Visa.com DOWN!

[Joanne98]

http://isitup.org/www.visa.com IT'S DOWN! KEEP FIRING!!! #DDOS #PAYBACK #WIKILEAKS
23 minutes ago via web
Retweeted by 100+ people
.Anon_Operation

https://twitter.com/Anon_Operation/status/12613369827692544#

[PBS Poll-435]

1. Awesome!

Huh?

[cottonseed]

2. Damn. They're actually doing it. Now that's direct action.

[EFerrari]

3. Amazing.

[John Kerry VonErich]

66. I really hope they aren't stealing credit card #s

yes, they can do it through the official website.

[NashVegas]

4. I'm Not Sure How This Matters?

It's a cute symbolic victory, but what does it do? Don't most people log into the website of the bank that issued their card?

[PBS Poll-435]

6. Yeah

Visa does not issue debit/credit cards.

But FuckYeah! a website's DNS got screwed through the roof!



Next all of the tomatoes at Walmart are gonna have a "glaze" on them.

[qb]

9. It's an embarrassing headache for Visa, and it's drawing more attention to the Wikileaks debate.

[PBS Poll-435]

12. Long live Dinky!

:rofl:

[girl gone mad]

11. Why bother spending millions maintianing the web site..

if they don't think it matters to their bottom line?

[readmoreoften]

14. Well, unless they need to use the website.

To find out about offers.
To find out about jobs.
To find out about investing in Visa.
To find out how to start accepting Visa or the policy intricacies.

[EFerrari]

15. It matters because the strategy is to make this about Assange

and to isolate him.

This direct action demonstrates that he is not alone. Pretty simple, really. He's not alone and his supporters are not passive. It's basically a threat of ungovernability, only a global one.

[NashVegas]

21. Well, Okay, Great

And we could all go to Washington and march with "We are with Assange" banners. But what's that worth? It didn't stop a war, how's it going to stop an extradition case?

[EFerrari]

27. This is a lot more efficient than marching in DC, isn't it?

This "case" only exists, imo, because of pressure from our government. It was thrown out in Sweden and then re-opened under pressure from a political appointee, if I have this straight.

I'm just watching like everyone else but it seems to me that these actions will slow down the government's rush to take out Assange and it directly challenges their abuse of power in hounding Wikileaks without charging them.

[NashVegas]

85. I Really Wish I Could Believe That

But to me, this looks like nothing more than a harmless gesture.

[Matariki]

29. Excellent points. Spot on.

[TroglodyteScholar]

63. Bingo. n/t

[Hello_Kitty]

36. That's what I'm thinking. I've never in my life logged onto the Visa or MasterCard sites.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

5. The people, rather than the empire, strikes back. Bravo. K&R

[Catherina]

62. +1! n/t

[rainbow4321]

7. Yep.....

9.20pm: Visa.com is now unavailable with Operation Payback coordinating the attack.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/news/blog/2010/dec/08/wikileaks-us-embassy-cables-live-updates?CMP=twt_gu

[Iggo]

8. Now if they take down PayPal, I'll be impressed.

Pissed, but impressed...lol.

[NashVegas]

16. That Would Take Genuine Cahones

That one would actually have an effect.

[EFerrari]

24. It would impress PayPal, too. Maybe that's why PayPal said today

that they were pressured by the government. They don't want to pick the wrong side.

[Kalyke]

32. I used to work with one of the guys who wrote the

original code to bring PayPal into compliance in its infancy...

I can say that PayPal would definitely be impressed. :hi:

[TBF]

51. They have been targeted and slowed, but payments are still going through.

Article this afternoon in American Banker: http://www.americanbanker.com/issues/175_235/wikileaks-inspired-web-assault-1029689-1.html

"A spokesman for PayPal, a subsidiary of eBay Inc., said the San Jose payments company's website had been the target of denial-of-service attacks, the name for a tactic of preventing access to a public website by overwhelming it with more traffic than it is designed to handle.

"These attacks have at time slowed the website itself down," said Anuj Nayar of PayPal, "but have not significantly impacted payments.""

[Mudoria]

10. They need a visit from the agency and given a real "shutdown"

[DFab420]

13. inconsequential DDOS is inconsequential.

it doesn't affect VISA or MasterCard other then pissing off the users of their public website.

Doesn't interrupt business.

Doesn't teach them a lesson.

inconsequential.

