It is time to kill this bill

[MadHound]

We've got seventeen days left before Christmas(gasp, yes, I want our Congress folks to work right up to Christmas) and frankly, by standing up and fighting a little, we can get a better deal.

First, Obama can take the UI extension gun away from our head by announcing that he will be paying for the UI extension out of surplus stimulus funding. McConnell wanted Obama to do this very thing earlier this year, so hey, bonus, we can call it bipartisan.

The little stuff, SS payroll deduction reduction, etc., as Maddow showed last night, those are nothing but sweetners Obama through into the stimulus bill last year to get a grand total of three, count them, three 'Pug votes for the stimulus. They are Republican initiatives and can be tossed out. Make this a contest between one single issue, whether the rich get their perks, at the expense of the rest of us down the road, or not.

There are times in the political life of this country when you have to play chicken. Line up those cars facing each other, get in and press the throttle. We have seventeen days to do this, plenty of time to let this play out. Get Obama out in the field, out to states with vulnerable 'Pug legislators, so that he can hammer them for their intransigence. We've got the upper hand on this, an overwhelming majority of people, left, right and center, who don't want the tax cuts for the rich. When you make this about a single issue, we win.

What is the worse that can happen? We go back to the Clinton tax rates, woo hoo, we save trillions off the debt. But what is more likely to happen is that the 'Pugs will blink. Hammer them day in, day out for their stance, use that massive messaging machine that the White House and Congress has. Press down that throttle and see what happens. Who knows, you could very well end up with a victory, what a novel concept.

But by doing the faceplant cave, Obama is refusing to even fight, unwilling to even try and get a better deal. It is up to us to contact our representatives, tell them to kill the bill, tell them that they've got to stand up and fight for what is right.

Otherwise, if we don't, not only will the rich continue to reap the rewards while killing the middle class, but on every other issue the 'Pugs will repeat the same tactic, stalling, refusing to cooperate, and sadly it looks like Obama will cave again and again. We can't afford that, now or in the future.

So contact your reps, contact the White House, let them know that you don't want this "deal" to go down without a fight. Kill the bill and let's start again, and this time, let's demonstrate the fighting spirit and prowess that Democrats were once famous for.

[cali]

1. agreed.

this is an open door for the repukes to decimate social programs.

[meow mix]

2. calling max now!!

he carez!

[MadHound]

3. Call Max, write, call, email everybody you can think of!

These are our representatives, it is time for them to do their job and represent us.

[Vinnie From Indy]

4. Make 'em fight!

Many here on DU simply offer that the threat of a filibuster by the GOP means the Dems are powerless and we must accept whatever the GOP wants or face dire results. The fact is that Obama could have made this a fight and STILL COME BACK TO THIS POSITION if need be.

[dkf]

5. If we play chicken we'll get nothing which is okay with me because I'm more concerned about deficits

But the people Progressives profess to care about are the ones who wont get funding we seem to think they need.

Whatever.

[MadHound]

8. How do you know that we'll get nothing, at least until we try?

You don't, and if you go back and examine legislative fights similar to this, you will find that more often than not, we have gotten much better deals than we would have otherwise.

If you are worried about the poor, well, given their tax status, they won't be effected. So that leaves the working and middle class. What is the worse that can happen with them? Well, we could, if worse comes to worse, be saving those trillions in debt.

But it is much more likely that the 'Pugs will blink. We've got the perfect storm on this issue, massive public support, a clear cut issue, and plenty of ammunition to beat them over the head with. All that is lacking is the political will to fight. That's where we the people come in. Take UI out of the equation, and we've got the perfect opportunity to beat the 'Pugs on this fight, if the Democrats would just fight.

[mstinamotorcity]

6. You must get away for

votes to make anything pass. And as you know you have Democratic Congressmen who will side with republicans. They are corporate owned. For all those who are screaming in the Congress about this bill, let's see how many vote in favor of the bill. Look Senator Landrieu was just outraged!!! She's lying. She will vote with a Republican in a Louisiana minute. Take a deep breath and watch. Listen. He did it to let us know that the effort to level the playing field will always be for the top 2% benefit. Because he can't get our own Party to work together as a whole unit.

