your results may vary

[MichaelHarris]

I have been staying out of the discussions and pat downs at the airport because I knew my experiences would be at odds with the majority of those who frequent DU. I know that everyone's experiences are different than mine, so much depends on who is doing the pat down, the non-equal nature of the rules from airport to airport, and so on. As a photographer I see this all of the time. Hand search film at one airport and x-rays at another. Cameras that pass though one scanner and cause concern at the same airport on the way home. Yes, they have faults.

About my experiences with the pat down. I've had an artificial knee for about 12 years. I travel a lot and have had pat downs at every airport I've been in for the last 12 years, domestic and international. In every instance, in regards to the pat down aspect, I have been treated with the utmost respect, and never once "groped". As my post title says, your results may vary.

I've fought them over film, over carry on bags, even over a Kindle E-Reader. I've never worried about my "junk" being assaulted. I know I'm about to be attacked but I felt I would share my experiences with the pat downs.

[woo me with science]

1. The difference is

that the protocols have changed. Over the past 12 years, flying did not involve a choice between submitting to naked pictures or having your genitals groped.

[MichaelHarris]

2. I think

they changed 10 months ago if I'm not mistaken. I've flown numerous times since then. Also, my main airport is a major training location for TSA, new procedures happen there first.

[woo me with science]

4. I don't understand your point here.

Are you saying that you think the naked pictures and the groping are not occurring?

Or are you saying that because they did not happen to you, they are not important?

Or are you saying that because only some people have to submit to them, that they are not important?

I am not understanding your point here.

[gateley]

6. I just thought s/he meant that the body gropings had been going on for some

time - that the policy was implemented months ago, and s/he was only relaying personal experience :shrug:

I see NOTHING that indicates ANY of your multiple choice questions. You're reading into it.

[woo me with science]

9. No, the post is unclear, and I am merely trying to clarify the OP's point.

The OP appears to be sharing with us that he has not been bothered by the patdowns. However, it is not clear from the post if the OP has experienced one of the new "patdowns" at all.

Here is the relevant point to keep in mind: The difference between the old patdowns and the new patdowns is that the new patdowns BY DEFINITION involve touching, through the clothes, of the vulva or penis and scrotum.

Has the OP experienced the new patdown? I don't know. The OP says he has not been "groped," but I am not sure what that means. It could mean either of the following:

A. The OP was not touched on the genitals at all

OR

B. The OP was touched on the genitals, but the OP did not consider it "groping."

If the answer is A, I would respond that the OP's experience of NOT having his genitals handled by TSA agents is irrelevant to a discussion of the new patdowns, which by definition DO involve such touching. I would then ask him the point of his sharing that he, personally, has not been touched on the genitals. Is he doubting that others have been touched in that way? Is he saying that because he has not been touched, such touching is not important?

If the answer is B, and the OP has had his genitals handled by TSA, then his argument would SEEM to be the following: It is okay for the TSA to touch travelers' genitals, as long as they do so respectfully. Is that the OP's point? It would SEEM to be the OP's point, because he then writes that the experience "depends on who is doing the patdown." In other words, some touching of genitals by the TSA is acceptable because it is "respectful."

My response, if that is the OP's point, would be the following:

It does not matter one whit who is doing the patdown or how "respectful" it is. Whether a TSA agent touches passengers' vulvas, penises, and scrotums respectfully or gropes them with sexual intent, such touching of private parts of a person who is not a criminal suspect is STILL an egregious invasion and violation of Fourth Amendment protections.

So you see, I had several different possible responses to this post, depending on what the OP was trying to say. I was merely asking for clarification to save myself the trouble of writing ALL of this.

If someone makes a post on DU about a controversial topic, it is fair for others to wonder what the point or message of the post is. Here, the OP says that he was not assaulted or bothered. Why is he telling us this? What is his overall point about the policy?

[MichaelHarris]

11. I'm

telling you I was not assaulted or bothered. I was not touched on the genitals. I have flown 6 times since the new procedures. International once and domestic 5 times. Most of us do understand that you seem to want to fight about this. I can't speak for anyone else but I'm sure you are about to.

[woo me with science]

13. Actually,

I am not looking to fight with you or make this personal in any way. I have merely given my own responses to what you wrote, as should be expected on a message board. As I explained above, I didn't understand from the content of your post whether you had experienced the new patdowns or not. Thank you for clarifying that you have not.

