I got to get this off my chest even if it gets me banned

[SargeUNN]

I have started to not come to DU much anymore and don't really post as much as I use to. The reason is I am sick and tired of the garbage spewed here. Folks, it has made me feel we are useless on our side because we would rather fight with each other, turn on our own and see how vicious we can be with our own damn people. Now I agree that it is fine to disagree with our own and to have differing opinions but the tone is such that frankly I have become as many of those who use to listen to my talk show and now listen to my Old Time Radio show, tired of the crap from our side. I don't see a team that can work together and see too many that just likes to find fault but when it comes time to step up they sit down. I hate to say it but I am about to just do my part with those I feel will be part of the team and saying to hell with the rest. I can understand why the GOP won last election cycle and unless we decide to get our act together they will win the next one which means they will control all branches. I remember how bad it was with the past GOP control and suffered with the Katrina horror but some here seem to have their heads so far up their you know what they don't care. I frankly don't have time for losers like that and I damn sure won't throw my country away like those people. I don't care if you don't like this but hope it does help some to get in the game and stop being so damn toxic.

[boston bean]

1. Adios, i hate GBCW posts.

and on edit, I also hate, threats to leave you can't stand it here posts.

[The Velveteen Ocelot]

6. Where did the OP say he was going to leave?

He was expressing very legitimate frustrations, but he never said he was going to leave or threatened to do so. And even if he had, isn't that his right? Don't like it? Ignore it.

[boston bean]

25. Maybe a flame out. Pretty much the same.

[JTFrog]

129. self delete wrong spot. n/t

[quickesst]

242. Some people......

...simply cannot stand up to words spoken that speak in terms of reality. The op stated what most rational people would ackowledge as fact, but since it is in conflict with their own personal agenda, cannot accept that uniting as a "whole" party will somehow completely stop their personal goal without realizing that their "personal" agenda will advance further and faster through unity rather than through becoming a vigilante honing in on their personal issues by demeaning and attacking the group who will, in the longer run, achieve those goals much faster, and stronger than the tactics they are currenlty employing. It's really hard for me to fathom, given the intelligence of DU as a whole that more people cannot comprehend that. Thanks.
quickesst

[Name removed]

10. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Saboburns]

110. I hate people who hate GBCW posts

Just sayin

[boston bean]

128. I never said I hated anyone. I said I hated GBCW posts. Quite a difference there.

Just sayin

[JTFrog]

118. Bye.

[JTFrog]

139. .

[rhett o rick]

172. Looks like you are proving his point. Hate on. nm

[Jester Messiah]

275. Yep, looks like a proud part of the problem. [nt]

[Name removed]

277. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[JTFrog]

279. + 100000000000000000000000000

x 10.

[H2O Man]

2. Recommended.

I think that we should come up with a list of what the most important issues are to the majority of DUers; then a corresponding list of goals for each issue; then an outline for doing what is possible to reach those goals; and them, get busy.

[boston bean]

7. That absolutely won't help. You will never be able to come up with a list

that most like and have a majority. The minority or what appears to be a minority will never be happy.

I've been unhappy with DU on and off for years. Love Hate relationship. There is no need to try and control the board this way.

If someone doesn't like it they can take a break without announcing in an effort to control. I've done it on occasion. And I would never think so much of my own opinion that my threatening to leave or voicing my unhappiness could change people on DU.

[H2O Man]

12. I'm not sure if

what I suggested entails an attempt to control the board. I honestly do not think it does.

I favor self-control. A single person exercising self-discipline can do far more than one hundred undisciplined people. As Malcolm X used to say, a dependable work horse is more valuable than any undependable race horse. There are plenty of good work horses on this forum. Harnessing our efforts offers far greater potential than the nonsense that we both see happening here far, far too often.

[boston bean]

14. I hear what you are saying. but I would never recommend a post where one is trying to control

a board by name calling people they don't agree with.

I was suprised to see you do that.

i am all in favor of self control, I have done it many times. I've done it by not allowing myself a pity me poor me party, i can't stand du post.

[H2O Man]

18. Sometimes, I

recommend OPs that I want to call attention to, regardless of if I agree or disagree with the opinion expressed. In such cases, it is because I am hoping that others will read what comment(s) I have added. Perhaps this is a feeble attempt to increase the possibility that my voice will be heard.

[boston bean]

20. That didn't occur to me. I usually recommend posts I agree with. I've learned something new about

you today.

[H2O Man]

24. There was a time

when DU was a more united group, when by my simply posting an OP, I could be confident that I would be heard. Those days are long gone, and I doubt that they will ever return. I am now on the fringe of DU.

Thus, I keep in mind the concept of setting a clean glass of water next to a dirty glass, with confidence that any thirsty person will be able to see the difference.

[boston bean]

32. I also feel like the fringe on DU. I really don't know if you and I are part of the same perceived

fringe, but there are probably 2-3-4 groups of people with very different feelings, thoughts and ideas on how they wish the board fit their ideology better.

I just try to go with the flow and be myself. Sometimes that gets me in trouble and makes people mad at me. And sometimes I learn an awful lot because of it.

If things get to feel a little to personal, that is when I take a break. The break might be a day or two a week or a month or longer.

[H2O Man]

34. I believe that we are

residents of the same fringe. That is my impression from reading quite a few of your contributions to this forum. I am encouraged that you are here.

[boston bean]

41. Back at you!

I do read your stuff all the time, but I must admit, and it's totally me, because I'm a bottom liner, don't know if you noticed that or not? And I'm not a really good writer, so when I read your writings I get a little lost and sometimes I have a hard time figuring out the real point you are trying to make. But truly, I read replies to your threads to try to catch on. HA HA HA HA LOL. No I've embarassed myself probably to no end. LOL

Please take this as criticism of myself, certainly not your writing style.

Next time, dumb it down for me. :-)

I'm glad you're here too!

[blondeatlast]

81. I think EVERYBODY on DU feels like the "fringe." nt

[Beetwasher]

218. Not Me, I Realize That Everyone NOT Like Me Is An Idiot

It's much simpler that way.

[malaise]

167. I don't see you on the fringe

I find your posts very thoughtful.

[KoKo]

187. What was "Front Run" when we were "Minority" is now "Back Run" to Oblivion...

Times they Do Change........It's what it is..what it is.....

[Name removed]

134. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[lillypaddle]

249. Funny

:thumbsup:

[Name removed]

173. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[herbm]

251. I thinked he nailed it.

[Name removed]

262. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

274. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[scarletwoman]

27. That would be a great thing to do, although I do wonder how something like this which would require

a large amount of sustained focus would survive among all the shiny object of the day posts that seem to dominate the discussions here.

I think it would require recruiting a core group of posters willing to commit to staying on task and keeping such a project kicked up and visible day after day.

I would volunteer to be a member of that core group.

sw

[H2O Man]

33. I both agree

and appreciate the fact that you and a handful of others here understand both the benefits of a disciplined approach, and the dangers of the glittery distractions.

[Jackpine Radical]

160. I think we could get the management to create a dedicated forum

that would contain only threads related to the ongoing project. In fact, without looking, I suspect there might be some DU forums like that already in existence for us to use. I haven't poked around in the more obscure parts of the board for a long time.

[KoKo]

177. I think that's admirable..but "wishful thinking." Sad..but it is ..what it is. n/t

[scarletwoman]

179. Yes, I think that a dedicated forum would be useful for part of what H2O Man was talking about.

come up with a list of what the most important issues are to the majority of DUers

I think that creating that initial list ought to be done right here in GD -- it would require a big sustained thread that the committed core group I mentioned would work to keep kicked and visible over several days.

I can see that a separate forum where the "core group" can meet and strategize each of the steps in the process would probably be a very good thing. It would save everyone the hassle of keeping up with a bunch of PMs back and forth.

After strategizing in the small forum, I'd like to see the next part that H2O Man suggested -- "a corresponding list of goals for each issue" -- also be presented in GD in another sustained thread in order to make it available for broad participation.

I wonder if the good folks in the Socialist Progressives Group would mind if we took up part time residence there?

sw

[KoKo]

186. That would be excellent if you could do that. A "project"..and with

DEDICATED to Cause...

What you forget is that DU already has many FORUMS dedicated to what you suggest. They've been here and they lanquish.

Remember the "DU ACTIVIST FORUM?" It went there and DIED!

Just saying...how hard this all is to get past the "GATE KEEPERS."

[Jackpine Radical]

192. The activist forum is still there, waiting to do our bidding.

I went & looked since my last post.

All we have to do is start a thread there and since it's so slow-moving, the thread will just naturally stay on top.

Edited to add this link. Go have a look. It only has about 10 or 12 threads begun in 2010.

Economic Activism and Progressive Living Group

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topics&forum=255

[KoKo]

200. Deleted by Poster.

[KoKo]

204. Not really...it's kind of been dead since Kerry Lost..folks moved on to FIREDOGLAKE

and other Places to do Activism.

I would certainly be thrilled if the "DU ACTIVIST" site got ACTIVATED... But, I'm not holding my breath on it. Things in Politics have gone WAY BEYOND DU these Days.

But...I still love DU and think if it "wanted to be"..."it could be" a FORCE for the FUTURE.

But, I do not believe that "DU" really wants to be what "WE WANT IT TO BE." Therein lies the DILEMNA!

[Jackpine Radical]

271. I think I understand what you're saying, KoKo, and you're right

about the de-activation of the activist forum, but DU is not a monolith; there are so many people checking in here that I expect quite a few could be enticed into more active roles, and the fact that the activist forum is currently quiet simply means that it's available for our use if we want it as a "staging area" for things that could then find their way into GD or wherever, and maybe ultimately onto the streets.

[OneGrassRoot]

29. I agree wholeheartedly. Perhaps if you recommend it, more will listen. n/t

[patrice]

31. THAT's the basic problem H2O Man, no productive process + high probability of POSING. I'm not sure

that I agree with the specific process that you have sketched here, but process is the fundamental problem nonetheless.

Perhaps what DU needs is a process for discovering what its Process is, otherwise it is SERIOUSLY in danger of going the way of NPR.

[OneGrassRoot]

35. I'm discovering that many who are online...

aren't necessarily do'ers. They are active in gathering and distributing information, which is very good, but DOING something in the real world, taking action to work toward the society they wish to create -- especially when it requires thinking outside the box (versus becoming apathetic because of "how things have always been and they're not going to change") -- isn't very popular.

I've tried, very unsuccessfully.

:(

But, perhaps it's just me. There are others who can hopefully gather those who want to do more and focus.

Count me in if such a group is created.


EDIT TO ADD that I realize many people have been fighting the good fight for a long time, and they're very tired. I understand that; it's those who have fight left in them that I refer to in this comment.

:hi:

[patrice]

46. Love your avatar! It is soooooooooo odd, I was thinking about a puzzle metaphor just the other day!

Thinking about the differences and similarities between people and how to honor whatever authentic truth there is in any of that.

Have you ever read Paulo Freire's Pedagogy of the Oppressed . . . ? I found this book very inspiring, because it is about essential freedom and how to help people at the absolute most rock bottom in an economic system to discover their freedom step by step through their OWN concrete actions. Freire focuses on what he calls praxis, very disciplined specific and uniquely individual WORK and the word individual in this context means that the person identifies with what they are doing, rather than just accepting whatever to do.

It IS time for this kind of change.

See you on FaceBook!

:hi:

[OneGrassRoot]

48. No, but thanks for the recommendation!

I could use some inspiration. Sounds perfect.