[MadHound]

9. So do you think that it is futile to fight?

That's what the White House bully pulpit is for. You get Obama out to Louisiana and hammer on this issue with Landrieu's constituents, she will come around. Same in Maine, with Snowe and Collins. But it takes Obama, and the rest of the Dems, getting out and fighting.

[mstinamotorcity]

12. No, but I do think

that corporate influence is more powerful than the Presidential bully pulpit. I have been ready for the fight. But its us who wants to fight. Our President wants to negotiate. Its what Presidents do!!!Once corporate got enough influence, it doesn't matter who is President!!!And when you got corporate donating hundreds of thousands of dollars to your Congressional campaigns and when you leave you get your pension and retirement,plus the lucrative salary you made,and your campaign war chest. Who would you vote for yourself or the people??

[MadHound]

14. How old are you?

I remember a time, not that far in the past, when presidents actually fought, not caved. And as far as corporate influence, yes, there is no denying it. But the fact of the matter is we've got two choices, fight those influences when we've got the perfect ground(like now) or simply completely cave and let them have what's left of this country without a fight. I don't, and I don't think the vast majority of people in this country, want to do that. We will not get a better opportunity where so much is in our favor as we have right now, on this issue.

So which is it, fight and quite possibly win, or simply give up in despair and let this country sink under the weight of corporations, the wealthy and elite?

[mstinamotorcity]

16. Okay now you are fighting dirty what I do to you

that made you ask my age???lol,lol. Lets just say I lived through several Presidents Starting with Kennedy. And believe it or not admired Jimmy Carter. I thought he was way ahead of his time. I believe a President should truly fight the people's fight. But I have watched the people and believe it or not, they are the ones who can exact change in Washington and in the country. But they see limited view of what they can do. This is because we have learned to think in the Republican way even though some of us are Democratic party members.

I find this conversation ready to take an interesting turn.I must leave for a while but will be back on line if you post a reply I will answer it as soon as I return. Hope to continue!!!!Dialog makes good friends and points of interest.:hi: :hi: :hi:

[MadHound]

17. Not fighting that dirty, my first president was Kennedy as well

And those presidents, Kennedy, Johnson, Carter (who I liked as well), Clinton, they all knew when and how to fight the good fight. Even Carter, who was panned as being weak, would stand up and fight when the people demanded that fight. Even the most corporately corrupted of the lot, Clinton, would fight the good fight when it was painfully obvious that fighting was the morally correct thing to do.

Presidents are indeed massively influenced by corporate money and corporate control, but that isn't a monolithic thing. Presidents also realize that they need the votes of people, and if the people see that a president is backing down from a fight that they want, well, next time around that president won't get the votes. That's what gets presidents out on the bully pulpit, fighting the good fight.

That's why we need to put pressure on our reps, on the WH, get them out to fight for us, because they need our votes. And with over eighty percent of the American people, not just eighty percent of Dems, but over eighty percent of the American people, this would be an easy fight, especially if we took away the gun of the UI extension that the 'Pugs are holding to our head.

Sorry if I embarrassed you by asking how old you are. I was just wondering if you remembered that time when Democratic presidents actually fought. Some folks are young enough that they don't remember, sad to say.

See you when you get back:hi:

[mstinamotorcity]

25. Okay, You are right when you say

that repugs were holding UI over our heads. And you can imagine what letters from desperate people said to him. And you know the Senate and House is cold as an iceberg. Especially when they get there and see how much money can be made including salary and benefits?? They trade us off every time. Even though most of the Presidents intentions are good, it doesn't make a difference if he can't get his party to vote the way of the people. Even though most of them campaign that they are going there to Washington in the name of the people. They always talk about Washington D.C. culture and how the average American doesn't understand it. That its about compromise and reaching across the aisle. When its really about Republicans and some Dems holding to their corporate interest. As long as they divert our attention away from the real issues, they will keep putting out Talking points and false rhetoric and a whole list of things to get in the way of the one thing they cannot afford to happen. The people waking up from a prehistoric dream that turns into nightmares for the Average American. If the people truly want CHANGE they must start by the way they think,spend,vote,talk,and encourage.

