I have heard at least 10 people say the Tax Cuts for the rich is the "Last Straw"

[KansasVoter]

These are random friends and people I work with who are dems.

Basically, if Obama caves on them, then they are done. And I feel the same way.

Polls show 60% of the people oppose the tax cuts for the rich. If we can't make a stand on that what will we ever make a stand on?

Does Obama and his staff have any idea how big a deal this is for the future of his administration?

[aquart]

1. How come the White House doesn't know this?

[atreides1]

3. They probably do

But, either they won't act on it, are too chicken shit, or just don't give a damn.

[alterfurz]

59. all of the above...

...plus some are complicit.

[Rectangle]

165. Relax--He's playing 57 dimensional "Star Trek " chess!

:eyes: :sarcasm:

[Recursion]

26. Because their polling apparatus is more sophisticated...

... than "some guy on DU talking to his friends".

[Ramulux]

40. Thats why they did so well in the midterms

The white house obviously knows EXACTLY what its doing.

[bahrbearian]

41. Obama's polling apparatus consist of

Geither, Summers , Boner , McConnell , Limbaugh , Grumpy and all the other great Patriots.,

[sudopod]

72. Is it 11 dimensional polling? nt

[prodigals0n]

106. If their polling apparatus was as sophisticated as "some guy on DU talking to friends"

The country would be better off than we are with whatever polling apparatus they have now.

Their idea of sophistication so far seems to be limited to futile, embarrassing, and ever more damaging attempts at bipartisanship with a party that considers that word just another name for date rape.

[verges]

111. And I'm a different

person in a different region of the country and have encountered the same.

[JDPriestly]

113. Polls indicate the public does not want the extension of those tax cuts.

[Recursion]

164. But they do want unemployment benefits extended

And the only way the GOP seems willing to do that is by extending the tax cuts.

[Lorien]

35. They do. But if you prefer having the unpopular repugs in power

then how is it a bad thing? Obama is turning out to be the opposition, not just the weak kneed wimp that can't stand up to it.

[TorchTheWitch]

36. they do - senators were showing polling data in their speaches

And from what I recall in watchin on C-SPAN it was somewhat higher than 60% that wanted an end to tax cuts for the rich.

[rhett o rick]

47. You cant be serious. They know, but dont care. They are owned by big corporations. End of story. nm

[RufusTFirefly]

171. +1000

Rhett is right on target.
A lot of people would avoid a lot of hand-wringing if they would only come to terms with this fundamental truth. It's so obvious once you accept it.

[LiberalEsto]

90. La la la la - they don't hear us

and they're not even trying to listen.

[WinkyDink]

91. Money talks, especially for post-WH life.

[CrispyQ]

99. "...post-WH life."

I'm beginning to think that's all his run for the presidency was about -- a nice cushy future for him & his family.

[Lorien]

119. Plus checking "President of the United States" off his bucket list

it really does seem that shallow these days.

[ThomThom]

145. yes

he is toast and so are the Dems
The repugs have the money advantage and the liberals are going green or staying home.
burnt toast at that

[WCGreen]

167. You mean like Palin.....

[HowHasItComeToThis]

157. DUH

[DesertFlower]

2. i don't want him to cave, but i know

he doesn't want to break his promise to the middle class. i'm glad i don't have his job.

there's probably a lot of middle class people who are barely getting by with house payments, etc. i don't want to see their taxes go up, but i don't want the rich to win again.

[young but wise]

5. That's exactly how I feel. It's a no win situation.

[JDPriestly]

115. $250,000 per year is a lot of money.

That is not middle class.
If you are earning $250,000 per year and don't have lots left over at the end of the year, you are not managing your money well, and you need to start living on a budget.

The extra tax would only be on the top portion of the amount over $250,000.

[bluestate10]

169. $250,000 is not a lot of money.

Like everything else, Obama threw that number into the air during the campaign. A more reasonable number would have been individuals earning $400,000 per year and couples earning $550,000 per year. Anyone above those levels would have the Bush tax cuts canceled.

A two couple, two child household earning $250,000 is doing ok, but they are not living excessively. I have personal experience. I am single, but my income is near that area. I drive a normal car, live in a normal house, eat out infrequently and buy normal clothes. My job does not require me wearing suits or pressed shirts and ties normally, but if I needed special clothing, that expense would further reduce my well being.

[bluestate10]

170. $250,000 is not a lot of money.

Like everything else, Obama threw that number into the air during the campaign. A more reasonable number would have been individuals earning $400,000 per year and couples earning $550,000 per year. Anyone above those levels should have the Bush tax cuts canceled.

A two couple, two child household earning $250,000 is doing ok, but they are not living excessively. I have personal experience. I am single, but my income is near that area. I drive a normal car, live in a normal house, eat out infrequently and buy normal clothes. My job does not require me wearing suits or pressed shirts and ties normally, but if I needed special clothing, that expense would further reduce my well being.

[gateley]

177. Bump it up to $1 mil like Schumer proposed, but that doesn't

address the Unemployment benefits barrel they have us over. :grr:

[JDPriestly]

178. Depends on what you call : normal, doesn't it?

$250,000 certainly is way above average. The average income is far, far lower.

The median income in the US in 2009 was $49,777. 20% of $250,000.

Sorry, but $250,000 is really a lot of money, five times median income.