:)

[KoKo]

196. Hey...I understand what you say..experience of many who are silent...but

have been that road...and see ...but FOLKS HAVE TO KEEP ON....KEEPING ON... One Day...something will JELL and MAKE IT WORTHWHILE... I cannot GIVE UP HOPE! Because it has SUSTAINED SO MANY MOVMENTS FOR CHANGE! Folks will not give up but move from PLACE TO PLACE ...to GET RETRIBUTION...and MOVING FORWARD!

It's what "Movement of our SOCIETY" has ALWAYS been ABOUT! Looks BLEAK NOW...but it WILL COME!

[AspenRose]

93. I like that idea.

It's worth a shot, at least.

[H2O Man]

98. I might give it

a try in the next couple of days. There's one other issue that I am going to address first, that kind of relates to this. Maybe I can combine the two ....

[KoKo]

178. This is a hard one to ponder...lot's of though..figuring out if sincere or not...

If...it's sincere...then a thoughtful dialog might be proposed... If it isn't then is it worth a bother with it.

It's definitely a dilemna.. .. I would have wanted to post something substantive...but, held back because it didn't seem to be a situation that would warrant it...But, "every little bit counts" but sometimes things are a "time waster"...if you get my drift.

Peace!

[timtom]

135. A plan!

I'm on board! What's next: a poll? Some way to quantify the important issues facing
America and liberals?

[sendero]

146. Goal...

.. put an end to corporate control of our government.

There's your list. Do that, everything else will follow.

[herbm]

252. When voters lead, leaders follow. More time in the streets. Less time typing on DU.

[KoKo]

176. OP joined in April, '08...maybe got misplaced? n/t

[herbm]

250. That would be like herding cats.

[hlthe2b]

3. We always have cycles....

What issues are you referring to that you currently find results in such toxic discussion? I'm not saying I disagree with you, just that I'm not seeing those threads that would lead me to conclude things are demonstrably worse now than say, a few weeks ago or other period. :shrug:

[hlthe2b]

79. Seems some on this thread have answered my question...

I'm sorry, Sarge... I know how sincere you are in your post and you don't deserve the snarkiness I see down thread.

[herbm]

253. I agree with you.

[The Velveteen Ocelot]

4. It's all in our fine tradition of the circular firing squad.

And yes, it's extremely frustrating.

But if it's any consolation the GOPers are doing it too, with the teabaggers vs. the "establishment." We can only hope their circular firing squad is even half as effective as ours always is.

[Xenotime]

5. You are acting exactly the way teabaggers want you to act...

It's them that are to blame.

[pintobean]

17. 75% of their time is spent discussing DU infighting.

:sarcasm:

[patrice]

57. That is a very constructive criticism! ALL of us (including myself) should consider the truth of

how it applies to ourselves.

[leftstreet]

8. I don't see much fighting here

:shrug:

Polls and Rec feature indicate the majority lean to the left.

I seriously doubt the GOP took the House because DUers disagreed over a few things

[Obamanaut]

9. The thing is, logging on to DU and opening Palin threads are quite

similar in that no one forces you to do either.

One can bypass the Palin threads, and one can do something other than logging on.

[bobbolink]

11. You don't post here much because of the infighting.

Then, to set a better tone, you say:

"I frankly don't have time for losers like that and I damn sure won't throw my country away like those people. I don't care if you don't like this but hope it does help some to get in the game and stop being so damn toxic.

~~~~holding up mirror~~~~

[Morning Dew]

13. Fighting on DU? Perish the thought.

I think you have a mild misperception of lively debate between good friends.

:evilgrin:

[EFerrari]

15. Be the change, Sarge.

:)

[Tuesday Afternoon]

16. in the Lounge, I would think this a sly copycat of Monique1

:popcorn:

[Catshrink]

19. I hear your frustration.

Some of this is the nature of the Democratic party - big tents invite diverse opinions. It is fun to watch the Republicants deal with the teabaggers for their dose of big tentism.

DUers spewing RW talking points pisses me off.

[bahrbearian]

30. +1

[Edweird]

21. Well, to your credit you finally made a post that didn't include "I survived Katrina -

your argument is invalid". That's worth something.

[patrice]

22. You're right Sarge, that will get you banned. I agree with you. It appears that there are members

here whose primary function is to create enmity amongst Liberals/the Left at a time when the margins are acutely narrow and then it appears that many pretend like all of this is something that it isn't, i.e. honest.

[herbm]

254. what did sarge say that will get him banned?

[Name removed]

23. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[aikoaiko]

26. This is such a healing post. Thank you.

:sarcasm:

[patrice]

37. As is your response. (insert sarcasm emoticon here)

[aikoaiko]

38. Maybe more so than you realize.

[patrice]

40. This "homey" don't play that game.

[Binka]

159. wrong place n/t

[Stevenmarc]

28. Neat, make sure you plug your site while you chastise

[Catherina]

75. I just googled his radio show. Looks interesting and worthwhile.

Good guests, good format, good subjects.

I dislike this thread but it looks like a good show. I bookmarked it to listen to.

Here's what Joe Bageant had to say

When it comes to being interviewed, one of my very favorite radio hosts is Jeff Farias. Most liberal radio interviewers get caught up in the Empire's media noise, and become part of the self-referential circle jerk of facts and figures and mainstream media citations that pass for news and information in this country. Apparently talking like two human beings is a big no-no these days (unless it's pointless talk radio jibber-jabber, or emotional outraged call-in stuff, which seems to be permissible, if one adheres to the demographic slicing and dicing conducted by those of the Empire's commissars called marketers). But talking to Jeff is like sitting in the back yard with a cold drink and just chatting about the state of things. Kind of free form, and relaxed. Laughing is permitted. Real homey. We need more shows like his.

http://www.joebageant.com/joe/2010/02/mp3-file-of-joe.html

Just thought I'd share that with someone.

[Name removed]

145. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Catherina]

149. Point well taken n/t

[KoKo]

293. Nice Link...Thanks! n/t

[TexasObserver]

36. People who expect not to find disagreement here should lose that expectation.

Your post comes down to your unhappiness that others don't agree with you. It is the expectation that others should agree with you which produces your unhappiness. Give up that expectation and reading DU won't be so painful.

I detest the weak writing of many who start poorly conceived threads and are indignant that others find such threads lacking.

I expect to see poorly written OPs by thread starters who think their every thought should be the topic for a thread, and that's what I see every day.

[patrice]

39. Curious here, you don't see any contradiction in what you have just said?

I offer this paraphrase:
"The fault is with those who _________________ (make certain assumptions) but in making this determination, I am an exception to any possibility of this fault."

[TexasObserver]

45. No, and if you're intellectually honest, you won't, either.

FYI - when you start your argument by making up quotes that fit your meme, you lose.

[patrice]

49. No contradiction in: If you disagree with me "you're (not) intellectually honest"?

That's pretty funny.

[TexasObserver]

54. When you make up quotes to "refute," it's not intellectually honest.

You made up a quote, and having made it up, proceeded to attack it.

[patrice]

58. You do know the definitions of the words "offer" and "paraphrase"?

[patrice]

62. Why are you mischaracterizing what I said as a quote? I paraphrased your logic.

[Caliman73]

105. I disagree

It does not come down to the OP's desire for agreement it is an appeal for civility. There is a marked difference. You can disagree and be respectful. You can agree and be an ass as well. Passions are sometimes inflamed and that is understandable, but there are many here who are disagreeable whether or not you agree with their position.

[mfcorey1]

42. Do not leave. I surmise that there are those who have masked

themselves and a part of Dick Armey's group have somehow sneaked into our beloved site. They sometimes raise their heads manifesting real deep negatives. So. that will be two of us who will be flamed, but it is okay. I still love DU and I still love and support the President of the United States. I also recognize that he has not always made the best decisions, in my opinion, but theN I am not privy to the information that he has. It is a damned if you do and damned if you don't job.

[southern_belle]

161. very good thought mfcorey1 about

"a part of Dick Armey's group have somehow sneaked into our beloved site". I think your right on!

[herbm]

255. I don't think Dick Armey gives a poop about DU or even knows about it.

It isn't as if what goes on here affects the rest of the planet all that much. What we are doing is trying to discuss ourselves into consensus and that is a hard thing to do. But it beats the alternatives of not participating or signing onto someone's manifesto.

The danger is if we leave all of our activism in this forum. The teabaggers got the way they are by refining themselves into a core group of believers who talk about the same crap in lock step everytime they meet and it has caused them to believe they speak popularly when they are more out of step the further they refine their cant.

It could happen here. Thanfully we don't all agree and the discuusion is lively and every once in a while we engage in a little navel contemplation to keep it real. Healthy every once in a while. stupid if done too often.

[donheld]

43. You have me confused as to what you want

IMHO there are two sides to DU.
1> Those who think we should just follow the Democratic Leaders regardless of what they do.
2> Those who have progressive ideals and fight for those ideals above and beyond what party leaders say and do.

I tend to run with the 2nd bunch. We here at DU are battling between the two sides.]

PS I've never, to my knowledge, listened to any of your radio anything.

[patrice]

53. Re 1> "regardless" is not true for some, so there are more than 2 sides to DU.

Re 2> The definition of the word "fight" is different for different people. For some it is ALL about arguing against everything, often whether they understand it or not. For others, it has to do with actual minute-by-minute productive behavior out in the real world context of our daily lives. So, again, I'd say there are more than 2 sides to DU and this assumption of what I know to be false dichotomies is one of the limitations upon MY (as in, "YOU are either with us or against us" - and - part of the in-crowd, cool kids who get all of the reccs and flattery here on the DU) freedom, and incidentally that of millions of others, that I object to here on DU, whole-heartedly.

[donco6]

63. Buck up. I'm sure SOMEONE will invite you to Prom.

You might just have to wait a little longer while the "cool" kids pair up.

[patrice]

68. LOL! Good One! But I gave up a LONG time ago. As they would say on HuffPo: F & F!

:rofl:

[stevenleser]

141. I've never met a #1 although many of the self described #2'ers feel like they can label people as

such. Everyone here has disagreed with the party in general and Obama in particular on SOMETHING.

I am a STRONG, STRONG supporter of Obama and his administration. Despite that, or regardless of that, I have had 3-5 substantive disagreements with things he has done and have called out the administration on those things. (For starters: Too slow progress on Gay rights, not withdrawing nearly promptly enough from Afghanistan, not using the government to directly create jobs and employ people)

That still is enough to get me called a cheerleader by the #2 crowd as it is described above.

IMHO, the people who self-identify as those in category #2 are the biggest problem here at DU simply because they describe people as "supporting Democrats regardless of what they do" despite the fact that this is not true in a single case. Because they engage in this inflammatory practice at the onset, it is impossible to have a civilized conversation with them.

[stevenleser]

142. I would also say that the self described #2'ers have very selective reading. See...

this http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=433x533155 for an example.

Despite the fact that, among Democrats who want a primary opponent for Obama, slightly more Democrats want a person to the right of Obama to challenge him, many of the #2'ers here selectively ignored that part of the study and jumped to the conclusion that 41% of Democrats want a more liberal/progressive primary challenge to Obama.

[southern_belle]

166. see post # 42 eom

[stevenleser]

171. Yup. I agree with it 100% n/t

[patrice]

199. Lots of "selective reading" goin' on. This could mean that DUers are stupid or up-to-something that

they are not being up front about.

I'm guessing the latter.

[treestar]

215. What black and white thinking!

It is practically worthy of right wingers. They see things in stark black and white like that.

It is not productive to dwell on where leaders do not do what we want. They cannot be the personal servants of each voter. That's just impossible. We have to support them against the Republicans or we will live with Republican elected officials. It is simply unrealistic to "fight" for ideals - there is nothing to fight with but to get on a soapbox. Well, the generality of the populace is not getting convinced.

[mahina]

299. Or you could also see it this way:

There are two sides-

1. People who think that the Democratic party is our best hope to move this society in the right direction, in spite of the flaws of individual candidates and office holders, vs.

2. Those who are content to throw rocks at anybody trying to actually get anything done in the real world, who prefer their imaginary perfect candidates and office holders.

[Skittles]

300. absolutely wrong

The Democratic Party doesn't mean SHIT if it doesn't include REAL DEMOCRATS

[mahina]

301. Let me ask you this. Do you serve in your state party?

Do you write and vote on the resolutions, and adopt the platform?

I am a real Democrat, and I do that. I know what it means to me, exactly, to be a real Democrat, and it's this: do you or do you not uphold the platform of the Democratic Party of Hawaii? http://www.hawaiidemocrats.org/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=104&Itemid=164

What does it mean to you to be a real Democrat? How do you define that, exactly, and how do you share that definition? How do you know who does and does not meet your definition of a 'real' Democrat?

I am really sincerely interested in the answers to these questions. We have a process for defining Democrats every two years, within the party. What is your process?


2010 Platform

Report from Platform Committee
State Convention of the Democratic Party of Hawai‘i

Preamble

The abiding values of the Democratic Party are liberty, social justice, compassion and respect for the dignity and worth of the individual. These principles must always be protected. As the party of the people, we Democrats commit ourselves to these values.

The Democratic Party of Hawai’i holds that our party and our government shall strive for the following ideas and values:

1. Preserve and strengthen the future of agriculture in Hawai’i

2. Protect and restore the civil and human rights of each person

3. Support and provide for a strong economy

4. Provide an excellent public education for students at every level

5. Achieve energy sustainability

6. Protect and preserve Hawai’i’s environment

7. Support fair and just foreign policy that promotes peace

8. Provide high quality and affordable healthcare for every human being

9. Reform our government, supporting transparency in government and free, fair, and democratic elections

10. Support strong labor practices, good jobs and fair pay

11. Support military relations that honor and provide for all military personnel and veterans while protecting our aina

12. Support the rights of native Hawaiians and the preservation of native Hawaiian culture

13. Adapt transportation policies that improve our quality of life



ENVIRONMENT

The Democratic Party of Hawai`i believes that the preservation and restoration of our natural environment is essential. We support a sustainable society that utilizes the earth in such a way that future generations will benefit from the practices of our generation. We support the restoration, preservation, and protection of our native ecosystems on each island. We believe in integrated approaches, practices, and support public policies that create and maintain a sustainable way of life in Hawai’i.

We believe in supporting best management practices in sustaining our environment and in increased citizen involvement. We support programs that encourage sustainable clean, efficient, creative and environmentally friendly modes of transportation, recycling and waste reduction.

The conservation, preservation and restoration of Hawai’I’s natural resources are connected to the health and welfare of our people; therefore, we support the conservation and protection of our natural environment, which includes reducing our carbon footprint.



ENERGY

We must encourage the use of clean alternative fuel sources to include our public transportation systems. We must increase the use of public transit, telecommuting, car and vanpooling, ridesharing, biking, walking, and other forms of transportation thereby reducing traffic congestion and air pollution. We must also urgently develop the use of a variety of cost-effective energy providing systems, encourage transit-oriented development, and support tax breaks to renewable energy companies.

We support energy independence, self-sufficiency, affordability and reliability for Hawai’i through the development of renewable alternative energy sources. Specifically, we need to support policies that foster the development of energy production methods that de-emphasize carbon based fuels and promote renewable sources such as wind, solar, wave, geothermal and Ocean Thermal Energy Conversion (OTEC).

AGRICULTURE

Agriculture in our state must be preserved and its future strengthened. Sufficient prime agricultural lands must be maintained for the health, economic well-being and sustenance of the people. We believe in an integrated approach to agricultural innovation and sustainability. We encourage the development of ocean resources in order to achieve sustainability in our state.

