Some liberals need to grasp the "live to fight another day" concept

[truthspeak]

Great war tacticians understand this concept and doesn't view it as "cowardly" or "weak". They know its often best to flee and regroup and come back twice as hard.

How does this apply to Obama?

Health Care: Pass a mediocre bill with some great foundations like (pre-existing conditions etc.) rather than stand for purist principles and get nothing in the short term...so that you can easily make amendments in the long term. Simply put...its much easier to add a 'public option' over the coming years than it is to pass an entire HCR bill with a public option in it.

Tax cuts: Give the repubs their TEMPORARY tax cuts now, so that you can do an overall tax reform in the future which not only level the tax code playing field, but also encourages growth.

* THIS IS NOT A BASHING THREAD...ITS ABOUT ENLIGHTENMENT AND DISCUSSION *

[phantom power]

1. Right. And we also need to keep our powder dry.

And we need to not let the perfect be the enemy of the good.

And we need to avoid collateral damage.

And we need to stop smoking crack.

Am I missing any?

Good luck with all of that -- we're going to need it.

:eyes:

[polichick]

2. LOL - nice one. nt

[GreenPartyVoter]

6. You forgot the ponies.

:hi:

[DURHAM D]

7. Yes - Need to stop being purists.

Did you already forget what Obama lectured us about in his presser?

Its in the Democrat Supporter Guide titled - Sheeple 101

[Dr.Phool]

56. Can I have a pure pony?

With dry powder?

[Name removed]

41. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[COLGATE4]

87. You really need to tone down the ad hominem attacks on other

DU'ers. Otherwise, I imagine your stay here is going to be brief.

[27inCali]

45. sometimes you just don't have the numbers you need

do you emplode? or do you do what you can at the moment and come back for more later when you're stronger?

My argument is that Progressives are positioned right now to be very powerful after 2012 simply by taking a ton of seats in the House and Senate and being a majority of the Dem Caucus.

Lots of Moderate Pigs will be up for election

Obama may be weak, but if he is weak, a very Progressive Congress could roll him too.

[GOTV]

68. That's true. But you don't know what numbers you could get if you fought.

[COLGATE4]

86. Don't forget - "Don't fire til you see the whites of their eyes"...

[yurbud]

109. that would have been more believable if Obama hadn't taken that defensive approach from Day 1

when he had 60 votes in the Senate and a majority in the House.

And if you want to say that not all of those Democrats were ''real'' Democrats, Obama could have done something about that too, by backing primary challengers to Blue Dogs and DLCers who voted against his supposedly top priority legislation, or he could have just sat on his hands. Instead, he actively campaigned for those who undercut and watered down those crucial measures, which makes it look like he is more sympatheritc with them than with actual Democratic voters and pols.

[merbex]

116. Exceelent retort

Debate worthy

Primary challengers( hope to God there is one) to Obama:

take note of this comment - this is the 'there you go again' comment that crippled Jimmy Carter

[RetroLounge]

120. ...

:applause:

RL

[WiffenPoof]

140. I've Often Wondered...

...what the phrase "keeping your powder dry" means. Can someone explain this? Is it to keep your "gun powder" dry so it will be usable in the future?

-PLA

[LawnLover]

141. And you need to get your head out of your asses and live in the real world

Because that's the world Obama and the rest of us live in.

[GreenPartyVoter]

3. And when the "fight another day" never comes to pass, then in hindsight do we

all agree that we got screwed?

This theory is about as sound as trickle down. Just because you _say_ that giving the rich extra money back through tax breaks means we get new jobs doesn't guarantee that they won't just stash the money in off-shore tax shelters. And keeping our powder dry and living to fight another day are the same deal. No guarantee someone will come along and follow through on the plan.

If people are wary about living to fight another day, it's because they've been waiting for that day for so long that they've given up hope. It's one thing to wait a few years, but we're into decades on some stuff now.

[truthspeak]

80. Keep believing...don't give up hope

the harder the struggle...the sweeter the victory.