I still am not sure what your point is in sharing that you were NOT touched there, when we know for a fact that thousands upon thousands of other people HAVE been. It SOUNDS a lot to me like the argument others are making to defend the policy, that "only two percent" undergo this experience...as though those two percent don't matter.

My aim in responding to your post is to underscore that I find irrelevant all the stories of how many are NOT subjected to this. I consider this an egregious violation of our Fourth Amendment protections, and I am outraged that ANYONE would be subjected to handling of their genitals by our government.

[MichaelHarris]

14. yeah

I can tell you're not looking to fight. Were you touched there during a search or are you just reading about it? Where is this thousand's upon thousand's of genital touching source? I would actually like to read that now that you've deemed my story irrelevant.

[woo me with science]

18. The numbers, direct from the TSA blog:

You ask, "Where is this thousand's upon thousand's of genital touching source? I would actually like to read that now that you've deemed my story irrelevant."


Here is your answer, direct from the TSA blog*:

1. "Approximately 2 million people fly in the United States every day."

2. "...less than 3% of passengers receive pat-downs."

Let's err on the low side and say that only two percent of passengers receive patdowns. That is still forty thousand per day receiving the new patdowns, by the TSA's own admission. And those new patdowns by definition include handling of the genitals.



My use of the adjective "irrelevant" was not meant as a personal attack on you or your experience. I am glad for you that you did not have to experience this. However, the fact that most don't experience the patdown is irrelevant to the fact that forty thousand Americans do, each and every day.

Every single day, forty thousand Americans who are not accused of any crime must hold up their hands and spread their feet apart like criminals to submit to government handling of their genitals.

I would be upset if it were only one thousand. It is simply wrong. This is something fascist governments do, not the United States of America. It does not significantly increase safety. IMO it is a SHOW, it is a violation of our Fourth Amendment rights, and it is unconscionable.

*http://blog.tsa.gov/2010/11/tsa-myth-or-fact-leaked-images.html

[gateley]

5. I didn't know that -- I thought these new "enhanced" pat downs were new.

And yes, results may vary.

[Motown_Johnny]

8. the x-ray images have been shown on TV, they are not naked pictures

not even close

[woo me with science]

10. I beg to differ.

Interesting fact: I posted one of these images on DU a while back and reversed it/posted the negative image using a photo editing program. Doing that gives you something that looks much more like a photograph.

DU admins removed it because of NUDITY.

[HipChick]

16. Unless someone can identify that as being them

I don't know what the deal is.I've been using those machines since they were in beta testing, if they end up posted in a bathroom some where, how is someone really going to identify who it is?

[Angry Dragon]

3. Up until the last two years I used to take 4-5 flights a year

I have been through the metal detectors, I have had my bags swabbed for explosives, I have been through the explosive puffer, I have been pulled aside for wanding, I have had my bags hand searched more than once. In all those times I have not been treated with any disrespect, in fact I have even joked with them as they were doing it. Perhaps it may have more to do with the attitude the search is approached than anything.

I will not go through the porno machines and we will see how the hands on pat down goes.

That said I feel the leaders have gone too far this time. If it is good enough for the majority of travelers to submit to this scan/pat down then all private flights need to go through this also. We as a people demand that the congress, president, federal employees have to go through this also. Until that is done then it is discrimination and in violation of the fourth amendment.

edit it for missing words

[Mz Pip]

7. Results may vary

that's for sure.

I flew a couple of weeks ago and it wasn't any different from 6 years ago.

I did get "groped" in Venezuela 13 years ago before 9/11. I kind of jumped because there was no warning. Just a grab, quick and to the point.

[kentuck]

12. Who hates "pat downs" more than just about anybody in the world?

Extremists from the Mideast and Africa, mostly...

[MichaelHarris]

15. I never had a problem

I remember my first one right after knee replacement when I still had staples. he asked if the area was tender before he ever touched my knee. To this day when I say, "I have a knee replacement" the very first thing they ask is, "is it tender or sore? Is it ok to pat the area?"

I know one poster above says there are thousands and thousands of groping charges but I just don't see it, that has never been my experience. I didn't even need to use capital letters either. For a person who didn't wanna argue he/she sure thought capital lettered words were important.

[HipChick]

17. I'm a frequent flyer travelling with a lot of electronic equipment..

I've had my fair share of negative TSA stories, but I can't say I've been "groped". I'll opt for body scan when possible.
Differences between airports can vary, I had things which didn't bother TSA here, but was immediately picked up going through an international security gate.