This includes, but is not limited to, the adoption of the native Hawaiian concept of Ahupua’a, an integrated approach to land management. This could also include development of economic, land and ocean use policies that fosters sustainable crops both for local consumption and for export, policies to foster agriculture-related infrastructure at shipping points, and increased inspection to protect against invasive species and to encourage reduced holding times.

We will promote efficient and safe production of livestock, dairy products, poultry and eggs.

Recognizing the importance of the ocean as a life-sustaining resource, we must protect its ecological balance while promoting the cultivation of ocean resources as a step toward greater self-sufficiency.

To ensure wise use and equitable distribution of our precious water, we must stress water conservation and alternative patterns of water treatment and consumption such as the use of recycled water for irrigation.

NATIVE HAWAIIANS

Native Hawaiians are indigenous peoples of Hawai`i and deserve a just relationship with the state and federal governments. We support recognition by Congress of native Hawaiians as indigenous people as provided by the U.S. Constitution. Such recognition will begin the process for native Hawaiian self-determination consistent with federal policy extended to other indigenous peoples of the United States. We support na kanaka maoli right to self-determination. We are committed to the support of native Hawaiian agencies, organizations, and programs that increase the quality of life for kanaka maoli. We especially value our host culture that has allowed diversity to thrive.

ARTS AND CULTURE

Our community is enriched by the encouragement of visual, musical, dramatic, cinematic arts and diverse cultural activities that communicate both a regional and universal vision. Through multi-cultural and multi-generational participation in the arts, we strengthen our ohana, promote tolerance, and add vitality to the economy through cultural tourism. To this end, we support sufficient public funding for the arts, individual artists, arts and cultural organizations, and educational enterprises. Such activities provide a definite public good for all of our citizens and for our community as a whole that is not available through private efforts alone.

EDUCATION

We recognize the importance of a strong pre-kindergarten through higher education system of public education as the foundation for a thriving economy and an engaged and knowledgeable citizenry. We need to re-think the structure of our educational system. We need to reform and upgrade our public schools and create a flexible education system.

We support the prioritization of our resources towards providing quality education and library services to every student regardless of learning capacity in an environment conducive to the learning process. These resources should be made available at every level, from pre-kindergarten through higher education, including life-long learning, and should provide autonomy of the relevant educational institutions.

Educational policies should also include cultural learning, the arts and physical education so that we may preserve our health and rich cultural history. We need to ensure that our students are safe in our schools, free from bullying and discrimination, to include but not limited to, disability, gender bias, weight, ethnicity, sexual orientation, gender identity and/or religion.

We support the strengthening of our early childhood educational programs and the establishment of life skills education throughout our academic careers.

We support independent funding for the Department of Education. 3

Education shall be respected as a valuable resource and those pursuing a profession in education shall be compensated with a competitive wage based on national standards while taking into consideration the state’s cost of living.

We cannot support the practice of unfunded mandates from the federal government such as the “No Child Left Behind Act.”

HEALTH CARE

Access to health care is a basic human need. Our citizens and visitors have an inherent right to quality health care that meets a high standard. The state legislature should take all appropriate steps to create and support a health care system of public, for-profit, and non-profit hospitals and other medical facilities that follow best practices to enhance and protect and preserve life.

We support the development of long-term care financing solutions, better pay and working conditions for all health care providers, parity of mental and physical health coverage, and appropriate regulation of health care delivery systems. We also support the development of empirically validated prevention programs targeted at major public health issues.

We support national healthcare reform via single payer universal healthcare. We also encourage the inclusion of a public option in the current national health care plan.

We cannot support the provisions that continue the practice of denying women coverage for abortion services. Access to these services should not continue to be denied to women who most need these services.

GOVERNMENT AND POLITICAL REFORM

We believe in a government that will adequately, efficiently, courteously, openly, ethically and fairly administer to the needs of the people. We support the integrity of Hawai’i's voting process with a fair, voter-verifiable, fully transparent and auditable voting system. We must ensure the security of our electoral process with regard to electronic infiltration and manipulation.

We also support enforcement of sunshine laws and transparency in legislative and administrative sessions and meetings that discuss and make policy. This includes the protection of funding for the televising of public hearings at the State and County levels, as well as the funding of the public access room at the legislature.

We support enhancing disclosure of independent political expenditures in the wake of the U.S. Supreme Court’s decision in Citizens United, which struck down the ban on independent expenditures by corporations in federal elections and which has called into question similar bans on independent expenditures in state elections. To that end, we support legislation that would require corporations that make independent political expenditures exceeding $1,000 to register as independent expenditure committees and to disclose the recipients and amounts of such expenditures. We further promote the practice of public financing for all state elections. We also support a fully funded elections office and the return of responsibility for the election process to the office of the Lieutenant Governor.

We support restorative justice that repairs the harm caused by criminal behaviors and reintegrates the offenders as contributing members of society.

We expect all elected officials and government employees to maintain the highest ethical standards. Therefore we oppose revolving door policies that undermine the integrity of government.

HUMAN AND CIVIL RIGHTS

The inherent dignity and equal and inalienable rights of all human beings are the foundations of freedom, justice, and peace. We support affirmative action, the full implementation of the Civil Rights Acts of 1964 and 1990 and the Americans with Disabilities Act of 1990.

We support full equality and non-discrimination with respect to duties, benefits and responsibilities regardless of actual or perceived sexual orientation and gender identity.

We believe in women's equality and right to privacy, including but not limited to equal access to reproductive services and care, shelter and counseling for victims of domestic violence, and the right of rape victims to emergency contraception in the emergency room.

We support the rights of the Lesbian, Gay, Bisexual, Transgender and Intersex community to equality before the law, including the right to equal relationship recognition, such as that set forth in House Bill 444 relating to Civil Unions.

LABOR

We believe in efforts to build and retain a qualified workforce in Hawai’i. We believe that workers are entitled to organize and to bargain through their unions.

As the party of working men and women in Hawai'i, we work to protect labor rights and social security; to institute fair labor practices, fair pay, equal pay for equal work and fair taxation; to protect employees' rights to organize and bargain collectively with their employers; to oppose the outsourcing of Hawai’i's jobs; to promote employment opportunities and sustainable growth; to assist the economically disadvantaged and advocate for sound trade and economic policies; to build our workforce for jobs in emerging technologies, in green industries, in renovation, and in green construction so that their jobs are not dependent on ever-expanding real estate development.

We believe that workers need to be safe and free from any form of discrimination, harassment or abuse in the workplace. We seek legislation that will achieve these goals.

We seek programs that prepare people with disabilities for independent and productive lives. We are committed to the elimination of glass ceilings that prevent women and minorities from advancing to the highest levels of government, education and business.

TRANSPORTATION

We recognize the necessity of providing a safe, efficient transportation infrastructure. We endorse efforts to promote less reliance on imported fossil fuel and to support energy-efficient methods of transportation. Therefore, we support county, state, and federal efforts to provide more efficient and punctual methods of public transportation, to include but not limited to: sidewalks, pedestrian crossings, bicycle paths and lanes, mass transit, highways, airports, and ferry systems. We support the allocation of resources including public funds to address all necessary transportation issues.

We encourage efforts to provide better vehicle and pedestrian safety.

HOUSING

Housing is a basic human need and we believe that adequate, accessible, affordable, and safe housing should be available to all residents of Hawai‟i. Affordable housing that is fair in proportion to individual income is the basis of prosperity for our citizens and stability in our economy. Recent and past real estate bubbles have fueled disproportionate rent increases, a key contributor to homelessness. Therefore, we support efforts to promote truly affordable housing for all citizens who rent.

We also need economically affordable home ownership. To this end we support policies which re-think the current formula to determine “affordability” as this formula puts both rentals and sales out of the reach of most working families in Hawai`i.

We support circuit breaker or other relief to ensure that senior citizens are not taxed out of their homes.

We believe in the concept of “Housing First” to develop affordable, stable housing and support services to break the cycle of homelessness for people with the fewest housing options.

ECONOMIC DEVELOPMENT/REFORM

We believe that government plays a vital role in nurturing and regulating our economic system. We believe that private and public employers, as responsible members of community, by providing good jobs and fair pay and benefits, are essential for economic expansion, diversification, innovation, and entrepreneurship. We re-affirm our commitment to a progressive tax structure and will work to re-establish a system based upon “ability to pay”.

Availability of financial support and a capable educated people are critical to our economic expansion and diversification. The management of businesses should be ethical and responsive to the community with transparency for investors and shareholders guaranteeing sound, healthy management. Innovation through the generation of intellectual property should be the goal of our economic diversification. We support the continuing protection of intellectual property developed in the state of Hawai`i.

We need to simplify government processes to encourage beneficial business development. We maintain that non-confidential state and local government databases should be integrated, as appropriate, to promote efficiency in the administration of government and government agencies.

We need to give priority to the development of “green” sustainable industries and business. We need financial literacy and asset building programs to strengthen our ohana. We need to pursue relationships with the information technology industry. We need to invest in world-class higher education to stimulate our economic resources. We need to reduce our dependence on tourism, real estate development, and military. A diversified economy will help to create diversified jobs.

NATIONAL ISSUES

Many issues can only be addressed at the national level. As American citizens and Hawai‟i Democrats we have the right and the duty to express our views on these issues to our Congressional delegation, as well as to the representatives we send to the Democratic National Convention and the Democratic National Committee.

We consider it imperative that our national government re-establish regulations and guidelines assuring that financial institutions operate fairly and transparently, and that they do not jeopardize the larger public interest in pursuit of their private gain. We endorse the principle that if such institutions are “too big to fail,” then they are too big. We support the enactment and vigorous enforcement of laws that penalize those corporations (and their executives and directors) who have defrauded the public.

We believe that private ventures that may potentially endanger the environmental security of the planet should be closely and firmly regulated and monitored in their activities by the Federal Government. The Federal agencies responsible for such oversight must be adequately funded and staffed and must also receive appropriate and expert public oversight. The Gulf oil spill is the most compelling case in point.

We support Federal initiatives, both from Congress and from the Obama administration, that would mitigate the catastrophic cultural, economic, and environmental damage created by federal policies on globalization.

We condemn the deeply flawed process by which our Government has decided to use our military forces in acts of preventive war.

We ask that federal policies that violate the U. S. Constitution and/or international law, many of which were initiated by the previous Republican administration, be reexamined. Where they are found to be detrimental to our civil rights, and to human rights in general, and unless they are clearly essential to prevent clear and present danger to our national security, we call for their abolition.

INTERNATIONAL AFFAIRS

We support a foreign policy that respects Constitutional process and rights, honors human dignity, promotes adherence to international agreements, and integrates diplomatic, economic, military, and cultural policies. We support a fully funded, prompt, orderly and complete withdrawal of all U.S. troops and military contractors from Iraq. We oppose measures that compromise full withdrawal and endorse diplomatic efforts with all parties in the region. We believe that war should be a last resort but, when deemed necessary, should occur only within the confines of international law and international cooperation.

U.S. MILITARY AND VETERANS AFFAIRS

The Armed Forces in Hawai’i and their families sacrifice to serve and defend our country and to help us in time of need. Hawai’i should honor their service by strongly supporting the best possible care of wounded and disabled veterans. We therefore support efforts to keep our Veteran’s Hospitals fully funded.

We honor the service of all of our military members. Therefore we support the immediate repeal of the “Don’t Ask, Don’t Tell” policy.