[readmoreoften]

17. I wouldn't call their domain "inconsequential."

There's plenty of very consequential information businesses use on that site.

[DFab420]

26. Yes but the information is still there.

And the site is perfectly fine. The only thing they are doing to swarming the address so that no one else can link to it.

These "attacks" are basically equal to calling a business you don't like from so many phone-lines that they can't receive calls from anywhere else.

No real damage. Just annoying as hell.

[ljm2002]

34. "The only thing they are doing "...

..."swarming the address so that no one else can link to it".

Well, yes, that is what a DDOS attack is: a Distributed Denial Of Service attack. Where lots of machines ping the target so that it is overloaded and unavailable for its intended purpose. Interesting to see it being used on both MasterCard and Visa today.

Hmmm, wasn't there another high-profile DDOS attack recently? Oh, yeah, now I remember: there was a mysterious DDOS attack on... wikileaks.org.

Sauce. Goose. Gander.

[DFab420]

48. mm yes there was..

because DDOS is one of the easier ways to mess with a website.

I'm not sure what the comparison is. it was inconsequential to do to Wikileaks.org and it is inconsequential to do to MasterCard or Visa.

[EFerrari]

19. Thank you. I usually have to wait days and days for the Word from on High.

:)

[realisticphish]

23. And I think DDOS attackers are scum

Sorry, but that's how it is :shrug:

It's obnoxious, and amounts to the suppression of free speech (ironically).

And as you say, this particular attack is just a waste of time. Do people really think the DDOS attacks are hitting the internal servers?

edit to say that it's not as if I particularly support Visa, or oppose WikiLeaks. I just don't see why it's suddenly ok to use botnets and DDOS attacks when it's against people we don't like.

[ljm2002]

37. And I'm sure you made a similar post...

...a few days ago, about DDOS attackers being scum, when the wikileaks.org site was disabled due to a DDOS attack?

Right?

[realisticphish]

39. I didn't post as such

because I wasn't in GD that much at the time, but yeah, they're just as bad. In fact, even WORSE, because those are more than likely governments behind that.

But that's totally irrelevant. The bad guys do something, so we should do it?

[ljm2002]

52. You ask, "The bad guys do something, so we should do it?"

Not in general, no.

However, when a bully pokes me in the eye, whether figuratively or literally, my general rule is to poke back. Tit for tat. Don't start it, but don't let them get away with doing it to you, either. The very best response is when you can do exactly what they are doing to you, right back at them.

That's how I see this.

These DDOS attacks are not random; they are directed at organizations who are disrupting Wikileaks. If those behind the DDOS attacks were truly anarchists, they could have disrupted the Internet much more broadly.

[realisticphish]

54. but you aren't really poking back

you're poking at a third party which is sympathetic (or are at least connected to in financial and regulatory concerns) to the one who poked. And in a way that does nothing but annoy people who are trying to use the website.

And I have no problem with poking back; the problem is that it's being done in a totally non-effective way. Mirror the site, post the dispatches in torrents, spread the message as much as you can. Sure. But a random DDOS attack on Visa that last 20 minutes?

[ljm2002]

56. Yes they are poking back...

...appropriately.

Visa and MasterCard both closed Wikileaks accounts, so that people could not contribute money to the organization. In the meantime, they continue to allow donations to (most infamously) the KKK. So what is their motive in shutting down Wikileaks' accounts? Well, it is either to punish Wikileaks for the information they have released so far, or to punish them for their not-yet-released information about a major U.S. Bank (almost certainly Bank of America), or because they were asked to by the State Department or another arm of the U.S. government.

So I do not consider it a random attack. Furthermore, if it only lasted 20 minutes, that is more evidence that they are not behaving as anarchists but are simply demonstrating a little clout.

As far as I'm concerned, that's a good thing.

In any case, you seem to have gone from "It's wrong" to "It's ineffective".

[realisticphish]

60. It's BOTH

but you don't agree with the former, so I was arguing the latter

I think it's hypocritical of many on our side to cheer this. I obviously don't know you, but how many people would be shrieking if some right wing group shut DU down with a DDOS attack? Wouldn't they just be demonstrating a little clout?

Visa made a business decision. A shitty one, and I have no problem with action, boycotts, and the like. But shutting down their website because they did something you don't like is not cool, in my opinion. That's EXACTLY what's happening to WikiLeaks!

[ljm2002]

67. The difference in your hypothetical is this:

If a right wing site initiated an unprovoked DDOS attack on DU then yes, I would object.