[Greyhound]

125. At the end of the day $250K, after all taxes is a take home of $2,600 - $3,100 per week.

If that isn't enough to get by, you are living well beyond your means.

This is often the result of ignoring prices and buying payments, and that's just how they like it.

[julian09]

159. That taxable $ 250,000 is not on the gross

but after all deductions for, dependants, charity, mortgage interest etc.

[Greyhound]

166. No, but I wanted to be as conservative as possible to head off the inevitable

whining from the authoritarians.

I used my former overtaxed status as a single, home loan interest single deduction, high income earner. After federal, state, property taxes and fees (under Clinton) I was paying about 46%.

[juajen]

129. Most of the "middle class" do not even know they had a tax decrease, it was so small.

This is not about the middle class as most of them agree that they would rather give up their decrease than see the rich get one.

[DesertFlower]

155. i didn't notice it. seems we always owe the feds

more money than was withheld.

[bluestate10]

176. The middle class tax cut was another strategy miscalculation by the Obama administration.

The cut should have come as a check each year. That is the only thing that Joe and Jane Sixpack will notice, a $780 check in their mailboxes instead of $15 dollars more in their pay per week. With the $780 check, they can go out and buy, with the $15 per week, they don't notice.

[obxhead]

4. Obama is clearly intelligent enough to know this.

The question in my opinion is does Obama and his admin care?

It was clear he did not care with the PO. For many that was a final straw.

[calimary]

6. This is something I'm not sure about. I don't doubt his intelligence. Not at all.

But it's the vermin and the rahm emmanuel people and the "move to the right" people and "just keep trying one more time to appease the GOP, one of these days it's just BOUND to work" people who surround him. It's THEM, I think. Assholes who'd rather switch than fight, probably because many of them want jobs with the enemies' benefactors. Who's the budget guy who just announced he's going to Wall Street? And he's just the one we know about. They're all looking out for themselves because they know they've probably got only two years left.

[obxhead]

10. I can't give Obama that pass.

He is POTUS. He obviously has the ability to speak of what is morally right and wrong, which means he knows what right and wrong are. He can replace anyone that steers him in the wrong direction. Failure to either ignore them or replace them rests squarely on his own shoulders.

[juajen]

131. Either he leads, or he can't lead! I'm tired of excuses. NT

[ThomThom]

150. don't forget who is in charge, the buck stops and all that

don't make excuses for the man he abandoned us long ago
the stimulus was a cave
the heath insurance reform was rigged
holding big business accountable for the failed economy did not happen
yes we got a few small concessions but really it is business as usual and has been all a long

[Kablooie]

80. He lives in the presidential cocoon and hears what his minions tell him.

He may not know.

[obxhead]

109. If that's the case then he's half the man I thought he was.

He's the POTUS for goodness sake. He can get hold of any information he is interested in finding out. If he's not interested in what the people he represents think then he needs to resign from office immediately.

[Kablooie]

116. I get the impression that he has become half the man we voted for.

The horrendous pressures of his job have ground down his resistance, unfortunately.

[Name removed]

7. Deleted message

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[boston bean]

8. Why did the dems wait until after the elections to have this vote. It could have been done prior

an in fact it was delayed until after the elections on purpose, to help blue dogs, who went down in flaming defeat.

[rhett o rick]

43. If you have to ask that question, you must still be in denial. nm

[julian09]

161. Still eight blue dogs to euthanize

then we can have a real democrat party. They count as dems but vote as repug obstructionists.

[polichick]

9. Polls showed as many people wanting the public option - didn't matter. nt

[liberal N proud]

11. But here is the problem - the GOP has him over a barrel on this

If he allows the bu$h tax cuts to expire for everyone, then the GOP will most definitely use that against him from now through the 2012 election.

If he caves, the rich get to keep soaking us for everything we have and people like you and your friends will alienate him.

He can't win for fucking losing!!!!!

[KansasVoter]

14. At least I want him in front of the media every day calling out these assholes.......

and not acting like it is just politics. Where is the fight I thought I would see from him??

[rhett o rick]

20. There is no decision here. There is no dilemma. There is only one morally right thing to do and he

knows it. That argument can and will be used by the 'cons for every issue and Obama still might lose in 2012. He has to start doing whats right for the people. And if the people cant figure it out, he would lose anyway.

[Individualist]

21. Hear, hear!

[jefferson_dem]

66. So the thing to do is call their bluff, call them assholes, then watch all tax cuts go away?

Is that the grand plan?

[rhett o rick]

75. Absolutely. No tax cuts for the billionaires under any circumstances.

They are terrorists and there is no negotiating.

[ThomThom]

153. the next congress will just put them back unless he veto's

can they over ride? probably?

[veganlush]

139. The plan should be

1. Call a prime time news conference preempting some popular show.

2. Using charts and graphs and others visuals, show how the republicans used reconciliation, over the objection of Democrats, to force through the Bush tax cuts.

3. Using charts and visuals, show how the ten year tax cut experiment was an utter failure in terms of job creation.

4. Remind everyone that Obama's tax cut of 2009 was the largest in history.

5. Remind everyone that many Republicans said that the stimulus package , including THE LARGEST TAX CUT IN HISTORY created zero jobs. In other words, they admit that the largest tax cut in history also failed to create jobs.