We support the efforts of our Congressional Delegation to extend benefits for our Reservists and National Guard who have suffered brain injury and/or PTSD. We support efforts to protect our troops from sexual predators who commit sexual assault and command rape within their service branches and support specialized treatment for victims of such crimes.

We oppose war profiteering and the privatization of combat through employment of paramilitary contractors, especially the award of no-bid or sole source contracts. We support the protection of our „aina against destruction by military use.

TECHNOLOGY

We recognize that the responsible use and development of technology in all its manifestations offers immense potential for our community, including institutions of higher education and business sectors. We encourage synergistic research, development, commercialization and educational programs to promote technological proficiency and innovation. In particular we support Science, Technology, Engineering and Math (STEM) initiatives in our public, private and charter schools as these prepare the next generation to address the needs of our state. We also support programs that facilitate incubator, i.e. start-up, opportunities for new and promising technologies, and encourage the local retention of our intellectual resources.

IMMIGRATION

We believe that our nation should have a fair immigration policy that recognizes the diversity of our country and the contribution that immigrants make and have made in the sciences, arts, and culture. We support an immigration policy that provides a reasonable and timely path to citizenship for immigrants who follow the rule of law.

We oppose racial profiling, and encourage policies that avoid the militarization of our borders or that would deny education and health and human services to immigrant children. We need to ensure that immigrant children, whether their parents are documented or undocumented, are treated with fairness and respect in our schools and in our healthcare system.

With respect to immigrants who are illegally in our nation, we recognize that most are simply looking for a better life for their families. We support a national immigration policy that holds employers that violate immigration law accountable and provides penalties proportionate to their responsibility.

[Skittles]

303. LOLOL

gawd, I KNOW HOW REAL DEMOCRATS SHOULD BEHAVE. I also know that what we have now is FAR FROM WHAT REAL DEMOCRATS SHOULD BE.

[mahina]

306. I know you know what you think. By what mechanism do you suppose we as Democrats would come to any

kind of an agreement about that, without doing the work?

Do you do the work?

[Name removed]

44. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Poll_Blind]

47. Six or so sentences for you to consider and which you must read carefully and understand.

NOTE: Anyone can join Democratic Underground. They can claim anything. Democratic Underground gives no warranty that the people with which you interact on Democratic Underground are Democrats or even Progressives. They may be Republicans, other political agitators or merely the mentally-unstable, heavily intoxicated or deranged personalities whose behavior is best described as "shit-stirring assholes".

Furthermore, reading the first two sentences in the above paragraph, realize that their irrational, inflammatory or destructive behavior may appear to be supported by other individuals or even the bulk of respondents to a given post. However, always applying the above paragraph to certain phantasmagoric situations you may witness in given threads in our fora, you are best served by believing only those ideas that you agree with to be real and the rest, highly suspect.

PB

[blue neen]

80. Perfect explanation.

:yourock:

[demwing]

50. Part of the team

part of the ship

[patrice]

59. That depends upon the relative freedom of the individual, including yourself, so that

could be you and if you are absolutely 100% convinced that it isn't, aren't you just enslaved to, dependent upon, whatever it is that makes you think so?

[TayTay]

51. Because change is hard to do

Change is difficult, unlike what the conservatives do, which is maintain a status quo. We naturally have the kinds of debates that they don't.

[patrice]

65. Thank you for this reminder. This is what the word Liberal, i.e. Free, means.

:hi:

[Name removed]

52. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Catherina]

55. Is this linked somewhere else? So many views and so many quick recs

This has more views than some of the top threads here that were started long bebore this thread. It's very odd.

[MineralMan]

67. Sometimes a thread title catches the attention of browsers on

this forum. Unless you have some evidence of what you're claiming, I can't see the point of your complaint. What is it that you're trying to say? I found this post on the Latest Page. The number of views it has comes from the number of people who clicked on the thread, wherever they encountered it.

[Catherina]

70. What is it you're trying to say? And why so defensive? I asked a question

and explained why I asked it. Why so defensive? :shrug:

[MineralMan]

72. Huh? I'm not defensive at all. You made a statement.

I responded to it, telling you how I arrived at the thread. Why do you think there are links to this thread in other places? The fact that it's on the Latest Page is plenty of link enough, I'd think.

I post OPs sometimes. Some get lots of views. Others get few views. I always assume it's the subject of the thread that causes that. People are interested in whatever they're interested in. :shrug: right back atcha.

[sabrina 1]

278. Funny you did not ask those above accusing people who disagree

with them of being infiltrators from Dick Armey's army. Does that bother you also? As a matter of fact I believe it is against DU rules to make such sweeping accusations against DUers, yet you had nothing to say about it.

Consider this me objecting to those baseless claims. Someone disagreeing with you does NOT mean they are part of Dick Armey's army, don't you agree?

[JTFrog]

138. What a ridiculous thing to think.

Unless one is used to rallying support off-site or something.

:shrug:

[southern_belle]

168. maybe because a lot of people agree n/t

[Greyhound]

56. Yes, those who can't agree with you are "losers" with their heads up their asses.

You define the schism.

when you accept your opponents premise, you always lose. Someday those that agree with you will get that, maybe...

[Ichingcarpenter]

69. Those that don't agree with me

usually have come around after a few years when my observations have
become apparent, but cultural, political and sociological paradigms are hard to step over.
I've seen the depths of our 'Will' and 'Pitts' do that over the years

I recommended this thread because of the discourse it might reveal
Sarge is OK


On Edit... I don't post that much either and use to be in the top ten recommended or nominated threads for years .. plus won numerous DUzys every week.

I hope America Wakes up...... something is very wrong
"Mr. Jones'

[Greyhound]

100. I would only add that pretty much everything is very wrong. n/t

[Ichingcarpenter]

111. All I wanted was a bone to chew on

but I never expected it would have to be my own.

[patrice]

132. +1 LOL!!!

:rofl:

[patrice]

133. Do we stull DU DU-zzys?

[Ichingcarpenter]

143. That aphorism

to me could be used

in a lot of ways these days...... I do think its an original aphorism but who knows?

I think the Greeks said it once.....



I'm no William Pitt..... but I do have my gift

Social Security?..... throw me a bone
Gitmo..................throw me a bone
End the Wars? throw me a bone
DADT...........
throw me a bone
Banks and Corporations

The list goes on

[patrice]

164. I'm with you, IChingcarpenter. No answers here, but stick together and get out there and

work your ass off for your issues.

[JTFrog]

151. Nope.

And the new DU certainly doesn't deserve them.

[DevonRex]

288. No.

The man who did them won't do them again unless something changes drastically. His wife is berated here every time she posts, so it's quite understandable that he isn't pleased. And neither of them come here anymore.

[donco6]

60. No follow up at all?

Curious.

[donco]

61. Agree a hundred percent

with what you have said sarge.
:thumbsup:

[Scurrilous]

64. K & R

:thumbsup:

[LearnedHand]

66. K&R It's the incivility that makes it hard to hang around here for very long

Sarge, I don't agree with everything you said, but I totally get the sentiment you're expressing. I've been a member since early 2003, and we always were a very very smart, very very funny group of people. I hold some of the funnier nicknames and ways of saying things very dear to my heart, and my collection of bookmarks is full of the funniest exchanges I've ever read (tears streaming down my face), or the most deeply insightful and thoughtful discussions of difficult, complex issues. For certain, we always disagreed over many things, sometimes heatedly. But most those disagreements were a hell of a lot more civil and respectful than they are now. And people seemed to alert more quickly over incivility back then. It's very disheartening to see the quickness with which threads now degenerate into rudeness, sniping, and sarcastic comments. It reminds me of how in public life in general, it is suddenly de rigour to be rude to people in public.

Sorry if this sounds like I'm scolding. I'm totally not, and I love you all for the anchor to sanity you were during the nightmarish *Bush years. I do wish, however, that we focused much more on the funny, insightful, and intelligent, no matter how much we disagree with the CONTENT of someone's post. It's easy enough to find the rude and the snarky in the MSM and at the local Walmart.

Edited to K&R

[Bluenorthwest]

71. Putting aside the name calling bullyism

Let's talk about why you demand that a political Party be like a 'team' or some platoon or something. Why is that the model, and who elected you to promote that model with aggression?
I say it is not a team, it is an ensemble. Tell me why I am wrong. Explain the difference between the two. If you can not, I'd say you started yelling and name calling a bit prematurly. I don't think you have even considered your terminologies, you just wanted to lash out.
A team has the same goal posts. The DNC opposes my goals for equal rights, becaue of the dominate religious superstitions, and the rest of the heterosexualists accept that. They hold the coats. Then if they get flack for it, they call people 'losers' and such.
Ensemble vs Team. Discuss. Or just call people losers for unity.

[Township75]

73. You could have done a better job than that shitty post for your last one.

we aren't losing anything here.

[moondust]

74. Grow thicker skin.

Or use the "Ignore" and "Hide" functions.

[ecstatic]

76. kr. I feel exactly as you do. nt

[Jakes Progress]

77. I got stuff on my chest too.

My rant concerns those who keep blaming the Democratic wing of the Democratic party for last election's losses. The defenders of right wing actions by the Democratic party are the reason we lost. I've surely been guilty of flaming back at those who call progressives names, but I only give what I get. You want to blame me for Democratic losses and you are going to get an argument. You call me a right wing shill and you are going to get flamed.

For my part I have to ask how the go-along-to-get-along folk can live with themselves by supporting things the Democratic party never was meant to do. If we all just smile and pretend that everything is okay, we might as well just give everything to the republicans. Stop complaining about finding fault. Should we just ignore fault? Aren't we being hypocritical if we jump on republicans for something and then don't when a D does it? Sure the republicans all seem to be together. Who wan't to be as hypocritical as that?

I truly believe that the reason we lost last time was because we got lumped in with the War machine and Katrina bumblers. This administration has never gone after the war criminals and never wanted to put any blame on the people who did this mess. No wonder this administration gets conflated with the same old Washington power group in the minds of the electorate.

Should we be decent about this disagreement? Sure. But to say that we shouldn't disagree vigorously for our principles seems to be the sub-text to many of these threads that bemoan the lack of Democratic nice-nice. I would like to see the WH be as not nice to the republicans as they are to many of their supporters. I think the country would too. That's why we won in 2008.

[defendandprotect]

210. Nice post -- and my own feeling is that these posts are always STFU ....

simply put, they don't want to see criticism of Obama -- I presume that also

means that they can't venture out into the rest of the world, either?

Look at what goes on here -- not only do they want to be protected from reality

here at DU -- they're also much of the time saying STFU to Michael Moore, Wm. Greider,

Tom Hayden, Keith Olberman, Rachel Maddow -- Firedog Lake -- on and on because they

can't handle criticism of Obama!!

NOT because they're upset that Obama has kept the wars going --

NOT because Obama made back room deals to preserve PRIVATIZED health care industry --

NOT because Obama set up the Cat Food Commission and is playing footsie with the likes

of Alan Simpson --

NOT because Obama keeps Guantanmo open --

NOT because Obama fails to come out to fight against DADT --

NOT because of Obama's lopsided views on wiretapping and FISA --

NOT because Obama is pushing drones flying over Pakistan which kill people almost every day --

NOT because Obama moved bail out scams for corrupt and criminal corporations into trillions

and trillions of dollars bankrupting our Treasury --

but because they just can't stand the "tone" here -- !!!

Think one of the posters here had the right idea -- a little sanctuary here at DU for those

who need to be protected from the actual news of the day - !!


:eyes:



My apologies that this rant landed on you!!!

:)

[sabrina 1]

281. Good post, Jakes Progress, I agree with you completely.

[Swamp Rat]

78. How's it going over there in Mississippi?

:hi:

Our seafood is still as poisonous as ever post-BO, as I recently saw a shrimp boat bring in a haul completely dripping in crude oil and dispersant, and post-Katrina problems remain (i.e. our water supply in New Orleans was recently deemed too dangerous to drink for a couple of days because of high levels of fecal coliforms after a power outage).

:hug:

[pacalo]

83. Hey Swampy (& Sarge!)...

I noticed before Thanksgiving that Winn Dixie was selling oysters from Washington state. I bought one pint (@ $3 off) -- they were much larger oysters than those found in the Gulf, & were a golden color, rather than green, when I quartered them.

For Sarge: :hug:

[Swamp Rat]

84. merci beaucoup!

I'll check it out ASAP!! :9

[Mimosa]

208. Swamp Rat, what can we do?

I understand what you're saying. I'm now in Atlanta. But my heart I left in NOLA. Olese let me know if there's anything I can do to help. *hug*

[Ichingcarpenter]

88. I moved from Texas to Washington State and the seafood

taste improved immensely because of the clean water
and eco system

I have known east coast seafood, Florida seafood, Gulf seafood, Hawaiian and Greenland and Northwest coast sea food is the best



I had worried about the Gulf for years because of the contamination from the Mississippi valley
