Forget Obama. He is likely to be renominated + win . Concentrate on Congress and the Senate 2012!

[saracat]

Obama isn't going to be our savior. He isn't going to use the bully pupit to push a progressive agenda. But we need him for judicial appointments. I would be happy at this point if that was all he did instead of enacting a Republican agenda. The most important thing we can do now as activists is work to take back the House and get a bigger majority in the Senate. And we must elect activist legislators this time around and the time to do this is NOW! The GOP are already lining up their candidates. We should be doing the same.
The presidency can take care of itself. We the people must take back Congress!

[ProSense]

1. "I would be happy at this point if that was all he did instead of enacting a Republican agenda."

Can you point to this Republican agenda?

[saracat]

5. Seriously? This is just deliberate obfuscation.

[ProSense]

8. Seriously,

where is the evidence?

[democracy1st]

49. she knows how to use google LOL,nothing but a Goldman Sachs admin!

[Beetwasher]

6. It Must Be Health Care For Millions, Consumer Financial Protection Agency

Lilly Leadbetter, Financial Reform and on and on. Yeah, typical Republcan agenda that they fought tooth and nail.

[leftstreet]

7. It's Health Insurance Premiums For Millions

and soon it'll be The Wealthy Persons Asset Protection and Tax Relief Bill

[Beetwasher]

10. Tell It To The Millions Who Didn't Have Any Insurance, Tell It To Elizabeth Warren

Tell it to those helped by Lilly Leadbetter and on and on.

[leftstreet]

11. How will millions pay insurance premiums when they have no jobs?

:shrug:

[Beetwasher]

13. Don't Change The Subject, Millions Will Get Health Care Who Didn't Have It Before, That's Progress

I guess if nothing happened, they would be better off. You know about the funding for community health centers, right? No job? You will be able to get health care at these centers for little or no cost depending your situation.

[leftstreet]

15. Millions will be fined by mandate if they can't afford the premiums

Well, I guess that's one way to raise revenues...

[Beetwasher]

16. Community Health Centers Will Provide Health Care For Little To No Cost

But since the legislation is not perfect, it's not good enough for you, so fuck everyone who will be helped by it!

I see you don't touch CFPA and Elizabeth Warren and Lilly Leadbetter and on and on...

[leftstreet]

21. HEALTHCARE FOR MILLIONS becomes POOR CLINICS FOR MILLIONS

...in less than 15 minutes

Jesus

[Beetwasher]

22. Why Are You Denigrating Health Centers That Provide HEALTH CARE For Millions? Man, That's Nasty!

You have evidence this is substandard care or is it just a vile, obnoxious smear?

You realize who championed these Health Centers in the bill don't you? Barney Frank. You got a problem with Barney Frank?

You also STILL ignored CFPA, Elizabeth Warren, Dodd-Frank, Credit Card Reform, Lilly Leadbetter...

[leftstreet]

26. These health centers sound great! So is this like single payer? SWeET!

[Beetwasher]

27. They Are Great, Too Bad You Ignore Them Because It Doesn't Fit Your Smear Campaign

Barney Frank championed them. I guess you got a problem with him too?

And you ignore Lilly Leadbetter, and CFPA and Credit Card Reform and Elizabeth Warren...

[leftstreet]

32. Lilly Ledbetter 2012 !!

:eyes:

It's 'Ledbetter,' not 'Leadbetter'

[Beetwasher]

33. Oooohh, Spelling Flame!!!! OH MY GOD!!!!!! HIDE THE CHILDREN!!!!!!

So IOW, you got nuthin' so you resort to a spelling flame!
Next, punctutaion flames!!! :rofl:

[leftstreet]

38. 2nd demerit

'punctutaion'

[Beetwasher]

40. More Spelling Flames!!!! LOL! Hey Look Everyone MORE Spelling Flames!!!!!

My, what an effective technique at debating a point! Ignore the discussion and resort to pathetic spelling flames! :rofl:

[leftstreet]

42. May I be excused now?

Ya got nothin

[Beetwasher]

43. No, I Want MORE Spelling Flames!!!!! And Then How About Some Grammar Flames???

Come on cupcake! We can then move on to dangling participle flames! Then perhaps you can make fun of my font?

[dflprincess]

45. Health insurance and health care are two different things

Most the bankruptcies in the U.S. are caused by medical bills & most of those bankruptcies are filed by people who have insurance and thought they were "covered".