6. Using charts show how Reagan was the father of modern deficits, and they have been grown since by tax cuts to the rich.(except during the Clinton years, when rates were higher)

7. Show charts that prove that when the top rates were much higher, the country prospered and the economy was stable.

8. Remind viewers once again that the Democrats opposed the tax cuts to begin with, that the Republicans with Boner, etc, pushed them through with reconciliation, recap the damage they have caused, remind them that the Democrats still oppose them.

9. Ask for the support of the American people in ending this deficit and debt growing insanity.

[BREMPRO]

144. i'd settlle for just a prime time press conference. when was the last time he did that?

I don't understand why he doesn't use the bully pulpit of the press conference and his communication skills to push his agenda. It's baffling and frustrating. Take it to the American people!- not behind closed doors negotiating with terrorists (republicans). He has polling, economists, american people (even a majority of republicans) behind him and he's willing to "compromise" to make everyone happy. That's not leadership. Maybe he just doesn't have it in his DNA to lead, only negotiate. This is not change we can believe in. If he can't win on this one- take it to the mat, i'll lose a lot of respect for him.

Last straw...

[adamuu]

124. That's exactly right n/t

[nckjm]

27. Then this is his personal moment of truth

He knows in his gut what is best for America and for the 98% of people who live as the middle class, the working poor, the impoverished or disabled. It's time for him to write his name in history according to his own inner compass. This is an historic moment...his selflessness emerges or it's his Waterloo.

[liberal N proud]

30. Another Waterloo?

How many does he get?

[emulatorloo]

34. If you were him, what would you do?

Republicans won't let any bill without those rich peoples tax cuts get to the floor for a vote.

I suppose one scenario would be to veto any bill that contains with top 2% cuts, and then tie them up indefinately in the next years Senate.

[rhett o rick]

39. I am so glad you asked. I would assume I was a one term president and do what was right for the

people and let the chips fall where they will.

[paulk]

44. let them all expire

then introduce legislation in the new Congress to reenstate the middle class tax cuts. And keep doing it for two years if it doesn't pass...

[emulatorloo]

104. That's not a bad idea. That's a great idea.

[SOS]

143. A variation on your idea

Let them all expire and pass a two year payroll tax holiday on the worker share.
This gives every person under $106,000/year an automatic 7.5% pay increase and it won't help billionaires in the least.

Robert Reich has been promoting this idea.

It's a good idea, but the Senate wouldn't pass it.
Might actually help someone other than Lloyd Blankfein.

[veganlush]

146. yes

Robert has been Reich about this

[sendero]

89. Well for starters, and I mean STARTERS.

.... he could call a press conference and spell out exactly what is happening, why it is wrong and why he needs all of us to call their senators and say "no more free ride for the rich".

That's BASIC STUFF but he won't even do that.

[emulatorloo]

103. The problem with a press conference right now is press would be in "Skip Gates" Distraction Mode

ala

"wikileaks-tsa-wikileaks-tsa-wikileaks-tsa-wikileaks-tsa" diluting the focus from taxes.

[Marr]

123. I would start talking to the public about class warfare.

I would announce my intention to create the Obama Tax Cuts (wholly concentrated on the working class). When Republicans refuse to bring the notion to the floor, I'd be on tv and radio every day saying that I'm trying to give working Americans a tax cut, but the Republicans are blocking it because their wealthy pals aren't included.

Let the GOP defend that position. It'll be bad for them even *before* the old tax rates go back into effect. After that, it would be devastating.

Giving the wealthy more tax cuts would be hard on the economy. Letting the old tax rates go back to normal will be hard on some working class people. It's going to be hard either way, so you may as well generate some political steam out of it.

That's what I would do. I expect Obama will extend all the cuts for two or three years, and the GOP will blame him for all the subsequent problems because he didn't make the cuts permanent and left the wealthy feeling "uncomfortable".

[emulatorloo]

32. The main problem is that Republicans will not vote for Cloture

on any bill that doesn't include the top 2% tax cuts. I wish Obama could make them do that, I don't know that is in his power.

So he is between a rock and a hard place. It is still going to piss me off if and when it happens. But honestly I don't know what he can do short of blackmail.

[rhett o rick]

42. He must stand firm for the people and not cave in to the R-con's. nm

[jefferson_dem]

67. So "stand firm for the people" means watching middle-class taxes go up?

That's not a very convincing case there.

[rhett o rick]

76. And just who do you think will pay for the $800 billion that goes to the wealthy? nm

[Recursion]

84. What about the 3 trillion the middle class will start paying? (nt)

[juajen]

135. Link, please, for that figure that the mc will be paying? Nt

[Recursion]

163. Seriously?

It's 3 trillion over 10 years for the middle class, 700 billion over 10 years for those making over 250K.

http://www.usatoday.com/money/economy/2010-12-05-1ataxcuts_N.htm

The White House and Congress are close to deciding whether to extend the Bush tax cuts beyond Dec. 31 and impose new income restrictions or time limits. Keeping them all would cost about $3.7 trillion over the next decade. Eliminating them for income more than $250,000, as President Obama wants to do, would reduce the cost to $3 trillion.

Got it?

[rhett o rick]

77. Standing firm with the re-con's isnt very convincing either. Why are you? nm

[populistdriven]

83. too bad, it is truly the last straw for me

[jefferson_dem]

88. Well, that settles that then.

Good day.

