Those that are sanctimonius about the things Wikileaks "revealed" place FAR too much trust

[Ken Burch]

in our foreign policy establishment.

The fact is, most of what goes on in secret among diplomats(especially OUR diplomats) is about keeping wars going and preventing the reconciliation of the various factions of the human race.

The secret deals are based on treating the majority of the citizens of the planet as expendable pawns.

They aren't about keeping US(by which I mean the ordinary people of this country)safe, let alone improving life for most of those who live on this planet, or about preventing conflicts from becoming wars. They don't care how many of us die. To them, our lives and the lives of the people of the world don't matter.

And until OUR foreign policy is based just as much as the rest of the world's is on ACTUAL negotiation and compromise, on actual respect for the needs of all, rather than just issuing ultimatums and giving other countries the choice between doing what OUR leaders want or getting invaded, there will be nothing positive about what ANY of our "diplomats" do in secret.

Face it, our diplomats aren't on the side of life or of people. They aren't ALLOWED to be. They work solely to get access to resources and markets for the corporations. And they cannot deserve to be trusted with secrecy.

[mediaman007]

1. That's it!

So that's why the wealthy and the corporations should pay taxes. The military and the state department are really just corporate pawns.

[Ken Burch]

2. You can't call them anything else.

They don't defend us, the people.

[abelenkpe]

4. It's also why we should discourage our kids from enlisting

but maybe that's just me?

[Ken Burch]

6. No, that's not just you.

n/t.

[flyarm]

11. NOOOO ..it is not just you!! eom

[BrklynLiberal]

8. Gen Smedley Butler was telling that exact same story a century ago!!!!!!!!

The state department and military were corporate pawns back then too..The names have changed...but the story is the same. It used to be United Fruit and American Sugar, and others..but the techniques and the goals were the same: to protect American corporate interests no matter what the cost..in money or lives.

[Ken Burch]

12. I know. Smedley Butler is one of my heroes

He spoke on the subject AFTER the leaders of our largest corporations had tried and failed to get him to lead a military coup against FDR.

[BrklynLiberal]

14. The story of that attempted coup is AMAZING..and it is incredible that it is

not as widely known as it should be.

Today, the coup would be instigated and managed by corporations....oops. ItIS being managed by corporations, and their stooges AKA the repukes!!!! It was instigated by corporations by the Powell Memorandum, and its aftermath.

[Ken Burch]

15. Here's a link to it

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Business_Plot

And also, the general's most famous quote about what the system made him and his fellow soldiers do in the name of "defending the country":

"I spent thirty-three years and four months in active military service as a member of this country's most agile military force, the Marine Corps. I served in all commissioned ranks from Second Lieutenant to Major-General. And during that period, I spent most of my time being a high class muscle-man for Big Business, for Wall Street and for the Bankers. In short, I was a racketeer, a gangster for capitalism.

I suspected I was just part of a racket at the time. Now I am sure of it. Like all the members of the military profession, I never had a thought of my own until I left the service. My mental faculties remained in suspended animation while I obeyed the orders of higher-ups. This is typical with everyone in the military service.

I helped make Mexico, especially Tampico, safe for American oil interests in 1914. I helped make Haiti and Cuba a decent place for the National City Bank boys to collect revenues in. I helped in the raping of half a dozen Central American republics for the benefits of Wall Street. The record of racketeering is long. I helped purify Nicaragua for the international banking house of Brown Brothers in 1909-1912. I brought light to the Dominican Republic for American sugar interests in 1916. In China I helped to see to it that Standard Oil went its way unmolested.

During those years, I had, as the boys in the back room would say, a swell racket. Looking back on it, I feel that I could have given Al Capone a few hints. The best he could do was to operate his racket in three districts. I operated on three continents."

[BrklynLiberal]

16. I wish I could rec your post..

[abelenkpe]

3. Indeed. nt

[Violet_Crumble]

5. Agreed n/t

[harun]

7. Fantastic interview on Democracy Now with Noam Chomsky

http://www.democracynow.org/2010/11/30/noam_chomsky_wikileaks_cables_reveal_profound

He points out how our State Department won't even TALK about Democracy in the Middle East. Wonder why the people their are pissed? That is why.

[flyarm]

9. I am a retired Flight attendant, I have flown internationally for over 20 years.

Now in my retirement I take some women as tour guide to Paris ..a few times a year.

I take them to one beautiful Hotel In Paris for drinks , as it is a beautiful Hotel..it is next to our embassy in Paris..If most Americans saw the behavior of our diplomats in the Bar areas and the Bar in the evening with their hookers...or I guess I should say, their high price escorts....they would demand they be fired on the spot. They behave like Animals..on your dime!!

And the way I and the women I have taken been spoken to by these men..would make most people ( women) blush to say the least .. these men's behavior is outrageous..it makes me ashamed to be American!

[loudsue]

25. I hope someone in your party takes a phone video of it, and puts it on YouTube.

We'll take it viral, and make sure the assholes DO lose their jobs.

[BeFree]

10. Well said

Yeah, the good stuff is advertised and printed.

It's just the bad stuff they try to hide.

[stray cat]

13. Dick cheney provided a public service for disclosing cia secrets and contacts

[Zanzobar]

17. Are you sure about this?

"And until OUR foreign policy is based just as much as the rest of the world's is on ACTUAL negotiation and compromise"...

You mean like China and Russia and Iran and Israel and Pakistan and India and Syria and...the rest of the countries who hate compromise.

Most of the world does not compromise. What you mean to say is:

"And until OUR foreign policy is based just as much as the rest of the world's countries which are forced to compromise because they have negligible economic power and military will..."

