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Krugman calls out Dana Milbank, but rewrites history

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ProSense Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-12-10 10:36 AM
Original message
Krugman calls out Dana Milbank, but rewrites history
Edited on Sun Dec-12-10 10:54 AM by ProSense
Krugman today calls out Dana Milbank (who I can't stand). Still in doing so, Krugman does a bit of rewriting history.

I don’t usually bother looking at the Washington Post. But I’m inside the Beltway right now, so I spared a peek — and for my sins ended up reading Dana Milbank, who praises Obama for punching the hippies.

So far, so usual. But then I read this:

This is a hopeful sign that Obama has learned the lessons of the health-care debate, when he acceded too easily to the wishes of Hill Democrats, allowing them to slow the legislation and engage in a protracted debate on the public option. Months of delay gave Republicans time to make their case against “socialism” and prevented action on more pressing issues, such as job creation. Democrats paid for that with 63 seats.

Um, that’s not what happened — and I followed the health care process closely. The debate over the public option wasn’t what slowed the legislation. What did it was the many months Obama waited while Max Baucus tried to get bipartisan support, only to see the Republicans keep moving the goalposts; only when the White House finally concluded that Republican “moderates” weren’t negotiating in good faith did the thing finally get moving.

So look at how the Village constructs its mythology. The real story, of pretend moderates stalling action by pretending to be persuadable, has been rewritten as a story of how those DF hippies got in the way, until the centrists saved the day.

Pretend moderates? By Krugman's own admission, centrist Democrats held up the bill.

Krumgan

Health care reform hangs in the balance. Its fate rests with a handful of “centrist” senators — senators who claim to be mainly worried about whether the proposed legislation is fiscally responsible.

<...>

But in the closing rounds of the health care fight, the G.O.P. has focused more and more on an effort to demonize cost-control efforts. The Senate bill would impose “draconian cuts” on Medicare, says Senator John McCain, who proposed much deeper cuts just last year as part of his presidential campaign. “If you’re a senior and you’re on Medicare, you better be afraid of this bill,” says Senator Tom Coburn.

If these tactics work, and health reform fails, think of the message this would convey: It would signal that any effort to deal with the biggest budget problem we face will be successfully played by political opponents as an attack on older Americans. It would be a long time before anyone was willing to take on the challenge again; remember that after the failure of the Clinton effort, it was 16 years before the next try at health reform.

That’s why anyone who is truly concerned about fiscal policy should be anxious to see health reform succeed. If it fails, the demagogues will have won, and we probably won’t deal with our biggest fiscal problem until we’re forced into action by a nasty debt crisis.

So to the centrists still sitting on the fence over health reform: If you care about fiscal responsibility, you better be afraid of what will happen if reform fails.


Krugman

I still believe that Obama could have gotten a bigger stimulus. Yes, he needed some Senate “centrists”, but my read is that they were determined to take a slice off whatever he proposed — so he could have proposed more and gotten more. It was very different from health care, where it was really about policy rather than essentially arbitrary numbers.

Obama could definitely have taken a harder line with banks.

Obama could also have done a lot more to change the discourse — less hope and change and let’s end the partisan bickering, more conservatives have the wrong ideas and we need to undo the damage.

But on health care, I don’t see how he could have gotten much more. How could he have made Joe Lieberman less, um, Liebermanish? And I have to say that much as I disagree with Ben Nelson about many things, he has seemed refreshingly honest, at least in the final stages, about what he will and won’t accept. Meanwhile the fact is that Republicans have formed a solid bloc of opposition to Obama’s ability to do, well, anything.


Krugman

So, will health care reform fail because a lazy candidate didn’t bother campaigning and didn’t know her Red Sox? (Yes, there were national factors at work, but Nate Silver makes it clear that a better candidate would have won easily). It’s up to the House, which can and should just pass the Senate bill.

Unfortunately, quite a few representatives seem to be in panic mode. And that’s just dumb.

First of all, the strategy of playing Republican-lite, and hoping that you’ll be left alone, has been tried — and failed disastrously. Remember 2002?

Second, David Axelrod is right: the campaign against HCR has been based on lies, and the only way to refute those lies (and stop them from being rolled out again and again) is to pass the thing, and let people see it in action. It’s too bad startup is delayed under the Senate bill — but even so, that’s what you have to do.

Finally, Democrats have to realize that politics isn’t just about where you stand on issues, it’s about perceptions of a party’s character. The rap on Dems has always been that they’re wimps — and giving in on such a central part of the party’s agenda, emerging from two years in power with nothing major to show for it, will play right into that perception.


Krugman

Well, this certainly sounds like it’s a go. That’s the style, Mr. President!

If this works out — I’d think the odds now are that it will, though it’s by no means a done deal — there will be endless debate about whether Anthem Blue Cross was wot did it. My sense is that a final push was always available, as long as the White House was willing to take a stand; Anthem may just have helped provide an occasion.