[Dr.Phool]

104. Committing seppuku is not living to fight another day.

[polichick]

4. Some liberal bashers need to grasp that if you don't stand for something...

...you'll fall for anything.

[truthspeak]

19. "Liberal bashers"....why do u perceive everything as an attack?

[polichick]

20. Why do you lecture liberals? nt

[Name removed]

57. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[treestar]

73. The movies, poems, maybe, but the real world, you don't have

to draw a line in the sand every time. Sometimes you take in several factors and have to make an overall deal.

If you did not do that, your career would be ruined and your personal life would resemble a soap opera.

Washington is just like any other place. Full of people. Not everything has to be fought to the death, nor should it be.

[polichick]

117. There was NO fight here. nt

[johnlucas]

143. Wrong. Life-and-death situations always require a fight to the death

This is not a decision over what bed linen you want on your mattress.
Getting that decision wrong doesn't kill anybody. Nobody's life is on the line.
It only leaves you with a less-than-desirable fashion choice.

This is not a decision over going to the movies or renting a video instead.
Getting that decision wrong doesn't hurt anybody. Nobody's lives will be affected by that choice.
The only thing you lose is a few dollars either way...and maybe wasted time if the movie of your choice didn't live up to expectations.

No, THIS IS REAL LIFE.
And These Decisions AFFECT REAL LIVES.
This affects whether someone eats or not, whether someone has shelter or goes homeless.

When the government makes laws, enforces laws, interprets laws, these rules have direct effect on the lives of those who live in the nation.
It is NEVER a trifle or a live to fight another day kind of situation.

You FIGHT to the MF'n DEATH!!!
You DRAW that Line in the Sand.
EACH AND EVERY TIME.

If you don't then this is a game to you & these people's lives are playing pieces to be put back inside the box when you're finished playing.
I don't care if you fail to get what you sought for in the short term so long as you are honestly fighting for it.
You keep fighting & they will tire out eventually. They will relent. They always do. Energy is limited in human beings.

No more compromise, no more capitulation.
Either you do it or you don't.
It's binary now. Zeroes & Ones. Black & White. There is no grey.

They keep compromising...believe me before it's all said & done they will be compromised.
And what was supposed to be done by them will be done without them.
John Lucas

[Hello_Kitty]

5. Except that the health care bill will not be improved and the tax cuts will be permanent.

The thing we liberals do know is the treachery of the GOP and the gullibility of the public.

[young but wise]

8. Agreed.

:kick:

[craigmatic]

9. There's nothing about this deal that says live to fight another day. If Obama lets the cuts stand

now it'll be harder to get rid of in 2012 when repubs run on cutting taxes and the repub house will try to force the issue with the President. He's sewing the seeds for his own defeat with this extension.

[ProSense]

14. Do you believe

that taxes going up on the middle class will make voters more appreciative of the President, sew the "seeds" of his re-election?

[craigmatic]

21. Either way he's fucked so he might as well play to his own base. The only thing that'll fix the

economy is time and increased consumer confidence. Tax cuts are just a way of spending money just for the sake of it. What if they do nothing and Obama still gets blamed for the bad economy and spending nearly a $trillion?

[ClassWarrior]

42. Bingo. It's the base who campaigned for him in 2008. It's the base who showed up for Dems...

...in November. And it'll be the base who campaign to re-elect him in 2012 if they see any value in that. The independents will follow if the base leads.

NGU.

[MNBrewer]

39. Bread and circuses

Anything to placate the mob

[Larry Ogg]

139. The truth is both amusing and tragic...

The left and right political arms of government beating each other up so as the sheep will never notice the beast to which the arms are attached.

[COLGATE4]

89. If he dropped taxes for the Middle Class another 25% right now

(assuming for the sake of argument he could do so immediately), in 6 months the Rethug press and MSM would have the public convinced that their taxes really went up! See his last tax cut for 95% of the population. So he might as well be hung for a sheep as for a goat.

