Most of you, I see, still buy into the illusion of a democracy.

[Joe Fields]

It's not the players. The players really don't matter. They all have roles to play. It's the game and its rules that matter. Rules that most of you aren't willing to acknowledge. (for owning up to them would make you face some harsh realities.)

This country is in its end game. The powers that be have (almost) sucked our resources and capital dry.

I like this message board and I praise Skinner for relaxing some more rules to accommodate the extreme dissatisfaction many of us feel about our party and its leadership, policies and votes on certain issues. I get a lot of great information from several dedicated DUers on a daily basis.

I don't wish to be tombstoned, but really people, democracy is dead. There is only one side of the coin. This system is so damned corrupted that it really doesn't matter anymore who is in office, or what bill gets out of committee, or whether what scandal gets exposed, because it really is just bread and circuses, dog and pony shows, media makeovers, or whatever the hell else you want to call this shit.

We are in a lot of pain, as a nation right now, and we haven't begun to see how much pain we are yet to endure. Multinational corporations will dictate that to us in the coming years, with Washington's tacit approval, via media messaging.

When will this end? Don't know. A lot depends on when average citizens begin to quit paying more attention to "Dancing With the Stars" and questioning and researching and thinking for themselves and stopping listening to the media prophets.

I cry for my what my Democratic party used to represent. I cry now for my country. I feel like I am seeing a train wreck coming in slow motion and there is absolutely no way to stop it.

Skinner, please don't ban me for this.

Peace, everyone.

[leveymg]

1. Why would you get banned? You're only saying, eloquently, what a lot of us have said for years.

Welcome to DU - one of the last vestiges of the reality-based community - and, we're here for the duration.

[Joe Fields]

2. I hope so. Although I'm not sure how much longer free speech on the

internet will be around. But for myself, I have been following DU since its inception and have been a member since 2002.


Peace

[leveymg]

6. They tolerate these sites because they're a necessary pressure-relief valve for discontent.

The open net is also useful for domestic surveillance and police intelligence-collection purposes. Personally, I say what I want them to know about what we actually know, which is more than they pretend we should know. B-) :evilgrin: B-) :hide: :patriot: :yoiks:

[laughingliberal]

76. We're also useful for when elected Democrats want to impress Republicans. They can insult us and...

look badass.

[inna]

17. +1,000

i hear you, my brother.

it's like they already started taking the scenery down (just as Zappa predicted), but the majority of the populace is still oblivious.


"The illusion of freedom will continue as long as it's profitable to continue the illusion. At the point where the illusion becomes too expensive to maintain, they will just take down the scenery, they will pull back the curtains, they will move the tables and chairs out of the way and you will see the brick wall at the back of the theater."

[Joe Fields]

25. Zappa was prescient. He saw things as they are long before...

most of us did. Long before I had to admit that he was right, and his description could not have been more apt.

[inna]

41. Yep. Carlin is another one. Remember this rant?

There's a reason for this, there's a reason education sucks, and it's the same reason it will never ever ever be fixed. It's never going to get any better. Don't look for it. Be happy with what you've got... because the owners of this country don’t want that. I'm talking about the real owners now... the real owners. The big wealthy business interests that control things and make all the important decisions. Forget the politicians. The politicians are put there to give you the idea that you have freedom of choice. You don’t. You have no choice. You have owners. They own you. They own everything. They own all the important land. They own and control the corporations. They’ve long since bought and paid for the Senate, the Congress, the state houses, the city halls. They got the judges in their back pockets and they own all the big media companies, so they control just about all of the news and information you get to hear. They got you by the balls. They spend billions of dollars every year lobbying. Lobbying to get what they want. Well, we know what they want. They want more for themselves and less for everybody else, but I’ll tell you what they don’t want. They don’t want a population of citizens capable of critical thinking. They don’t want well-informed, well-educated people capable of critical thinking. They’re not interested in that. That doesn’t help them. That’s against their interests. That’s right. They don’t want people who are smart enough to sit around a kitchen table and think about how badly they’re getting fucked by a system that threw them overboard 30 fuckin’ years ago. They don’t want that. You know what they want? They want obedient workers. Obedient workers, people who are just smart enough to run the machines and do the paperwork. And just dumb enough to passively accept all these increasingly shittier jobs with the lower pay, the longer hours, the reduced benefits, the end of overtime and vanishing pension that disappears the minute you go to collect it. And now they’re coming for your Social Security money. They want your fuckin' retirement money. They want it back so they can give it to their criminal friends on Wall Street. And you know something? They’ll get it. They’ll get it all from you sooner or later 'cause they own this fuckin' place. It’s a big club and you ain't in it. You and I are not in the big club. By the way, it’s the same big club they use to beat you over the head with all day long when they tell you what to believe. All day long beating you over the head with their media telling you what to believe, what to think and what to buy. The table is tilted, folks. The game is rigged and nobody seems to notice. Nobody seems to care. Good, honest, hard-working people: white collar, blue collar, it doesn’t matter what color shirt you have on. Good, honest, hard-working people continue — these are people of modest means — continue to elect these rich cocksuckers who don’t give a fuck about them. They don’t give a fuck about you. They don’t give a fuck about you. They don’t care about you at all! At all! At all! And nobody seems to notice. Nobody seems to care. That’s what the owners count on. The fact that Americans will probably remain willfully ignorant of the big red, white and blue dick that’s being jammed up their assholes every day, because the owners of this country know the truth. It’s called the American Dream, 'cause you have to be asleep to believe it.

ETA: amazingly dead on.

[SusanaMontana41]

77. I don't remember this rant, but I do remember, love and miss George Carlin.

When did he say this?

Guess it doesn't really matter, does it? Whenever he said it, we're still there.

Thanks for posting, inna.

[Kievan Rus]

85. I love the end to that Carlin speech

The American Dream was always BS; all that's changed is that it's blatantly obvious now.

[defendandprotect]

115. Love Carlin ... and always amazed that anyone is watching anything on TV still....

with exception of KO -- not Jon Stuart any more! -- and Rachel Maddow --

Schultz -- how's O'Donnell doing with his new show?

Thom Hartmann -- Schultz -- Randi Rhodes -- they're the people I most frequently

catch on radio when I'm in my car -- think there are a number of other good liberals

people could add to this where you can catch them on internet --

But, otherwise, the Orwellian screen should be put in the closet!!

And I could really do with less of KO covering the right wing for me every night!!

Any time KO or Rachel show a Repug it should be in a small window and a line drawn

thru it!!

[bjobotts]

108. But here is the wild card from the universe to those who "think" they have control

COLLAPSE. These multinational corporations and their wealthy owners must face the fact that you cannot have sustained growth with finite resources.
They've poisoned the oceans; are destroying the ozone layer; polluted the air; poisoned our drinking water; destroyed our top soil so seeds can only grow in chemicals with dirt thrown on top and caused massive climate change leading to global warming...all in the name of greed and profit.

We are in the "fourth turning" where we all will undergo massive change and upheaval...either having it forced on us, or willingly being bold enough to make the changes ourselves.

