I watched IN COLD BLOOD again last night. A question: after they stole the car in Iowa,

[raccoon]

why did the killers return to Kansas City, Kansas, to come up with some money writing bad checks? Why didn't they do that in Indiana, Nebraska, or Missouri? Looks like it would have been less risky.

***Disclaimer before I go on***
I know it's easy for me, or anybody else to be a Monday morning quarterback and say, "Well, the crime victims should have done so-and-so," or "I would've done this." Nobody knows what they would do in any situation until they are in the situation. And when one is dealing with robbers, muggers, etc., the perp has the element of surprise on his side, the victims don't. I believe the Clutters, like most crime victims, were doing the best they could in a terrifying situation. ***/end disclaimer.


Another question, I think one reason the Clutters didn't resist the intruders was because of Bonnie Clutter's state of health. She had had issues with depression. (The degree of her issues is debated.) They all, especially Herbert Clutter, didn't want to make it any more difficult for her than it had to be.

Another thing was that in 1959 Americans were not as accustomed to hearing of senseless spree killings, mass murders, serial murders, people going postal, as we are these days. I think the family believed that the perps would, after robbing them, just leave the house.

Anyone else?

[AngryAmish]

1. Used to be people would not accept out of state checks.

[raccoon]

2. Thanks, Amish, I shoulda thought of that. all I could think of was in those days

they didn't have personalized checks.

[AngryAmish]

3. Really?

I did not know that. Typesetting was expensive. Even when I got my first checkbook 25 or so years ago I had my name on them.

[raccoon]

4. I remember in the late 1960's, early 1970's I was using checks from my bank.

THey said, "Such and such Bank, City, St." but everyone who had a bank account there used them.

[H2O Man]

5. Classic movie.

It's used in almost every training I attended regarding psychopaths. In fact, the scenes where Dick is passing the checks, and buying Perry's "wedding gifts," are prime examples of a psychopath who believes he is so slick, that he can't be caught.

[raccoon]

6. He was a slick one, all right. I think it would be easier for the average person to recognize Perry

as being dangerous rather than Dick.

What field were you in when you saw this training? PM me if you want.

[H2O Man]

7. Forensic psychology.

Perry was easily recognized as an anti-social criminal. Dick was far more dangerous, though. Perry would not have killed, if he hadn't been influenced by a psychopath.

[raccoon]

8. If Dick had come into some money, or been born into it, think to what heights he might have climbed!

edited to add: :sarcasm:

You know what I mean.

[raccoon]

9. H20man, would you go into this in more detail?

I can see how with Perry, what you see is what you get. Whereas Dick is a wolf in sheep's clothing. Anything else you would like to add?

[H2O Man]

14. Dick manipulated

everyone that he came in contact with. As he spent so much time with Perry, the majority of his manipulation was focused upon him. The most important example of this was Dickl's telling Perry that he had murdered a man. Perry saw Dick as his role model, and wanted to be like him so much, that he was willing to kill. (I'm reminded of Charlie Manson telling his followers that he had murdered a "Black Panther," a drug dealer named Crow who actually survived. But it unlocked the potential for some of his groupies to commit murder.)

There was another point in time when Dick and Perry were prepared to kill for gain. They were hitch-hiking, and planned to murder the next person who picked them up. By chance, heavyweight boxing contender Cleveland "Big Cat" Williams came upon them; the pair decided that the huge man would be a dangerous target. That they passed up on a ride with Williams shows that they were selective in picking targets.

While Dick was "slick" on the surface, it was because he was an ultimate slime. He intended to rape the teenaged Clutter girl when the opportunity arose. But Perry stopped him. He had what is known as the criminal code of ethics. Unfortunately, that did not preclude him from going into a rage, which rather than aiming at Dick, he took out on an innocent family.

When they were first caught, Perry attempted to blame Dick for the actual murders. This was in part because he was outraged that Dick would rape a teenager; he also recognized that he had been played, and that Dick was more than willing to put all blame on him. Perry was a dangerous person, yet it is clear that he had a terrible, violent childhood and suffered from a delusional disorder. While this in no way excuses his violent crimes, he is far more of a sympathetic character than Dick.

In a DU e-mail to you, I mentioned a local case, where a psychopath from Kentucky got two friends to travel to upstate NY to rob and murder a contractor. The victim's girlfriend was also tortued and murdered. The psychopath selected a Perry-like character, who had been severely damaged by his experiences in Vietnam, to commit the brutal acts. The third character was a simple, anti-social crook. On their ride back to Kentucky, the third fellow was freaking out, because of the terrible brutality he had witnessed. So the pschopath shot him, and left him in a ditch, in order to leave no witness.

Within 24 hours of the discovery of the victims in NYS, my uncle solved the crime. My oldest daughter and I are thinking about writing a book about the case.

[edbermac]

18. Don't recall Dick telling Perry he had killed a man.

In Cold Blood is a favorite book of mine. It was Perry who told Dick he had killed a man in Vegas to impress him, which he later admitted was a lie. And Perry didn't not blame Dick at first. He denied their involvement until he was told by detectives that Dick had confessed Perry did it and even mentioned the Vegas killing. Perry then confessed that he killed the two men while Dick killed the two women. He would later admit to detectives that he indeed killed the whole family. I have the book at home but haven't read it for a while.


on edit: I think the simple reason the family didn't resist was that they were unarmed and the kllers had a shotgun and a knife.