[Dr.Phool]

58. President Palin won't let them expire!

That's where we're headed to, and the left ain't doing it. Obama's doing it to himself.

And when do we get our ponies?

[truebrit71]

10. WE've had two years + of "keeping the powder dry"...enough is enough..

Health Care: Start with a bill that has the ultimate dream wish-list included and work down from there. Don't start at the bottom and keep digging.

Tax cuts: Give the republicans what they want, add $1 trillion to the deficit and then use the same talking points to vote him out of office in two years time when they expire again. Brilliant! (not)

I guess it was too much work for the President to go on teevee and say, quite clearly, in small words that even Teahadists could understand, that 2 million people were going to lose their UI benefits and EVERYONE'S taxes were going to go up because the republicans want to give tax breaks to millionaires.

But yeah, just giving away the farm without even consulting with your own party is a MUCH better way of doing business...:eyes:

[ProudDad]

33. Actually, it's been four years...

but who's counting :hi:

That powder ought to be REAL dry by now! :)

[bvar22]

96. Actually, its been 10years + of "Keeping the Powder Dry"...

at least since 2001,
but could be argued that the Democrats haven't fought since Reagan was elected.

[ProudDad]

129. I was just counting the recent years when the Dems COULD have done something substantial

It is true that the Dems haven't fought for the mythical Democratic Principles since the 1930s...

[myrna minx]

62. We use to keep our powder dry, but now we just give it away.

:eyes:

[Autumn]

11. I can kind of agree on the first one,

The second is bullshit and will never happen, they will become permanent. You give these fuckers a foot and they will take a mile. I fail to see the war tactics he used, other than disinformation. I hear him on television saying these tax breaks will create millions of jobs. It's been 12 fucking years. Where are the jobs? It's a fucking giveaway to the rich.

[bluerum]

12. We have had two years (more really) to formulate a rational alternative to giveaways to the rich.

What makes you think the next two years will magically yield a new plan?

[truthspeak]

15. Uh...the deficit commission already has a blueprint for tax reform...

and its hated by the repubs to boot. lol

[bluerum]

23. How about we come up with a workable plan. That comittee was a joke.

I agree there are plans out there. Good progressive plans. But they are not getting the attention they deserve. Instead we get this horse shit from the president.

So. What makes you think someone (anyone, please) will re-group and advance a real progressive plan?

[truthspeak]

32. That specific tax reform plan is praised...

by many economists and is hated by republicans...what does that tell you?

[ProudDad]

35. It tells me that republicans don't understand capitalist economics

that the Cat Fud Commission's recommendations are GOOD for the uber-rich and fuck the working class...

But most republicans don't have a class consciousness (neither do most Dems, alas)...

There's a GOOD reason that "economics" is rightly and ironically called the dismal science -- it's dismal and not a science...because it's constrained by a mythical system that ignores the Earth's built in constraints and the laws of physics...

[truthspeak]

40. Hence the word "blueprint"...

meaning you make the appropriate changes to make it stronger.

[ProudDad]

79. You mean screw the poor and middle class even more?

:shrug:

[bluerum]

59. Raise the retirement age? Put us on a path to gut SS? This you advocate?

[truthspeak]

63. Deliberate strawman....or you can't help yourself? lol

I said the TAX CODE REFORM blueprint from deficit commission.

[ProudDad]

130. Ah, that clears it up...

Fewer taxes for the rich and more taxes for the lower and middle classes...

And an end to most of the safety net...

Got it!

[grasswire]

13. that's what they told Al Gore

Don't be a sore loserman. Be a statesman, so your political future is preserved.

All this misery would likely be averted if Bush had been stopped in 2000.

[The Magistrate]

16. You Are Not Nearly So Cute As You Think You Are, Sir

What most people criticizing President Obama at present understand quite clearly is that the current 'necessities' are the result of failing to fight when circumstances were more favorable, in the first half year or so of his administration. President Obama's failure to act as a political leader of his Party, his foregoing the use of a President's power to shape debate and the political landscape is what has landed him in this situation, where he must go hat in hand to his enemies, who he could have broken like twigs had he fought in proper season, to truckle for scraps that can adorn his giving over to them their basic objective.