[juajen]

134. Obviously, he lets them all expire and blames the pugs for the blackmail. NT

[Lorien]

37. No, they don't He can nail the GOP to the fucking wall with this

a one year extension on unemployment benefits in exchange for PERMANENT tax breaks for the people who are breaking the Country? Are you kidding me? He could BURY the GOP with their anti-Christian transparent greed! He could make them look like the most selfish and inhumane traitors to the Nation imaginable...but nope; he'll give them what he wants because he's one of them. This is all just theater, nothing more.

[Raksha]

64. Of course he could nail them to the wall with it!

And if he doesn't, it's because he CHOOSES not to.

PERMANENT tax cuts for the rich in exchange for a ONE-YEAR extension of unemployment benefits??? What kind of a "deal" is THAT?

[Lorien]

117. I'll bet that he'll "compromise" it down to a six month extension of unemployment benefits

I hate being so pessimistic, but the bar is THAT low right now.

[Enthusiast]

98. Nice post, Lorien. nt

[howmad1]

132. Ya gotta hand it to the rethuglicans:

Picking Obama to run as a democratic in 2008 was a stroke of genius. Since it's becoming embarrasing being a democrat, I just may become a rethuglican so I can be considered part of the group that destroyed the democratic party. Genius, I tell ya.

[juajen]

137. Yep, and nobody believed us when we said pugs were crossing

over to vote for Obama to defeat Clinton. It happened all over the place according to pugs I knew right here in Louisiana, and also according to relatives who actually did it in Texas.

[Leftist Agitator]

174. Do you really think that Her Royal Clintonness would have been any different?

If you do, you should check out this killer bridge that I have that just happens to be for sale...

[BlueCheese]

56. Why can't he blame them for the tax cuts expiring?

The way Clinton successfully blamed the GOP for the government shutdown?

The facts and the public are on his side? He will never get an easier or better chance to show the GOP for what it is--a party dedicated to the wealthy.

[Recursion]

85. Well, he's gone on TV and done that

Not sure what else you want him to do in that regard.

[BlueCheese]

180. Take a stand.

Call the GOP bluff. Make it seem like you're actually willing to fight for it.

Right now the press coverage is all about how the negotiations are going. If Obama were threatening vetoes, you can bet the tenor of the coverage would change quickly.

[liberal N proud]

94. The media is better prepared and trained to battle against him.

[Raksha]

63. No, the GOP does not have him over a barrel unless he allows it, or pretends they do.

People feel VERY strongly about making the rich pay their fair share. There was a poll here on DU last night of people who would personally benefit from a middle-class tax cut. They were asked if they would prefer to let ALL the Bush tax cuts expire (including for themselves), provided they ALSO expire for the upper 2%. When I last looked at it, 91% of the respondents answered YES!

Of course this is DU--the response might be different on a mainstream poll. But I bet it would be all THAT different.

[rfranklin]

108. I think that's the position to take...shared sacrifice for all...

Yes, it woukld be difficult for mnay people in the middle class but it would be a huge moral statement.

I think, however, if it is not coupled with a massive defunding of the military machine it will all be for naught.

[Enthusiast]

97. Any position Obama takes

will have the GOP using it against him. So he might as well do the right thing.

[CrispyQ]

101. If it's a no win situation then he should do the right thing.

However, I expect he will capitulate to the right.

[South End Liberal]

110. And if Obama & the Dems had stood firm on passing the middle class breaks...

on Saturday, then the Republicans would have had to either
(a) go ahead and vote for one of the two bills
or
(b) let the Democrats tell everyone from now until election 2012 that the Republicans are the reason the middle class taxes went up.

Instead, we have another back door "compromise" in the works that benefits Wall Street and the rich Congressional members most.

I am fed up with Democrats acting like watered down Republicans. That is NOT what we all voted for in 2008!

[ThomThom]

151. he can't lose if he makes a stand, I think you are wrong

he should stand for the right thing even if he doesn't get it
tax cuts for the rich is a loose loose all around
tax cuts for middle class people is a win win all around
but really it is already too late the republicans with their big spending friends will bury the dems from here on out until a real depression hits and people wake up to the suffering that will be their life
we let gwb in the white house, he appointed the supremes and everything is cooked now

[malaise]

12. When did polls matter

Didn't Cheney say neither polls nor deficits matter. The corporations run America - read the Citicorp paper on plutocracy.
It's over Boehner is right - we are chicken shit.

[DesertFlower]

18. you are right. we no longer

live in a democracy. the greedy corporations run our country.

i am so f----- angry.

[Mz Pip]

13. It really does bother me

because, I too have heard this.

And while I don't see any of the people I know who are bothered by this voting for republicans, I do see the possibility that they will just throw their hands up in disgust and not vote at all.

Personally, I'd like to see all the tax cuts expire. People who are poor or unemployed aren't going to be affected and people like us who are middle class might see a slight increase but not enough to lose sleep over.

I think the issue that makes me mad is not so much how this will or will not affect rich people, but that Obama and the Democrats seem to be letting the Republicans control the message. It's frustrating to see an issue that would be an easy win for us end up in the dustbin.

[arcane1]

15. How are they defining "Obama caving"?

I presume that means if a tax bill reaches his desk that includes cuts for the rich, he doesn't veto it, regardless of what else is in the bill?