water structure.

When you are eating bottom feeders.... you need to be careful even if you are not Jewish.

[pacalo]

96. The plumpness of the oysters was impressive.

I was concerned about the color inside being different than what I've been used to seeing. Instead of the usual green color, I saw a golden color. My husband said it was probably due to a different diet, similar to your opinion. They looked great & smelled great, so I used them for my oyster/rice dressing. A holiday dinner isn't special without it. It's so delicious -- & was my best batch ever!

[herbm]

256. I've heard they are farmed.

[KoKo]

198. That's Good for You....But, what if "Coming to You Soon" is what happened in the GULF?

We are ALL IN THIS BOAT...and Seafood Lovers are having ever decreasing OPTIONS. First it came to New England, then to the GULF...and NOW IT MOVES ALL OVER OUR WATERS...OUR FISH ARE SICK OR DYING ...or CARRY DEATH FOR THOSE WHO EAT THEM.

FARMED FISH? Check out Web Sites on "FARMED FISH" if you THINK you are SAFE!

I'm a born and bread native of SC where Shrimp and Oysters and all kinds of fish were pure and fresh when I grew up... But, I'm considered "OLD and OUT OF THE WAY" by most DU'ers..but, really it wasn't tha long ago........REALLY!

[bluescribbler]

284. There is a big difference between shellfish farming and fin fish farming

Fin fish are typically enclosed in pens, like the one in the image below. These pens can get very crowded, can breed parasites, and can pollute the surrounding waters.

Shellfish farming, on the other hand, relies on many different techniques. The image below illustrates one method. The seed oysters are placed in baskets, basically open crates similar to lobster traps, and are left to mature in the water. http://www.scienceimage.csiro.au/index.cfm?event=site.image.thumbnail&id=729&viewfile=f&divid=EM
One significant difference between shellfish farming and fin fish farming is that fin fish need to be fed. In the case of salmon, it takes 4 pounds of feed, typically smaller fish like anchovies or sardines, to produce a pound of salmon. Shellfish take their nutrition directly from the water surrounding them, dining on plankton and the like. I have seen on evidence that shellfish farming harms the environment in any way, or that farmed shellfish are in any way inferior to wild shellfish. To the contrary, PEI mussels seem to me to be superior because there is no sand in them.

[KoKo]

228. It goes on and on...I dread the coming years..

Growing up in Coastal SC and knowing even the Seafood there is compromised (you have to dig hard to find the stuff but the coastal waters have been polluted by manufacturers and military for decades..but the states don't want to fess up up about how bad it is.)

But...my love of where I grew up causes me to cry in my heart about it.....What has been lost...and the "cover up" that allows folks to eat stuff they shouldn't ...or get it from polluted fish farms from Viet Nam (sigh) or Taiwan.... Big Fat Shrimp...sold as "Farm Raised" (yeah, Farm Raised) and the rest passed off as "Gulf Shrimp" (do you know WHERE THEY COME FROM?)

I grew up when you could eat it all.......Oysters, Crab, Shrimp...it was all good...or maybe it wasn't..but it seems better than what we deal with today.

Just be sure to buy "Iodized Salt" to get what we miss if we give up our Seafood...but still we all need that "Iodization" or at least that's what I read....Sadder than Sad.......

[the redcoat]

82. Wow, not even a month later and

people are already saying the GOP won control because the Democrats were infighting, and not because the GOP and tea party received huge, untold amounts of cash from corporations, and not because the largest news network has essentially been calling Obama satan.

That was quick.

[southern_belle]

170. +10000

[defendandprotect]

211. What was the figure ... $4 billion...??? And for every $ Dems got, GOP got 7 .....!!!

What's the figure on unions -- for every penny the unions give, the corporations

give a dollar? Should write this stuff down when I hear it -- !!!

Was shocked a few months ago to hear Brian Lamb of C-span feigning shock at how

much money the unions give to Dems!!

[lamp_shade]

85. K&R, Sarge. You speak for a whole lot of us. 72 recs so far.

[Catherina]

91. 72 votes total. 28 positive recs. The rest are unrecs. I'd rethink that statement. n/t

[patrice]

104. If it were the other way around would you make the same statement?

i.e. Is the DU a winner take all semantic environment?

If it is, it is only a question of time before it goes the way of NPR.

[lamp_shade]

144. 103 recs minus 60 unrecs = 43 net recs.

[lamp_shade]

287. Great post, Sarge.

[Beetwasher]

86. Yeah, Well, The Reality Is That DU Posters Can Now Make Contentless, Nasty Swipes At Obama And Dems

That do nothing to foster civil, constructive discussion. What it does is open the door to people whose only mission here is to sow discord and post vile, vapid smears about Obama and Dems. All they have to do is pretend they are "criticizing" from the Left. There's a clear conflict/contradiciton in the rules: we're supposed to have civil, constructive discussions, but people on one "side" are apparently allowed to make these nasty, contentless comments, which I'm not sure is particularly conducive to civil, constructive discussion.

But there it is.

[lamp_shade]

89. Exactly.

[patrice]

95. +1~ The definition of "freedom" has been limited to the freedom to be against the President, rather

than the freedom to also be for this President, i.e. the freedom to be either, for or against, or both, and/or neither.

"I seem to be a verb." Thank you, Buckminster Fuller

[CakeGrrl]

99. Exactly. People have been hiding their attacks behind the veil of "criticism" for a while. n/t

[leftstreet]

103. Tough shit

Members here with legitimate criticisms of this Administrations policies have jumped through hoops for two years attempting to respect this environment, comply with DU rules, and accommodate a minority of posters. By and large members have self-moderated and done an outstanding job.

A careful reading of Skinner's latest threads will show you that the same rules concerning civility and avoiding broadbrush 'vapid' 'vile' smears are still in place.

[Beetwasher]

108. Nahh, More Like Smelly Diarreah

That believes it's tough shit.

"A careful reading of Skinner's latest threads will show you that the same rules concerning civility and avoiding broadbrush 'vapid' 'vile' smears are still in place."

Oh, yeah, no vapid, vile smears on DU, like for instance calling Obama a wimpy, spineless corporate sell out. That's thoughtful commentary that's sure to invite constructive, civil discussion.

[treestar]

217. "tough shit" is not exactly "civility"

[political_Dem]

87. K and R. Thank you.

[Bluebear]

90. Garbage, crap, toxic, spewed...potty mouth.

:)

[CrispyQ]

92. A different perspective here:

Why do liberals fight with each other so much? Because it works.
by TayTay

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x9638757

Worth the read, imo.

[inna]

94. unrec for toxicity

[patrice]

97. -1 for toxicity.

[uppityperson]

101. k&r.

[kgnu_fan]

102. You know, it is good to take a rest and write when you have a good contribution for a discussion

[tabasco]

106. That's how we got Nixon.

Dems fighting amongst themselves.

HH Humphrey would have been an outstanding president.

But we got Nixon and eight years of getting reamed.

[KoKo]

184. WHAT IF? Honorable Dems are not seeing what they Worked For..and are Willing to Take Chance?

Maybe when "Everyone is UNDER THE BUS" there's not much left but to GO LEFT and LET IT ALL COME DOWN?

It might get to that with the BARRIORS BRAKING DOWN! And, it does seem to be that our Left has NO LEADER and "WITHOUT A LEADER" where does one go to express one's opinions? When all Else has Failed..there must be an OUTLET for EMOTIONS pent up for YEARS!

Just Saying.......:shrug:

[KoKo]

185. SOMETHING IS WRONG WITH OUR DEMOCRATS..FAIL!

Can anyone believe that we don't have BIG PROBLEMS going FORWARD?

How do we get OUR VIEWS OUT THERE TO AVERAGE AMERICANS? WHY HAVE WE FAILED in DECADES PAST?

WHAT'S WRONG WITH US? WE DO HAVE THE MESSAGE TO THE DISENFRANCHISED AND THE "MIDDLE DEMS" ...but we LOSE AND LOSE AND LOSE! WHAT IS WRONG?

[patrice]

202. Nixon was also engaging in Treason during the campaign, by doing a deal with the Viet Namese to pro

long the war against Johnson's peace initiatives, so as to make the Dems look bad and supposedly to deliver his own timely "peace" when he got into office, which he didn't, so the war went on for what? another 12-16 years? Thom Hartmann talks about this and plays the taped discussion between Johnson and Evertt Dirkson talking about what Nixon was doing and Johnson is asking Dirkson to do something about Nixon. It's Dirkson who uses the word "Treason".

[herbm]

257. Nixon: the EPA, Voting rights amendment, the first ERA vote, a proposed

health bill that went a lot further than Obama's origional proposal Teddy Kennedy as one of the sponsers, openning dialogue with China, the START agreement with the Russians to bring down numbers of nuclear weapons. He got suckered into continuing the Viet War the same way Obama has in Iraq and especialy Afghanistan, but all in all, like Clinton a good president with foibles.

[tabasco]

268. Nice try at foisting RW propaganda.

The Dem Congress forced all those laws through on Nixon.

It's sad to see so many gullible people believe the lies.

Yeah, "Nixon was great," LOL. I was fucking there and awake at the time.

[herbm]

270. "The President proposes, Congress disposes". Civics 101. Read before you opine.

That same Democratic Congress rejected Nixon's universal health care that he partered with Teddy Kennedy to introduce into Congress. Do you remember that? I was there, too.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:doc_Tropics/United_States_health_reform_under_Nixon

First raise in minimum wage, first freeze on banks since the depression, the list is too long, along with the tapes, plumbers etc you'll love, the things you don't know will surprise you

http://millercenter.org/academic/americanpresident/keyevents/nixon

[earth mom]

107. When so called dems tell us to march in lockstep & like how we've been sold FAKE hope & change

you are gonna see fireworks.

The people of this country have been scammed by both sides of the aisle and everyone should see that by now.

Sorry, but that's the cold hard truth.

I'm not gonna be sold crap and then be forced to say it smells like roses when it all stinks to high heaven.

No-that ain't gonna happen.

[patrice]

109. Name one thing that the Obama-haters CAN deliver on the issues, please. nt

[leftstreet]

112. I believe 'obama haters' is considered a pejorative term n/t

[patrice]

115. Fair enough. Let's make it "someone other than Obama in 2012" supporters, instead.

[earth mom]

114. You have the wrong avatar if you think Obama will EVER stop the Genocidal wars.

Quit lying to yourself.

Oh yeah, I forgot, War IS Peace in Obama's world. :eyes:

[patrice]

120. I don't think that. But I believe I have to deal with the world that we ARE living in, in order to

make any progress toward that.

2000 being what it was, if it hadn't been him, it would have been someone else perpetuating the same crap.

Taking even just one step toward more Peace would be greatly handicapped by handing SCOTUS over to those who rant against Socialism. It would be greatly handicapped by Medicare Reform being accomplished on the backs of those being cared for, rather than out of the fat CEO salaries that ALSO support proxy Wars. Even the smallest step toward Peace would also be greatly handicapped by the overwhelming downward pressure on wages and benefits against which Labor has NO recourse without the right to organize. Not to mention what a victory for the opposition to SALT will do to any chances at just a little more Peace. A victory that is all but guaranteed by cutting the President's voting base out from under him right NOW.

[earth mom]

122. Your post reads like gobbledygook to me. It doesn't make sense. It's like a twisted version

of War is Peace. :wtf:

Want Peace? Stop killing people because of their religion and to steal the natural resources in their country.

It's that simple.

[patrice]

124. Tell us HOW you make this happen, please.

[patrice]

131. I guess the difference between us is whether you/I see Obama as a symptom or as a cause.

I regard him as a symptom of the very same dynamics that say it is okay for ultimate violence to "happen" in the name of ________________________.

[sabrina 1]

282. Who are these 'Obama haters'? I have not seen a single post from

any DUer who is an 'Obama hater'. So could you please point me to anyone spewing hate on this site, I would be more than happy to comment on it. Unless you are referring to some rightwing board where such behavior towards Democrats is par for the course.

Or, it could by you are confusing differences of opinion with this president on certain issues, as 'hate'. If that is the case, then no need to answer. I will consider the statement to be pure hyperbole, not to mention a slam against Duers simply because they are not willing to go along with policies they disagree with.

[patrice]

113. I'd also like to see something about HOW it's going to happen, too, and again, thanks very much.nt

[earth mom]

116. Ask Obama since he won the bogus "Peace" prize. nt

[patrice]

121. It appears that I can expect that he's going to have more of a plan than any of his opposition has

revealed thus far.

You'll pardon me perhaps, if I chose to go with the percentages, on behalf of the TRULY dis-empowered and bereft in our midst.

[earth mom]

123. The plan is ENDLESS WAR. You can take that to the bank. nt

[patrice]

125. Please tell us how under-cutting him on SALT will help to end Endless War.&Thanks for your patience.

[earth mom]

130. You tell me. Or better yet, forget it. I don't have time to read more double speak. nt

[patrice]

137. I'm sorry, but that was your point, please correct me if I am wrong. nt

[treestar]

219. Most of the people in this country don't buy that

Where is the big third party? It appears progressives are not very effective. No wonder. Refusing to come to any consensus, insisting on lock step purity to ideals - no wonder little gets done and few voters are convinced.

Then these ineffective progressives sit back and blame others for not doing their job.

[NNN0LHI]

117. Banana fungus

That is what opened my eyes around here few years ago.

Started a thread where bananas weren't even the main point of the OP but I did mention them. Oh, boy. Didn't take ten minutes before the LaRouchie banana fungus loons descended on that thread. In force!

Right then and there I said to myself something is funny going on around here. And not the kind of funny that makes me laugh either. So I thought about it for a while and realized that being on an anonymous site like this one is, we have to expect LaRouchie crazies and just about every other flavor of assorted nut to be running around this place. We do.

So needless to say I didn't take a lot of what I read here too seriously since then. It was an eyeopening moment.

Don

[EFerrari]

119. Banana fungus?! Are you making that up, Don?

Omg.

:rofl:

[leftstreet]

126. Banana Fungus Liberation!

[Beetwasher]

152. "I didn't take a lot of what I read here too seriously since then "

You mean you actually DID take this place seriously at some point???? It must have been my posts! :evilgrin:

But seriously, yeah. Anyone who ever takes this place seriously is in for some serious heartbreak.

