Bush/Cheney prosecution

[JNelson6563]

There has long been talk of Bush/Cheney been prosecuted for their crimes. Many harbor hope of such a thing happening and are surprised/disappointed it hasn't happened (yet).

Brothers and Sisters, I am here to tell you that it's never going to happen. Think about it, really. Who is going to be the one to set such a precedent? Remember the backlash Ford got for giving Nixon a pass? They (Ford & advisors) knew it would be the case but were willing to pay that price rather than set the precedent.

It will never, ever, ever happen. It's an injustice none of us can do anything about. Period.

Julie

[treestar]

1. Then there is the risk they can't prove anything

I'm against it just for the risk, even if small, that Bush or Cheney would be acquitted.

[TheKentuckian]

7. Nothing ventured nothing gained

Besides, they brag about torture on national TV.

That is am admission of guilt, their defense is absurd considering we have tried and convicted for the exact same defense.

Your excuse is without honor and devoid of principal.
You advocate that the entire basis of our systems of justice and laws be abdicated for the sake of false convenience and a cowards fear that life comes without guarantees and certainty

The fatalism of the dead and the peace of the grave is what you seek.

[treestar]

14. FCOL

It is harder to prove things in legal proceedings than people think. The Rs would crow an awful lot if Bush and Cheney were acquitted and it would set horrible precedent.

[TheKentuckian]

15. I think setting a truly horrible set of precedents is the issue

Perhaps it should be considered that doing the right thing understanding that their is no unscrewable pooch is better than going ahead and screwing the pooch in hopes of not rocking the boat.

Under your absurd model we shouldn't have a justice system at all.

How is making people above the law not it's destruction?

If a murderer brags about his act on TV that is more than enough basis for an indictment. Many have been put to death with much less evidence.

You have no legal concerns at all. Your calculations are purely political here and you know it. If it was some random person you'd be calling for blood.

[treestar]

18. Oh baloney

If there is enough evidence, the prosecutor will prosecute a murder case. You'd be demanding they do it with no evidence, because you felt that a person had done it.

But this would be no ordinary case. It's one thing to rail on the internet about "war crimes", but quite another to find a statute that they've violated, and find the proof - and this from people in contact with people such as Bush and Cheney.

My whole point is that it's not so easy to do as those who just demand it from their keyboards think.

[TheKentuckian]

19. Waterboarding is torture, torture is a war crime, it has been admitted to and boasted

about in public.

What the fuck isn't ordinary when someone goes on the public airwaves to fucking gloat that they tortured people and that they'd proudly do it again?????

Slave to the machine, defender of the indefensible, willing enabler, quick to abdicate justice and morality, cheer leader for depravity in our name to be rewarded with libraries and lecture circuits in the name of not rocking the vote.

[treestar]

27. Well, put that simple case together and write to the government prosecutor about it

Find the statutes, make a complaint, since it's so easy.

I think you don't have any experience with legal crap, or you'd realize just how much ink can be spilled over each issue and how there is a risk the court may make a real finding that waterboarding isn't torture.

People like Bush and Cheney are already paying. for them being out of power is a big enough torture. And the average American is just not incensed enough about it; they are worried about jobs, etc. and they know their enabling of it in the first place - the American people were all for "defending America from terrorist" in the years after 911.

[TheKentuckian]

34. You do realize that the United States has prosecuted and convicted people for waterboarding?

Ronald Reagan even prosecuted a sheriff for waterboarding.

We have had people executed for waterboarding.

There is shit loads of precedent in our law and via international treaty but again none of that is significant to you anyway. You know even in your craven bones what evil was done, just as you know good and well that absolutely nothing was done to indicate to future criminals (and especially the current set) that their actions would have any real consequences as you know they have only actually been encouraged to push even harder the next time.

Out of power? People with that kind of wealth and connections are never out of power, not in this culture.

This goes deeper than the average American and you know that too. What in God's name do you think the purpose of law and a system of justice is? We have prisons overflowing, we have so fucking many that it is a booming private enterprise and you're telling me those people all committed worse infractions, pose more of a danger to society, had greater evidence against them, and are more surely guilty than BushCo?

Are you seriously going to take that argument?

This isn't by a longshot a legal or moral question issue with you this is all about popularity and how it might affect an election.

If you don't believe in prosecuting those criminals you don't believe in prosecuting anybody who doesn't molest, eat, and shit out a kid in front of you and flings the shit while chewing your eye out.