I hope they'll have equal outrage toward those in congress who pass tax cuts for the rich, and vow to primary the hell out of them, too! I'll be right there with ya!

[asjr]

16. I've been a big Obama supporter and I have

tried my best to keep upbeat. I want to think Obama has a trick up his sleeve that he has not played yet, but my hopes are beginning to dim. The Republicans are hyenas. They want to chew on everything that is good for the country and to hell with everyone else.

[polichick]

17. Polls showed as many people wanting the public option - didn't matter. nt

[malaise]

19. Bingo

:hi:

[Recursion]

29. It polls great until you talk about how to pay for it

And then enthusiasm starts to go way down. Congress members didn't have the luxury of simply supporting it without finding a revenue source for it, which is why there was such a disconnect between the generic poll question not tied to revenues and the reality of what happened.

(Insurance companies, incidentally, loved the idea of a public option; it was hospitals who opposed it because they're already losing so much money on Medicaid and don't want a repeat of that.)

[rhett o rick]

45. Crazy logic. We fight wars w/o knowing how we are going to pay, why

not health care? And, incidentally, insurance companies do not like the public option. Show some sources for your claims please.

[OrwellwasRight]

52. not true.

public option was a saver. actually made the whole package cost less. and AHIP did NOT want it. they didn't want low cost competition.

http://voices.washingtonpost.com/ezra-klein/2009/09/cbo_a_strong_public_plan_saves.html

http://www.tnr.com/blog/the-treatment/exclusive-early-cbo-score-public-plan-its-good

http://tpmdc.talkingpointsmemo.com/2009/10/ahip-calls-public-option-a-roadblock-to-reform.php

http://tpmdc.talkingpointsmemo.com/2009/10/secret-ahip-talking-points-mandates-good-public-option-bad.php

research!

[eridani]

53. Please stop with the revisionist bullshit

Insurance companies were jumping up and down with delight when the public option was eliminated.

[Recursion]

58. Nope

Anthem lobbied for it.

[eridani]

79. LInk? I've got lots of links indicating otherwise

http://tpmdc.talkingpointsmemo.com/2010/10/daschle-admits----then-denies----that-white-house-agreed-with-industry-to-scrap-public-option.php?ref=fpb


In a candid interview with the Center for American Progress this afternoon, former Senate Majority Leader Tom Daschle acknowledged that the public option didn't survive the health care debate because of a "understanding" that the White House reached with health care industry stakeholders -- particularly with hospital and insurance company trade associations. But the White House has long denied this suggestion -- which was, until now, based mostly on speculation -- and within hours of the report's initial publication, Daschle, a close White House ally, retracted his statement entirely.

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/08/13/health/policy/13health.html

"Several hospital lobbyists involved in the White House deals said it was understood as a condition of their support that the final legislation would not include a government-run health plan paying-Medicare rates...or controlled by the secretary of health and human services. 'We have an agreement with the White House that I'm very confident will be seen all the way through conference', one of the industry lobbyists, Chip Kahn, director of the Federation of American Hospitals, told a Capitol Hill newsletter...Industry lobbyists say they are not worried (about a public option.) 'We trust the White House,' Mr. Kahn said."

[OrwellwasRight]

114. nope again

http://www.dailynews.com/ci_13398430

http://www.varight.com/health/anthem-bluecross-debunks-lies-in-last-sundays-times-dispatch-op-ed/

know your facts please

[SOS]

149. Nope?

Insurance Industry Contests Public Option
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2009/06/23/politics/main5106189.shtml

Public Option Divides Obama, Insurance Industry
http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=112094043

[sudopod]

73. "It polls great until you talk about how to pay for it"

That statement is full of derp.

BTW, I found your favorite book.

[woo me with science]

70. And opposing the bailouts, and the TSA crap.

We don't have a representative government anymore. They view us with utter contempt.

[rufus dog]

22. Unfortunately it would be the last straw for me.

And I defend the administration. Donated $1000, did calls, I will still support dems in the booth but won't give time or money.

HC was defensible, bs media fixation on Death Panels, more difficult to explain options to people while the Repubs are lying.

But this one is easy and is a MUST fight. Trickle down economics are a sham! The Bush Tax cuts led to the worst economy in almost a Century! Income disparity has reached pre Depression levels.

When I heard he went to Afghanistan I was fucking pissed. Pelosi delivered and the only way to get it through the Senate was to lay it all out, hit every friggen talking head show, schedule interviews with every nightly news program and lay out the case for only extending the cuts for those with AGI below 250k. (Although I believe they should all expire)

I am tired of negotiations by extending the olive branch. It was understandable at first to make a case that they refuse to work, after two fucking years with no concessions from Repubs the time is over. If they fight I will stand with them, if they cave, they stand alone.

[Catshrink]

24. +1000

[BrklynLiberal]

23. I have lost all hope for change.

[pokercat999]

25. Obama has got to know that not extending the tax cuts to the

rich will kill his chances for re-election. The corporate and elite money will dry up faster than a South Florida shower in July. He KNOWS! The question he should ask himself is "Do I really want to be re-elected, to what end?" My hope is that by mid-year he announces he will not seek re-election.

[Bobbieo]

31. The way things are going, I think Obama not seeking re-election would be best for the Dems. .

[Individualist]

33. Of course he does

Obama is the DLC/NDC seat holder, just waiting for a neocon to take over the Oval Office.