[GreenPartyVoter]

17. +1,000,000

[golddigger]

24. + 1

:thumbsup:

[displacedvermoter]

28. Well said, Sir!!!

[ProudDad]

37. As usual, Sir

your post cuts to the heart of the matter...

They should have listened to George Lakoff...

[truthspeak]

43. Lets address this "Presidential Persuasion" issue...

I agree with this that Obama should've done more on the persuasion front, hell even he admits that. I would've loved to have seen him do more prime-time oval office addresses and even use charts and graphs to breakdown the stimulus package etc a la Reagan.

With that said...there are limits to the "bully pulpit", and persuading people on tax cuts is one of them.

There was absolutely NO WAY that repubs would "cave" to public pressure on tax cuts...NO WAY. So this notion of "presidential public pressure" or "shaming" the GOP into giving up tax cuts for the rich is pure fantasy. Add to that...there are many poor/middle class people in this country that believes in the "tax cuts provides jobs" crap.

Hell the GOP just HISTORICALLY won the House on that "tax cuts" argument...why do people IGNORE this aspect?

[The Magistrate]

49. You Are Not Dealing With The Actual Balance Of Forces, Sir

What had to be broken by the White House were several Republican Senators from states President Obama carried handily, and several so-called 'moderate' Democratic Senators who function as an auxiliary of the Senate Republican caucus. Pressure applied skillfully to this handful of people would have turned the situation in the proper direction. The pressure had to incorporate the use of the stick, and a willingness to make an example of an offender: these are things President Obama seems to lack the capacity to carry out. It is unfortunate, but the lack is crippling.

[truthspeak]

50. Simple question courtesy of Lawrence O'donnell...

Name the last time anybody persuaded the GOP to raise taxes?

And thats just one republican...logistically you would need about 2 more plus ALL the dems to fall in line (big assumption) in order to pass a new bill that the dems wanted. It doesn't matter if it was at the beginning of the year or now...this scenario would have never happened.

I agree that the president has goofed in messaging and persuading so far...but I see signs that he is improving and growing into that role...and THATS why he should be supported by his "base" now more than ever instead of being bashed. The past is the past, let it go.

[The Magistrate]

52. Since The Man Did Not Try, Sir, We Will Never Know

But you do not display anything like a sufficient grasp of the matter to incline me to substitute your view for mine.

Put bluntly, all the Democrats in the Senate had to be made to do was vote en bloc on procedural matters, which is something any competently led political party ought to be able to manage.

[truthspeak]

53. "Sufficient grasp of the matter"?

huh?...enlighten me please.

True, there is nothing wrong with trying I suppose...but consider this...Obama for the past 3 years has been saying that we can't give tax cuts to the wealthy nearly EVERY speech YET the voters voted for the people that would do the opposite...you figure out who is really culpable here. lol

[The Magistrate]

54. You Have Just Ceased To Be Worth My Time, Sir

"If a man will continue to insist that two and two do not make four, I know of nothing in the power of argument that can stop up his mouth."

[truthspeak]

55. Disappointing...

I was fooled by your eloquence, to think we could have a substantive debate...my mistake. Good day to you.

[ProudDad]

132. You must learn to get outside of your

limited perspective and comprehend what you're reading:

The Magistrate tried to point out to you that "all the Democrats in the Senate had to be made to do was vote en bloc on procedural matters, which is something any competently led political party ought to be able to manage."

This is STILL POSSIBLE...

It's covered here in words of one syllable for the comprehension-impaired:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=102&topic_id=4653961&mesg_id=4654520

With back-up here:

http://blogs.wweek.com/news/2010/12/09/jeff-merkley-george-bailey-and-an-online-petition/

51 votes in the Senate to change the rules...