On the other hand, if they did the same thing in response to an unprovoked DDOS attack by people on DU, then I would not be able to fault them.

Tit for tat. By the way, Visa and MasterCard did not make a business decision, they made a political decision. Probably under pressure from the U.S. government, but who knows -- I bet they are not happy about the bank info that is supposed to be coming out soon.

From where I sit, it does not appear these actions are being taken because some people are miffed that Visa did something they "don't like". There is a coordinated and ongoing attack against Wikileaks and the very idea of freedom of information, and this is one way of striking back. Granted it may not be effective today -- depends on what you mean by effective. It certainly has us talking, and I have seen headlines on major news sites today. So it is getting attention.

Wikileaks is allowing people to see some of the reality behind the curtain. Not surprisingly, the elites are fighting back tooth and nail. Surprisingly, there are counterattacks with some punch.

This is asymmetric info-warfare. You are correct that it can cut both ways. As I see it, it has been cutting in only one direction for a long time. So if the rabble is getting roused, well, that is not necessarily a bad thing.

[realisticphish]

70. i respectfully disagree

but I can be an absolutist in such things. I know I'm in the minority on DU.

I AM sliding over into WikiLeak's camp though. I've been on the fence for a while, and I DON'T like Assange, but the attacks on them are out of proportion, and assuming they continue to be careful about not releasing the names of assets, etc, then I applaud it.

[ljm2002]

72. No problem...

...we can agree to disagree. I appreciate the discussion. Considering other perspectives helps us to hone our own views.

[Occulus]

82. According to Assange, there is information about the major banks in the next

batch of leaks slated to be released next year. After that announcement was made, the shit hit the fan for him and governments around the world started smearing him in earnest.

That timing was no coincidence. My guess (and it is only a guess, although the timing informs the guess somewhat) is that there is some fairly damaging- and perhaps highly scandalous- information in that batch, perhaps enough to bring down one or more of these companies completely.

If true, the actions of these companies reflects a concerted effort to conceal bad acts on their part, which makes a DDOS attack against them in response to their attempts at covering up that information or preventing it from being released perfectly acceptable to any objective observer.

Think of it this way: bully attacks weak kid. Weak kid and friends know secrets about bully. Bully discovers this, and bully's friends make threats about weak kid, and eventually succeed in kidnapping weak kid. Weak kid's friends tell bully that they will tell bully's parents about bully's secrets, and stand outside bully's house so bully can't come home without bully's secrets being told to bully's parents.

Your position is analogous to saying, "poor bully! That's not fair! And what will it accomplish? Bully doesn't deserve this!"

[asdjrocky]

18. Very good work here.

Break the law people, it's all that is left to us. Attack the corporations in any nonviolent way possible. Buy used and from friends, use your stuff until it breaks or falls apart and then try to repair before you replace. Don't give these evil fuckers your money unless it is your last and only option.

And I would suggest not ordering the clam chowder.

[snot]

20. So, Visa, MC -- any others?

[EFerrari]

28. They took out the Swedish prosecutor's site the other day

and also that bank thingy that the Swiss post office uses.

Kids these days.

[PBS Poll-435]

35. Diner's Club is HUGE in the WikiDrama

JCB too!


Go get em!





Seriously, WTF.

[EFerrari]

40. Sounds like wiki envy to me.

[PBS Poll-435]

41. Wiki is good

And strong.

And remembers to wear a jacket.

[EFerrari]

44. I think I have something you might be interested in.

Good rate, low points, immediate occupancy.

[PBS Poll-435]

46. So shiny!

Who could resist?

[tomm2thumbs]

22. sounds like the natives are restless - they should be very worried

this doesn't bode well for financial industries in general who rely on their sites to function and swap money around like drooling hyenas (apologies to drooling hynenas for the association)

[meegbear]

25. w00t!

[Kalyke]

30. Tweeting across the IT security blogosphere... now...

[thereismore]

31. Still down. Whoa. nt

[Whisp]

33. this is both scarey and exhiliarating at the same time.

on the one hand mass action like this may be what is needed to shake things up a bit.

on the other hand, it's usually the little people that get hurt most and first when things do get shook up.

*straddled on the fence

[EFerrari]

38. I hear you.

And note, none of this was on until the world watched Julian Assange being scapegoated, threatened with assassination, let alone, denied due process.

I guess I'm surprised that anyone has a way to fight back still.