In the future it will be the "United Islands of America" or maybe the wastelands of death as united communities spring up just for people to survive. The wealthy will all be targets as money has no real meaning to such communities. Most will be dead anyway if we become emboldened and realize that "Democratic Socialism" is the only form of government that both ensures our Freedom and our Survival.

Destroying Wall street and hedge fund managers is the first step to bringing our democracy back. Medicare for all and increasing Social Security and getting rid of terms like "portfolio" will enlarge communal thinking.

Most of us believe what we believe because we are afraid not to even though we have absolutely no subjective experience of those beliefs. Fear underlies so much of our lives and will even cause us to give up trying. If you're gonna give up completely then do the world a favor and shoot some self centered greedy bastard before you go which usually = a republican.

Don't give up and get depressed. Remember "THIS TOO WILL PASS". In the meantime get as prepared as you can, hopefully with a community for support, knowing that democracy is being held hostage by a class war...the wealthy have most of the money but we have the numbers...making Democratic Socialism THE tool for freedom AND survival. It's the American way.

[Joe Fields]

135. I am totally with you. Are you open to suggestions? Please pm me.

:hug:

[defendandprotect]

120. At end of Cold War -- as they were reducing Russia back to third world status ....

they no longer needed to support a middle class here --

However, we have to keep in mind that these people are basically criminals --

different factions -- there are always major thefts going on and capitalism is

one of the avenues available for that theft. We have just had one of the

greatest financial coups ever pulled off in the bailouts by Bush/Obama ...


9/11 also represents a concerted steal .... by Osama Bin Laden?

Same with the Kennedy assassination -- also accompanied by criminals having a

big day.

[axollot]

73. Do not fear - proxy, proxy, proxy!!

It will end up as a new industry if that happens! Safe havens in Europe and else where around the world will have proxies to help work around. The Australian government did a 'in the name of the children' censor of many websites.

cheers
Sandy

[Hardrada]

133. We don't always have free speech here.

[Chulanowa]

12. And years... and years... and years.. .and years...

All while stuffing your faces with oreos and thinking that you're like, totally a political genius, dude.

[geckosfeet]

21. Strawberry Newtons are good too. They really amplify the self-delusion and

self-deification affect.

Now, if I can just get someone to buy my broken computer on Craigs list....

[NoPasaran]

33. Eloquent? Maybe, if the OP is by a third grader

I expect a little more from hand-wringing, defeatist posts by adults.

[sudopod]

56. Prove him wrong then, Andy.

Show us all how trying to change things in the places of power isn't futile unless you have lots of money.

That's my plan to save the world, by the way. I'm going to get filthy rich and then buy my politicians fair and square.

[abelenkpe]

58. Your little dig is so mature too

But hey if it makes you feel bigger than go for it.

[laughingliberal]

78. The irony impairment is strong in that one. nt

[liberation]

62. You are right, ad hominems are soooo fourth grade.

Much more mature indeed.

LOL.

[Cerridwen]

84. I look forward to reading your well-reasoned and eloquent rebuttal. n/t

[HuckleB]

116. But, but the Sky IS Falling, dontcha know?

[Joe Fields]

136. You had better duck.

[HuckleB]

117. But, but the Sky IS Falling, dontcha know?

[Joe Fields]

3. I have to get up early and go work at my slave job tomorrow; please kick.

I'm off to bed.

peace

Joe

[Joe Fields]

4. but, at least I have a job, which many cannot say.

[Bluenorthwest]

36. Your lexicon of extremity and self indulgence made me find a

link. You should read up during one of your breaks from being a 'slave'.
http://www.infoplease.com/spot/slavery1.html
Words mean things.

[liberation]

63. If you were really interested in meaning and not the easy and quick red herring...

... you would link to the dictionary's definition, not a blog article.

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/slavery?show=0&t=1291337830

[bigtree]

5. peace everyone?

this is just so apathetic that you'd almost believe it's deliberate. What's the message here? That these challenges are more overwhelming than our history has ever offered up before? Give up and cry? That's more than apathetic, it's pathetic.

[leveymg]

8. I believe the economic problems attendant to globalization are unprecedented in their severity,

beyond the ability of national governments, even the USG, to cope with.

We could deal with the Germans and Russians, but not with our own bankers, who are no longer New Yorkers, but are Zurich-Hong Kong-Dubai.

[bigtree]

10. now that I can find some agreement with

. . . but we are still consumers who devour cheap imports from the same nations and these foreign investors make less money when we consume less; not to mention some delay in payments on the interest or some unthinkable default. If the primary product of that commerce is dollars, we will continue to dictate the parameters of that industry. It's not unheard of for governments to take control of out of control industries and their capital to buttress their empire's own sagging skin. I think the demise of our gargantuan nation has been prematurely eulogized by the op.

[leveymg]

14. The system is a snake devouring its own tail. If there was anything that the Wall Street meltdown

showed us is that the U.S. financial system is a giant Ponzi scheme, the remains of which is now living on life-support provided in the form of government bailouts. It's unsustainable - once the public purse gets closed, the Multinationals are going to turn off the lights in America. Operations in this country are a loss center, and investors are realizing far better returns in higher-growth areas in Asia and the rest of the world. Good night.

[rhett o rick]

125. I dont think you have been paying attention to what's happening in our country.

With the high unemployment, poverty and homeless, our government continues to borrow from China, Saudi Arabia and India. They in turn are buying up American corporations. Trillions of dollars are being transferred from our future generations to the bankers.

Give a scenario where we can make a come back.

[mmonk]

20. Yep.

The financial corruption and forces of globalization and greed make the voting populace just background props to be rearranged to shape the picture.

[truth2power]

42. A person has to be able to articulate what the problem is

before they can solve it. I think the OP has done good job of stating what we're up against. It's no shame to acknowledge how irredeemably corrupt our system is.

The OP is eloquently stated, IMO.

[hfojvt]

7. then there's really not much point to this message board is there?

Why do you even want that information that you get from the dedicated DUers? Is it stock tips or something?

You realize that you can still READ DU even after you are tombstoned don't you?

Myself, for all the Democratic Party is often not progressive enough, particularly with Senators from the Dakotas and Montana, I still think we'd have been much better off if our side, or should I say my side, had won big in this last election. But, in the words of a Texas politician, "the people have spoken, damn them".

[slay]

9. I feel the same way

as do many others. Some people will surely mock you and continue to have faith in a broken system, but some of us really do see it.

[jotsy]

11. Politics is theater, not governance is the way I say it.

These boards seem to weep in many a spot tonight. We work better with dryer eyes, though I know well, the well of a stubborn and constant tear. Some in the nation remember its calling, and are saddened by the many more who haven't kept vigil over the pillars supporting the notion of independent sovereignty that is at the core of us.

For two more minutes today, it is an anniversary. A double nickle in years ago, Rosa Parks set herself a standard and what we must consider is what she risked and what she gained. It is scary and yes possibly dangerous to our well being to speak out, but oppression-whether it be built through limiting economic means or engaging in a police state-will not end until we take a similar stand.

