spite one's face is good thinking.

oh, and it only took thirty years of repuke leadership to get us to this point, but the dems only have one election cycle to fix it, now there is some great forward thinking!!!

[alfredo]

24. Some don't differentiate between federal and state taxes.

When they say "my taxes are too high" they need to be reminded that federal taxes have gone down, but state and local taxes have gone up. Obama didn't raise your property taxes or sewer fees, your local government did.

Ask them which is better, making sure you have the money before you spend it (through tax increases or cuts in other areas), or do as the republicans: give tax cuts, invade Iraq, then borrow the money from China to pay for it.

[w8liftinglady]

28. yeah-these tax raises have really hurt the tobacco industry

Ceo pay for 2008/2009

http://www.aflcio.org/corporatewatch/paywatch/ceou/industry.cfm

MO ALTRIA GROUP INC Michael E. Szymanczyk 2008 12,023,549
LO LORILLARD INC Martin L. Orlowsky 2009 10,469,976
PM PHILIP MORRIS INTERNATIONAL Louis C. Camilleri 2009 29,364,371
RAI REYNOLDS AMERICAN INC Susan M. Ivey 2009 16,442,578
CIGX STAR SCIENTIFIC INC Jonnie R. Williams 2008 1,859,073
VGR VECTOR GROUP LTD Howard M. Lorber 2009 17,081,277

[Tikki]

32. I would like to thank the people of California for backing legislation..

that makes it harder to find a place to smoke in public and that raised the cost of smoking.

There is no sarcasm in this post.

Pressures from this legislation made me think CAREFULLY about my habit and was
a vital impetuous in my quitting smoking 6 years ago.


Tikki

[MindPilot]

83. In California you cannot smoke in a parking structure.

I could maybe see that from a fire prevention aspect, but it's because someone might inhale some smoke...in a place where cars are inside a building...being driven inside a building.

[The Velveteen Ocelot]

34. People don't have to smoke.

[Mimosa]

39. Or drink wine. Or tea. Or wear perfume. Or use fancy foods.

We can all live like Amish or the old Mormons! That's the ticket!

[The Velveteen Ocelot]

44. Nobody is suggesting any such thing.

Smoking has serious, known health consequences, both for smokers and for the people around them. Taxes have been used for many years to encourage or discourage behavior, and it makes sense to discourage a filthy habit that makes people sick. Alcohol, which is also dangerous if abused, is also heavily taxed. Perfume, tea and truffles, not so much.

If people want to smoke, fine, but the diseases they are likely to get create social consequences -- not just for them but for everybody else. If cigarettes are too expensive maybe people will quit smoking. That's good for everybody except the filthy rich tobacco industry.

[Mimosa]

48. The man in the OP owns a cigar store

Tobacco shops generally sell cigars and pipe tobacco. These are very different products than cigarettes.

I guess some people think it's fine for middle-aged people to lose their businesses when there aren't any jobs for them to get.

[Ozymanithrax]

55. No more than people think it is fine to let the children of the poor and middle class go without

health care.

[ProgressiveProfessor]

64. So taxing tobacco products is the only way to fund child health care in this country?

[Mimosa]

61. Obama smokes cigarettes, Bush didn't...

And Clinton smoked cigars.

President Obama:

[The Straight Story]

49. People don't have to have sex or abortions either, want to tax those things as well?

Why don't we just raise taxes on everything to discourage things we don't like - then we can be like the puritans of old.

[Ozymanithrax]

54. Tax sex? In many cases that would be a "pole tax" and is illegal. n/t

[cleanhippie]

143. This is the second time you make this assertion. Whats your deal with thinking

anyone wants to tax sex and abortion? Has anyone said that?

[nadinbrzezinski]

56. hmm SCHIP is one of the few things Republicans did right

2006

[LiberalAndProud]

57. 2009

[nadinbrzezinski]

117. Here you go

http://www.ama-assn.org/amednews/2006/12/11/gvsb1211.htm

Yes it was renewed in 2009... but the program was started in 1997. Yes by Republicans.