[Catherina]

65. True. But they've declared war and sadly there are always casualties in war.

Not straddled but I sympathize with your point.

[Metric System]

42. I'm not sure how this plays from a PR angle. I doubt it will garner the wikileaks gang any extra

public support. I'm not judging their actions, I'm just arguing that when the average person hears about this (likely through the MSM) they probably won't think it's a good thing.

[TNLib]

68. The older generation will be afraid of the wiki leak people

I already had this argument with my mother. She seems to think everyone involved in wiki leaks will be taken down and deserves to be imprisoned or worse. I don't think my parents generation understands that the world has changed. Wiki leaks isn't a small group of people that can be rounded up. We live in the information age and they way governments do business will have to change.

The younger generation is sick of the way big business and world powers operate and they are changing the world. Quite frankly this is a revolution.

The ironic thing is the frontline warriors are bunch of nerds sitting in there mothers basement probably not even doing it for a political reason just doing it for fun.

[Jeffersons Ghost]

43. I bet they catch the hacker

[starroute]

45. There is no "hacker"

A distributed denial of service attack means a whole lot of people doing the same thing at the same time to overload the server. All it takes is coordination. Nobody is hacking these websites, so there's no hacker to catch.

They did just get their Operation Payback Facebook page banned -- http://twitter.com/Anon_Operation/statuses/12620181117337601 -- but I doubt they were relying on that for more than cheerleading.

[realisticphish]

55. or one guy with a botnet

I'm sure there were many people involved, but I imagine that there were botnets involved.

But I'm no hacker, so maybe not :shrug:

[demodonkey]

59. All this is yet another reason NOT to conduct public elections over the Internet...

...but Internet Voting is exactly what many of our officials are leaning towards.

Support the election integrity organization of your choice, we still need voter-marked, voter-verified paper ballots and no internet voting nationwide.

[TNLib]

81. They opened another fb page and twitter account

they're using the social networking sites to coordinate attacks but twitter and facebook can't do much to stop them because once 1 account goes down they just open another.

[TorchTheWitch]

47. how stupid - this is going to backfire

Having a website is nothing more than a convenience for some customers. Without it life will go on just fine. You'd think that without the internet we still lived in caves with the way people go on around here. Seriously, how many times have you or anyone else here accessed Visa's website anyway and how vital was it that you could? But how many people that have a need to access the website are going to be pleased for the reason for it? ZERO... people don't like their needs and conveniences fucked with, and when they find out who is responsible for having their needs and conveniences fucked with they're going to be pissed off and they aren't going to give a crap about the reason that their needs and conveniences were fucked with.

This is just childish behavior from the adament supporters of Assange/Wikileaks and the likelihood is that if anyone actually finds out about it to begin with they'll be pissed off at those supporters, not with them. This foolish stunt not only does nothing but create a little website service inconvenience (any expense of which by Visa will be handed back to Visa customers) but is far more likely to reflect BADLY on Assange/Wilileaks. So what is the point other than being petty and childish and inadvertantly hurting Assange/Wikileaks?

If supporters want to try to make a difference boycott, write LTTE's, badger journalists, figure out a REAL way to help instead of petty nonsense that doesn't really do anything but turn potential support away from Assange/Wikileaks.

[Violet_Crumble]

57. I didn't see you calling the DDOS attacks on the Wikileaks site childish...

Why was that? Do you oppose the earlier attacks on the Wikileaks site?

[TorchTheWitch]

61. First, I didn't know about them

Second, if that's what happened then fuck them, too. NONE of this shit is helpful to anyone and it's ALL going to backfire on Assange/Wikileaks.

The SMART thing to have done if the people hacking Wikileaks happened first would be to denounce it loudly... boycott, write LTTE's, badger journalists any anyone else doing it, figure out a way to donate funds, etc.

The EPICALLY STUPID thing to do is retaliate in the same way by hitting all the sites that you perceive to have done Wikileaks or Assange wrong... doing so is only going to brutally kill any potential support for Assange/Wikileaks and all so the petty and childish can feel better.

Happy now?

Laugh and point fingers all you like and scream "waaaaaaaaaa! they started it!" till you head falls off. The REALITY is that this does nothing but kill any potential support for Assange/Wikileaks and the fact that nobody even realizes it makes me wonder if the actual support exists at all. Surely SOMEBODY had the foresight to see how badly this would effect Assange/Wikileaks, or is making yourself feel better the be all and end all of your support? A five year old could have figured this out.