[truthspeak]

135. Ok cool...but what are the consequences?

Would you be comfortable with a tea party congress and a tea party president with NO filibuster to stop them?

Sometimes it helps to think of the bigger picture when making important decisions.

[boppers]

90. "Name the last time anybody persuaded the GOP to raise taxes?"

Uh, GHWB.

What do I win?

[DemocratSinceBirth]

138. He Was Rewarded With The Lowest Pop Vote For A Major Party Candidate In The History Of The Republic

That being said, it would be interesting to see how many Congressional Repubs voted for it.

[pscot]

47. That is the absolute truth

in a nutshell.

[Union Scribe]

75. Great post. And manners.

Sir :)

[bullwinkle428]

103. +2000

[RetroLounge]

121. +10000000000000000000000

:applause:

RL

[Bluenorthwest]

18. The problem with tactics is that they need to serve a strategy

or they are in fact just stuff you are doing. Sometimes fleeing is just fleeing.

[truthspeak]

22. THIS IS NOT A BASHING THREAD...

...ITS ABOUT ENLIGHTENMENT AND DISCUSSION

[ProudDad]

38. Then listen to the voice of enlightenment

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=433x554318#554366

[myrna minx]

64. LOOK HOW LOUD I LIKE TO TYPE!

Purple monkey dishwasher.

[truthspeak]

67. I apologize...

can we have a rational debate now?

[RetroLounge]

122. Purple monkey dishwasher

:rofl:

RL

[MNBrewer]

25. When does that day ever arrive?

[dennis4868]

26. your way is the adult way of doing things....

this is what Ted Kennedy preached all the time....but our party has people and groups that feel that fighting will make a difference. The question in tbhis case is what does fighting mean when you cannot fight anyone (meaning the repubs will NEVER EVER NEVER EVER back down from their fillubuster on any legislation that will increase taxes on the wealthy. People actually think there is a fight to be had here.....I don't see it that way.

[displacedvermoter]

31. Where and when is that fight to take place, and on what issue?

[displacedvermoter]

27. But it isn't mediocre, its "historic" but I am glad that it will be much

easier to add the PO down the road!

[truthspeak]

29. What makes you think he can convince the public NOW...

and not later? I don't get this logic?

People keep saying he should use the "bully pulpit" and convince people now...the question is...if you believe he can do that now, why don't you believe he can it later in 2 years?

[Umbral]

88. Because in 2 years, he'll be on his way out of office and no one will care what he says. nt

[bowens43]

30. "live to fight another day"

implies that there was already a fight...there wasn't.

[polichick]

60. Exactly! nt

[niceypoo]

34. That was the excuse that we got for the last six years...

...for Democrats never doing anything about anything.

[truthspeak]

44. So the list of things done in the past 2 years is...nothing?!?!?

Oh wait he didn't get single payer health care....HE DID NOTHING FOR US!!! lol (sorry couldn't resist)

[niceypoo]

81. Im talking about impeachment investigations

Torture investigations, war crimes tribunals...etc.

[truthspeak]

82. Circumstances and priorities change sometimes...

...its called life.

[niceypoo]

84. I call it cowardace

And never learning from the past.

[CakeGrrl]

36. To your last sentence, I say GOOD LUCK WITH THAT!

Nice try, but not here, not now.

[T Wolf]

46. "...come back twice as hard..." Who do you think will fight even half as hard? Certainly not

the guy in the WH who has led the retreat to the right.

Certainly not the majority of so-called Democrats in Congress who rubber-stamped every bush policy and then followed Obama off the right-wing cliff.

Face it - Obama "lost" on every issue he went at in selling out to the GOPsters. That is, he lost from a Democratic point of view. From his, he obviously thinks he "won." So, he has no desire to revisit those issues he lists in his "legacy."

As much as I blame him for doing such a bad job, his worst offense is blowing the best (and only) chance in my lifetime to actually make real progress in this country. Instead of lamenting his "failure" he spouts off on how well he has done. And he still thinks he is not accommodating enough to the enemy.