[KoKo]

182. You know...sadly...MANY OF US...DID TAKE THIS PLACE...Seriously...

WE SHOULDA KNOWN BETTER! SHOULD WE!

Yeah..........

[Beetwasher]

203. I Would Think It Was Kinda Obvious

But then again, I'm a self admitted asshole.

[KoKo]

206. Well...you and I have never quite seen any compromise...but you got this one in a way

that I might actually understand what you are saying with it...... sadly.

[Beetwasher]

209. Ok, If You Say So, But Honestly I Really Have No Idea Who You Are

Or any recollection of having ever spoken to you previously. But I'll take your word for it.

[KoKo]

212. lol's ...I've been around DU as long as you or longer... We Never Crossed Paths?

Why Not?

[Beetwasher]

213. We Probably Have, But Do You Expect Me To Remember Everything?

Yeesh. Such expectations. I can't even remember where the fuck I put my keys.

[KoKo]

220. I remember you...you don't remember me.......So Sad...So Bad.....

But...I do remember YOU... lol's...

[Beetwasher]

221. Glad I Made An Impression!

Sorry, you're name is familiar but I don't remember the contents of any of our discussions and whether or not we've seen eye to eye. Yes, I know your name, but as to content, sorry, not registering.

[KoKo]

224. We were just "ships passing in the night" for years.. We didn't see anything we agreed on...

That's why it's nice to have a dialog with you after all this time... Whatever...

Peace to You, Beetwasher. I'm sorry we missed each other all these years on DU..passing by. Says something about DU...that maybe we could do this and both not get the Granite Pizza. Ya' Think? GOOD THING?

[Beetwasher]

267. Sure, Good Thing, Why Not

we never agreed on anything? That's pretty incredible. I mean I have to assume you also think Bush was a total dipshit, so we've got that going for us.

[KoKo]

291. Indeed...we definitely have that one in common...

Bush was a DIP SHIT!

[KansasVoter]

127. Let us know how to act so we can meet your goals!

[patrice]

136. I think everyone should do that and, because each person claims that right, they also must yield the

same right to others, otherwise their claim to the right to tell others what kind of relationship they need is not valid.

In short, it's reciprocal and that is a good thing, so we need to make a conscious effort to assert it AND to defend it for ourselves and others.

[KoKo]

183. How CAN WE MOVE FORWARD...out of THIS?

:shrug:

[patrice]

188. We gotta figure out how to agree on something concrete to work on. I think it should be

Public Finance of Campaigns

+

Paper Ballots marked by hand and counted in public on a national public voting holiday that begins on a Friday and ends on a Tuesday. Even the TP-types in my family, and almost anyone I have ever said that too, everyone likes this idea.

We're goin' crazy chasing our tails; we NEED something concrete and useful to do.

[KoKo]

205. +1 FOR SURE...PUBLIC FINANCING OF CAMPAIGNS.......n't

[patrice]

207. Need to look around for an effective, hopefully national, group.

Will do.

There's at least one on FaceBook that I could ask about it.

[KoKo]

216. These are BOTH GOOD SITES working for CHANGE..!

the Second looks interesting...but, I'd check it further.

ACLU and COMMON CAUSE helped ups with Voting Rights here in NC..and we got some good legislation through.

Here's the links. Times Change and Leadership Changes...but here's TWO who've worked for "US" who've been working on Black Box Voting and Voting Rights since after "2000 SELECTION" which took the election away from Al Gore and awarded it to "BUSH II" who "STOLE IT!"

---------
Here's two Groups:

RADICAL LEFT WING WORKING FOR JUSTICE!
http://velvetrevolution.us/


RADICAL CENTRIST...WORKING FOR REFORM THROUGH GOVERMENT CHANNELS!
http://www.commoncause.org/site/pp.asp?c=dkLNK1MQIwG&b=4773589

[patrice]

240. Thanks very much, KoKo. Will check these tomorrow. Gotta take the dog for a walk and then

get to bed.

g'nite!

:hi:

[GeorgeGist]

140. Lack of leadership working it's wonders:

Divide and Conquer.

[red red red]

147. Thank you Sarge...

you have spoken for me - thanks!

[Liberal_in_LA]

148. k&R

[Number23]

150. Join the club, Sarge.

I don't see a team that can work together and see too many that just likes to find fault but when it comes time to step up they sit down.

You have diagnosed the issue perfectly.

[Fire1]

283. Amen. I agree with Sarge, totally. n/t

[EmeraldCityGrl]

153. Could you give a specific example?

Is there a post you could link to so I have an idea of what vicious is for you?

I spent a few years on a board that makes DU feel warm and fuzzy. I see where there
can be some hurt feelings and uncivil remarks from time to time but not to the degree
you describe.

Thanks.

[KG]

154. there's now a place where all the GoodDems can go

http://www.gooddems.com

your own little playhouse, where no 'bad' dems allowed. :rofl:

[southern_belle]

155. I'm with you Sarge

highly recommended :applause:

[southern_belle]

156. dupe

[southern_belle]

157. dupe - sorry

[Lucian]

158. You're the one spewing garbage.

So people who disagree with you are "losers" and should get their heads out of their asses? That's what I get from your incoherent rambling. So now we're not allowed to disagree with each other? Pfft. :eyes:

-1

[bluesmail]

162. I haven't read all the responses to your OP but the first thing that jumped out

was I wonder what other sites you read and like. Yes DU has changed, we all know that is Life. :evilgrin:

[Honeycombe8]

163. Ditto. I don't come here nearly as often, and it's declining more and more. nt

[slay]

165. I can not march lock step with Obama - I feel he has betrayed us

on so many levels. Afghanistan, real health care reform, DADT, continuing the patriot act, refusing to even investigate the WAR CRIMES of the Bush admin, I could go on and on. So that, in my opinion, is the problem. Our leader is not a uniter, he's a corporate shill who has sold out not only his base, but the American People as a whole.

But TO HELL with people like me right??? Those who actually wanted REAL change. I mean, it really helps unite us by saying "to hell" with people like me right... :eyes:

[L0oniX]

169. +1

[sendero]

180. You can't say that..

... that's "garbage".

Nothing is quite as pathetic as denial. There's a lot of it here. Obama is not doing jack shit for the middle class, for the troops for anybody but his oligarch masters. But some still hold out hope in the face of all evidence.

I guess hope serves a function. It makes a fine substitute for any constructive action and it gives some people a reason to say "rah rah for our team, we at least have hope".

[slay]

191. Exactly

while we sit around and "hope" for change and for things to get better - the rich and the CEO's on wallstreet and the war profiteers have had their best year ever! ugh. :(

[patrice]

193. Who said "to hell" with you? That's stupid. Ignore it. Don't let others rob you of your power with

their shit. Do your own game, not theirs.

The best way to get even with people like that ("to hell with you") is to make them 0. That's what they *H*A*T*E* the most, way more than anything else you could throw at them, all of which is what they actually want, to get a rise out of you and make you jump through THEIR hoops. Make anyone like that 0. They don't deserve you.

[KoKo]

222. Obama, to me...still seems a blank slate under what he's written so far.....So Far...Not so Good...

I'll give him another 6 Months...and hope he will be the "CHANGE WE CAN ALL BELIEVE IN."

After that.......Well...been here on DU since "STOLEN ELECTION 2000"...I can't wait anymore for CHANGE!

[L0oniX]

174. No guts ...no glory. The enemy are the rich machiavellian sociopath corporatist's.

We either fight them together or we will all go down the shitter together. Now is not the time to compromise or reach across the aisle. This is the time to save our country. If our leaders won't stick up for us then they also are our enemies. They will watch us all suffer and do nothing about it ...it's already happening. They are a bunch of rich sociopaths. We don't control our government and haven't for a long time. The corporations it represents control us. We vote for the smooth talker or the pretty face of an actor. Smooth talking and or pretty boy acting is not going to save our country. We've needed someone with guts who REALLY cares about our countries people for a long time. You can't expect anyone that's well to do to be for the lower class ...they don't fucking care and they never will! We need to quit voting rich bastards into office.

[TBF]

175. The only "game" I'm interested in winning is the one in which we

get rid of capitalism and try an economic system that is more equitable for the 99% of us who are not billionaires.

[slay]

194. Oh you nailed it!

capitalism is THE root cause of almost all of our problems. glad at least some people see it. :hi:

[patrice]

197. So, how do we learn how to form successful co-operatives?

Let's do it.

[TBF]

265. Is that your solution? Sorry, your baiting falls on deaf ears.

It is up to the proletariat to decide how they want to govern, not me (and certainly not you).

[defendandprotect]

181. No problem with WH's "tone" re liberals and progressives .....

just us folks who whine over Obama "back door" dealing away MEDICARE FOR ALL?

Yep -- what right do Democrats have to complain about Obama making corporate deals

to keep PRIVATIZED health care in place -- and to keep Medicare from negotiating

on drug prices!!

It's shameful -- and every Democrat should be calling out Obama for it!!

Bye -- !!

[NutmegYankee]

189. K&R

[HEyHEY]

190. I love how everyone is jumping on this guy

For merely suggesting we get along. Proves his point.

[patrice]

195. +1~

[KoKo]

201. BUT....Maybe "WE" just "LOVED HIM TOO MUCH!"

What If? What if we didn't look behind the kimono....To see what and where he came from, closely?

What If? :shrug:

[Bluebear]

230. Suggesting we get along by saying he sees "garbage" & "crap" "spewed" here?

Yeah, a real uniter.

[HEyHEY]

233. Are you not seeing that? I am.. all the time

[Bluebear]

234. One man's crap is another's...etc.

Point being, it was hardly a kumbaya-type OP :)

[HEyHEY]

235. True

In general it's rather amazing how liberals speak to each other on this thing.

[madmax]

247. You said it. nt

[JonLP24]

292. I have to say this

I think what he is saying, he wants us to agree with him more. He'll post an OP every now and then telling us all how wrong we are. And hey, sometimes I agree with him. For example, during the threads where the firefighters let a house burn because the man didn't pay his fire bill.

[Rex]

214. Solidarity seems to be lacking in our party.

Repukes have a certain unison because their brains are zombified. Nice rant, but even that won't help. People in power (not us little people) have to decide to WORK TOGETHER. Until then, we are all playing armchair QB.

[KoKo]

223. When our Dems we Worked for SO HARD...send folks out to call us "FUCKING RETARDS"

...well, then what do you expect?

[Rex]

225. Oh I agree totally on that point, one of the worst political moves

ever made. Not quite 'read my lips, no new taxes' level, but it surprised me at the timing.

[KoKo]

226. Yeah...the "Timing" before 2010 Elections and the Comments after really Sucked.....

Someone is not working on Political Messaging there in the WH.... It's really pretty dreadful stuff.

[Rex]

227. Well as a DFH and a professional lefty I took offense

yet voted straight ticket Dem...how do we get beyond this stage of the game is my question?

[KoKo]

304. Going to take a lot of work...and we need some leadership...because

some have been doing this too long...just hoping...and that didn't work out...so it's up to us...but without a LEADER or Influence that's STRONG... we will have to find other ways. :shrug:

[herbm]

258. Specificaly, who called you "fucking retard"?

[JTFrog]

263. No one.

But there is no stopping the fauxrage. EVER!

[herbm]

264. There IS a lot fury signifying nothing here. But it is worth the occasional gem.

[EFerrari]

229. Or, we work on stuff that is accessible to us.

We do things here that people can be proud of. Raised money for Alan and others, help distribute stories that are important, calls and letters. Just hashing out complicated issues so the stakes are clear and we can talk about them with some confidence is valuable, all by itself, even if we don't all agree at every point.

[Major Hogwash]

231. Send me your e-mail address first, okay? I want to interview you to get your opinions.

I was going to say something about the "coming together" portion of your post, but it's not as easy to do that in just one comment.
So, I was thinking maybe it would be more beneficial if we opened a dialogue up and I interviewed you to get your thoughts on this.
Then I write up a small 2 or 3 page article and then put it up here later in the opinion/editorial section of what you think about this or that or the other.

Whaddyasay, do you feel up to being interviewed?
I'm not sure if you're still in Arizona or in Mississippi now, so you could e-mail me and we could talk a little bit about it if you're not too busy getting treatment at the VA.
You have an interesting life story and I think your opinion about today's state of politics would make for fascinating reading.

[KT2000]

232. I am beginning to wonder

if the internet is not unleashing some kind of new aspect of human behavior.
When I read articles in our newspapers, including my local paper in a small community, there are often mean, cruel and angry comments that are posted. Sometimes individual comments are deleted and sometimes all comments have to be removed.
Anymore, politics, much of rooted in anger, is even related to articles about people dying or in accidents. Personal attacks, though always against the rules, are common. It just seems that many people are itching to fight with someone.

I wonder what is happening to people. Is it the anonymity of the internet, the need for release of frustration, a need to feel bigger for having hurt someone or is it just a prime opportunity to project ones' ego into the atmosphere?

The progressives have many issues on their plate - all of them important. But we should also be cognizant of the history of social justice. Many have gone before us and we are the beneficiaries of their efforts. If we don't crash and burn we can get together and work on out current social justice issues and get closer to realizing those goals.

[47of74]

237. Our local paper had to lock down the commenting feature

At one time our local paper tried a free hand with the comments section. That was until a white man was murdered by a black man during a fight. The comments got pretty nasty, with someone exploiting a flaw in the software to repeatedly post the image of a black man being lynched. To stop that the paper disabled the comments section of the web site for several days, and alerted law enforcement over what had happened.

They only allow people who have verified their information with the paper to comment now. Even with all that I don't spend much time commenting or even looking at the comments, because it's the same day after day after day.

[KT2000]

244. It is disheartening

to read the comments. I start to and wonder who they are and how close to me do they live!
It is scary.

[summerintx]

239. I wonder if it's catching?