Jeesus age... there are days I wonder about DU.

[LiberalAndProud]

124. The record tax increase was enacted in 2009.

I'll concede that it is/was a Republicon tax (gasp!), but the humungous increase was enacted after Obama took office, so it looks like and feels like it came from our side of the aisle. End result, we have a tax increase (which I favor) that works to the con's advantage. They don't have to take the blame, but they can take the credit.

[nadinbrzezinski]

126. I give up

I really do...

[The Straight Story]

66. Raising taxes on those who do things we don't like - yeah, that is always good

Let's just keep up on that line of thinking. Eventually we will be like the damned fundies, forcing those who don't like doing things we hate into a position where they can't - unless they are rich. Screw the poor, we don't need their votes anyway - but we sure as hell will take their money any chance we get.

When we lose the next election you can look to the poor folks we fucked over and tell them 'We did it for you, because you are stupid and you need us to help you make better choices'.


Yeah. The RW fundies tell us the same thing - we don't know well enough and need them to make our choices for us.

Raise taxes on those who can least afford it and see who they vote for.

[Chan790]

73. If you can't tell...

I'd much rather just ban tobacco.

Outlawed. Paraquat the fields. Goodbye Smokey. Have a good night.

[mrcheerful]

77. Oh more Prohibition and drug war crap to make even more money for the state and does nothing

[nadinbrzezinski]

118. I am actually for NOT making crack tobacco

why it is so damn fucking addictive and damaging, is the process. Like coke... in it's natural form it is not that addictive and has a few descent side effects. Cocaine on the other hand... or processed tobacco...

We did that, the hit would be far less present, easier to quit and even when smoked would not have half the crap it is added... but that's just me.

Humans have lived with some form of drugs all our history... so sure... allow it, as far from processed as possible. Current cig addicts will not like it though. I can guarantee that.

[Warren DeMontague]

79. Let's see: Uninsured kids on one hand, "Oppressed" Smokers on the other.

I'm going with the uninsured kids.

[Mimosa]

81. If dedicated taxes stop people from buying the products...

after consumers quit purchasing tobacco products in any significant quantity because of high taxes, then the revenues to pay for the program will decline.

You can say the system will make it up on the back end because people will not suffer as many smoking related diseases. But then people live longer and rely on Social Security and Medicare.

A buddy who's a medical professor had said there are studies which showed it's actually more cost effective for people to smoke and die younger. Most Medicare costs are incurred at the end of life.

My mother, who I still love very much, smoked all her life. She developed emphysema, then lung cancer. She died at age 72. She might have lived 10 years longer if she hadn't smoked. But I don't 'blame' cigarettes for her death. She was going to die eventually, as each of us shall.

Work related stress can cause heart attacks. I've known two people who didn't smoke and died young -just over age 50- but nobody seems to care about that.

As a child I hated the smell of cigarettes and never picked up the habit. But I can't begrudge people some comfort, even if it's one I don't like.

[Warren DeMontague]

88. I'm sorry about your mom. My dad died of lung cancer, actually.

Camel Unfiltereds, because 'real men' didn't smoke the ones with filters. There is no doubt in my mind as to what killed him.

I think consenting adults should be able to make their own decisions about what they put in their bodies. But I also think it's reasonable to tax things like cigarettes, and alcohol, that have quantifiable societal health costs. If that means we should tax HFCS and trans fats as well, hey, go for it.

[RandomThoughts]

96. I agree a bit on that.

Although there should be a greed tax on wall street also. And a tax on those that hurt the environment.

And even a tax on those involved in race to the bottom economic systems.

[hayu_lol]

102. Have tried to see where the tabacco tax money(for children)has...

gone. Don't seem to be able to find much on that. If children's health care is so important, then all of us should fund it. Isn't that why we have'health care' reform?

How about $10.00 tax per can of beer, bottle of wine or booze? Would you non-smokers go for that?

Or maybe a good stiff tax on bike tires.

How about a stiff tax on cell phones?

Anyone up for taxes? Hmmm. Didn't think so.