I deeply regret being such a fool as to be deluded into thinking this guy shared a liberal outlook on things. He is no liberal and not much of a Democrat either.

[truthspeak]

51. How is 30 million people getting HC..."losing"?

[displacedvermoter]

72. In part because another 25 - 30 million are not covered at all

and likely never will be.

But you know all of this.

[ibegurpard]

76. 30 million people are required to purchase health insurance

please stop spinning it as anything else.

[LastLiberal in PalmSprings]

92. Without any controls on price or quality of care

"Where's the CarFax?"

[ProudDad]

133. They DIDN'T get "Health Care"

they were ORDERED to buy for-profit, inadequate "health insurance" in the mythical "free market"...

BIG DIFFERENCE!

[ladjf]

48. Cute. But, there may not be "another day". nt

[Name removed]

61. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[avaistheone1]

65. "This is our time. This is our moment..."

to say NO to these huge unnecessary tax cuts for the wealthy.

[truthspeak]

66. Would anybody care to address 'reply #29' ?

[WorseBeforeBetter]

69. "easily make amendments in the long term" and "TEMPORARY"

Have you tried giving the reality-based world a chance?

[truthspeak]

94. Obama's decision is as "reality-based world" as it gets

[gort]

70. We also need to learn who to attack. Like, the Republicans!

The lesson to take from the new age of Citizens United is that the campaigning never ends. The Democrats are fools if they don't immediately start moving strong candidates in to Congressonial Districts to force the bullies in Congress to actually have to run for office. Why does Darryl Issa not get a strong condidate to run against? Make him spend some of 240 million to keep his job. This is a guy who wants to witch hunt the President out of office.

The Republicans targeted our strongest liberals. That is why Feingold and Grayson are gone. We need to run against every Republican wackadoodle. Like Bachmann, Issa, Boehner, King, Lewis, and others.

That is what Howard Dean's 50 state strategy was about, but the Smart Ones in the Beltway hated him so we lost the House.

Stop attacking Obama. Attack the real enemy.

[mtnsnake]

71. We shouldn't give the Repubs anything, temporary or not. Fuck those corrupt thieving assholes

The more we give them, the more they'll screw us AGAIN. It's as simple as that with Repukes. We ought to know that by now. The only thing they deserve is jail time.

[ibegurpard]

74. this is the "keep your powder dry" argument...dry for what?

[Union Scribe]

77. Pretty sure that "great war tacticians" also know you can't win by retreating every time.

[DearAbby]

78. Keepin that powder dry!!!

:eyes:

[Chisox08]

83. It is wise to choose your fights but...

it is unwise to choose not to fight at all.

[Safetykitten]

85. Monty Python Primer for "live to fight another day"

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zKhEw7nD9C4

[boppers]

91. Sometimes you have a Pyhrric victory, sometimes you are just dead with no victory.

Three battles come to mind:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pyrrhic_victory
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_the_Alamo
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Thermopylae

If you're going to lose, make sure you lose in such a way that your overall position is strengthened, and that you can fight from a stronger position in the future.

[TheKentuckian]

93. Thanks for enlightening us on folding like a cheap tent.

[Onlooker]

95. Your strategy gave us 25 years of Republican rule

Democrats compromised and put up with Carter's right wing antics, and all that did was validate the right-wing and give us 25 years of Reaganism. If we don't fight now, we might not get a chance to win the fight for another generation.

[JamesA1102]

99. Yes it did.

Because the Republicans understood that it takes small incremental steps and patience. They didn't try to completely change everything in less than 2 years.

[truthspeak]

102. This is a "strategy" of how things get done in life...

...in the real world.

[bvar22]

97. You stated in your OP:

"Health Care: Pass a mediocre bill with some great foundations like (pre-existing conditions etc.)..."

That is NOT a "foundation".
THAT is merely a "regulation" placed on Insurance Companies.
There is nothing NEW about that.
Governments have always had the power to "regulate" industry.