Pearl Harbor Day, December 7th, next week. A citizen's bank run, an international thing.
<http://www.commondreams.org/view/2010/11/24-2>

This is but one thing, there are many organizations and activities that can be undertaken to facilitate a cleaner skeletal structure and start to see ourselves again as a self governing society.

[OnyxCollie]

13. They Thought They Were Free

They Thought They Were Free

The Germans, 1933-45

Excerpt from pages 166-73 of "They Thought They Were Free" First published in 1955

By Milton Mayer

But Then It Was Too Late

"Your friend the baker was right," said my colleague. "The dictatorship, and the whole process of its coming into being, was above all diverting. It provided an excuse not to think for people who did not want to think anyway. I do not speak of your ‘little men,’ your baker and so on; I speak of my colleagues and myself, learned men, mind you. Most of us did not want to think about fundamental things and never had. There was no need to. Nazism gave us some dreadful, fundamental things to think about—we were decent people—and kept us so busy with continuous changes and ‘crises’ and so fascinated, yes, fascinated, by the machinations of the ‘national enemies,’ without and within, that we had no time to think about these dreadful things that were growing, little by little, all around us. Unconsciously, I suppose, we were grateful. Who wants to think?

"To live in this process is absolutely not to be able to notice it—please try to believe me—unless one has a much greater degree of political awareness, acuity, than most of us had ever had occasion to develop. Each step was so small, so inconsequential, so well explained or, on occasion, ‘regretted,’ that, unless one were detached from the whole process from the beginning, unless one understood what the whole thing was in principle, what all these ‘little measures’ that no ‘patriotic German’ could resent must some day lead to, one no more saw it developing from day to day than a farmer in his field sees the corn growing. One day it is over his head.

"How is this to be avoided, among ordinary men, even highly educated ordinary men? Frankly, I do not know. I do not see, even now. Many, many times since it all happened I have pondered that pair of great maxims, Principiis obsta and Finem respice—‘Resist the beginnings’ and ‘Consider the end.’ But one must foresee the end in order to resist, or even see, the beginnings. One must foresee the end clearly and certainly and how is this to be done, by ordinary men or even by extraordinary men? Things might have. And everyone counts on that might.

"Your ‘little men,’ your Nazi friends, were not against National Socialism in principle. Men like me, who were, are the greater offenders, not because we knew better (that would be too much to say) but because we sensed better. Pastor Niemöller spoke for the thousands and thousands of men like me when he spoke (too modestly of himself) and said that, when the Nazis attacked the Communists, he was a little uneasy, but, after all, he was not a Communist, and so he did nothing; and then they attacked the Socialists, and he was a little uneasier, but, still, he was not a Socialist, and he did nothing; and then the schools, the press, the Jews, and so on, and he was always uneasier, but still he did nothing. And then they attacked the Church, and he was a Churchman, and he did something—but then it was too late."

http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article11845.htm

[BobbyBoring]

26. I've thought about that for a long time!

What went through the minds of the average German during the rise of the Nazi Party? I see such a scary parallel in the USA now. Rabble rousers like Dick Army, Rush, Hannity etc have whipped the "Mob" into a fury. The Tea Partiers are what I imagine many Germans were like during the rise of the party. Angry that they had been betrayed buy whoever, they let what liberties they had slide away and became part of the most tragic war of all time.

I see way to many similarities between the fall of Germany, The Roman Empire, and our "Empire". I fear we will share the same fate.

[justabob]

114. excellent quote from an excellent book

Definitely recommended reading.

[snagglepuss]

134. Thnks for posting, This is now a must read. nt

[Ghost Dog]

15. Democracy is dead.

There is only one side of the coin. This system is so damned corrupted that it really doesn't matter anymore who is in office, or what bill gets out of committee, or whether what scandal gets exposed, because it really is just bread and circuses, dog and pony shows, media makeovers, or whatever the hell else you want to call this shit.

Since most US people are hypnotised by TV, I suggest guerrilla activity: make guerrilla TV material, guerrilla hack into TV distribution/broadcast/satellite channels, transmit said guerrilla TV material into hypnotised TV heads, guerrilla observe TV head exploding/awakening.
:smoke:

[zigzagzed]

16. Illusion compared to what?

I appreciate the eloquence with which voice your concern for the future. I am new to DU, but it is gratifying to see this as a venue where concerns can be expressed honestly and openly.

However, I must respectfully disagree with your thesis that the United States has only the illusion of democracy. I agree that there is a growing sense that democracy is in danger. This is one of the points on which many on both the right and the left find common ground. However, I do not believe this concern is warranted.

First, how would you compare the state of democracy in the United States with that elsewhere in the world? It seems to me that non-demographic regimes maintain only the thinnest facades of democratic governance, not the elaborate system we would have to have here. Furthermore, in the few instances when regimes transition away from democracy, the change happens rapidly and dramatically. For the thesis to hold, the transition in the US would have to be atypical in that it was slow, gradual, and secretive. Compared to most countries that are or claim to be democracies, I would argue that the United States is more democratic than most.

Second, how would you compare the state of democracy in the United States today with that in previous eras? The fear-mongering and jingoism of today would be easily recognizable under McCarthism, the Red Scare following the First World War, during Reconstruction, during the buildup to the Civil War, and at most other eras in US history. And the influence of corporations today is reminiscent of that of John D. Rockefeller, William Randolph Hearst, or Andrew Carnegie. It seems to me that things really have not changed since the early days of the Republic.

I agree that the United States does not live up to the ideal of a representative democracy. Our electorate should be better informed, and our elected officials should be more willing to transcend petty interests. Nevertheless, while we should always strive to realize our ideals, we must be cognizant of the fact that our democracy will always fall short of perfection.

Is our democracy perfect? No! But that doesn't mean that we should cease fighting for it.

[Bluenorthwest]

38. See, you have some perspective

and some knowledge. I agree with you.

[truth2power]

45. I'm not persuaded by your argument, zigzagzed...

I think the OP is right on target with his assessment.

When reading your post, the phrase that kept coming to mind was "inverted totalitarianism". I think Sheldon Wolin originally coined that term in his book: "Democracy Incorporated". I read his book, but I no longer have it (it was a library book) so I can't discuss it in detail.

However, I went looking and found the following article and review of Wolin's book by the late Chalmers Johnson:

Inverted Totalitarianism: A New Way of Understanding How the U.S. Is Controlled.

http://www.alternet.org/news/85728/inverted_totalitarianism:_a_new_way_of_understanding_how_the_u.s._is_controlled/?page=entire

Here are some snips:

To reduce a complex argument to its bare bones, since the Depression, the twin forces of managed democracy and Superpower have opened the way for something new under the sun: "inverted totalitarianism," a form every bit as totalistic as the classical version but one based on internalized co-optation, the appearance of freedom, political disengagement rather than mass mobilization, and relying more on "private media" than on public agencies to disseminate propaganda that reinforces the official version of events. It is inverted because it does not require the use of coercion, police power and a messianic ideology as in the Nazi, Fascist and Stalinist versions (although note that the United States has the highest percentage of its citizens in prison -- 751 per 100,000 people -- of any nation on Earth). According to Wolin, inverted totalitarianism has "emerged imperceptibly, unpremeditatedly, and in seeming unbroken continuity with the nation's political traditions."