[Warren DeMontague]

108. If you're going to ask a question and then answer it yourself, it's not a conversation.

I said I thought taxes on some things were reasonable, didn't I? And guess what- there are already taxes on liquor and beer. Hell, I think pot should be legal, regulated, AND taxed. Funny, too, how smokers will bitch and moan about how they're oppressed because they have to go outside to smoke (witness every single thread ever posted by the OP) and compare it to the drug war, but I have yet to come across a pot smoker who wouldn't consider it a huge improvement to be able to buy pot- taxed by the state- at the 7/11 and smoke it on the sidewalk.

Same situation causes cigarette smokers to throw a fit.

As for your "don't seem to be able to find much on that"; I'm not sure which state you're in, but I have to wonder if you looked very hard. In California, for instance, this is an excellent program and it was created and funded entirely through cigarette taxes:

http://www.ccfc.ca.gov/

[nadinbrzezinski]

116. My point is that this is a REPUBLICAN PROGRAM

SCHIP renewal expected, but funding remains the question
Congress is considering ensuring coverage for all eligible children -- a move that would cost billions.
By DOUG TRAPP, amednews staff. Dec. 11, 2006.

PRINT|E-MAIL|RESPOND|REPRINTS| SHARE
Washington -- Not only are lawmakers planning next year to reauthorize a state-federal health program for low-income children, some want to bolster it. But legislators have to work out the financing first.

Bipartisan support exists in Congress for reauthorizing the State Children's Health Insurance Program, which is set to expire Sept. 30, the end of fiscal year 2007.

SCHIP was created in 1997 as a way to cover the 10 million uninsured children in America at that time. Today it covers 6 million children. But because of the rapid growth in the uninsured, between 7.5 million and 10 million children remain without coverage, according to various estimates.

http://www.ama-assn.org/amednews/2006/12/11/gvsb1211.htm

And yes, it was one of the few good ideas they ever had...

[Starbucks Anarchist]

99. Again with the smoking.

:banghead:

[The Straight Story]

106. Again with the missing the real point, maybe because it is easier for you then dealing with the real

issues.

By your logic if I could have an abortion and fought for that right I would be 'biased' - this is not about smoking, it is about something bigger.

Care to deal with that? I really doubt you and others do, and take the easy way out and claim it is about 'smoking' because you can target that - how about you look at it like it really is - your body, your choice. It is not the govt's business - and I stand by my convictions even if it sometimes leads to things I don't like or care for.

There are those here however who will sell their values down the river in a NY minute when it comes to something they don't like because they really don't believe in the principals they espouse on some things.

At least I am consistent. I believe in freedom of choice, even when people make choices I don't like.

Maybe you don't, if so at least have the guts to tell us all you are against choice when it comes to things you don't like.

[Warren DeMontague]

110. You can't have an abortion in most bars and restaurants, either.

Being told where you can do something- or even paying additional taxes on it- is not the same as losing the right to do it.

[The Straight Story]

115. Being told you cannot do something amongst consenting adults

Is wrong. Period.

You can't have an abortion in a bar, but you can have one. If someone told you that you could not because it costs society too much money - well, would you go along with banning that to save us all some money in the long run?

People should be free to make choices about their lives and what they do with their lives. If you are for limiting that choice just say so.

[Warren DeMontague]

121. I am for regulating where people can smoke in indoor public spaces.

So are you, unless you think people should be able to light up in the ICU.

You can't smoke inside the bar or the restaurant, but you can go outside to do it. How you get from that to overturning Roe v. Wade... :eyes:

seriously, a little friendly advice? Try the patch or the gum, because the obsession is starting to take its toll.

[LanternWaste]

147. Including the unlicensed practice of medicine...

"Being told you cannot do something amongst consenting adults Is wrong."

Including the unlicensed practice of medicine between two consenting adults? Or are there indeed hidden qualifiers in your premise?

[Starbucks Anarchist]

125. You're equating smoking and abortion?

:wtf:

And I do believe in "your body, your choice," but that has nothing to do with the issue at hand. Tobacco isn't being banned. Nobody is forcing people to quit smoking.