Establishing a NEW Publicly Owned/Government Administered Health Insurance Pool available to anyone who wanted it...
THAT would be a "foundation" that could be built upon...

but merely establishing a new "regulation" that can be either circumvented, or de-regulated by the incoming Republicans....
No...does NOT qualify as a NEW "Foundation".

On Edit:
THAT is WHY it is dishonest to equate HCR with Social Security and Medicare.
THOSE two programs actually DID establish "Foundations".
The HCR Bill.....No...No "foundations".

[truthspeak]

100. So you would be happy if the whole bill was repealed then right?

Since there is absolutely nothing good about it at all...at all! lol

[bvar22]

105. False Dilemma Logical Fallacy...

You see THIS one a lot around DU:
http://www.sjsu.edu/depts/itl/graphics/adhom/dilemma.html

My favorite False Dilemma Logical Fallacy dominating DU lately is:
"If you oppose this ruinous Tax Plan, you hate the unemployed!!!!"


Just like the Health Insurance Profit Protection Bill,
we do NOT have to eat the WHOLE Shit Sandwich (Mandates with NO Public Option) to get a couple of good crumbs.

Break UP the "packages" and vote on the individual items.
Throw OUT the crap and keep and expand those items that are actually GOOD for America.
The vast MAJORITY of Working Class Americans WILL support Tax Policy that benefits the Working Class.

WE outnumber THEM.

[truthspeak]

107. Missing the point...

or simply don't understand what "foundations" means...

A lot of the good parts were 'foundations' to ANY type of health care reform.

Now that they're there with little threat to be removed (GOP wouldn't dare try), it is much easier to build upon those solid foundations and improve the law.

[bvar22]

110. There is certainly a point being missed....

but I'm not the one missing it.
A "foundation" is a "beginning".

A handful of easily circumvented regulations is NOT a "foundation".

Increasing funding for Medicaid...NOT a "foundation".

Providing partial subsidies (vouchers) to help the poor BUY Health Insurance...NOT a "foundation".

There are NO "foundations" contained in the recent Health Insurance Bill.

Even the theoretical "Exchange Pen" is NOT a "foundation".`

There are NO "New Rights" defined in the bill (beyond the RIGHT of the Health Insurance Cartel to Mandated Profits).


Establishing a NEW structure, like a Publicly Owned/Government Administered National Health Insurance Program....now THAT is a "foundation".

[truthspeak]

111. Is the constitution a foundation?

...and if you say yes...then why don't you consider a 'patient bill of rights' as a foundation.

Maybe we're getting into semantics here...but foundation is the 'crucial' starting point of a structure. So for instance you wouldn't get a fancy state of the art roof for a building without establishing the basic ground foundations of the building itself.

Good debate tho...

[whosinpower]

98. What day is that?

There is Sunday, Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday, Friday, Saturday......I don't recall ANY day of the week called Anotherday.

I have yet to see a single occasion where democratic values were fought for twice as hard....they are still waiting for that one day of the week to be renamed Anotherday.

[PVnRT]

101. ...except that, at some point, you have to actually fight or the statement is meaningless

[cherokeeprogressive]

106. Today is Day 690... what's one more day? n/t

[ladywnch]

108. I've lived long enough to fight another day several times... however

.....I'm gonna die of old age long before 'another day' every gets here.

[JVS]

112. Some liberals need to grasp the "fight" concept.

[Warren Stupidity]

113. Capitulationist thread number 275

=powder dry=
oh lordie

[Armstead]

114. Screw that - We've been using that excuse for at least 20 years

[Pistarkle]

115. You got that right...

I hate the thought of having to compromise on the tax cuts, but no compromise is only in your corner when YOU have the upper hand. Right now the Republicans HAVE the upper hand – more than enough “no” votes in the Senate to keep tax cuts for the wealthy in ANY compromise. If Democratic candidates campaigned on tax cuts for the wealthy during the 2010 Campaign as the President suggested, perhaps 90% rather than 40% of eligible voters would have voted in the midterms and the Democrats would have the upper hand regarding the tax cut controversy, but that’s past history.