Extra dividend: Jonathan Chait is right, conservatives will freak out. They’ve already been celebrating the defeat of HCR, failing to notice that Democrats have actually passed a bill in both houses, and still have a huge majority. And there will be cries of foul play — how dare Democrats actually follow the Constitution!


Krugman

Yes, I know, someone is going to tell me that this isn’t fundamental — but the truth is that the bill the Senate is about to pass looks a lot like the Obama campaign plan, so something real has happened. Give credit to Obama, or Harry Reid, or whoever; the fact is that four months ago the usual suspects were gleefully writing the obituary for reform, and have been sorely disappointed.


It's easy to smack down Milbank's divisive bullshit without claiming that moderate Democrats weren't part of the problem.


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5X Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-12-10 10:58 AM
Response to Original message
1. I can tell who is rewriting history, and it isn't Krugman. n/t
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ProSense Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-12-10 11:06 AM
Response to Reply #1
2. Who?
Did Krugman say this: "Health care reform hangs in the balance. Its fate rests with a handful of “centrist” senators — senators who claim to be mainly worried about whether the proposed legislation is fiscally responsible."

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mazzarro Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-12-10 11:53 AM
Response to Reply #2
7. Max Bacaus, Blanche Lincoln, Joe Liberman to name a few on the demo's side
and their rethuglican counterparts that were supposed to be open minded in the negotiation of the HCR but were indeed playing the democrats all along? And if you don't recall that, then you might be rewriting what actually transpired.
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ProSense Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-12-10 11:15 AM
Response to Original message
3. Here is Steve Benen smacking down Milbank
Steve Benen

<...>

That's not even close to being correct.

First, there was a "protracted debate," but it had nothing to do with the public option. Senate Finance Committee Chairman Max Baucus (D-Mont.) led the "Gang of Six" negotiations, which added three months to the fight over health care, all in the hopes of striking a bipartisan deal that clearly wasn't going to happen. Baucus' delay was an awful, pointless mistake, but it had nothing to do with the public option, and it was Republicans in the "gang," not Democrats, who deliberately slowed things down.

Second, the delay had no bearing on Republicans' rhetoric on "socialism" -- the right was making that argument before, during, and after the vote. Indeed, note that the GOP is still calling the Affordable Care Act "socialism," despite the fact that it makes no sense at all, long after the public option's demise.

Third, the Republicans' rhetoric on this was a dud -- the GOP was desperate to turn the public against the public option, but it was consistently one of the most popular elements of the plan. The provision was scuttled, not because "socialism" attacks worked, but because center-right members of the Senate Democratic caucus vowed to kill the entire reform initiative unless the idea was removed.

And finally, there was plenty of additional time to pass more legislation on job creation -- Congress can walk and chew gum at the same time -- but Republicans refused to allow votes on measures related to economic growth. Passing health care reform wasn't to blame.

I don't really care about Milbank assuming that angry liberals is evidence of progress, but rewriting recent history is never a good idea.

Certainly, the Republicans are to blame for not cooperating, but the "Gang of Six" negotiations were themselves a product of centrist Democrats.



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hulka38 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-12-10 11:19 AM
Response to Original message
4. I don't mean to
get on you but would you in your own words take a minute to make your argument as explicitly as you can about Krugman's take on centrist Dems in the Senate and how it's wrong?
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ProSense Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-12-10 11:22 AM
Response to Reply #4
5. "would you in your own words take a minute to make your argument as explicitly
...as you can about Krugman's take on centrist Dems in the Senate and how it's wrong?"

It's not wrong. I completely agree with his previous take. I disagree with his current claim that centrists weren't a factor.





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hulka38 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-12-10 11:50 AM
Response to Reply #5
6. I think he's still saying
that centrists Dems in the Senate were a factor and that they pretended to be persuadable and that was the reason for the dealy which gave the Republicans time to gain traction. From what you've posted, I don't think you've made a strong case that Krugman has been inconsistent on this.
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ProSense Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-12-10 11:59 AM
Response to Reply #6
8. No, what
Krugman is doing here is twisting Republican obstruction:

Um, that’s not what happened — and I followed the health care process closely. The debate over the public option wasn’t what slowed the legislation. What did it was the many months Obama waited while Max Baucus tried to get bipartisan support, only to see the Republicans keep moving the goalposts; only when the White House finally concluded that Republican “moderates” weren’t negotiating in good faith did the thing finally get moving.


Republicans weren't negotiating in good faith, but centerists, including those among the Gang of Six, were trying to get consensus while still opposing much of what Democrats wanted.

When it came time to pass the bill, Democrats still had to rely on reconciliation, leaving out the public option. That did not fail because of Republicans.