[Exilednight]

26. How would it set horrible precedent? Republicans already set the precedent ...............

that it's okay to torture someone in the name of the national security.

We've legislated against torture, but Bush decided to ignore the law. If we don't enforce it through the courts, and hold politicians accountable, then how do we stop it from happening again?

[smalll]

23. Or tie it to any particular statue --

It's hard to convict people for being generally evil, or leading America into wars one doesn't particularly like.

[IndianaGreen]

28. Bush admitted publicly that he violated existing FISA statute

when he began warrantless surveillance on Americans.

Cheney admitted this own war crimes and his role in authorizing torture.

The invasion of Iraq alone, was a crime against peace.

Holding people indefinitely without trial, and without access to legal counsel, is also a crime.

Ordering the assassination of Americans is a crime, and an impeachable offence.

[Jackpine Radical]

2. Sad but true.

History will place them with Caligula, but nobody in the here-and-now is willing to place them with Milosevic and Saddam.

[TheKentuckian]

3. That is our collective fault as a citizenry. Accountability should be a prerequisite for our votes.

We promote corruption by excusing it.

[Jackpine Radical]

12. I disagree about that collective guilt notion.

That's sort of like blaming the inmates for prison condiitions. Between a massive propaganda machine, big money, and a corrupt electoral process, what the hell were we supposed to do?

[TheKentuckian]

13. I understand what you are saying and there is much that happens without our leave at all

However, there is a lot that happens in plain daylight that we let pass without a whimper.

I blame the collective us for being extreme suckers and allowing the most blatantly obvious shenanigans.

I blame the collective us for tuning out.

I blame us for turning the blind eye and making excuses to protect "our side".

I blame us for calculating the path to not rocking the boat as standard operating procedure.

There is plenty that is helping to sink us that too damn many see and pretend something to make it ok.

I don't know...I reckon it is our collective fault for pretending we aren't prisoners most of all.

[Jackpine Radical]

21. I keep thinking about the psychological literature on

locus of control and learned helplessness.

[tularetom]

4. A lot of us had unrealistic expectations in 2008

In retrospect, it's easy to see that they were unrealistic.

The only way there will ever be a prosecution of these criminals will be if it is initiated overseas. Whether or not such a prosecution is recognized by the US government, it will have a tremendous impact on the attitude of the rest of the world toward our country, which is already pretty much in the dumper.

I gave up on the prospect of an Obama investigation of war crimes long ago.

[Exilednight]

5. I'm still not convinced. All it takes is a President with a backbone and an AG who .............

is willing to prosecute the case. I think Holder is that AG, but sadly Obama is not that President.

[JNelson6563]

6. I disagree.

This is so much bigger than the here & now. Once such a precedent is set it will be a new world for this
Julie

[Ter]

37. What about the Shadow Government heads?

Or do you not believe they exist? They do exist, and worship Poppy Bush.

[IndianaGreen]

8. We will hang them right after we storm our version of the Winter Palace

and bring down the most corrupt system ever devised by man.

[JNelson6563]

9. Would that be the WH?

And yep, we've got the ultimate in corrupt systems! Too bad not nearly enough people are angry enough to consider any sort of revolution. Nowhere near enough.

Julie

[Loudmxr]

10. It will take a new Democratic President.

Clinton would not have done it with Reagan but Gore would have had the power to. Obama won't but who knows what the next person will do. ???? If not them then its history.

We need a truth commission. :shrug:

[Jennicut]

11. It won't happen because the public does not have the stomach for it.

Poll after poll shows the public doesn't want Obama to do it...it is the left only that is angry about it, and rightly so. http://www.gallup.com/poll/114580/no-mandate-criminal-probes-bush-administration.aspx

Some people will feel he is wasting their time instead of solving their problems. Sad but true.

[JI7]

16. i have to wonder about those who demand such things

people i talk to don't give a shit about that stuff. those who voted for Obama did so because they want him to improve their lives.

nobody, not even at Dem gatherings where everyone is politically active don't have prosecuting Bush etc on their agenda.

[annabanana]

25. Just people who think that their representatives have a responsibility

to, you know, represent them.. and that the failings of the State reflect badly on those who are the ostensible rulers of the Country. "Of the People, By the People and For the People and all that.

[golfguru]

17. If the repugs capture either house or senate in November

then any prosecution of Bush/Cheney you can forget about it.
If it was going to happen, the time was before November 2010.

Besides, even if it happens how is that going to increase employment, or
make the economy better? It will be another distraction and will just
delay the recovery efforts of this administration.

[TheKentuckian]

20. It won't be a petty distraction when the next louts build on our bipartisan new normal

If torture, erosion of civil liberties, and false wars is not an issue then the next time remember that you accepted it, asked for it, and in the end demanded the path you were on.

When the day comes that you feel things have slipped too far remember that it wasn't really important.

Each time the same criminals and their ideological and literal heirs get away with making a mockery of our principles we lose a little of what we could be and they come back for more in spades knowing they will only profit in our constant effort to move ahead and forgive for the good of national healing.

Don't forget to pat yourself and your friends on the back for your "pragmatic" hand to mouth mentality the next time these criminals bite us all in the ass because we actually indulge them.

People like you folks are why the top line criminals have no shame and no line they will not cross. Hell, they have to creatively invent new ones to shock and awe us.

[golfguru]

22. So let me get this straight...

Has anything changed in regards to civil liberties comparing this admin
with the Bush/Cheney admin? Please explain if so.

So you believe water boarding of enemy combatants is much worse than
exploding them with rockets fired from drones? Even if their family members
are included in the casualties? In case you have not kept up with the news
that is exactly what we are doing in the Afghan/Pak region.

Have the "false wars" as you call them called off?

If answer to all of above is in the negative, then you should also be asking
for criminal charges brought against the Obama/Biden administration.

To make it clear, I am for civil liberties, and I deplore all wars unless
attacked first such as at Pearl Harbor & 911.

I compliment the Obama/Biden administration in not wasting valuable time on
dredging up actions of Bush/Cheney, since what happened can not be changed.
There are too many important issues on the plate for the current administration.
People are hurting economically, BP oil spill is a huge environmental issue,
financail reform, immigration reform, etc.

Call me pragmatist if you want. I will accept that over vindictive revenge.

[TheKentuckian]

30. So you agree that these practices should be standard operating procedure for or country

and I imagine with the sentiment that the Constitution is just a "goddamn piece of paper".

What is going to change if you arrest anyone for virtually any crime?
Is out justice system nothing and serves no other purpose than as a conduit of revenge?

Safe to say we can mark you as an advocate of accountability for the "small people"and free reign for the connected wealthy.
You are a great patriot and a true representation of the best of western civilization!

Go torture to gin up false evidence for phony wars! Go drugs for guns! Go undermining off democracy! Go imperialism in or hemisphere!

It won't be so "practical" and "sensible" when the next Cheney rears his head and like you say it ain't no bed of roses with our guy either who is free to just pick up the mantle and keep the train rolling.

Makes me proud to be an American!

[golfguru]

32. No no no

We are in full agreement on civil liberties, war, and everything else.

But this thread is about "why is'nt there prosecution of Bush/Cheney by Obama administration".
If you would have stated that both administrations have done bad things, then I would hold my peace.

[TheKentuckian]

33. Oh certainly Obama is culpable for his actions and should be held accountable

I saw no reason to add any more gas when dealing with the irresponsible negligence and abandonment of duty was more than hot enough rather than a whitewash effort.

I don't think that can be handled in any way shy of a free for all meltdown without at least digesting why the last fuck should be facing justice.
If they are going to shield Bush and make excuses then what do expect is going to happen when those wagons start circling.

[704wipes]

39. but I guarantee they will be investigating up

Obama's ass for something, anything.

[mokawanis]

24. This is old non-news

I'm still surprised anyone ever seriously entertained the idea that it would happen.

[IndianaGreen]

29. The Holocaust is also 'old news'

yet no reasonable person would argue we should let the aging nazis go free.

Hanging a few of our own war criminals will have a deterrent effect on future Presidents.

[golfguru]

40. First we have to find a president who will get us out of wars

as soon as sworn in.

9 years in Afghanistan is longer than Viet-Nam war. Enough is enough.
Iraq war never justified with any rationality.

[liquid diamond]

36. Never underestimate the persistence of the delusional. n/t

[Bluenorthwest]

31. Well, Julie there are some things that can be done

for example a refusal of respect for those who have protected them. Ask Jerry Ford how he enjoyed his life as a national sight gag, his wife in rehab and his children dismissed as the spawn of weakness plus need. I bet he wished he stayed in Congress.

[liquid diamond]

35. You sensible woodchuck you.

:sarcasm:

[Odin2005]

38. The Elites protect their own.

They think they have a Divine Right to rule. they don't call it that, of course, but that's exactly their mindset, they they were given their wealth and power by God.