[chimpymustgo]

15. Some pundit let it slip last night that the Dems will let just enough vote AGAINST it, but IT WILL

PASS.

I do think we should make our voices heard anyway.

[MadHound]

20. If that is the case, all the more reason to make our voices heard,

And hold our politicians accountable for their actions

[KharmaTrain]

7. Now Round Up The Votes...

That's where the rubber meets the road. How many Democrats in the Senate are there who will stand up against this compromise? Ironically, there is strong opposition building on the rushpublican side but for all the wrong reasons...but politics make strange bedfellows...Bernie Sanders and Jim DeMint voting on the same side.

There's also a confused picture in the House. Remember, there are still a bunch of Blue Dogs and will they accept more defecits? Will the Progressive caucus bolt? We'll hear a lot more once a bill is send to the floor and the pressure gets turned up.

There's also this mindset that if the bases...right and left hate something then it must be good. That this "compromise" will appeal to the "independents" and "moderates". It's raw politics with little to do with how it affects people. It's getting the deal done that's all that matters...saving face and attempting to be relevant.

The ones in the middle are Senators and Congresscritters. Definitely call and let your voice be heard. Then we'll see who they're listening to.

[MadHound]

10. The House has already passed a bill that cuts off the tax cuts at $250,000

So that's not an issue, the Senate is. That's when you Obama out to states like Maine, where there are moderate, vulnerable 'Pugs like Snowe and Collins. Have him hammer these Senators on this issue in their state on an issue with over eighty percent support, they'll cave. This has been a tried and true tactic in the past, so why can't it work now?

[KharmaTrain]

13. If The Senate Ammends The Bill...

...it has to go back to the House. Either way, the House will have to vote on whatever the Senate decides.

Obama is going to back whatever deal is hammered out...as is McConnell. So we'll see the opposition from the edges...the teabaggers who want permanent cuts and the UE thrown out (the defecit ya know...) and folks like Bernie Sanders and it appears Chuck Shumer, Sherrod Brown and even (shudder) Mary Landrieu have expressed opposition. It really is a confusing landscape and I honestly have no handle at this point as to who will line up where. While the polls in Maine may show large support for cuts for those at $250k or less, their concern is with a primary challenge from teabaggers.

Stay tuned...it's gonna be a wild finish to make sure all these critters get home for the holidays.

[CJCRANE]

11. It suits both parties to vote against this bill.

Firstly, I have a feeling the Repubs will do the ol' switcheroo and renege on the deal at the last minute (when the votes are being counted). They will say that the UI extentions are unfunded so "as fiscal conservatives blah blah...". That way they would leave all of the blame with the Dems when the tax cuts don't actually create any jobs.

So in fact it would suit the Dems to take the real fiscal conservative high ground and vote against it because of the upper income tax cuts (and pull their own switcheroo for a change).

That way both parties can blame each other (and inadvertantly help shrink the deficit).

[Old Codger]

18. You want

obama to fight? To go out and "Hammer someone" He has not done so to this point why would you think he would start now? He has wasted pretty much all of the momentum he had after the election, he/they (he didn't do it alone)Accomplished a lot but almost all of it is flawed in some extreme ways.I have yet to see him stand up and use his "bully pulpit " for anything but to hammer his base.His advisers have called us names and he has not called them on it, we are "retards" according to one, we are sucking at the social security milk cow tit according to another and I have yet to hear him call anyone but his base out on much of anything.

He is better than bush,mccain, huck and plain from alaska ... but not a real fighter and apparently no real "core " values that he deems worth fighting for.