Nothing in the Insurance Profit Protection Act guarantees access to care.

[Beetwasher]

48. There Are No Community Health Care Centers? Bernie Sanders Would Disagree

But you ignore that, just like you ignore credit card reform, Dodd-Frank, Lilly Ledbetter, CFPA, Elizabeth Warren...

You ignore these things because it doesn't fit your smear campaign.

[dflprincess]

51. Show me where it says everyone will have access to a community health center

and show me where it says the community healty centers will provide more that basic services. Show me where the act guarantees that people who need heart surgery or cancer treatments or a joint replaced or cataract surgery will get the care they need.

And financial reform? Please, reform would have been reinstating Glass-Steagall what we got is a pathetic attempt to fool the masses into thinking something has actually been done - the banksters, just like the health insurers, still have plenty of room to rob us blind

You ignore these things because you can't face the fact you were lied to.

[Beetwasher]

55. So It's Not PERFECT So Therefore We Should Have NOTHING!

And you continue with your smear campaign, ignoring all the good that's been done for so many. But it's not perfect, so it all sucks!

[dflprincess]

56. Except for a few crumbs, nothing is exactly what we got

We needed reform that would give access to care - you know, like people in civilized countries have. Instead all we got were mandates that require we continue to buy the same old crap from the same old crooks.

You may be okay with the massive transfer of public and private money into the pockets of the health insurers, but most of us are not. And if you think funding for the public health clinics won't be cut in the name of "fiscal responsibility" you're even further out of touch with reality than I thought.

When the good in the bill is weighed against the bad - the whole thing does suck.

[Beetwasher]

57. Tell It To The Millions Now Covered With Pre-Existing Conditions Or On Their Parents Plans To 26

The community health centers. CFPA, Elizabeth Warren, Lilly Ledbetter.

Yeah, we got nothing except for everything we got.

But you go ahead and ignore any evidence to the contrary of your smear campaign.

[dflprincess]

58. One more time

coverage does not equal care.

Sure, they may have to sell you a policy - but the price may be more than you can pay or the only way you can afford a premium is to accept a deductible that's so high you still can't afford to see your doctor.

Two things to remember. For adults, the pre-existing clause doens't go into affect for another couple of years. Secondly, not all the conditions the insurance companies call "preexisting" are chronic conditions. There are people whose current medical expenses are no higher than someone who has been healthy their whole life, but they had some kind of incident in the past the insurance crooks deem "preexisting" and use as an excuse not to cover them now.

Now, there is a "high risk" pool people can join now. Just for giggles, I checked out what is available in this category. The cheapest "coverage" available costs $400/month and has a $10,000 deductible. And, a person is only eligible after they have gone with out any coverage for 3 or 4 months. What a great deal that is - especially if what the insurance company calls "high risk" and what a doctor may call "high risk" are two different things.

As far as keeping the up to 26 year old on the parents' policy? Again, that only works if you can afford it. Parents where I work have been able to keep the child on their policies because Minnesota law already required it - but again, the kid still has to come up with the $1,200 deductible before the insurance pays a dime (and the deductible only counts if you're racking up expenses the insurance company deems "covered" items like an eye exam may not apply) and if the "child" is on their parents' policy, they can't have their own HSA or even contribute to mom and dad's

You just keep telling yourself that having coverage means you can get care. Just ignore all the out of pockets people still have to come up with and then you can pretend that "coverage" means something.

If you haven't seen it, I'd advise you watch "Sicko". If you have seen it, watch it again and this time pay attention.

[Beetwasher]

59. Just Because You Constantly Regurgitate The Same Bullshit, Doesn't Make It True

Community Health Centers ARE HEALTH CARE centers and the people who NOW have access to insurance WILL get care as well. Not to mention the exapansion in Medicaid and Medicare. But keep up your smear campaign! Maybe if you vomit your bullshit up enough, some shmo will lap it up.

Oh and I see you're STILL ignoring Lilly Ledbetter, CFPA, Credit Card reforms, Dodd-Frank and on and on...

[dflprincess]

60. Community health centers do not do open heart surgery

or provide cancer treatments. They're great if you need a flu shot, pap smear or a well baby check. They don't help so much when you need serious treatment.

Check the income limits for the Medicaid expansion - sounds great when you read it's 130% of the poverty level - until you multiply it out and find out that for a single person the cut off is just over $14,000/year.