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hulka38 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-12-10 12:26 PM
Response to Reply #8
9. The given is that Republicans weren't negotiating in good faith.
I think we can agree that everyone including Krugman has been consistent on that. Krugman's point that the moderate "Gang of Six" also weren't negotiating in good faith (Republicans moving the goalposts) and that it took a long time for Obama to realize that is, I think, also correct. But the point of the OP is that Krugman has been inconsistent and I haven't seen where Krugman contradicts himself in what you've posted and certainly not in what you've highlighted above.

The Senate could have passed the PO thru reconciliation but that is a separate point that Krugman and Milbank did not get into and is not relevant to the discussion.


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ProSense Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-12-10 12:34 PM
Response to Reply #9
10. Well
there was a need to establish that Republicans were not negotiating in good faith. When Democrats finally decided to do reconciliation, there were objections even among Democrats.

"The Senate could have passed the PO thru reconciliation but that is a separate point that Krugman and Milbank did not get into and is not relevant to the discussion."

The bill passed through reconciliation with no public option.

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John Q. Citizen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-12-10 12:42 PM
Response to Reply #10
11. No it didn't pass through reconciliation. The senate passed a bill while
Kennedy was still alive and they had 60 votes. Then later the house passed the same bill even though they hated it because the Dems no longer had 60 votes in the senate.

No Senate Bill passed with the reconciliation process on health care. If it did, then it's only temporary. Bush passed his tax cuts through the Senate with reconciliation , which is why they weren't permanent.
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ProSense Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-12-10 01:08 PM
Response to Reply #11
14. Did a Senate bill with pass that included a public option?
No, and neither did the conference report that pass via reconciliation.

The Senate bill passed with 60 votes, with Kirk in Kennedy's seat.

That bill did not include a public option. Why?


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John Q. Citizen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-12-10 03:01 PM
Response to Reply #14
18. Because the Senate didn't pass a public option
The house passed the first bill with a shrunk down little tinsy tiny PO

the Senate passed it's bill without a PO

They didn't agree on a number of areas, but they were identical in some areas.


Then, the house ended up passing a bill that agreed with the Senate bill so that Obama had a bill to sign.

That bill, like the Senate Bill, had no tinsy tiny public option. Max and Obama didn't want a PO because Obama and Max bargained it away in Feb 09.


Reconciliation was not used. Reconciliation requires 51 votes to pass, minimum.





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Go2Peace Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-12-10 03:07 PM
Response to Reply #14
19. Because the President didn't PUSH for it!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Damn, I think it is quite obvious by now to anyone without blinders. The President did not fight for the public option. The way the president expresses his "support" was wavering and obvious, and the lack of leadership for it ultimately is what doomed it.
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ProSense Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-12-10 03:10 PM
Response to Reply #19
20. Congress has a job, they need to do it
The President shouldn't have to push them for everything, especially if they have the votes. If they had passed a public option, the President would have signed it.

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hulka38 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-12-10 01:04 PM
Response to Reply #10
12. Let's not side track this into a debate about reconciliation
Your OP was about Krugman being inconsistent right and "rewriting history"? Let's keep it there, please. Do you have a reply to this:

"The given is that Republicans weren't negotiating in good faith. I think we can agree that everyone including Krugman has been consistent on that. Krugman's point that the moderate "Gang of Six" also weren't negotiating in good faith (Republicans moving the goalposts) and that it took a long time for Obama to realize that is, I think, also correct. But the point of the OP is that Krugman has been inconsistent and I haven't seen where Krugman contradicts himself in what you've posted and certainly not in what you've highlighted above."
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LiberalFighter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-12-10 01:08 PM
Response to Reply #9
13. The blame should be placed on Baucus and other "centrist" Democrats
If they had had any common sense they would had known that the Republicans were not interested in negotiating in good faith.
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LiberalFighter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-12-10 01:15 PM
Response to Original message
15. Was Obama relying on Baucus as to whether negotiations were possible with the Repugs?
And if so, was Baucus being honest with Obama?

When those handful of centrist Senators say they are concerned about it being fiscally responsible and Baucus must had been one of them. How is Baucus qualified to run the Finance committee if he can't or refuses to see that Single Payer or Public Option would be fiscally conservative?

And after reading his wiki bio I absolutely don't trust the guy.
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Hello_Kitty Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-12-10 01:18 PM
Response to Original message
16. The "pretend moderates" he's referring to are Republicans
And the new narrative is that dirty hippie progressive legislators held up HCR and the Blue Dogs were the heroes. Krugman is pointing out that it's b.s. and isn't being inconsistent at all.
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hulka38 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-12-10 02:00 PM
Response to Reply #16
17. I guess it's abandon ship.
All that remains is the suggestion that Krugman, who makes a good point, is full of it and the appearance of sources that back up that claim but actually do not.
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