The genius of our inverted totalitarian system "lies in wielding total power without appearing to, without establishing concentration camps, or enforcing ideological uniformity, or forcibly suppressing dissident elements so long as they remain ineffectual. A demotion in the status and stature of the 'sovereign people' to patient subjects is symptomatic of systemic change, from democracy as a method of 'popularizing' power to democracy as a brand name for a product marketable at home and marketable abroad. The new system, inverted totalitarianism, is one that professes the opposite of what, in fact, it is. The United States has become the showcase of how democracy can be managed without appearing to be suppressed." Emphasis added.

I think the OP is accurate. We think we have choices, but we don't, really. No matter who we "elect" the result will be more of same, only with perhaps more pleasant background music.

I think we're well past the "democracy in danger" mode and have reached the point of living in "illusion of democracy".

[zigzagzed]

52. It's good to see a vigorous debate

I am familiar with the concept of "inverted totalitarianism" but am not entirely persuaded by it. I do think there is value in the theory, and there may be some truths in the processes Mr. Wolin describes. He summarizes the conditions for inverted totalitarianism in a May 2003 article in The Nation, in which he wrote:

Thus the elements are in place: a weak legislative body, a legal system that is both compliant and repressive, a party system in which one party, whether in opposition or in the majority, is bent upon reconstituting the existing system so as to permanently favor a ruling class of the wealthy, the well-connected and the corporate, while leaving the poorer citizens with a sense of helplessness and political despair, and, at the same time, keeping the middle classes dangling between fear of unemployment and expectations of fantastic rewards once the new economy recovers. That scheme is abetted by a sycophantic and increasingly concentrated media; by the integration of universities with their corporate benefactors; by a propaganda machine institutionalized in well-funded think tanks and conservative foundations; by the increasingly closer cooperation between local police and national law enforcement agencies aimed at identifying terrorists, suspicious aliens and domestic dissidents.

Source: http://www.thenation.com/article/inverted-totalitarianism

I agree that it is possible for there to be a confluence of these forces to subvert democracy, but I also believe that these forces have existed throughout US history. For example, large segments of the media have always been vessels for pushing agendas. How many newspapers used to have the words "Democrat" and "Republican" in their titles because they were essentially party mouthpieces? Also, there has always been cooperation between local and national law enforcement agencies, particularly as the nation expanded westward when there was no difference between local and national lawmen. In sum, I am not persuaded that the forces Mr. Wolin observed are unique and, therefore, producing unique effects. If these forces are producing something unique, where is the evidence?

This leads to my biggest problem with inverted totalitarianism: the covert nature by which it is supposed to come. The forces tend to coincide behind the scenes and with little public notice. This all too easily lends itself to conspiratorial thinking in which lack of evidence is believed to support, rather than undermine, the theory. Psychologists argue that conspiracy theorists often exhibit a sense of alienation (such as mistrust of authority and political cynicism), feelings of powerlessness (particularly a belief in an external locus of control), expression of hostility (such as a belief in a malevolent world), and perception of being disadvantaged. None of this necessarily undermines the conspiracy theory itself, but should serve as a red flag indicating that we need to be particularly methodical in our search for evidence.

I have observed all of these conspiratorial tendencies in the arguments that American democracy is an illusion (in general) and for inverted totalitarianism (in particular). As I stated above, this does not undermine the theory but does reinforce the need for evidence. Even in science, a good theory requires supporting evidence. So I ask the questions: where is the evidence that democracy is an illusion, and where is the evidence that things now are different from how they were in previous eras?

Or, has democracy in the United States always been an illusion?

[Overseas]

129. Thanks for the link to the brilliant article!

This inverted totalitarianism as reviewed by Chalmers Johnson comes closest to describing the world I have seen and our place within it.

[liberation]

64. Illusion does not imply comparisson...

... sorry but you starting with a fallacy does not bode well for an argument.

Furthermore with stuff like this "Compared to most countries that are or claim to be democracies, I would argue that the United States is more democratic than most." You are simply compounding that initial fallacy.

Not that it makes the OP's opinion any more/less correct.

Cheers.

[zigzagzed]

79. I disagree.

To claim that something is an illusion necessarily implies a comparison between what is observed and some point of reference. In my previous post, I meant to imply that we should not claim that democracy is an illusion because we have compared the way things are with an abstract, idealized conception of how a democracy ought to be. If we do that, then all democracies will be illusions compared to the "perfect" democracy. Our analysis of the state of democracy must be grounded in realism, not idealism.

I believe a valid comparison is made when comparing the present state of democracy in the United States with 1) democracies elsewhere in the world, and 2) previous eras in US history. When one does this, I believe that we can legitimately make the following two claims. First, the United States has an effective government compared to other states around the world. The United States is ranked well above average in both the "Democracy Index" by the Economist Intelligence Unit and the "Freedom in the World" report by Freedom House. Second, the state of democracy in the United States is not demonstrably worse than it has been for most of US history. In fact, I think it valid to state that increased voter enfranchisement makes democracy today more vibrant than it has been for most of US history.

In sum, to claim that the state of something is an illusion is to compare the way things are with something else. I believe it is invalid to compare democracy in the United States with an idealized standard. Instead, we must compare the United States to other countries, and conditions today with conditions in the past. When compared in this way, I argue that one cannot support a claim that democracy in the United States is an illusion.

[liberation]

94. You seem to have misunderstood my point...

... when I said that using one's opinion as a fact when establishing a counterargument is a fallacy. The fallacy comes simply from opinion being passed as fact, not from the amount of opinion present not being enough (you seem to assume it had to be increased given your response).

You did not establish a valid comparison, because you simply stated that we're the most democratic country ever anywhere. That is a personal belief, since you provided no factual data to back up such arbitrary estimation. In other words you keep providing qualitative arguments, when a quantitative ones are required. Thus, as I said, compounding the fallacy.

The problem with the OP's point is that he used the term "democracy" thus leaving a barn-sized gaping hole for all sorts of red herrings, strawmen, and other argumentative fun and games.

Cheers.

[zigzagzed]

96. Objection withdrawn

I grant that the terms were not properly operationalized, and that one cannot make an objective assessment of democracy until one establishes criteria for what constitutes a democracy and what distinguishes it from other systems.

[Politicub]

103. Enjoying the posts and reading your arguments

Welcome to DU!

[Recursion]

82. Delete

Replied to the wrong post

[Raine]

18. Believe me I'm no longer under that illusion

the whole system is rigged so that we the people and Democracy are always going to lose.

[cutlassmama]

19. K&R. very eleoquently put. Wow

[LiberalLoner]

22. K&R. The only bright side to peak oil (which will start making itself felt very soon) is

that it will cost so dang much to send stuff overseas, that jobs will have to come back to the U.S. We will, within a decade I predict, have to become much more local in our economies.