Lily Ledbetter is a positive but it merely extends the time a person has to file a lawsuit. Beyond that, it does not really strengthen the equal pay laws.

The other bills you mention are equally weak - half steps that fool some of the people into thinking progress has been made even though they don't go nearly as far as the laws we had before Republicans and "new Democrats" decided to repeal the real protections we used to have. Wall Street is still running the show and has nothing to fear from this administration.

But you go ahead with and keep regurgitating your delusions about how "progressive" Obama is.

[Beetwasher]

61. Well Then, They Must Be Worthless! Scrap The Whole Thing!!! ROFL!!!

So again, it doesn't meet your perfect expectations so FUCK everyone until it does! How pathetically myopic.

And keep moving those goalposts!! :rofl: So now that it's apparent there IS ACTUAL HEALTH CARE involved, it's worthless because people can't get free open heart surgery!

Your obnoxious opinion on the other legislation is just as pathetic and worthless as your opinion on HCR.

[leftstreet]

2. When the party leadership is vulnerable, the party suffers

As a general rule

:shrug:

[ddeclue]

3. If it is up to me we will primary Obama and replace him with Dennis Kucinich

Alan Grayson or another real Democrat.

[MineralMan]

31. Neither of those two have a prayer of winning even a primary.

It's time to be serious, you see.

[saracat]

46. The point being, Obama doesn't matter. The presidency doesn't matter. We must

take back the peoples house for their to be a real difference.The presidency will take care of itself if we have a down ticket vote.

[Hawkowl]

50. W has proven you wrong

Sorry. The imperial presidency DOES matter. It is not that Obama is powerless, it is that he chooses to use his power to crush progressives and liberals and get them to support his rethuglican policies.

He IS the problem. He is the leader of the democratic party.

[saracat]

52. I agree it is NOT that Obama is powerless but as long as he does nothing to advance

the liberal agenda, he is meaningless to us. Concentrate on electing progressives to the House and senate. if an electable Primary challenger comes along fine but in my opinion, at this point, worrying about the presidency is not where to place our efforts. If we grab the down ticket vote, we can elect a different nominee as well, should one step forward.

[Hawkowl]

54. That is a viable strategy

You are advocating for a bottom up strategy. It is a much more difficult but ultimately a much more effective and robust route.

[MadHound]

4. First of all, the fact that you're willing to trade judicial appointments

For the ongoing economic destruction of our country is a sad statement about your priorities.

Second, while he will probably be renominated, I have serious doubts about him winning. At the rate that he is pissing off his core constituencies, he'll have scant support come 2012.

And let me ask you this, what good is taking back Congress if a 'Pug is in the WH. Better yet, what good is taking back Congress if all we get is the same weak, ineffectual center right coalition that we have now?

[saracat]

14. Where do I say we should get the "same weak, ineffectual center right coalition that we have now"?

We need to have more activists and progressives elected and we should be fielding them NOW.As for my priorities, we can't save our country from economic collapse with a GOP congress. And I am not "trading" judicial appointments at the expense of the economy.I am saying we shouldn't give away a really important asset.
If you have someone who can WIN the GE and someone who can beat Obama in the Primary, go for it. But as of this moment, no one is on the horizen.Should such a person appear, I would consider them myself . But right now, this is what we have got.
Every election cycle I see folks carried away with the presidential elections while giving scant thought to the congress and then we get results like we did in 2010. It is time to wake up and understand what is really important and where our efforts do the most good. And it isn't the presidential races.

[Jakes Progress]

9. Sad, but it is the best we can do.

Obama will be renominated. Whether he will win or not will depend on who the Washington and Wall Street power brokers want to be elected. I lean to him being re-elected because he certainly hasn't pissed off any of the powers that be.

Maybe that is the new argument. We have to keep the power elite happy so we can get the next four years and appoint more judges and really get things done. Keep Hope Al..........oh hell. Just do the best you can. We've been screwed before; we can take it.

[brooklynite]

12. So then, are your prepared to accept Centrist Democrats...

...in districts where Progressive candidates aren't viable?

[saracat]

19. Progressives can be framed to WIN , in those districts. Messaging is everything.

If voters in Mass can be persuaded to elect Scott Brown, voters in centrist/GOP districts can be persuaded to elect Progressives.

[brooklynite]

20. But Scott Brown IS a Centrist...

...by Republican standards, and as a consequence will likely be primaried by conservatives for being "too liberal". If they'd run a Sharon Angle or Christine O'Donnell tea-partier, Martha Coakley probably would have pulled out the race.