ranting, ad hominem attacks, and ridicule that is…It seems like the Limbaugh-style put down has become all too common. There's a trend for people to fail to give one another the benefit of the doubt, to assume the worst, to "leap to convulsions." Anger that originally seemed centered around conservative political talk radio and its effects seems to be spreading to unrelated segments of society. Do you see that too?

I have been wondering whatever happened to assuming someone might have misspoken, been stressed out, had major worries or hurts, or any of dozens of other things that might be behind saying or doing something thoughtless. I've noticed this trend among co-workers and even in my church which has never been prone to that before.

I've speculated that perhaps there's a very destructive Zeitgeist spreading.

Civility actually matters. It's the lubricant that makes interactions pleasant or at least neutral, or unpleasant. There's been a vast increase in workplace violence from shoving to more fatal events. Researchers have found that each incident, at bottom, is triggered by incivility.

What do you think? Is it possible to set some kind of norms for online behavior that are enforced by the community - without us becoming uncivil ourselves? Or will those who want no checks on their freedom to do or say whatever they want however they want just keep on?

[KT2000]

245. That is the question I have too

On a couple blogs I have tried to interject something like "respect for others opinions" comments and that just sets off a new fight and more name calling. But I think DU can handle things OK with the alert button.

When I look at the FOX ethos of rudeness, they seem to equate their beligerence with "rightness'" and I think maybe that is spreading beyond their domain. Simply - it is selfishness, and that is glorified right now.

The only time I saw something work was in our local paper. Someone posted something ugly about someone who died. Another poster informed that poster that he was her uncle and she better knock it off!

Maybe we are like the young male elephants in Africa that were terrorizing villages. They stomped down houses and pushed over trees and scared the people. Someone realized that they were the offspring of male elephants that had been killed so they were without leadership. They rounded up some older male elephants and transported them to the site of the younger elephants. It took a couple hours for the youngsters to shape up and the destruction stopped.

I don't know if that is a lesson for us or not - but I like that story.

[Pacifist Patriot]

260. Social acceptability has been a force in evolutionary psychology for our entire human history.

When cheats are not rejected, liars are not scorned and a lack of civility shunned, I think we are creating a social environment that enables widespread unpleasant words and deeds. So how do we stop it?

[KT2000]

285. An individual basis

it is possible but otherwise I don't know. Your question was rhetorical but as a society we need to figure this out.

[patrice]

241. +1 Respect our differences and treasure our commonalities!

[Pacifist Patriot]

259. There has to be a psychology professor out there studying it somewhere.

I have wondered as well. The comments I see in response to articles on-line are often positively jaw dropping.

I think the issue of anonymity giving people a sense of freedom to speak their mind with a low filtering mechanism may be providing us with a truer insight into the human psyche. And it isn't pretty.

[Javaman]

236. Meh...

We all were due for one of these types of posts. We haven't had one in a while.

Well, so long. And when you come back, act as if nothing happened. Everyone does that. LOL

[lumberjack_jeff]

238. The reason they won, has nothing to do with "our" act.

Many of us who are "spewing garbage" are pissed at the people who cost us that election - the ones we elected.

Obama needs some rhetorical elbows thrown to make him wake up.

[patrice]

243. Absolutely agree. He needs SIGNIFICANT pressure. In order to accomplish that, we have to develop

leverage. We can't create leverage if we don't stick together and if we aren't productive somehow.

I'm horrified by the vote this month. I DO blame this profound FAILURE on our Dem leadership and I know first hand that there's a bunch of younger Dems who feel the same. But throwing a temper fit and taking it out on one another isn't going to get us even the remotest chance at anything that we want: End of the Bush Tax Cuts for $250K and up; Liberal judges on SCOTUS; Medicare Reform that protects the quality of care; Labor's right to organize; and Public Option Health Care - are the things that are closest to actually being on the table, so that's the stuff we should focus on to begin with and I would add Public Campaign Finance as an ongoing longitudinal effort.

Sacrificing elders and children by cutting our noses off to spite Obama's face, especially since there's NOTHING that can otherwise deliver anything on any of our issues no matter how passionate and strong our issue factions think they are, will just set us back on ANY goals for at least a decade. That is unless the goal is violence in the streets, in which case we'll just make that much more achievable. Something I would hate, no matter how much ideologues on both sides romanticize it.

[TBF]

286. The goal is not violence in the streets - but it is peaceful protests.

Unless y'all have done away the first amendment as well (I realize the 4th is long gone...).

[patrice]

289. AGREED. Massive. Committed. Long-Standing. Message-oriented action in the streets. nt

[cherish44]

246. Nasty and bitter people are everywhere

Yes even here. Don't bother engaging them and let them wallow in there own muck. There are plenty of people who aren't here to be surly assholes so talk to them!

[madmax]

248. What?

No surly assholes? I'm shocked! What did I miss? :evilgrin:

Agreed, we all need to lighten up on each other. We're suppose to be on the same team.

The only way we're going to see big change imho would be:

1. Publicly Financed Elections
2. Bring back Selective Service aka - The Draft, and watch how fast these wars end.

There will never be any change without PFE because we can not possibly raise the kind of money big business and special interests can to donate to their chosen candidates. All of them (Dems and Pugs) are begging for money from the day they win until the win again or lose. We're part-time work for them. Their main focus is on the big $$ men and what they want.

And when someone's young ass on the line you can bet they're going to take an interest in wtf is going on in the world and put down the X-Box or whatever the hell it is they're playing with these days, besides themselves.

whew... now where did I put the bp meds.

:rant:

[MadHound]

261. Irony, you're doing it right n/t

[robcon]

266. Another self-pitying, "I'm leaving" thread.

We used to get a lot of those. Thankfully, there have been much fewer recently.

[flyarm]

269. I see things quite the opposite as you ..and adamantly!

I believe no matter who is in office it is my responsibility under my constitution to ask questions of anyone in "MY' Government and demand things when they are wrong or corrupt.

"My Constitution" does not say my responsibility is over when MY PARTY is in office.
No quite the contrary.
In fact my constitution says I am their employer.

BY doing my job, that did not make some "win in the last election cycle", but those who lost did not do their job well enough to retain their seat, that we the people allow them to hold. Or , we the people wanted change in areas of the country where people do not feel they were being represented.

What lost seats was Democrats acting as republicans, and when people have the choice of half ass-ed Republicans in democratic clothing, they will chose the real republican every time. You only think people can be fooled, they can not.

For everyone posting here at DU , millions are not.

People vote their own circumstances. Not yours or mine.

We the people were ignored in our job losses, and the big boys of Wall street and Banks to big to fail were given all the help this Democratic congress and President could give them. While people lost jobs by the millions. While people were and are losing their homes ..some legitimately, many not. No aide came to the people. And you expect them to go vote for the Status Quo? That is rather naive and silly.

People see shit loads of money going to two Bogus wars, and they see Obama putting the man they hated under Bush back in Charge..wasn't Petraeus..."Betrayus" under Bush to most democrats? Do you expect Americans to forget that? And you want to blame this on people here at DU?
Sad you think people have such short memories.

I live in a Gulf State that saw Obama ignore the Gulf Spill early on, in the disaster. People were screaming for help and saw none come. But what they saw, when the help did come was , "OUR Coast Guard " turned over to the commands of BP a foreign oil corp and become an arm of that foreign Oil Corporation with the actions of the Obama Administration. We saw our Beaches turned over to BP a foreign oil Corporation.
We saw "OUR Homeland Security" Turned over to BP a foreign oil corporation. We saw our local medias being censored by Obama's administration. We saw our scientists silenced by this administration, scientists we on the Gulf have always admired and respected for giving us the truth. Now we saw such ridiculous science coming from our government , while our local scientists were telling us opposite stories.( I could go on and on listing what went on , but I won't here today.) Please do not blame that on DU, in fact I will go as far as to say, there was a certain element of DU trying desperately to censor those of us who reported what was being done and said in our communities on the Gulf. But let me repeat, millions of people who voted or stayed home in disgust in my state..and were effected directly by the BP gusher..that do not know wtf DU is.Nor do they care. They just know how their life was and is effected.

I know many many Democratic senior women who did not vote in my state. And in my state that is a huge Constituency. Because in my state we have one of the largest Senior Citizenship in the nation. Why did those women not vote? Because they had their primary votes taken away from them in 2008 and they are still very very angry about it. Did Obama reach out to these women?..no. Not then and not now. In fact many were called the "C" word by supporters of Obama and racists, and horrible names and told they were NOT NEEDED and NOT WANTED..so they stayed home ..many in silence and many very vocally. These were women who always donated, always volunteered , were always enthusiastic and were always counted on and could be counted on , that we have now lost, and nothing was done by the Obama admin to bring these women back. In fact I would say just the opposite has taken place. Then add to that how Irresponsible people in my state thought the Obama administration behaved through the worst Oil Spill in history. And how slow they were to help us.

It didn't help that just a couple weeks before this major Oil Disaster, Obama went against his own Campaign promise of no drilling off our coasts he did a total 360 and had a presser totally negating his campaign promise and that pissed off many many many Dem's in my state. Remember we democrats in the Election of 2008 in my state chanted at Palin " drill baby drill" in very negative connotations, to only see Obama spit in our faces and sign on to Drill baby drill. You may not remember it, but Democrats and environmentalists in my state sure as shit remember it! Many of whom have never come to DU , nor know what DU is nor care. But they vote and they vote in huge numbers..and many who stayed home election day this November.
Oh and many whom were called nasty names by Team Obama.

One can not continue to piss all over their constituency and then expect them to donate, volunteer and then show up to vote.

That has been true long before there was a DU. And it will be true long after DU.

In fact I will go as far as to say, I post much less here at DU for opposite reasons as you..and come here much less and have seen so many friends leave DU because of the thought police, and the attempt by many here to censor them.

[KoKo]

294. + 1 ...I saw that here in my state as well.. Southeast Coast. n/t

[JuniperLea]

295. Obviously, adamantly...

As if to illustrate...

Now I remember why I had you on ignore... I just cleared my list again... not sure why now.

[Scurrilous]

272. Kick

:kick:

[rainlillie]

273. Well said, Sarge and thank you for this post, I agree wholeheartedly.

[JackRiddler]

276. You'll have to do a lot worse than that to be banned.

It's not even certain who or what you're on about.

[JTFrog]

280. K&R!

[Evoman]

290. DU is just a website for me. It's not like we are curing cancer.

Why do people care so much? What I hate the most about DU is people whining about DU.

[JuniperLea]

296. Welcome to the war on Obama... eom

[Jack Sprat]

297. You must remember, Sarge

There are people posting on this site who are Republicans of all stripes of Red in them. They don't like Democrats and are here to foment trouble. This tactic has been uncovered on all Democratic forums. It's just a fact of life and there doesn't seem to be any way to circumvent their efforts. So naturally, they are being opposed and it doesn't surprise me that there is often rough rhetoric as a result. There are teapartiers, neocons, Palinists, and every other kind of conservative dropping in to drop contraversy.

[Scurrilous]

298. BTTT

:kick:

[xiamiam]

302. well ..we are united..mostly..but not totally

I come to DU to get news..latest events. There used to be more active pasticipation posts..DU this poll..call your congress people..sign this petition...watch this...and we did..so it was more cohesive because there was not so much party ideology. I cannot put party in front of principles and I dont really remember that position to have been so prevalent.

Of course we thought if we could just get the house, then we got the presidency, and both chambers..and what did they do with it?

Indict war profiteers? Create a good health care plan? Stop the wars? Help homeowners and unemployed?

No one wants to believe what is going down in this country..it's happening so fast, right in front of our eyes, that most of us have been walking around in shock and shaking our heads.

I'm 60..I've never seen anything like it.

The process of recognizing what is going on is not easy...and understandably avoided. That and misinformation..and then there are trolls..and teams of internet message managers who frequent several sites and attempt to sway the thread..

Those are the reasons I think things get difficult here. Once, I posted a thread saying I hate unreccers..which I do..and maybe it wasn't a nice thing to say ..but the post received the most vile bating responses. I've been here a long time, I hadn't seen that kind of behavior. I printed it out and noted the names. I try to avoid them. Just not my kind of folk.

The truth will set us all free..as well as honed intuition.

[KoKo]

305. You speak "TRUTH" and what you say needs a KICK..because there are those of us

who have been down the Path you speak of ...and we've seen little of what we "thought" we were working for come to fruition.

Well Said! And THANK YOU!

[yurbud]

307. there is a real, profound difference between progressives and the corporate branch of the party

the latter has far more in common with the GOP on many issues and will even vote with the GOP on crucial issues. Further, though the corporate wing is a minority, when Dems win, the corporatists ignore the progressive majority in their party.