[Joe Fields]

23. That's an interesting concept. But I fear that, by the time that happens...

We may be getting into a protracted war, either directly, or even indirectly with China over oil. If only people had listened to Carter 30 years ago, we could have a renewable infrastructure in place, and our foreign policy decisions would have been looking much different.

[meow mix]

24. yup. never agreed until now

i always thought that was a lame argument..
now its been proven.

dont know if ill even bother to vote anymore, probally just for state measures.

[AngryOldDem]

27. If you get banned....

...it will just prove the validity of your thoughts.

Excellent post, K&R.

[steve2470]

28. We have the democracy we deserve, a lousy and badly broken one nt

[Scruffy1]

29. Welcome to reality-but their is hope

If nothing else Obama destroyed the last of the illusion of representative democracy. As watched the drama of health care reform even the slowest among us came to the conclusion most of the representation was corporate. I really think Zizek was very close to right in his book "Living in the End Times" , in which he compares the death of capitalism to the stages of grief. I'm not going to do a synopsis but I highly recommend reading it.

The hope part comes from the fact that they are scared shitless of us. Think about it. It really started with the WTO shutdown in Seattle and was followed by the fraudulent election of George Bush. The corporate power couldn't win on propaganda alone and had to buy some justices or call in some markers. In 2010 they dumped tons of cash under the table just to get some control because they know they can't win in a fair fight. What I see happening is that their shills will get more reactionary in order to please their insane masters and the backlash will build
a strong anti-establishment movement.

The struggle of capital versus labor started long ago. I personally mark the start of the modern struggle as 1876 in Haymarket square. Sixty years and hundreds of dead workers later we got the eight hour day and the right to organize. Now over 70 years later we have lost nearly all of our power, but that is changing too as we adjust to a
service economy. Political power is all about numbers-it has very little to do with party affiliation. If you have an organization that can deliver 50,000 votes then a politician will kiss your ass in about any state.

[snagglepuss]

137. Well said. Despite the PTB votes matter which is why faux exists. nt

[theophilus]

30. I believe you are absolutely right. We have seen it die. Well said. n/t

[marmar]

31. I don't ..... at all.

That's why I just kind of laugh at all the posts calling for candidate A to primary candidate B and so on. It's all Kabuki Theatre.

[info being]

32. I agree 100%

[dgibby]

34. Sadly,I could not agree more,

and have been saying the same thing for a very long time.

[Nye Bevan]

35. Jerry Brown defeated Meg Whitman in the California Governor's race

despite spending only $25 million compared to Whitman's $160 million.

So explain to me again: how is this an "illusion of a democracy"? Perhaps I'm missing something, but isn't a "democracy" when you have an election and the candidate who gets most votes wins?

:shrug:

[liberation]

68. Awesome...

Then the election of 2000 where Bush, the candidate with fewer votes, won means that this is a superduper democracy then. No?

[OhioBlue]

113. Great point Nye. n/t

[TBF]

37. Joe, it's not the democracy - it's the capitalism. It is killing all of us. nt

[Name removed]

39. Deleted message

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Bluenorthwest]

40. Hey Joe, do you have a dictionary?

Your words are all hyped out, dramatized and just inaccurate. Take this theory of yours that the 'average American' is just watching Dancing with the Stars. Good theory! But what does 'average' mean? We have over 300 million Americans. The largest audience for that show was, I think, 23 million, which is huge, absoulely. But 23 out of 300 means the 'average American' has never even seen one episode of that show. You claim the average person is hypnotized willess by that show, yet not even 10% even watch it for a moment. 10% is not 'the average' not even the majority, not even a pluarity.
Hype, based on a love of histrionics when a love of history would probably serve you better.

[liberation]

67. Technically, you should be asking if he has a math book. No?

I don't think basic statistical theory is in the scope of a dictionary.

[Pholus]

140. What you got out of it is that Joe was talking about ONE show?

Here, let me fix this for you so the point becomes more clear

"the 'average American' spends a large amount of their free time trying to escape the dreary reality that threatens to engulf us all (like watching Dancing with the Stars or any other number of diversions both on TV and off)."

He must have done good though, if that's the best criticism that can be leveled...

[Bragi]

43. I wonder what Pres. Obama really thinks about democracy now

It would be fascinating to know if President Obama still, in his heart of hearts, believes in democracy.

I think he ran with honest intent to bring in real change, but maybe now understands better than others that, than even if you're elected President on with a mandate for change, you can't really bring profound change in most areas of public policy that actually matter.

[felix_numinous]

44. I will agree there is vast dysfunction

throughout the country in nearly all the institutions, it is now plain to see. Before the last decade this corruption was hidden enough from view that it was easy to deny, so most people went on with their lives. Now it has broken through, like a boil broken through the thin skin of illusion we all lived under. Now we can see our wounds and feel the pain. It is vital to allow ourselves to feel the pain, grieve our losses and express all this frustration to get it out of us--in order to move beyond this wounding.

I have hung onto the idea that justice was the only way forward for this country, but it is not the only thing that needs to happen.

There is another very satisfying revenge--this I know from my own stubbornness and rebellious nature: The best revenge is to prevail, to find happiness when they want you to be miserable, to laugh at them and move on. The best revenge is to band together and take care of ourselves--to create a better world than their hell. That I would love to see.

[snagglepuss]

138. +1

[librechik]

46. could we get a little sweet talk first?

Jeez--I've only had since 1963 to think about it....

[struggle4progress]

47. Get Up Stand Up

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m0NglnPkglU

[Saxon]

97. We live in Babylon

K&R

[kctim]

48. So, will this all come to a boil

before or after the end of our 'Republic' that the right-wing has been talking about for decades? Or are you guys talking about the same 'event,' since they are so similar?

[FlyByNight]

49. Empires fail

We will be no different.

Congress has been relegated to middle-management, the President can't attain office without significant corporate backing and about half of Congress are millionaires. As George Carlin once said (paraphrasing), "it's a big club and you ain't in it."

Big PhRMA, Big Insurance, the MICC, the National/Security State Complex, etc., run the American show now. We the people are drones and our elected officials sit idly by, fellate lobbyists for campaign cash, and engage in the facade of law making (at least in the Senate).

:mad:

[AmandaMae]

50. I don't; it's a corporate plutocracy.

[Quixote1818]

51. As George Carlin said "This country was bought and sold a long time ago. It's a big club

and you and I ain't in it". It will take someone like Teddy Roosevelt, a good hearted Republican that sneaks in and turns on his owners to change things. If that happens it will be pure luck.

[marew]

53. This I know.

My father, who died in '99, was an Army career man and a WWII and Korea veteran. He would not recognize what is going on in this country today.

[ibegurpard]

54. well, you sure like his education agenda

[jeff47]

55. Yeah! Nihilism is so cool!

9th grade is going to be so great!

[sudopod]

57. Wow, you're a real pro at this trolling thing, aren't you? nt

[liberation]

65. That word "nihilism" does not mean what you think it does...

... I don't think I can hold it against you given that you're still in 8th grade though.

