HCR Unconstitutional? What's wrong with the govt mandate that you have to buy health Insurance?

[dennis4868]

There are in fact other examples where you are required to participate in something because the government says. For example, Social Security. People do not have a choice to participate in SS....they have to pay in it whether or not thety want the benefits.

[DrDan]

1. SS is a gov't program - the mandate applies to non-gov't, for-profit insurance companies

[dennis4868]

4. right....but...

the commerce clause applies to even purely instrastate private actions that have a cummulative affect on interstate commerce...the fact that a bunch of people dont have health insurance and get sick and go to the ER, that raises our premiums...that is a substantial affect on interstate commerce....which then gives congress the power to act....any judge who throws that provision out of the HCR law is definitely a right wing judge who is clearly partisan.

[Exilednight]

37. If you're going to argue that part of the commerce clause, then you

insurance companies need to be included under antitrust laws.

[happyslug]

2. You do NOT have to participate in Social Security, all you have to do is pay the tax.

Social Security was from its start two program, one clearly constitutional the power to tax, the other of questionable constitutionality (as the Constitution was interpreted in the 1920s and early 1930s). For that reason FDR set up Social Security independent of its tax source. Even today, you do NOT have to participate with Social Security, but you MUST pay the Tax. Worse, technically Social Security is a STATE program run by the Federal Government as an agent of the States. Any State can opt out of Social Security (None of that state's residents would get Social Security even if they applied), but the residents of that same state will still have to pay the Social Security Tax (Thus no state has ever opt NOT to make the Federal Government its agent for Social Security).

[dennis4868]

6. paying the tax = participating

you dont have a choice!

[kestrel91316]

16. Baptized members of Amish churches don't have to pay into SS

because they don't participate whatsoever, taking care of their own elderly in their community as a sacred obligation. So they have had an exemption from SS withholding/payments for years. But they also can never collect a dime from it.

[gmoney]

17. Is it too late for me to convert to Amishism?

sounds like a pretty amazing idea... during their productive years, everyone in the community contributes to help care for the elderly and infirm... gee, if only the government could come up with a plan like that...

[Jackpine Radical]

23. I used to know an accountant who filed a religious exemption

to get out of SS.

The only god I ever saw him worship was Mammon.

So I guess the two exemptions are the Mennonites and the Mammonites. (Well, OK, Amish--burt that doesn't work as well her).

[OhioBlue]

36. They have an exemption for HCR too. n/t

[Proud Liberal Dem]

3. A more apt analogy might be car insurance

Government requires you to buy car insurance from a PRIVATE insurance company under penalty of civil and/or criminal fines- if you plan on driving a car (which practically everybody has to do unless you live in major metropolitan area with good public transportation). There's certainly no "public option" when it comes to car insurance.

I don't see why requiring people to carry some form of health insurance- as part of an effort to ensure that more people can obtain coverage- is so controversial, particularly when almost everybody has or qualifies for some kind of health coverage. For health insurance companies to be able to lower prices, more people are going to have to pay into the system. I support single payer or at least having a "public option" to choose from but, unfortunately, it's going to be a slow ride to get there.

[DrDan]

7. it remains your choice to buy a car - no car, no need for the insurance

[Bluerthanblue]

11. is it legal to not have "shelter" in the US? people must purchase provide

or borrow shelter, which requires paying 'private' "companies".

There is no common land where people are allowed to live legally live on the streets.

http://www.nationalhomeless.org/publications/crimreport/meanestcities.html

[lynne]

8. Not an appropriate analogy as federal government does not force anyone to have auto insurance -

- auto insurance is handled by state and the laws vary from state to state. The easiest way to opt out is to not own/operate a vehicle. In some states you can file a surety bond showing financial responsibility in lieu of auto insurance. Some states you can pay the uninsured motorist fee if you own a car and don't want to insure it. There is no option - other than death - on the healthcare bill. If you're breathing, you must buy a policy or be fined. There's the difference.

[dennis4868]

13. But congress does force you into "buying" into social security...

and on top of that the commerce clause allows congress to regulate purely private activities if it affects interstate commerce....

[FBaggins]

19. Ah... but note that you have to put quotes around "buying"?

That's because they don't really require you to buy it. They tax you and provide the benefit themselves.

If, instead, they required you to fund your own IRA and only private companies sold IRAs, then that law would also be unconstitutional.

and on top of that the commerce clause allows congress to regulate purely private activities if it affects interstate commerce....

That's not quite the case. They can regulate interstate commerce... but they can't mandate interstate commerce. They can say that if you're going to buy a cow, it has to be a cow that has passed some federal inspection... but they can't say that you must buy a cow.

[lynne]

21. As your quotes denote, it's not "buying" into SS, it's a tax -

- so, no, not the same thing at all.

[SlimJimmy]

9. You danced around it a bit. The bottom line is, you DON'T have

to purchase auto insurance, there is no national(*federal)mandate to do so. So, they are not the the same, even if you want them to be. Is there is also a compelling case for the forced purchase of an automobile? After all, there is a combined commerce effect when all purchases are considered.