[MadHound]

19. Well then, it is about time he started.

Perhaps if we made it clear that his political life is on the line, then he might actually get up and do something:shrug:

What else is there to do? It is either stand up and fight, or roll over and get screwed again.

[kctim]

21. Gotta hand it to ya

Paycuts for the middle class in this economy would be a very ballsy move. I wonder who they would blame?

[MadHound]

22. If this is fought right, there wouldn't have to be tax cuts for the middle class

Since you have over eighty percent of the public against extension of tax cuts for the rich, this should be an easy fight. Send Obama and the Democratic leadership into the home states of recalcitrant 'Pug Senators and hammer them, day in and day out about going against their constituency. They would crack pretty quick. I've seen these same sorts of game of political chicken before, and he who has the public and his side and uses the bully pulpit well, wins.

Not ballsy, just playing that old game of political hardball, a game that this administration seems to have forgotten.

[kctim]

23. Wouldn't that only work if the middle class

is willing to take a pay cut in order to raise the taxes of the rich? Are they the ones who make up that 80%?

[MadHound]

24. Why would the middle class have to take a pay cut?

Where are you getting this nonsense?

[kctim]

26. Wouldn't "going back to Clinton tax rates" be a tax increase?

Tax increase = more taken out of paycheck. More taken out of paycheck = less money in paycheck. Less money in paycheck = pay cut.

So, will the majority of Americans be more upset with not raising the taxes of the rich?
OR
Will the majority of Americans be more upset with a pay cut?

[MadHound]

27. Well d'uh, that where the whole thing about fighting comes in

You fight to end the tax cuts for the rich while extending tax for the middle class. There is overwhelming public support for ending tax cuts for the rich, so it should be a fairly easy fight don't you think?

[kctim]

28. They already had that fight

Republicans said no raising taxes on any American and that they would not support any bill that did.
You say the President should then go out to the states and fight for raising taxes on the rich, but extending them for the middle class.
Neither side budges and we have a stalemate. Nothing gets done and taxes go up for all.

Who the middle class blames for the cut in pay depends on if that "overwhelming public support" you speak of are willing to take a paycut or not.
IF they are, Republicans get the blame.
IF they are not, President Obama and Dems get the blame.

Do you sit back and HOPE you get something, or do you go out and get what you can to help who you can?

[MadHound]

29. No, they had a faux fight,

They took a vote in both the House and Senate, where the proposed legislation actually received a majority in both Houses.

But as far as a real fight goes, one where the White House has loud coherent messaging, where CSPAN gets to broadcast the 'Pugs obstructionism day in and day out, where the President uses the considerable power of the bully pulpit to get his message across, no, we haven't had that fight yet.

You don't think that we couldn't get a few, and that's all we need is a few, 'Pugs to budge, when the public overwhelmingly favors no tax cuts for the rich? You don't think we can win that fight. Then you are a victim of lowered expectations and defeatism.

How in the hell do you think that Democrats have won these major battles in the past, by taking a token vote and then caving? No, they and the president got on the same page and actually fought. It was great to see, wonderful political theater that in the end, allowed the Dems to win the day and for all of us to have a better life.

But apparently you're in favor of the faceplant cave before there is even a fight. How sad that expectations of our leaders have grown so low.

[kctim]

30. I am in favor of actually helping

not hoping to help.

No, I do not believe enough votes would have budged, because while a majority of the public may favor raising the taxes on the rich, I do not believe a majority of the public would favor a pay cut in order for that to happen, and the politicians know that.

I see the point you are making and if President Obama had choosen that route, I would have hoped that some votes would have budged, would have hoped that the middle class didn't get hit with pay cuts and would have hoped President Obama wouldn't be blamed if they were.
I also see the point President Obama made, a point that does not rely on hope.

[Faryn Balyncd]

31. K&R

:hi:



:kick:

[chimpymustgo]

Kill the bill.

[chimpymustgo]

32. Kill the bill.