[Egnever]

61. LOL what nonsense

He crushed the comeptition last time arround in fundraising and he did it with mostly small donations. He doesnt owe elites a damn thing when it comes to being elected in fact he beat the snot out of them last time and will more than likely do so again.

[pokercat999]

184. LOL I suggest you save this inaccurate post for 2012...nt

[shanti]

28. although it would infuriate me

tax cuts for the rich isn't my "last straw". if the catfood commission cuts or otherwise messes with SS, THAT is my last straw!

[d_b]

38. the PO was my "last straw"

the freeze on federal pay was the last straw.

[rhett o rick]

46. Add me to the list. nm

[Jackpine Radical]

48. Oh, it'll help him pick up all those undecided votes.

Screw the left and their retarded ideas. Where else they gonna go?

Sarah Palin, Sarah Palin!!

[undeterred]

49. Waiting to buy tires today I heard four people say the same thing.

Which was every person I talked to.

[Swamp Rat]

50. k&r

[madinmaryland]

51. I've been getting beaten up for 30 years. What the fuck does another

shot to the groin matter.

It really has no bearing. We are and have been FUCKED for 30 fucking years.

[alcibiades_mystery]

54. What do you mean by "done?"

Is that like, you ain't voting next election?

:rofl:

I mean, what could "done" possibly mean for you? You've done nothing but trash Obama for the last year and six months. Will you be done with that? Done with what?

[Nye Bevan]

68. I was asking the same question. Does "to be done" mean to commit suicide?

To leave the country?

To vote Republican next time around?

To abstain from voting?

To refrain from making a financial contribution to Obama's re-election campaign?

Or simply to ratchet up the number of bitching and moaning threads?

[glitch]

55. Tax cuts for the rich AT THE VERY SAME TIME as threatened cuts to Social Security

and an appointed asshole calling seniors the greediest generation TWICE, seemingly blatantly taunting us to react.

Either they are absolutely befuddled by the beltway fog or they are intentionally provoking a perfect storm of popular fury.

[earth mom]

57. I'm finding it interesting seeing what "the last straw" is for people.

Some of us have been yelling our a$$es off for over 2 years trying to tell people that Obama is not for real.


You'd think most people would have cared when Obama gave the bankster gangsters free rein to steal even more TAXPAYER money.

Or

When Obama escalated the Wars within a short time of getting the "NO Peace Prize".

Or

When BP lied their asses off about the ECOCIDE they committed in the Gulf of Mexico and Obama covered up for them by going swimming and surfing near-but not in-the Gulf.

Or

When Obama authorized the Cat Food Commission to think of creative ways to steal OUR Social Security.



So, from what I've been reading around here the past few days, it comes down to Taxes and the Wikileaks "bombshell" (no surprise there) about Obama covering for Bush and Cheney.


Sorry, but I don't get why people didn't understand the truth about Obama from day one. :freak:

[Egnever]

60. Whats the truth about Obama?

cause all of your points were things that were totaly predictable if you paid attention to what the man said and wrote. None of it is a surprise. In fact he has yet to really surprise me. But then I actually listened to him and read his books before I decided he was the candidate for me in the primaries.

You on the other hand sound like you believed some fairy tale about him and I have no idea where you got that fairy tale from.

[juajen]

147. Yeah, and I remember clearly when BC got in trouble for even

mentioning the words "fairy tale" in one of his speeches against O. Even though I was bitter over the loss, I accepted Obama and prayed for the best. Unfortunately, he keeps disappointing me.

[glitch]

62. I think they did, but they bent over backwards give him the benefit of their doubts.

Contrary to what the :rofl:ers say ("you never loved him"), people really did try hard to excuse the blatantly neoliberal policies.

Plus it takes a hit to self-esteem to admit to being fooled and quite a few people aren't willing to take that hit.

[Blue_In_AK]

128. I never trusted him even during the campaign,

but I was willing to give him the benefit of the doubt. Sadly, he has lived down to my original fears.

He could still redeem himself in the next two years if he wanted to, but I don't see that happening.

[jefferson_dem]

65. You and your friends best prepare to be disappointed. The politics on this one are extra tough.

Matt Yglesias sums it up:

To achieve the most popular tax cut outcome, Dems need to credibly threaten willingness to implement the least popular: http://ygl.as/ftxAgv

http://twitter.com/#!/mattyglesias/status/11205195044233216


Nate Silver agrees:

Ultimately, I'm persuaded by Leonhardt (http://nyti.ms/eGX5dz) that the Democrats have a weak hand to play on tax cuts.

http://twitter.com/#!/fivethirtyeight/status/11218573758304257

[Hepburn]

69. Not necessarily in this order, but...

...my wants and desires are and were:

1. Medical care for all;

2. End of both wars;

3. Immigration reform;

4. Marriage equality/end DADT; and

4. Fair taxation ~~ the rich start to pay their own way.

So far...well, I think we all know what the Obama score card reads.

[Initech]

71. I'm pissed about the tax cuts, and I'm pissed about this TSA crap.

[TheWebHead]

74. if one side says

we're perfectly willing to continue the existing tax policy for everyone, the other side that is unwilling to budge and results in higher taxes for all will get the blame. Republicans could just go to the podium week after week saying that if we continue the tax policy we've already had the past 8 years this stalemate will end... when it finally does, they can claim victory. Getting it out of the way now removes it as an issue.

Not to mention those against leaving the tax policy as is have failed to make an argument that making a change to tax policy that constricts economic growth makes any sense when the Fed is doing everything it can with loose monetary policy to accelerate it. If 2 years from now the fed is tightening and raising interest rates to cool down the economy and inflation, and we've taken measures to lower deficits, the argument to raise taxes can be made on sound economic grounds.

[Honeycombe8]

78. What's your plan for how Congress can prevent the tax cuts for the rich?

It's not Obama's decision, of course. It's mainly the Senate's.

Have you considered a list of the Senators needed to pass a bill that passes the tax cuts for the middle class, extends the unemployment benefits, but ends the tax cuts for the rich?

I feel like you do...and I predicted this would happen, because of the elections. And I think it's a TERRIBLE idea, politically, because that would probably mean this issue would be key in teh 2012 election, which would fire up the Republican base, even if the economy is doing better by then.

Still...there has to be a way to accomplish this, when you've lost having both houses of Congress.

Sometimes people feel a certain way idealogically, but they don't think of it in practical terms. As in, how to accomplish it. I would like to be thinner...I can accomplish that. I would like to be a little taller. I cannot accomplish that, no matter how great an idea I think it is.

[Kablooie]

81. It hasn't been decided yet. I HOPE Obama will hold firm. Or he loses my vote.

[dpbrown]

82. This is what he campaigned on. His "No New Taxes" moment.

Just as G.H.W. Bush was a one-termer, because of his gaffe on taxes, so too may Obama be, if he screws this one up.

[NeoConsSuck]

86. If tax cuts for the rich

is not Obama's line in the sand, then he never had a line in the sand. And that goes for other corporate Democrats also.

[Scuba]

87. Yes, but nearly 100% of billionaires want tax cuts, and the government works for them, not you.

[bigtree]

92. well, that's certainly not going to be the entirety of the compromise

. . . and I predict a majority of Democrats will support the outcome which has middle-class tax cuts continuing and an extension of unemployment benefits.

You'll always get that reaction if you only focus on what republicans get out of the deal. That's what's actually occurred in this debate. Most critics can't be bothered to point out that the primary goal of negotiations from the WH and Democrats' point of view is to allow middle-class tax cuts to continue.

Of course, republicans won't get everything they want and they'll get some things they've opposed. Critics won't call that 'caving' though. That smear is reserved for our Democrats and our President.

[bettyellen]

118. wow sanity and a wider perspective. thank you, bigtree

[sendero]

93. I was done a long time ago..

... this would merely be confirmation of the obvious, Obama is, on matters economic, a typical right-winger.

[Enthusiast]

95. Polls I read yesterday show

nearly a majority of Republicans favor an end to upper income tax cuts. Allowing the tax cuts to expire is a winning issue for Democrats.

[lonestarnot]

96. K & R!

[treestar]

100. Another last straw?

This is starting to be like crying wolf.

They want the middle class tax cuts to stay. Nobody hates the rich that much, at least, not the vast majority of people.

[ElsewheresDaughter]

102. what last straw?...my camel fucking died several straws ago

[Lorien]

120. +1. nt

[salinen]

105. He lost me already

with HCR.

[Quantess]

107. It's because he's a fucking sell-out

who does what his owners tell him to do.

[LaurenG]

112. I would be fine if they all expired and we get unemployment back. nt

[ProudDad]

121. The BIGGEST "mistake" the Dems made in '08-'09

was NOT listening to George Lakoff...

But then, George is a hard-core Progressive -- and the Dems hate Progressives...

As Michael Moore (among others) have so rightly pointed out, most of the USAmerican people resonate completely with a strong Progressive, Populist program. They would have been a potent force that would have held the line from Jan '09 throuh Nov '10 -- would have swung the election in a different direction -- and we would NOT be having this discussion...

If the Dems had followed Lakoff's advice about framing...

If the Dems actually cared about We the People as much as they do about their campaign contributors and the oligarchs/representatives of the oligarchs that they have lunch and dinner conversations and with whom they party...they would have framed all of these issues much differently...

Instead, they've pretended to be impotent, scared sheep at the mercy of (Shudder, booga-booga-booga) the REPUBLICANS for the last 2 years...

Kabuki theater at its height...

[ProudDad]

122. And the FIX was in before the swearing in ceremony...

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=433x542663

[sirthomas66]

152. Copy that... I've only got a few posts so I won't elaborate. But some

things just never made sense.

[DontTreadOnMe]

126. ANY tax cuts for the rich is my last straw

All my efforts will move to a new primary candidate. I can't sit back and watch us slip further into a new Guilded Age.

[Lorien]

127. I've seen at least as many people say the same on FB this past week

my "last straw" was many straws ago, though.

[slay]

130. Many people, including me, have said it

here on DU. Everyone has just had ENOUGH of Dems enacting Republican policies - and more than that - it's representative of a pattern in which the Obama admin and Dems in congress WILL NOT FIGHT FOR US. I've had it. If they give tax cuts to millionaires - I'm done. I'll work toward electing a better Dem (which I THOUGHT I was doing with Obama - nice one Obama - you punk'd us all), or put my votes towards the most progressive candidate regardless of party - like Bernie Sanders.

[B Calm]

133. Even if that's the only way we can get unemployment compensation extended,

I say it's the last straw too!!!

No fucking bargaining with these no good bastards!

[cyr330]

136. Has anybody heard any kind of

coherent message coming from the White House or any other Dems regaring these tax cuts? If they can't get their fucking message out, then we're all screwed.

[HootieMcBoob]

138. I know it is for me

There has to be something sometime that you stand up for.
It makes me literally sick to my stomach and very sad.

[bettyellen]

140. but I really do think allowing the taxes to go back up on the middle class will put Repubs in the

whitehouse in two years. everyone I know - sadly- isn't talking about it, and will be furious and think he raised our taxes. Many of them think he already did.
Hard to fight with the stupid being catapulted right and left. He really is between a rock and a hard place here. The Dems message continues to be very muted on the press.

[Riley18]

141. They know we completely oppose extending the tax cuts

for the rich, but I doubt it will do us any good. They will just go through the motions and in the end hand the rich everything they already promised them. Everyone I know is against the tax cuts. I would rather give up any small tax cut I may have now if it means the rich also lose their huge tax cut.

Most of the people I work with who voted for Obama do not expect him to win a second term. This tax cut for the rich will be the final straw.

[bc3000]

142. Sounds like he's trying to cut a bad deal to disguise his caving

[TwilightGardener]

148. I don't have a last straw--as long as there's no one better waiting

in the wings, and I still give a crap, I'll always vote for the better candidate (D) and against the worse candidate (R).

[julian09]

154. A good candidate would not cave

When it's time to fight, but stand his ground, not throw in the towel before
he climbs in the ring. Too bad he gave so much ground, he has none to stand on.
The better candidate isn't the one who promises everything, then fulfills his opponents promises.

[technotwit]

156. Proposed TV Commercial

Music: Happy Days are Here Again.
Montage of Very Rich People partying with limos, champagne, cavier, etc.

On Screen Super: Tax Cuts for the Wealthy!!

Voice over: Unemployment will plummet! and unemployment benefit extensions will NOT be needed as we will have plummeting unemployment. It will have no effect on the deficit. It will help repeal unneeded and unwanted health care. But, maybe the tax cuts for the wealthy are too small. Imagine the booming economy if we cut taxes even more! Imagine what bigger tax cuts would mean. A budget surplus? Funding for a third war? No need for minimum wage laws?

[bowens43]

158. compromise on this is the last straw for me.

if he caves , and he will, I'm sitting out 2012. Why bother?

[4dsc]

160. Count me in.

[bluestate10]

162. reply

"Does Obama and his staff have any idea how big a deal this is for the future of his administration?"

At this point, I doubt that anyone on Obama's staff know how to manage policy. They constantly throw out trail balloons then let republicans fill in the blanks. Obama needs uber partisan, quick thinking, good with sound-bites, knuckle dragging mouth-breathers that can hatch and execute plans that will cut republicans off at the knees. Axelrod does not fit the bill. Jarrett does not fit the bill. The right people are people that know how to get real concessions out of republicans, if not, then what service or pet project to take from their states or districts, and have the guts to carry out any plan that is activated by republican BS.

President Obama has been a disappointment to me on so many levels. I expected a quicker thinking partisan President that had the backbone to stand up to republicans and stop them from damaging this nation more. What I see is a smiling person that throw out ideas, then don't fight for them with any vigor, at all.

[TwilightGardener]

168. I agree that he does need new advisors--I don't think the ones he has now

have been serving him all that well, from the HCR debate on. But I didn't expect Obama to be especially partisan. He is who he said he was--a consensus seeker who looks for ways to solve what he sees as problems. That's a personality trait that is often useful, but he needs someone to help him counter his impulse to avoid a nasty political fight sometimes, at crucial junctures. He needs another version of Rahm, but one who has more respect for the base and less respect for Republicans.

[gateley]

172. I think that would be Biden. nt

[TwilightGardener]

173. I think Joe is more pugnacious and ready to rumble, it's true.

[keepfreespeechalive]

175. Helping the Bush Six was the last straw

caving on taxes would just be the first public sighting of the camel with a broken back.

[defendandprotect]

179. I'm way past "the last straw" -- that was long ago ....

I'd RECALL Obama if we could -- but that would leave us with Biden who should also

go -- he's been encouraging Israel for a year now or more to attack Iran --

says Israel "would be justified" -- !!!

[BoneDaddy]

181. OH EM GEE!!!!

We should just slit our wrists and get it over with. Not that I am for tax cuts for the rich but so what if it happnens again? The sky will not fall, the oceans will not turn to blood and Jesus will not return. I read the level of horror and crying on these boards and I wonder if I am reading posts by adults or middle school children. The drama, the handwringing, the graphic self importance associated with "the last straw". It is comical.

[quaker bill]

182. Which is silly

because there will be another two years of straws.

[olegramps]

183. Well, something like 70% wanted a national health care plan. We got shit.

Wake up American Working Class and unionize. Then you will have the power to elect representatives that actually represent your interest. Until then you will continue to be the slaves of the wealthy. Obama is powerless to really make any significant changes even if he wanted to. As long as Congress is controlled by corporate interest their is absolutely no hope for a Fair Deal.