Because of the midterm results, Republicans will be in charge of the House and the 60 vote filibuster-proof Senate on the side of Democrats will be out the door come January 1st. At least now a compromise will benefit the middle class, the poor, and the unemployed and small businesses. The President HAD TO FIGHT for the extension of unemployment benefits, tax cuts for the middle class, payroll tax cuts, and incentives for small businesses to create jobs. The Republicans ONLY wanted tax cuts for the wealthy. It’s not the best of both worlds, but it’s better than nothing at all. After January 1st when the Republicans are in charge of the House, you can be guaranteed that those benefits will be ‘gone with the wind’.

WE criticized the President and Democrats when we didn’t get the public option but WE didn’t fight for it. We let the Tea Party and health insurance industry do ALL of the squawking and we didn’t start raising Cain until after the fact. WE must deliver the upper hand. WE must speak out in ONE voice. WE must shame the Republicans into ending those tax cuts THROUGHOUT the next two years. WE must hold local rallies. WE must fight for our rights in local AND national newspapers, internet, radio and media outlets. WE must email, fax and call Republican Congressional offices EVERY DAY. We must let Tea Party-backed Republicans know that if they continue to fight for the wealthy and ignore the middle class, the poor and the unemployed, WE WILL vote them out in 2012 and WE must mean it!

[enuegii]

118. I've seen a lot of "flee and regroup" over the last 30 years...

The "come back twice as hard" part?

Not so much.

[truthspeak]

126. Health Care Reform is now law...

...as well as a lot of other liberal initiatives like investments in green tech, education etc. Are those meaningless?

[kentuck]

119. That concept has already been grasped.

How do you plan on an "overall tax reform" if Repubs are controlling the House, the Senate, and possibly the White House?

Two years from now, how do you see the tax debate going?

[truthspeak]

125. Tax Reform has support...

...from both sides, as well as the business community, not to mention the general public are not in favor of the current system. But Obama has to get on front of the issue tho...thats crucial.

[kentuck]

127. If by "tax reform", you mean lower taxes on everyone...

then the Repubs will support that. Unfortunately, it would not be enough to support half of our government's needs at the moment. Then they can say it is all about spending. But nobody wants to cut spending. Trillions and trillions more in debt.

[truthspeak]

128. The tax proposal from the debt commission...

is said to be able to simply the code as well as bring in revenue...Even if you don't agree with the specific idea (can always be modified), you should atleast admit that there is a credible blueprint available, which has gotten bi-partisan support...as well as piss off a lot of republicans lol.

[ProudDad]

134. The "tax reform" from the Cat Fud Commission

is lower taxes on the rich...

Higher taxes on the less affluent to make it up (and to pay for the big fuckin' war machine and to pay back the Chinese and the Banksters who "own the debt")...

And continuing to tear the safety net to shreds...

Very right-wing shit...

[truthspeak]

136. Question...can blueprints/framework be changed...

...or are they set in stone? Can the tax reform blueprint/framework be changed/improved or is it set in stone?

[RetroLounge]

123. "regroup and come back twice as hard"

:rofl:

Yeah, right...

RL

[Dinger]

131. True

And it is a joke RL, you are right. Not a funny one, however.

P.S. How ya doin' by the way?:hi:

[RetroLounge]

137. Pretty good.

Good to see you!

:hi:

RL

[randr]

124. Exactly right

We need to pick ourselves up, lick our wounds, and take inventory of what we have to work with.
Our loses include many Blue Dogs that we are better without. The republikants have their hands full with their own malcontents now. Obama may have successfully triangulated the situation to the degree that if things get better he gets the credit and if the continue to fall apart the repugs get blame.
We have the responsibility to keep in the faces of our reps, find new progressive blood to run, and take back control in 2012!

[Raine]

142. I thought that's what the liberals did with chimp

living another day and another day and another day for eight years till we had the majority like the past two years. :yoiks: