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bigtree Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-04-10 01:25 PM
Original message
The dishonesty about the tax cuts has to stop
Edited on Sat Dec-04-10 01:35 PM by bigtree
I just saw Ed Shultz argue that if the President just allowed all of the Bush tax cuts to expire, Congress could just come back next year and negotiate a new middle-class tax cut. That's either a delusion of his, or he's deliberately misleading viewers just to make like he's tougher or smarter than the President; or, to have something to shout about.

There is ZERO chance of republicans, in this Congress or the next republican-House-hobbled one, allowing a middle-class tax cut to pass cloture and advance into law on its own. All republicans care about in this debate is finding a way to point to the President and say that he's raised taxes. They don't care if the cuts expire, they just want to bash the President in this election year for 'raising taxes'. The only thing they'd like better than allowing some portion of their rich buddies' tax cuts to survive is to have a political issue to run with. He can holler, stamp his feet, point his fingers, whatever . . . republicans are comfortable with any of that because they don't have to lift a finger to suit their own political purposes.

I believe that, if they could, they'd craft a bill that would force a veto out of the President just so he could be seen as ending tax breaks for, not only the rich, but, for the millions of middle-class taxpayers affected. These republicans have NEVER shown any interest in at all in the middle-class. Claiming that there's some possible way that the next Congress would produce a better tax package than any negotiated now is an amazing omission of the glaring fact of a pending republican-dominated House which will do nothing but send doa legislation to the Democratic Senate, daring them to vote against it and daring the President to oppose them so they can put it in a campaign commercial somewhere. There will be ZERO chance for a free-standing, middle-class tax cut in the next Congress, so Ed Schultz can't credibly use that as an argument against negotiating a compromise now.

The other dishonesty on the tax cuts is in the way the President's motivations are characterized by critics on the left. President Obama is fighting for middle-class tax cuts. That's the first and most significant part of what he's said on the extension of the Bush tax cuts.

The second thing he's asserted is that the nation can't afford a permanent extension of the upper-class tax cuts.

from his radio address at the beginning of the month: http://www.whitehouse.gov/the-press-office/2010/11/06/weekly-address-president-obama-calls-compromise-and-explains-his-priorit

PRESIDENT: ". . . the last thing we should do is raise taxes on middle-class families. For the past decade, they saw their costs rise, their incomes fall, and too many jobs go overseas. They’re the ones bearing the brunt of the recession. They’re the ones having trouble making ends meet. They are the ones who need relief right now.

So something’s got to be done. And I believe there’s room for us to compromise and get it done together.

Let’s start where we agree. All of us want certainty for middle-class Americans. None of us want them to wake up on January 1st with a higher tax bill. That’s why I believe we should permanently extend the Bush tax cuts for all families making less than $250,000 a year. That’s 98 percent of the American people . . .

I recognize that both parties are going to have to work together and compromise to get something done here. But I want to make my priorities clear from the start. One: middle class families need permanent tax relief. And two: I believe we can’t afford to borrow and spend another $700 billion on permanent tax cuts for millionaires and billionaires.


This Congress is going to act on the tax cuts, no matter what President Obama does. That's not something the President has much control over at all. It's not hard to envision this Senate (and even more, the next) holding up anything the lame-duck House manages to pass to advantage their upper-class cuts. It's also not hard to imagine enough Democrats in the Senate letting them. There are already a few on record in favor of some extension of the upper-class tax cuts.

If he does agree to a temporary extension of the upper-class tax cuts as part of a deal to get an extension for middle-class tax cuts that won't be a capitulation or proof that he wants to give a break to millionaires - it will be a compromise to preserve those middle-class tax rates that he says are his first priority.

He has his veto pen and could certainly veto any compromise the Senate sends him, but he'd be working against what he said earlier this month is his 'number-one priority' of permanently maintaining the extension for the middle-class if he vetoes such a deal and allows them both to expire. He'll not have much leverage in this debate other than that veto; and that would likely to be overturned anyway by the vast majority of legislators who will not allow taxes to be raised by their votes anytime soon.

Further, White House negotiators are pushing to include several 'Obama tax cuts' as part of any compromise and there's a good chance that will happen. Even the two Democratic tax bills voted on in the Senate today contained some of those tax cuts and incentives. Among them: (http://blogs.abcnews.com/politicalpunch/2010/12/administration-pushing-to-add-the-obama-tax-cuts-to-the-bush-tax-cut-negotiations.html)

* The Alternative Minimum Tax;
* The Making Work Pay Tax Cut – this is the “invisible payroll deduction” – the part of the stimulus bill everyone said the White House should have just written big checks for;
* The American Opportunity Tax Credit (higher education tax credit);
* The Earned Income Tax Credit;
* Extenders for the Research & Experimentation tax credit;
* Bonus depreciation (expensing) – this doesn’t expire but the White House thinks it’s good for the economy;
* The HIRE Act – a tax credit for hiring people;
* Build America Bonds, which changes the tax treatment for municipal and state financing, allowing them to raise money for projects; and
* Energy tax credits (solar and wind energy tax credits are set to expire).

“Over two years these provisions will have nine times the economic impact as the high end Bush tax cuts,” a White House official said of the Obama tax initiatives.

The President's commitment to lowering middle-class tax rates over the objections of republicans has already been demonstrated in an historic way in the passage of his stimulus bill that republicans are angling to dismantle.

from PolitiFact: http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/statements/2010/jan/28/barack-obama/tax-cut-95-percent-stimulus-made-it-so

PRESIDENT: "We cut taxes. We cut taxes for 95 percent of working families. We cut taxes for small businesses. We cut taxes for first-time homebuyers. We cut taxes for parents trying to care for their children. We cut taxes for 8 million Americans paying for college."

____ The tax cut was part of Obama's campaign promises. During the campaign, Obama said he wanted $500 for each worker and $1,000 for working couples . . . During the campaign, the independent Tax Policy Center researched how Obama's tax proposals would affect workers. It concluded 94.3 percent of workers would receive a tax cut under Obama's plan based on the tax credit to offset payroll taxes. According to the analysis, the people who wouldn't get a tax cut are those who make more than $250,000 for couples or $200,000 for a single person.
____


President Obama is fighting for an extension of the Bush-era middle class tax cuts to fulfill his campaign promise to prevent any increase of middle class taxes during his term. He's facing a lame-duck legislature that doesn't have enough votes to pass either the upper-class tax cut or the middle-class tax cut extension on their own. That political equation is just going to get worse in the next Congress.

To allow them both to expire (by inaction or by veto) would, in effect, increase the tax burden on the middle class. It's one thing to argue that we could do without both (as some have), but it's another thing entirely to frame the acceptance of an extension of the upper-class cuts in exchange for an extension of the middle-class cuts as some capitulation. The fact is, the President is fighting for those middle-class tax cuts. That's why he's negotiating. That's why he's taking the heat from critics in his own party and pressing forward, nonetheless.

The President is fighting for an extension of the middle class tax portion of the Bush tax cuts. The republicans are fighting to preserve the Bush cuts in some form or fashion; or, they'll settle for the political result of the President and the party walking away and just letting all of the tax cuts expire. That's not going to happen because the President is committed to ensuring that the middle-class tax cuts survive this Congress. He certainly knows he won't get a thing he wants on taxes from the next one.
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Hello_Kitty Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-04-10 01:30 PM
Response to Original message
1. Except that the tax cuts to the rich won't really be temporary. Let's get that straight. eom
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Enrique Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-04-10 01:31 PM
Response to Original message
2. the dishonesty is the idea that the tax cuts are necessary
that has never been the Democrats' position, pre-Obama. I never heard anyone on DU criticize the democrats for unanimously voting against the Bush tax cuts when Bush proposed them.

The current line that we CAN'T let them expire is political posturing.
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bigtree Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-04-10 01:44 PM
Response to Reply #2
9. maybe, but middle-class tax breaks are what the President is still fighting this fight for.
We disregard politics when it comes to taxes at the risk of losing elections. I don't remember the economy being in this condition when that debate was taking place during the Bush term. I could be wrong on that, but there's certainly a strong economic incentive to not allowing millions of Americans to see a drop in their income right now.
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Enrique Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-04-10 01:49 PM
Response to Reply #9
11. Obama's tax cut position is from the primaries
before the economy crashed. His tax policy is political, not economic.
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bigtree Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-04-10 01:53 PM
Response to Reply #11
14. plenty of economists have argued that their expiration now will further strain the economy
Edited on Sat Dec-04-10 01:54 PM by bigtree
Everything they do is political, so, I really don't know what the import is of that distinction.
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WhaTHellsgoingonhere Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-04-10 07:55 PM
Response to Reply #2
25. That, and the fact that it was a huge part of Obama's campaign platform
Edited on Sat Dec-04-10 07:55 PM by WhaTHellsgoingonhere
Do DUers or Dems have to say anything until the promise is broken? We were under the impression that he took a hard-line stance here. The outcry from DUers and Dems is a response to his inaction. That didn't become apparent until recently. Hence, it hasn't been a big deal until now.
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bigtree Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-04-10 08:03 PM
Response to Reply #25
26. One promise would be kept, the promise to keep middle-class taxes from rising
Edited on Sat Dec-04-10 08:04 PM by bigtree
If you take into account the record tax cut the President provided already in his stimulus bill for 95% of Americans, it makes no sense to expect him to easily veto the existing level of middle-class tax relief away. There are plenty of pledges yet unaddressed and not yet achieved in the two years of this presidency. Keeping the one promise about preserving middle-class tax relief is important to most of the millions affected. The rest is going to remain a challenge to solve in his administration.
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ibegurpard Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-04-10 01:32 PM
Response to Original message
3. tax cuts for lower and middle classes only or tax cuts for none
those are the two options I will accept
If he tries to compromise on something else I will oppose him.
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Speck Tater Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-04-10 01:33 PM
Response to Original message
4. So who's going to stop the dishonesty? The Dems? Fat chance with the wusses we have representing us.
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Motown_Johnny Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-04-10 01:35 PM
Response to Original message
5. I think his point is that this does not need to be done by 1/1/11
and the way it is being reported on it sounds as if that is a deadline