[BoneDaddy]

59. why should you be banned

for an opinion? You should be lauded for one because, as we know, DU is the bastion of free speech (sarcasm).

Say what you will man/woman

[Javaman]

60. You have summed up what I have been saying for years.

Thanks for the post!

[L0oniX]

61. Rich machiavellian sociopath corporatist's have destroyed the USA.

[alarimer]

66. I agree with you; we've been lied to all our lives about this vaunted "republic"

And its supposed superior values of individual liberty and the Bill of Rights. The fact is, this has always been a country of, by and for the powerful and rich. They through us a little bone by throwing in the Bill of Rights but it was just a sop to keep us from constant open rebellion.

I've been reading A People's History and it has really opened my eyes. It's turned me into a radical, actually.

[Nye Bevan]

70. OK. So it would be totally impossible for a long-shot minority candidate

to take on a white WASP establishment pick, raise money primarily from small donations from normal, non-rich people, and be elected to the office of President?

Right?

[alarimer]

101. It is always possible to elect a slick liar.

People bought his bullshit. I can't help that. But politicians lie all the time to get elected; it's how the system works. None of them are to be trusted at all to actually keep their word.

[Odin2005]

69. If voting changed anything they would make it illegal. --Emma Goldman

The elites carefully vet who is the nominee so our choices are between two corporate hacks, nit unlike in Iran where only theocrats are allowed to run.

[MichiganVote]

71. Well if you're banned, might as well ban me too.

[axollot]

72. You are hardly alone in feeling this way. I've vented a fair amount

today about several issues but one that keeps coming up is the saying 'the curtain has been dropped'. It has for many, while many more have seen it and even though I could see it going back at least 30yrs, the Democrats we elected still can shock me.

But we do have power as people. The answer for a long time has been campaign finance reform and ending corporate personhood. Now we have the added weight of unlimited (but seemingly still limited in scope) dollars coming through the media selling us a politician that a corporation wants us to buy.

When we are afraid of {our government} or to apathetic towards our government to not peacefully demonstrate en mass across the nation then we need to reflect on how and why that is and how we can fix it.

Cheers
Sandy

[DeSwiss]

74. K&R n/t

[laughingliberal]

75. K & R nt

[SusanaMontana41]

80. Lots of us would have been banned by now if banning were what Skinner is about.

When you take off the Democrat/Republican filter and see the world through the haves/have-nots filter, you can't go back to the "old world" view. It isn't about political parties. Probably never was.

I'm right there with ya, Joe. Don't give up. Our country is worth fighting for.

And thanks for the oasis that is DU, Skinner.

[asdjrocky]

81. Not me.

Mostly I just medicate and laugh at it all now. Call it a criminal defense mechanism.

[Recursion]

83. Oh for Christ's sake

Go to Burundi or Colombia or Indonesia some time and then tell me Democracy is dead here in the US.

The rich have always had inordinate influence in politics; in many periods of our history they had more influence than today.

[zigzagzed]

86. Elegance in brevity (n/t)

[Cerridwen]

87. By your standards, the US is better than Burundi or Columbia or

Indonesia?

How far would you like to lower that bar?

We're doing much better than Europe in the Middle Ages as well. We don't have plague! Go USA!

[liberation]

88. That's the beauty of ever dropping standards...

... drop'em enough, and you can have supposed Dems using the same "if you don't like it, leave" argument line which was all the rage among republicans not so long ago.

[Cerridwen]

89. "love it or leave it" crap has been posted here on DU.

"If you think it's so bad, try Somalia or Saudi Arabia" or some such.

Ditch diggers should make a premium for posting on DU with all the lowered standards I've been reading.

[Politicub]

107. I'm of the mind of loving it and trying to change it for the better

All of history has been a struggle. Why should now be any different? :shrug:

I join many of my fellow DUers in feeling frustrated by the current state of politics and President Obama not being the type of progressive I had hoped he would be. But there still stuff to be grateful for. His supreme court picks to name one.

So I'm not writing off working to get dems in office by any means. One would think the current crop of republicans in the house would remove the scales from the eyes of those who doubt there is difference between the two parties. But the circular firing squad only seems to get bigger.

The idea of America is wonderful. The reality will always be imperfect. It's useless to give up on trying to make our country and the world a better place.

[OhioBlue]

111. +1 perfectly said. n/t

[zigzagzed]

91. There's a difference

Having a realistic assessment of the state of our democracy by comparing it to other times and places does not imply that we should cease working towards realizing our ideals. Progressivism is only served by a honest understanding of where we are and where we want to be.

[Cerridwen]

95. That's not what you said.

"...does not imply that we should cease working towards realizing our ideals. Progressivism is only served by a honest understanding of where we are and where we want to be."

You lowered the bar. Cut it out. Quit lowering the bar by saying we're "better than" some country that is lower than our ideals. Look to the US ideals and compare what is happening now with what we thought we could accomplish and achieve when we embraced those ideals.

Stop lowering the bar. Compare our ideals to us; not to others. Unless, the others have already achieved 'our' ideals.

If you have a problem with the OP; explain why there is a problem and compare it to our ideals; not the FUBARs that happen in other countries. Compare to OUR ideals.

Stop lowering the bar.

THEN, we'll talk about 'honest understanding'.

[zigzagzed]

98. Being realistic isn't lowering the bar

Should we say that the only democracy that is not an illusion is the one that matches our ideals? Can we ever reach those ideals? If not, wouldn't all democracies then always be nothing but illusions. Should anything short of perfection be considered a failure?

I grant that most of us hold to different conceptions for how democracy ought to be. How then should we define "democracy"? What are the criteria to distinguish between "good" and "bad" democracies? Are we talking about strict dichotomies (i.e., black and white, binary conditions), or are we talking about points on a continuum? If so, where on that continuum is the cutoff between acceptable and unacceptable?

[Cerridwen]

99. It is when you compare an'other' to US.

Let me help with with the ideals of this country...which have rarely applied to ALL but to which, in theory, WE have aspired...

Compare *us* to these:

We the People of the United States, in Order to form a more perfect Union, establish Justice, insure domestic Tranquility, provide for the common defence, promote the general Welfare, and secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America.

We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness. — That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, — That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness. Prudence, indeed, will dictate that Governments long established should not be changed for light and transient causes; and accordingly all experience hath shewn that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed. But when a long train of abuses and usurpations, pursuing invariably the same Object evinces a design to reduce them under absolute Despotism, it is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such Government, and to provide new Guards for their future security. — Such has been the patient sufferance of these Colonies; and such is now the necessity which constrains them to alter their former Systems of Government. The history of the present King of Great Britain is a history of repeated injuries and usurpations, all having in direct object the establishment of an absolute Tyranny over these States. To prove this, let Facts be submitted to a candid world.

edit because I love commas.

[zigzagzed]

112. More perfect compared to what?

To goal of forming "a more perfect Union" necessarily implies a comparison: more perfect compared to what? Where we were as colonies? Where Great Britain was in 1776? Were others were then or are now? "A more perfect Union" should be a rallying cry of progressives as we move forwards, but we still must compare it to something.