The reason we claim it's really about smoking is because you always manage to shoehorn it onto every topic under the sun. You ever see "The Big Lebowski"? You're like Walter Sobchak, always throwing in Vietnam references to everything.

[Warren DeMontague]

109. Again?

You mean, always. :eyes:

[The Straight Story]

122. And if that is all the argument you have, you have lost

Seriously, you cannot do better that that??? How about taking on the basic ideals at least and telling me an others how you think their choices in life should be limited by you and others. Either you are for your body and your choice or you are not - and if you are not, please feel free to tell us why.

[Warren DeMontague]

127. It's the same fucking thing, over and over and over again.

Every single thread you post somehow relates to your rights being horribly infringed because you can't smoke inside the IHOP.

I've explained it very clearly: there is a difference between controlling other peoples' choices and what they do with their bodies, and telling them WHERE they can exercise those choices. No one is "banning" smoking, no one is arresting smokers. What smokers have to do, in most states, is go outside the bar or restaurant before lighting up.

[madinmaryland]

111. Sorry, but it is hard to feel sorry for a guy who is peddling a drug that kills

a hundreds of thousands people in this country every year.

So would we rather have poor children have needed health care or some addicted folks having their "cheap" cigars.

Sounds like a no-brainer to me.

[The Straight Story]

120. You mean a drug like oil and exhaust fumes that many here spew out each day?

You can walk to a store, take a bike, etc - yet so many do not. And all of those fumes from cars, and all of the electric generated for their internet is done so using carbon fuels.

Can you really say that your life is not impacting that of others in a negative way?

[madinmaryland]

130. Interesting arguement though essentially irrelevant. Since everyone in

this country actually relies on the generation of energy, the point you make has nothing to do with what my point was. How many people rely on cigarrettes, cigars, and booze to get to work and in general their lives.

Hmmm?

[varelse]

132. A shocking number rely on these things to get them through the day...

just sayin'

Not everyone has the $$$ for therapy or the time to take a vacation to relieve their daily dose of ridiculously high stress.

[Codeine]

140. I would argue a great deal of the "stress" they are relieving

is actually just the addiction symptoms expressing themselves. Imagine how much more pleasant their lives might be without that monkey on their back and some extra pocket money not being given over to the giant tobacco companies.

[Warren DeMontague]

144. Lots of people don't have 5 bucks a day for a pack of smokes, either. And exercise is free.

Best stress reliever out there, short of sex, IMHO.

[Fuzz]

123. I too enjoy the occasional cigar. Nice and relaxing.

Had an Oliva Master Blend 2 last night. One of my all time favorites, but they don't make them anymore. :(

[HuckleB]

134. Why should we take his word for the numbers he gave you?

After all, he claims that people making more than 250k are paying less than before.

I'm pretty that's not accurate, so why should we listen to him about what he says about his business?

[HuckleB]

135. From what I've found, taxes went up 61 cents a pack of cigarettes, and 40 cents per cigar.

Seems like your cigar shop owner isn't playing straight.

[evrstrong]

136. I truly believe..

most people are one issue voters.
And it goes right back to their wallets...or pocketbooks.

[NNN0LHI]

141. When your buddy said, "Hell, I voted for Obama", he was lying

Everyone I know says they voted for Obama. Just like no one I knew admitted to voting for Nixon after he resigned.

I don't let people play me for a fool that easy.

Don

[lumberjack_jeff]

142. I am very conflicted about this

You are absolutely right. Sin taxes hit the poor and working class especially hard - compelling many of them to vote against their main interest.
You are absolutely wrong. Taxes on tobacco encourage people to quit, and pay for the medical insurance of kids.

I don't smoke, by watched my dad die from it.

Maybe the issue needs more carrot. A tax credit for not smoking.

[HuckleB]

146. Why Do So Many Smokers Keep Paying High Tobacco Taxes?

http://scienceblogs.com/thepumphandle/2010/09/why_do_so_many_smokers_keep_pa.php

This seems to go against what the store owner told you.