You may believe that there is no chance the (R)s will accept a middle class tax cut bill but the possibility exists none the less.


Allowing the cuts to expire and then voting on different versions of a middle class tax cut bill in the Senate for the next year will make them vote against it over and over and over again.


Sooner or later we may peel enough off to pass it. It is worth a shot and we only need to win once.
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bigtree Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-04-10 01:38 PM
Response to Reply #5
6. they don't care if each and every one of those votes fail
. . . in the meantime, millions of Americans lose. You or I may well be willing to forgo those cuts on their behalf, but the President is committed to preserving those cuts.
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ibegurpard Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-04-10 01:42 PM
Response to Reply #6
8. then he needs to be opposed
tax cuts for middle and lower brackets only or tax cuts for none.
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OHdem10 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-04-10 01:41 PM
Response to Original message
7. Obama said the Middle Class taxcuts must not expire.
This puts a time limit.

In the end, it seems a negotiation will result in:
All tax cuts will remain in effect for everyone for
2 to 3 years. Democrats will get the Unemployment
Benefits extended for a year.

We are down to the wire. A decision has to be reached.

Now tell them to shut up about the deficit. This will
create as much debt as the commission would get rid of.
(sarcasm)

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Warren Stupidity Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-04-10 01:47 PM
Response to Original message
10. Yes of course. Concede this fight. We'll get 'em next time for sure!
Next time we won't give up!
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bigtree Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-04-10 01:51 PM
Response to Reply #10
13. what fight?
There's only a couple of options available to the President to preserve those middle-class cuts in this Congress or the next. Allowing them to expire isn't 'fighting'; it's cutting off his hand to spite his face.
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Hello_Kitty Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-04-10 01:54 PM
Response to Reply #13
15. Well I guess we know what the Official Talking Point(TM) is now
"He SAVED the middle class tax cuts! He NEVER promised to do away with the tax cuts to the rich so stop saying that!"

:eyes:
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leftstreet Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-04-10 01:56 PM
Response to Reply #15
17. +1
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ibegurpard Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-04-10 01:58 PM
Response to Reply #15
18. at this point the only way Obama gets my support is a veto
of any bill that includes reauthorizing tax cuts for upper income earners.
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bigtree Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-04-10 01:58 PM
Response to Reply #15
19. talking point or not, it's a fact that's been distorted to make political points against him
Edited on Sat Dec-04-10 02:05 PM by bigtree
The only reason he's still fighting or negotiating is to preserve the middle-class portion of the Bush cuts. The only reason republicans are holding out is to advantage themselves politically by claiming the President wants to raise taxes.

Interesting how you're only willing to argue that only the President's motivations are 'talking points', not his critics. All of that nonsense doesn't change the fact that his first priority in this debate is that those middle-class tax cuts continue.
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Warren Stupidity Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-04-10 01:55 PM
Response to Reply #13
16. As I said. Concede this fight. As always. And then pretend that
we will stand up next time.

It really is pathetic.
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bigtree Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-04-10 02:03 PM
Response to Reply #16
20. like I said, it depends on what 'fight' you believe he's waging.
It's not a 'fight' to step back and let the middle-class tax cuts expire. But, I'll tell you what. If he does let the middle-class tax cuts expire, he'll be 'fighting' all the way into his next term to see them restored. To the President (and others) that just isn't worth the increase in taxes on millions of Americans that would occur in the interim.
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kestrel91316 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-04-10 01:50 PM
Response to Original message
12. The ONLY thing Repukes care about right now is "bleeding the beast"
until they can drown it in the bathtub. To that end, they spend their days monkeywrenching the system.
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MadHound Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-04-10 02:56 PM
Response to Original message
21. I was wondering how folks were going to defend Obama's latest betrayal
Thanks for letting me in on it.

This is, of course, just spin and bullshit designed as a CYA for Obama. The fact of the matter is that Obama did promise to end the Bush tax cuts for the wealthy, not just permanently, but to end them period.

Yet he is poised to once again break a promise of his, this time a promise that he built his campaign around. He is, again, refusing to fight for the policies that he promised to enact, and is again, compromising away the best interests of this country and our people.

You can spin this however you want, but the facts prove you wrong. Just as with the public option, Obama is willing to forget his promises, willing to sacrifice this country's well being, all for a handful of magic bipartisan beans.

The man is quickly becoming an utter failure because he simply won't fight. That is what the people in this country want and need, somebody in the White House who will fight. If he would fight, he would find that we would back him. But it is hard to have somebody's back in a fight when that person walks away from the fight time and again.
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bigtree Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-04-10 07:18 PM
Response to Reply #21
22. first of all, I'm not 'folks'. I'm one guy with one opinion.
Edited on Sat Dec-04-10 07:35 PM by bigtree
The President can't possibly do everything at once. He also promised he wouldn't let middle class taxes increase in his term. Interesting how many 'folks' are so willing to see him break that promise by speaking for the millions of middle class Americans who would see their taxes rise if the breaks are allowed to expire. Also included in the negotiations is an extension of the unemployment benefits. You may well want to pretend like there is some magical way the President could bully Congress into considering and passing these things on their own, but that's more than spin; it's sophistry. There is no chance for a middle-class tax extension in this Congress or the next without some sort of deal with republicans. You may well want to speak for millions of Americans and argue to let those middle-class tax cuts expire along with the rest of them, but the President is committed to a middle-class tax cut extension. If a compromise emerges with a middle-class tax cut extension, the President will have fulfilled one of his promises. It makes no sense at all to excoriate him for failing to complete the other one. He can't possibly do everything he needs to at once, especially when he has to decide between raising the taxes of 95% of Americans and denying republicans their pet tax cuts in some form. You want him to fight, He is, He's fighting to preserve the middle-class tax portion of the Bush cuts. You may well not like the price of that in the end, but it's undeniable that the President is pushing for a extension of tax cuts that affect the vast majority of tax payers. That's his motivation for continuing to negotiate after the Senate's failure to achieve cloture on their free-standing bills. Not the 'fight' you might have wanted him to wage, but it's a fight on behalf of 98% of Americans. You can't 'spin' that away.
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MadHound Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-04-10 07:35 PM
Response to Reply #22
23. This isn't fighting, it's caving
And if you can't see the difference then you are politically blind. Look at the polls, the vast majority of people don't want the rich to get their tax breaks. Just like they want DADT repealed and wanted the public option, all issues that have seen Obama back down from the fight, or worse yet, break his promise.

Furthermore this goes beyond politics, but to the economic well being of our country. Larding hundreds of billions of dollar onto our debt load results in higher interest rates, an increased cost for government borrowing and guess who will have to pay for that? Oh, yeah, us.

Which do you want, a bump of a few hundred dollars on your tax bill, or implementation of austerity measures to rival Greece's? We've already got the deficit hawks flying around SS and Medicare, wanting to cut those Democratic programs, if we go further into debt it will simply mean two pounds of flesh instead of one. Is that what you want for the weakest among us to face?

It is past time for this president to stand up and fight. He is not powerless, though too many like to pretend he is. If he hadn't rolled like a whipped pup early in his administration, we would be much better off today. If he continues to roll like a whipped pup now, we will be much worse off in two years. It is past time for him to step up and fight.
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bigtree Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-04-10 07:49 PM
Response to Reply #23
24. Interesting how you reserve the 'caving' smear for the President
Edited on Sat Dec-04-10 08:13 PM by bigtree
The republicans won't get all they want in a compromise, but you won't type a word about them 'caving'. The economics of our country is certainly important, but there isn't any stimulus or remedy which is more effective than putting money (leaving money) in the hands of the 95% Plus Americans who are subject to the tax increase if their middle-class portion of the Bush cuts is allowed to expire, The rest is certainly important to reign in, but that shouldn't be done in a way which puts added pressure on the millions of Americans affected by the economy you're advocating addressing through the ending of the upper-class cuts.

The President is standing up and fighting. He's fighting for middle-class tax relief, instead of just sitting in the White House dishing out rhetoric which would amount to nothing but his veto and the end of the middle -class tax breaks. I think that would be irresponsible and the President agrees.

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bigtree Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-04-10 09:31 PM
Response to Original message
27. kick
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bigtree Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-05-10 09:07 AM
Response to Reply #27
28. kick
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