It is so.

[Ken Burch]

18. Using our "economic power and military will" hasn't led to any positive results for the world

since 1945.

Face it, "American power" can't BE progressive or positive...at least not as long as its used as it is used now.

We need to treat the rest of the world as equals, to admit that the poor of the world have a right to a basic standard of living, that the developing world has a right to use its resources for its OWN people first, and that the way to create stability and peace is to end poverty, environmental devastation and greed.

The age of "Bear any burden, fight any foe" has to end. It was never a mindset that created anything good for the majority of the population of this country.

And other than the handful of countries you mentioned, most states DO try to negotiate and compromise. If we did the same, it would ONLY be for the good.

Ultimatums and force are purely negative these days.

[Zanzobar]

19. Ultimatums and force are purely negative these days.

They've always been negative.


Call Taiwan and let them know that China means no harm.

[Ken Burch]

20. Ultimatums aren't protecting Taiwan.

Besides, the U.S. foreign policy establishment wouldn't actually care if China took over Taiwan. In fact, since China is now to the right of Taiwan on economic and trade policy, that establishment would likely welcome it.

Ultimatums and force can never have progressive results again. They can't in Iran(where a U.S. strike could only lead to a protracted and unwinnable war that would leave the ultra-religious in power forever)they can't in Afghanistan, they can't with Russia OR Korea.

Face it, hawkishness has outlived its usefulness and there can never be a "good war" again.

It's pointless for you to try to rehabilitate militarism.

[Zanzobar]

21. Rehabilitate milatarism?

That would be like trying to rehabilitate food.

You're not getting it.

[Ken Burch]

22. We need food to survive.

We don't need force and ultimatums as the default dispute-resolution mechanisms just to stay alive.

The difference between us is that you TRUST the "diplomats" and the generals.

[Zanzobar]

23. I don't trust anyone

The countries which don't need ultimatums and force have proxies.

It's that simple. Look around.

[Ken Burch]

24. What do you mean by "proxies"?

And "It's that simple. Look around." is just pointlessly cryptic.

If you buy into the whole Dick Cheney "it's still a dangerous world" meme, you should just join the Right and be done with it.

I mean, fine, there are risks in the world, but the force and threat thing is no longer the way to deal with them. It just doesn't work anymore.

[Zanzobar]

29. It is a dangerous world.

By proxy I mean countries who are willing to do violence on behalf of other countries who lack either the foresight, or political or economic might to do so themselves.

It's still the working model and it will be for quite some time.

[Mnemosyne]

30. You mean just like the USA has done for decades, right? n/t

[Zanzobar]

31. I suppose so.

But let's not forget China, Russia, Iran, Venezuela, etc.

Their diplomats are not hard at work compromising and figuring out ways to get along with the neighbors.

[Ken Burch]

32. It's not really fair to put Venezuela in the same category as the other three

n/t.

[Ken Burch]

33. Of course the world has dangers. No sane person would disagree.

What you're missing here is that the "it's a dangerous world" meme, when used by people like Cheney and Hillary(and let's face it, they're pretty much on the same moral plain) is code for "nothing can be changed, nothing can be discussed, nothing can be disclosed, you peasants HAVE to go off to kill or be killed every time we tell you to."

It's possible to acknowledge the dangers present in the world without endorsing the "National Security State" status quo.

[Zanzobar]

35. Dupe

[Zanzobar]

36. Not much actually does change.

You said:

"And until OUR foreign policy is based just as much as the rest of the world's is on ACTUAL negotiation and compromise, on actual respect for the needs of all, rather than just issuing ultimatums and giving other countries the choice between doing what OUR leaders want or getting invaded, there will be nothing positive about what ANY of our "diplomats" do in secret.

It is demonstrably false. Most of the rest of the world will grab your shit and run with it, just like us. Just as it has always been throughout world history.

[JackRiddler]

39. Fatalistic justification of crime and stupidity as universal, inevitable forces.

The world does change. The world has changed.

[Major Hogwash]

26. The State Department is corrupt, and has been for decades.

Where do you think the military industrial complex starts? The State Department!!

Sibel Edmonds paid the price for what she was willing to tell the world she saw going on in Bush's administration. All of the same people were involved with massive plots and plans to throw the entire world into chaos, and they did!

This didn't happen overnight.

[Ken Burch]

27. Of course it didn't happen overnight.

Nothing I've said would indicate that I thought it had.

[Gregorian]

28. Greed and fear. Greed and fear.

A couple of things come to mind as I read your post. Governments tend to be comprised of people who want to be in power. That is too broad and simple a statement. Bernie Sanders, Dennis Kucinich. But then Dick Cheney. I think it's the small fraction of good people who want to work for a better society that makes the groups in power so greedy. And they play on our fear to get us to go along with their greedy plans.

The other thing is capitalism. No one knows the recipe for Coca-cola. It's a secret. Secrets are prolific in the world of business.

Ultimately there must be some compromise by which an economy can function for profit, and yet the people can all have a standard of living that is above a reasonable minimum.

I don't think any of this is very deep. In fact I havent' had my coffee yet. Our goal is simple. But we've complicated the mess in a number of ways. Population increase has made things far more difficult, and will continue to do so as the resources needed in order to fuel economies become scarcer per capita.

Assange and the internet. I suspected this would happen sooner or later.

[meow mix]

34. recommended

:argh:

[butterfly77]

37. KICK..

[TexasObserver]

38. Yep.

The default position of many citizens is "the government knows better than us, they have more information than us, and we have to trust them."