[saracat]

24. It is still messaging. Angle and O'Donnell were obvious nuts.

Coakley didn't have a great messaging team. I am not from Mass so I don't know but I also assume the GOTV wasn't the best. People need to VOTE. And VOTE DEM.

[NotThisTime]

17. You don't know if he'll run, and I seriously question if he'd win if he did...

[Tuesday Afternoon]

34. +1

I do not look for him to seek a second term.

[saracat]

47. I don't know or care.The Presidency can take care of itself if we have the downticket votes!

[VMI Dem]

18. I don't think he is likely to win at all.

He will be renominated though.

[progressoid]

30. yep - he's going to have to do something spectacular to get out of this slump.

At this rate we're going to have a President Gingrich or Pawlenty or some such shit. :puke:

[Individualist]

37. Agree. He has alienated many who voted for him in '08.

[saracat]

44. That may well be. I also have made that point but theissue is, it doesn't matter.

We have to move forward despite him, with or without him.

[karynnj]

23. Excellent idea and in fact, if we do what is needed for Congress, the votes will be there for Obama

Why?

If we get Democrats out and motivated to vote for their Congressperson and/or Senator, they will presumably vote for President. This requires good local parties. Also, the Senate will likely be difficult - these are the Senators elected in 2006, where our wave was better than any predictions. That means there are likely many Senators going for a second term, who are at risk.

With Obama, the good local parties will help, but how well he does will likely be more under his control than anything we could do would impact - other than getting out the vote.

[saracat]

28. Exactly. We need the down ticket voters. The top will take care of itself.

[izzybeans]

25. Finally.

Blame and reform congress if you have some major woes.

Seriously.


Obama can't save you and don't wait for him to do it. Congress is where it's at (it meaning: power). But don't stop there work for progressives at all levels of government. The republicans not only routed us at the federal level they took over many local democratic strongholds as well. These people control your lives more than that 'dastardly' Obama. :he says the word 'dasterdly' as he strokes his Geraldo-like 'stache:

[saracat]

29. You are correct about "ALL levels" They "shellacked" us all

in most state as well. The GOP votes and supports the down ticket because it leads to control of everything. We need to do the same. We cannot just play presidential politcs."All politics is local" and to think that was "our" mantra!

[izzybeans]

41. If we don't start thinking strategically now

we will lose the next generation of lawmakers up and down the board.

I've tried in the past to make the same point. Yours is being met with a bit more positive response. There are too many people too busy fighting to notice on most days.

There is a big window of opportunity right now to swing our party back to the left. There are some signs from the last election that seem to point there. The blue dogs got routed.

People love talking about "liberty" in this country without any tangible definition or any actual linkage to some real policy. If anyone should own that word it is the liberals and yet there are the tea party people using that word in the memos they received from the central office...

[laughingliberal]

35. K & R nt

[somone]

36. Obama is likely to win renomination, but not reelection

because the GOP learned their lesson and they will not nominate Palin

[gort]

39. The real battle is in the Judiciary

The fright wing has committed a Silent Coup over the years by stuffing the Judiciary with True Believers. This is also why we must not abandon the Democratic Party and take it back on all levels.

Nearly all of Obama's judicial appointments to the Federal Bench have been held up by the right wing fanatics. We cannot let this stand.

Be a real Democrat and stand up and fight for our country's future.

[sabrina 1]

53. I agree completely and said so many times before the 2008

election. Presidents no longer represent the people. They appear to be in the grip of the Corporate state. But Congress is reachable by the people. All the focus and donations should go to progressive democrats so that the few who actually do represent us, Bernie Sanders et al, have a lot of help in the future.

[Little Star]

62. Saracat, I have a question for you.....

It seems to me that while we held majorities in both houses plus the Presidency most of the congress followed/caved to the Presidents agenda except for the Blue Dogs sometimes.

I don't believe he has not been leading. I believe he lead both houses in the direction "he" wanted them to go. Sad to say, I also think he did a smashing job of it!

If Obama is still President what's to say anything will be different?

[saracat]

63. I believe if we give him a different kind of majority we can influence a turn to the left.

I think Obama will do what ever benefits him the most.But I think a progressive majority for a second term wouldprevent any rightward shift from being a disaster. Aa activist congress would stand up to a Lame Duck President.At least I hope so.