Do you really think that shutting down the prosecution site in Sweden is somehow going to be in any way helpful to Assange? The guy is facing very serious charges against him that can majorily effect his freedom and the rest of his life and you think that pissing off the prosecution office is a GOOD idea??? Congratulations, you've collectively just made the prosecution office even more determined to nail his ass to the wall. You've just poisoned the jury pool against him should the need for a jury arise... or did you not think how disruptive and even PAINFUL this would be to all the other people of Sweden with cases on both the plaintiff and defendant side that the prosecution office deals with? Did you not think that this malicious act will be all over the Swedish press and how that reflects on Assange? Think Assange is going to be HAPPY about all this with his personal ass sitting on the line???

[Violet_Crumble]

69. There were quite a few threads about the attacks on the Wikileaks site...

Not really sure how you couldn't have seen any mention of it here at DU, as I've seen you in many threads complaining about Wikileaks and Assange. It's not *if* the attacks happened - they most definately did happen, and it wouldn't come as any shock to find out that those attacks were coming from within the US govt and individuals who oppose free speech...

The thing is what Anonymous is doing now isn't retaliating in the same way. They're so much better at it than the attempts to shut down Wikileaks were, and I don't feel a shred of sympathy for any of the massive corporate busineses like Paypal who bowed to US pressure and move against Wikileaks ability to raise money and keep their site alive. I don't know or care whether it helps Assange or not, but I'm so sick of big business and the US government sticking it to the little guys and no-one ever fighting back.....

[Name removed]

73. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[PeaceNikki]

74. Rock the fuck on.

[Violet_Crumble]

75. Actually, I was telling you that. Also I don't need to feel better about anything...

I was telling you my opinion, which is clearly something you strongly disagree with. But I've read many threads about Wikileaks and Assange here at DU, and you've been in many of them complaining away about Assange and Wikileaks. See, people who do have a problem with the way he's been hounded by govt and big business and conservatives can't just be discarded as having some blind support thing going. Nor should you accuse me of 'petty childish lashing out'. You know why? Because you'd be very wrong on both counts.

For many people, including myself, I find it amazing that some people would exert so much energy getting up in arms about Operation Payback or rape accusations when the big story is the cables themselves and the fact that all and sundry know already that the US govt is responsible for so much death and destruction around the world. Compared to that do I give a flying fuck that Anonymous attacked some big business sites? Not for one microsecond. There's consequences to every action, and they're reaping the consequences of theirs...

[Name removed]

79. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Violet_Crumble]

83. I'm not sure why you've started insisting what I have or haven't seen or read...

I'm very aware of what I say. Because I correct someone else on their own personal interpretation of what I say doesn't mean that they know what I mean to say better than I do. Hope that's all cleared up now...

Actually, I don't need to be told about consequences, but thanks for giving it a shot. I'm sorry, but denial of service attacks do 'touch' something and besides, it's making a massive point to those who think govt and big business can just ride roughshod over everyone else and try to limit our access to information on the internet...

Last line applies very well to the reasoning in the post I'm replying to :)

[Occulus]

84. You're defending a corporation against the actions of living, breathing people.

I thought I'd point that out.

Also, these corporations are directly responsible for the massive debtload of the American people. Living, breathing people.

And you're defending the nonliving entity, the thing whose existence is defined solely on paper.

[NoPasaran]

49. Death to the cyberterrorists!

Fuck those anarchist scumbags!

[TBF]

50. lol - too funny watching your outbursts. nt

[Forkboy]

71. Put their heads on poles lining our streets!

:rofl:

As an aside, are you available for kid's parties?

[rucky]

77. Are you trying to form an angry mob?

:evilgrin:

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

80. Eeek!! Hide your children!! Anarchists!!!

:hide:

[Creative]

53. Anarchy has become quite popular these days...

[Iggo]

86. That happens when regular-archy becomes unpopular.

[Dreamer Tatum]

58. Ummm. All this does is mess with their website. Commerce goes on as normal.

You'd have to take down VISANet to do any damage, and that is pretty much not possible.

[xor]

64. I'd be more impressed if they actually cracked some servers or did something that required skill

Well, maybe impressed isn't the best word, but still...

[rucky]

76. It's not "everywhere that you want to be" anymore.

[crazyjoe]

78. yipee!! lets have a circle jerk!