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Medieval England Twice as Well Off as Today’s Poorest Nations

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DavidDvorkin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-06-10 01:20 AM
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Medieval England Twice as Well Off as Today’s Poorest Nations
New research led by economists at the University of Warwick reveals that medieval England was not only far more prosperous than previously believed, it also actually boasted an average income that would be more than double the average per capita income of the world's poorest nations today.


http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2010/12/101205234308.htm

This is surprising about history, but it's also a grim reminder of just how poor today's poor nations are.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-06-10 01:24 AM
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-06-10 01:38 AM
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Lorien Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-06-10 02:22 AM
Response to Reply #2
4. Racist? that's not how I read it at all.
Ever been to a trailer park? I'd be willing to bet that most of America's poor are actually white and poor due to lack of education.
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muriel_volestrangler Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-06-10 05:10 AM
Response to Reply #4
5. This is about far worse poverty than trailer parks
It's about absolute starvation level poverty - the kind that gives you life expectancies at birth of 40 or under.

The figure of $400 annually (as expressed in 1990 international dollars) is commonly is used as a measure of "bare bones subsistence" and was previously believed to be the average income in England in the middle ages.

However the University of Warwick led researchers found that English per capita incomes in the late Middle Ages were actually of the order of $1,000 (again as expressed in 1990 dollars). Even on the eve of the Black Death, which first struck in 1348/49, the researchers found per capita incomes in England of more than $800 using the same 1990 dollar measure. Their estimates for other European countries also suggest late medieval living standards well above $400.


No, nearly all of America's poor live well above that level. There may be a few homeless people that badly off, but if you have a trailer to live in, then by definition you're better off than someone in Zaire trying to get by on $249 a year.
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burrowowl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-06-10 01:48 AM
Response to Original message
3. Yes, they could
hunt, grow their food, etc.
If the US collapses people won't even know how to grow food.
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cali Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-06-10 05:14 AM
Response to Reply #3
7. hunt? More likely they'd be hanged for doing so
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Demeter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-06-10 05:10 AM
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6. This is Silly
Medieval England didn't suffer from : overpopulation, extreme climate, colonization, resource depletion, drought, desert, invasion, rigid borders, restraint of trade, and the Church wasn't into total willful ignorance...
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muriel_volestrangler Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-06-10 05:25 AM
Response to Reply #6
8. Tell me you assumed the 'sarcasm' smiley was unnecessary ...
please ...
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social_critic Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-06-10 11:35 AM
Response to Reply #6
10. Exactly
Overpopulation in particular is a concern. On the other hand, medieval england did waste resources fighting civil wars, the french, and sending crusaders to the holy land. I've seen some very very poor people outside the US, and I'd say the common denominator is having too much population to live adequately on land they have already degraded, or is degrading due to climate change. Excess population then leads to warfare as they fight over the limited resources. This is why when we give foreign aid we need to make sure what we do leads to sustainable societies. Giving money to other nations in a way that encourages population growth without dealing with the consequences of such growth is almost criminal. All we're doing is setting them up for a very bad time.
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muriel_volestrangler Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-06-10 12:09 PM
Response to Reply #10
13. Problems medieval England did have, from the list in #6:
Resource depletion and overpopulation:

The produce of English woodlands was mainly underwood for fuel and other uses, with small oaks used for domestic building. Typical medieval timber-framed houses were built mainly of oaks less than 18″ diameter. Large timbers were in short supply, and were reserved for the great ecclesiastical buildings. The builders of Ely Cathedral in the 13th century had to use smaller roof timbers than planned, and the pine poles for the scaffolding were imported from Norway. Thin oak boards or wainscot for domestic building were imported from Central Europe.

Even from its low proportion of 15% in 1086, woodland cover shrank further to 10% by 1350, due to population increase. The Black Death of 1349 brought this to a sudden stop, and any woods surviving in 1350 had a good chance of surviving the next 500 years.

Throughout history, nearly all clearance of woodland has been for agriculture. Industry tended to sustain woodland rather than destroy it. Up until the industrial revolution, industries relied on coppice woodland for fuel. To quote Rackham (1990), ‘the survival of almost any large tract of woodland suggests that there has been an industry to protect it against the claims of farmers’. Such areas included The Weald, the coastal fringes of the Lake District, the Forest of Dean and the Merthyr and Ebbw Valleys. It was the agricultural areas of East Anglia, the Midlands, lowland Scotland and elsewhere where woodlands almost completely disappeared.

http://islesproject.com/2008/08/05/12000bce-present-a-brief-history-of-british-woodlands/


Extreme climate:

Evidence from ice cores suggests that the largest volcanic eruption of the last millennium occurred in 1258 somewhere in the tropics. Palaeoclimate models demonstrate that the stratospheric spread of a blanket of volcanic particles would have led to a significant summer cooling.

Contemporary writings from England note a long cool period from February to June 1258 and a very cold winter in 1260-1261. Severe summer and autumn rains caused crop failures throughout north-west Europe and in England this led to famine. A great pestilence struck the weakened London population in the spring of 1259.

Almost half (2323/5387: 43.1%) of the individuals studied as part of the Spitalfields project were buried within mass pits shown by a combination of stratigraphic analysis and radiocarbon dating to originate in the mid 13th century. Whilst famine and disease were no strangers to urban populations throughout the medieval period, it is highly probable that the suffering in the late 1250s was part of a global scenario brought about by volcanic activity.

http://www.museumoflondonarchaeology.org.uk/English/News/Archive/News07/MedClimate.htm


Restraint of trade: being a serf is being a bit 'restrained' in trade, I think. The king either sold monopolies on the main export trade (wool), or just reserved it for himself.

The Church wasn't into wilful ignorance - it just banned the Bible being translated into anything apart from Latin, and dug up and burnt the remains of anyone who produced a translation. No, they weren't ignorant at all. They just burnt people at the stake for heresy.

I'm still not sure what the problems with 'rigid borders' are meant to be. But the English coastline is pretty rigid, and the movement of the border with Scotland was pretty inconsequential, by that stage. :shrug:
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DavidDvorkin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-06-10 11:30 AM
Response to Original message
9. Gee, I thought this was mainly an interesting historical sidelight
But this is DU ...
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social_critic Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-06-10 11:37 AM
Response to Reply #9
11. It is an interesting historical sidelight
But as you say, this is DU. On the other hand, post it in a right wing site and you'll probably harvest wads of racist comments. People see what they want to see, I guess.
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Ganja Ninja Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-06-10 12:02 PM
Response to Original message
12. What happens if you leave out the royals from the average per capita income equation?
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