[H2O Man]

19. Yep, you are right.

And, as is my habit, when I make a mistake, it's a stupid one! Thank you for correcting me on that. It was Perry who lied about killing the guy, and Dick thought he had his muscle.

Perry broke early. Not at the first second, but without the investigators having to invest any significant energies. But you are again correct, in that at first he denied everything. That is to be expected.

[CTyankee]

10. As a forensic psychologist, do you think that the killers in the CT home invasion

are similar to these killers?

We just went thru a scalding experience with the trial of Stephen Hayes, whose lawyers claimed he was "weak" and influenced by the more evil Komarsajevski. IMO, the CT killers are far and away more evil that Dick and Perry. But, I suppose killing is killing...it just seems like they were more cruel to their victims...

[H2O Man]

13. Yes, this case

is similar.

I'm not a psychologist, just a lowly, now retired, social worker. (DU does have an experienced, insightful forensic psychologist, though, JackPineRadical.) A large part of my job at the mental health clinic involved forensics, hence my interest in psychopathy.

In the "In Cold Blood" case, Dick wanted to rape the teenaged girl. Perry stopped him. Most anti-social people have some type of criminal code, where psychopaths/sociopaths do not.

The CT case, I think, had a compounding factor of substance abuse/addiction, that gave license to the sub-human rage that resulted in torture before murder. I'm not suggesting that anyone who abuses "drugs" poses a risk to rape and murder. It was something already in these individual's makeup. Likewise, it was in Dick's. Perry's code of ethics put the brakes on Dick's impulses; the CT killers went forward with their sick impulses.

[CTyankee]

16. Hayes' attorney actually said Hayes "reluctantly" raped Mrs. Pettit because

of Komarsajevsky's evil prodding (Komarsajevsky had already masturbated on top of 11 year old Michaela, but technically not raping her). He said Hayes should "even the score" by raping Mrs. Pettit.

I don't know what to say about that! I'm speechless and more than a little sick to my stomach. Can you explain how any man can "reluctantly" rape? I don't know what the attorney was thinking. If anything, jurors would find such a statement so outrageous they would be MORE not less willing to convict his client...and give him the death penalty to boot.

[H2O Man]

20. It's obscene

for the lawyer to say that. I suspect he was desperate in his attempt to save his client's life. But that was so vulgar that it had to offend any juror hearing the case.

[CTyankee]

22. I could just see people's heads exploding when reading that statement in

The New Haven Register. I usually don't like the REgister but it did a thorough job of covering the trial, which was conducted here in New Haven. It was traumatic reading about it day in and day out and reading the revelations about exactly how these guys went about killing their 3 victims. The two girls were alive when the killers poured gasoline over their bodies and set the fire. I can't imagine such an act of cruelty.

Dr. Pettit was at the trial every day. He is on medication but can not practice medicine (he was an endocrinologist) any more. It's amazing to me that the man has not committed suicide yet.

Now he has to go thru the same thing again with Komarsajevsky's trial. Perhaps Pettit will stick it out until he sees justice done with HIM. But after...well, I wonder...

[WinkyDink]

11. "Resist the intruders" how, exactly? As for 1959 "innocence", two words: Chessman. Starkweather.

[raccoon]

12. Did you read my disclaimer?

Yes, there were Chessman. Starkweather. but that was not as common as now, when hardly a week goes by that we don't hear of a mass murder or somebody going postal.

[ddeclue]

15. I think you underestimate violence in 1959..

remember World War II and Korea were within most people's recent memories. They were as close in time to World War I as we are to Vietnam. Many still remembered the gangsters of the 1920's and 1930's Al Capone, Bonnie and Clyde, etc and there was plenty of violence related to racism in the South.

[raccoon]

17. I am no fan of war, but war is hardly the same as murdering a suburban family.

As for violence related to racism, see:

Detroit Race Riot (1943)

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The Detroit Race Riot broke out in Detroit, Michigan in June 1943 and lasted for three days before Federal troops restored order. The rioting between blacks and whites began on Belle Isle on 20 June 1943 and continued until 22 June, killing 34, wounding 433, and destroying property valued at $2 million.<1>

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Detroit_Race_Riot_(1943)

[WiffenPoof]

21. In Cold Blood...

is included in my top ten list of all time greatest films. It is easily Robert Blake's best performances...the other one being a role he played in the little known "Electroglide In Blue."

There is one scene where Dick is waiting to be executed and he is by the window in his cell...it is raining. He is talking about his father. He says something to the effect..."I loved him and I hated him." All this time the shadows of the raindrops on the cell widow are cast across his face...resembling tears. This was a stroke of genius by the director.

You raise an excellent question. It is especially baffling considering how important they felt it was to get out of Kansas. I have no idea why they chose to go back when there were other alternatives.

I agree that their lack of resistance is largely due to Bonnie Clutter's condition. To me, it was obvious that Mr. Clutter was a strong patriarch of the family...the true head of the family. What he says goes. He is the one that essentially sets the tone for not resisting (due to his wife). The children are used to following their parent's instructions without question.

-PLA