The Declaration of Independence specified broad categories rather than specific criteria. What does it mean to establish justice, insure domestic tranquility, provide for the common defense, promote the general welfare, and secure the blessings of liberty? How can these things be measured and how can we know when we are successful? What are the metrics?

The further "into the weeds" we go, the more disagreement we're likely to have. Regardless, "a more perfect union" implies that our goal is progress towards an ideal, not an ideal itself. To use a geometry analogy, the line along which we progress requires two points: where we are and where we're going. The Declaration of Independence, vague though it may be, is where we're going. But how do we determine where we are if we don't compare ourselves against where we were and where others are?

[Greyhound]

121. I would so love to get you in one of my classes. You have degraded the very definition of sophistry

with this nonsensical blather.

You owe an apology to everybody that suffered through this sorry attempt to bolster the utter absence of logic you displayed in your 'argument'.

Granting an 'F' would be generous.

[theFrankFactor]

110. god I hate your babble.

That's all. I just had to say it.

[westerebus]

123. Thanks Frank.

You saved me the electrons.

[mia]

90. K&R - Reminds me of the " Allegory of the Cave".

It's safer to stay chained and look at shadows on the wall than it is to face reality.

Here's a short video.
http://platosallegory.com/

[LawnLover]

92. Here's the thing: it has NEVER mattered.

This country is no different than it was 200 years ago. We were just as corrupt, just as ethically bankrupt, and our politicians were just as much in the pocket of special interests as they are now. It's just more out in the open now because we can send a message around the world in milliseconds.

Resources get sucked dry, then they're either replenished or new resources/technology takes their place. We still have brilliant minds, hard workers, and the rich assholes who exploit both. Today's Dancing With the Stars is yesterday's $64,000 Dollar Question.

Yet we've managed to function more or less as a society and do a lot better job at it than many countries. The democratic party is not and has never been our saviors. It is a tool we use (when we're very, very lucky) to protect some of the things we care about and create laws that support our ideals.

People wept for our country during the devastating Depression. I wept for my country when students were shot at Kent State. I wept for my country when the Republicans staged a bloodless coup in 2000 and proceeded to take us to war and systematically rape this country. Those who moan about how awful it is now seem to forget those times -- or never experienced them first hand. Yet we've managed to carry on. And in many ways get BETTER.

I complain about a lot of shit, but I refuse to let myself be overcome by this unnecessary doom and gloom.

Love him or hate him, things in the country have improved under Obama. Disasters set up by the previous administration have been averted and things will only get better in the next several years.

Sorry to rain on your pity party, but I think this country could be a LOT worse off than it is now. I know. I've seen it and lived it. And I'm still here to remember it.

[zigzagzed]

93. Agree (n/t)

[demwing]

100. I don't appreciate either of your attitudes

The primary attitude, which is so full of dramatic fail and woeful resignation that it is painful to read, nor your initial attitude, where you scoff at the rest of us poor fools who haven't attained your level of wisdom.

Is our country in trouble?
Yes.

Is it too late to save the US?
Doubtful, but even if the sun has set on America, democracy will live on.

Fear, greed, and hate are emotions. Emotions wax and wain, live and die, rise and fall.

Democracy is an idea. Ideas cannot die, even if they go unused for a thousand times one thousand years. They simply lay dormant. Ideas are immortal.
Democracy is immortal.
Freedom is immortal.

[MrMickeysMom]

126. Sometimes you gotta say what's true...

even if it can somehow be changed.

When an administration acts like this, I call them aiding and abetting war crimes.

Is it too late to save that criminal act?

[JohnyCanuck]

102. I agree, K&R n/t

[mix]

104. Don't give up.

The late 19th century, the Gilded Age was bad too, if not worse...so were the late 20s...and many progressive reforms were initiated.

But I agree it is dead, for now.

[rasputin1952]

105. I am always interested when I see posts like this...

Single frames never really put the entire picture together, how quickly we look to something like the Federal Government and rarely if ever at how a democratic republic works and the local, county and state issues we vote for often have major changes in our little corners of the country. The worst thing is that we rarely get over 50% of registered voters to actually cast a ballot, so complaining about corruption is rendered moot when half of the voting population even takes the time to vote in major elections. There are entities out there that actually count on low turnout, there are groups that have a mission to statistically figure out just what groups will stay away from the polls...and people stay way for a variety of reasons, the biggest of which is apathy.

We did not lose our democratic republic, we are in the process of giving it away. No one but the voters who sat out elections are to blame. We lost the House because D's did not show up at the polls. For all of the talk of Gerrymandering districts, it still comes down to who sat out the election. This is not an "excuse" it is a cold, hard fact.

As in the comic strip "Pogo", the quote is as apt today as it was then, "We have met the enemy, and it is us". We are our own worst enemy. My son took over 40 people to the polls this past election. That shows me what the youth can do. The D vote here in Nebraska rose slightly, and that is a positive. I stay on the heels of my elected officials offering praise when it is due, and condemnation when it is due. I believe in proactive citizens, citizens who will not be sheep led to slaughter and it takes more than being on a website, it takes work and a lot of it. I talk to people around here, hard core R's that are disillusioned in the what has become of their party and D's that still have hope things can change. Over the years, I have taken people to courthouses to change their registrations and register for the first time. To date, I can claim 74 changes from R to Independent, 14 from R to D, and have taken 79 people to register for the first time, 3 said they registered R, and 76 registered D. That is remarkable for Nebraska, and there are more out there that will change. That is 161 people that see the GOP as the party of destruction. It took work and discussion to bring these people around to seeing that voting Republican is against their best interests, and I have more to go.

Talk to those you meet, discuss issues that are important, there is much more common ground than one normally sees. The GOP was resurrected because D's did not flood the polls. we have no one to blame but ourselves. So what to do now? Use your computer to e-mail your congresscritters, blow the dust off of a pen and write letters, the 44 cents you spend on on postage is well worth it. Inundate local offices with phone calls calmly expressing your dislike for what the GOP is trying to do. Work for change and above all do everything you can to be informed and cast ballots in every election. Stand your ground and never miss an opportunity to question authority. My House member hates to see me walk into a place when he turns up, and even R's at the meeting agree with me when I speak up and make these people account for themselves.

It's work and it's tiring, frustrating and rewarding. Stand up and be heard, it's the patriotic thing to do.

[johnnie]

106. Not for a long time

I've been amazed around here lately to see that people expected much different than what is going on.

[timdog44]

109. democratic illusion

I mean democratic (ill)usion. We are close to losing our democracy, but the right to bear arms continues. Our modern day gun is the internet. And via the internet we have Wikileaks. They are revealing that what our government is doing is contrary to everything that what a democracy does. We find that worm J Lieberman telling Amazon to not let its servers be used to host Wikileaks. Aren't we as important as that worm? Write Amazon. But do anything to let Wiki let it be known how our rights are being taken from us and how our "promised" next FDR is caving in to main stream government. The revolution has started and we need to support it. Don't let us cave in. Let us be revolutionaries. Power to us.

[defendandprotect]

118. We only ever had a dream of a democracy ... for one thing you can't have democracy ....

without economic democracy -- and capitalism certainly isn't that!!

It's the direct opposite of it ---

In fact, imo, it's an economic system which enables fascism!

Since time began the many have been struggling against the violence of the few --

In 1963, right wing political violence broke out into the open with the assassination of

our president which also took our "people's" government from us.

That's where this current dictatorship took control -- and where Democrats were so severely

weakened by targeting that they were powerless to investigate and tossed out of Congress.

CIA was involved, of course, in most of that -- then the GOP/NRA also targeted liberal

and moderate Democrats.

Move on to the GOP/"pro-life" community which begins to introduce organized crime and

actual murder against the women's movement and our laws.

GOP/"Christian Coalition" -- in 1980, GOP gave start up funding for it -- Richard Scaife

financed Dobson's organization -- and other right wing wealthy financed Bauer's org.

GOP/Swiftboaters -- quite a few attacks under their belts -- beyond the one on Kerry.

And right now the GOP/T-baggers compliments of Koch Bros. and oil industry --

NOTE -- a very disruptive force moving beyond usual right wing disruptions of debate --

as Buchanan's "Crossfire" once introduced it to us and now picked up by Faux News and

Glenn Beck -- and onto disrupting Democratic Town Hall Meetings -- and, imo, intended to

take us to new levels of violent speech and violent behavior.

The only way the right wing can rise is via political violence -- stolen elections - and lies.

They will continue to increase that violence because they benefit from it -- whether it is

the Drug War -- the violence shown on TV -- or the many assassinations we've suffered of

liberal and progressive leadership -- often even before that leadership rises!!


What Americans also have to understand is that the elites aren't really interested in business

and making money from it -- they're interested in connecting to teats of government when they

have to in order to syphon off taxpayer money in any way possible -- but they prefer to simply

own government, our wealth and our natural resources. And where labor is needed, traditionally

they prefer slave labor.

Take it seriously -- this is not conspiracy-free-America -- never has been.


And re this ...

I like this message board and I praise Skinner for relaxing some more rules to accommodate the extreme dissatisfaction many of us feel about our party and its leadership, policies and votes on certain issues. I get a lot of great information from several dedicated DUers on a daily basis.

We have not yet begun to discuss other possibilities and options open to us --

that has to begin to happen unless we are saying we are resigned to doing the same thing over

and aganin -- and expecting different results?






Patriarchy -- and its underpinning =

Organized Patriarchal Religion -- and its economic system =

Capitalism =

The Unholy Trinity

[Pholus]

119. Some tough thoughts indeed. But as my dad used to tell me, we've always thought the end was nigh.

Grew up on more than one story about how a head of cabbage could feed the family for a couple days.

Everything in the OP is in play right now, but we can and MUST continue the fight.

And yes, I am MORE than frustrated with the WH seeming to roll over all the time but you HAVE to hope and continue to try to make it right.

Once in a while you can surprise yourself...

[Joe Fields]

128. Yes, but then came FDR.

I wish I could see an FDR in our future...

And yes you are right. Without some kind of hope, then what can there possibly be to look forward to?

Grab your loved ones and hold on to them tight. Right now it is all you will have to get you through this ...

[Pholus]

139. And that *is* the problem. I expected to see an FDR here...

I got pre-emptive compromise. I'm going to give some mild props to the Prez, AT LEAST he got some kind of deal in return for rolling since it sounds like there will be votes on unemployment and START. Before that, it looked like he was rolling over for rolling over's sake.

Of course, an FDR would have spoken DIRECTLY with the American people on a daily basis. Whoever would carry him if it wasn't the M$M -- so much the better if it wasn't since it makes one of his points implicitly. He would have explained the stakes, about how continuing these tax cuts would cause us to go even more into debt with other nations like China and could end this great experiment in democracy. He would have recalled the American history of shared sacrifice in the face of adversity.

He would have talked about how his opponents would place politics above the business of the country. About how millions of you, your friends and your neighbors could face the holidays without unemployment insurance which was one of the pillars of our economic stability for generations due to spite. About how the world would be less safe if basic treaties like START cannot get through the ratification process.

He would have continued by asking if the American people honestly believe that obstructionism and the "No" mentality is really the kind of leadership they intended to send to Washington with the "shellacking" they gave. Ask them if they honestly understand the policies advocated by the republicans. Remind them of the government shutdown. Ask the American people if they really intend for our country to be powerless because of politics.

All for some tax cuts which (based on the House vote) are completely aimed towards the top 2%. The same 2% sitting on their cash rather than investing in our recovery. Rhetorically SEPARATE the republican base from their masters. Pile it on thick.

He would describe a nation on the brink and specify what policies he thought would bring us back from the brink. Some specific proposals selected from the many he's created, simply crafted to reduce the deficit (of which the expiration of the tax cuts are a major portion since the deficit closes BY HALF if they're gone). Hell keep it simple and say to avoid politics we're in this together, close the deficit by an across the board slash. *That* is compromise of a sort -- everybody loses something but the deficit is closed.

And tie the Republicans to EVERY BAD THING THAT HAPPENS IF THEY DO NOT CAPITULATE.

There was a reason FDR was considered a traitor to his class. And it would work.

-------------------------------------------

Instead, one of the most gifted orators of a generation talks about how happy he is to eke out a "compromise" with those who vow to destroy him.

[Fokker Trip]

122. Thanks to all the posters...

I have really enjoyed this thread because I have a tendency to become very gloomy about the future, to the point of paralysis. This is a tendency that I have been learning to control and threads like this help a lot. It gives me a chance to see how others think about some of the issues that we face, and to see hope while still acknowledging the problems that exist. Also realizing that there are always wild-cards and plenty of unknowns that will come along.

[MrMickeysMom]

124. I cry with you, Joe Fields

KnR

[mckara]

127. We Have Hope as Long as the Constitution Exists...

Clearly, the people must be more desperate for change before there will be a restoration of democratic values and the rule of law. Opportunities will continue to exist in the words of the Constitution for an engaged people seeking to restore the virtues of liberalism. It merely takes activism of the part of our citizenry.

[demwing]

132. Then you always have hope, because the truths found in the Constitution

don't depend on the Constitution.

They are self evidentiary, and eternal. Burn the Constitution, forget it was ever written, or declare it dead and void. It doesn't matter.

The power of the Constitution isn't in the paper or the ink, it is in the ideas that are represented therein.

Therefore, you can always have hope.

[Goldstein1984]

130. Well written.

I used to save U.S. Savings Bonds.

Now I save gold coins, dry good and ammunition.

As soon as the cheap beer gives out, it's going to get ugly.

[Pholus]

141. Let me add to your list.

Brewing goods.

You'll get more gold coins, dry goods and ammunition as people want more cheap beer....

[farmboxer]

131. Not Democracy, it's a Plutocracy

We will never get real reform.

[live love laugh]

142. I cried some time ago. I've traversed the stages of grief. No more tears. nt