[LibDemAlways]

10. No one is forced to own a car. It certainly is inconvenient not to

have one in many areas, but it is not a necessity. Everyone on the other hand is stuck with a body, but not everyone may be able to or want to insure theirs. It really isn't the government's business to tell people what they should be able to afford when it comes to private health insurance. Each person's circumstance is different. Health insurance companies will never lower prices, no matter how many people pay into the system. They are driven only by making a profit.

I do not think the mandate will survive all of the legal challenges. Single payer/public option is the only way we will ever be able to insure everybody. (I'm not holding my breath that it will happen anytime soon.)

[former9thward]

12. Car insurance is a state law.

The interstate commerce clause is a provision of the federal constitution and applies to what the federal government can and can not do.

[TransitJohn]

15. You think health insurance companies will lower prices?

:rofl:

[Hello_Kitty]

24. The insurance you are required to buy is liability

It's to protect others from damage you inflict on others and it's part of the conditions extending you the privilege to drive. You may be required to purchase full coverage as part of the terms of your car loan, but that's a private contract. Otherwise there's no mandate to purchase insurance for yourself or your own vehicle.

[Xithras]

29. In truth, many states don't even require car insurance to drive.

If you are reasonably well off and have good credit, many states will allow you to pull a Surety Bond and opt out of car insurance entirely. You merely have to prove that you have sufficient net worth to pay out any damages you may cause (poor people need not apply), and pay a small percentage of the bond value to a bond issuer to have a bond created. I've heard of people opting out of car insurance for as little as $350 bucks.

This is usually the method taken by the wealthy, and/or car collectors. You didn't think that Jay Leno actually had insurance policies on all of those cars, did you? He pulled a single bond for less than $1,000 and opted out of car insurance for life.

So no, even when it comes to car insurance, there are no hard and fast mandates.

[Exilednight]

38. Actually, in many states you are not required to carry car insurance, but

in lieu of not having car insurance, you must instead have x amount of dollars held in a state escrow account. The typical amount is usually whatever the minimum requirements are for the state you live in.

[harun]

41. Health Insurance != Health Care

[jaxx]

5. The judge is a Bush2 appointee.

Notable cases
Patient Protection and Affordable Care Act

Hudson ruled against an element of the Obama administration's health care reform law, saying that the individual mandate provision of the law exceeded Congress' powers under the Commerce Clause of the Constitution.<1> According to the Associated Press, Hudson was "the first judge to rule against the law."<1> Many have noted that Hudson, as an owner of Campaign Solutions, Inc. (a Republican consulting firm that worked the 2010 election cycle for John Boehner, Michele Bachmann, John McCain, and other GOP candidates who've placed the purported unconstitutionality of health care reform at the center of their political platforms) had a conflict of interest inasmuch as he has received between $32,000 and $117,000 from Campaign Solutions as a result of its work on this issue<2><3>.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Henry_E._Hudson

[Creative]

14. SS is a tax collected by the government. This is forced commerce.

[Supersedeas]

20. would be interesting to read the VA AG's brief in this matter

[Creative]

31. He made an unusual argument--it was the least costly way ($350) possible.

http://www.vaag.com/PRESS_RELEASES/Cuccinelli/PLAINTIFF'S%20-%20Mem%20in%20Opp%20to%20MTD%20-%20FINAL%206710%20-%20FILED.pdf

[ThePhilosopher04]

28. Social Security taxes...

is not forced commerce...it's a tax. Forcing someone to buy private, for profit insurance, IS forcing someone to participate in commerce, that's why the judge appropriately struck it down.

[Creative]

30. Uh...perhaps I wasn't as clear as I should have been, but that was my point.

SS = taxes
Forced to buy health insurance = forced commerce.

[wmbrew0206]

33. It is a tax. The government is not forcing anyone to buy a product from a private company.

[jenmito]

18. He's a RW judge. It was judged Constitutional by at least 2 DEM.-appointed judges but I don't

recall much coverage of THOSE decisions.

[wmbrew0206]

35. Doesn't really matter either way. This one is going to SCOTUS.

[Thrill]

22. We'll they stop making me buy Car Insurance then?

If the healthcare mandate is unconstitutional? Why aren't taxes as well

[Hello_Kitty]

26. How many times does this lousy analogy have to be debunked?

About the only things that auto and health insurance have in common is that they're both called "insurance". Otherwise they are apples and oranges.

[Creative]

27. It's really quite simple, "they" do not require you to buy auto insurance.

You made that decision by virtue of the fact that you chose to drive.

People did not have a choice under this legislation and the fact that it passed demonstrates that a majority in the Congress does not understand the Constitution.

[blazerunner]

25. You do not have to pay SS or Medicare. Sorry, try again.

[MadHound]

32. Because this mandate forces you to purchase a product, from a private corporation,

Under penalty of law. This is unprecedented in our country, and I agree that it is unconstitutional.

[wmbrew0206]

34. To add to this thought, if Congress has the power to force individuals

to buy a health insurance from a private company for the general welfare of society, what else can Congress dictate individuals also need to purchase?

[Exilednight]

39. Next up:

Shit on a stick, and you have to call it sunshine.

[harun]

40. Make the Health Insurance insured and run by the Federal Gov't and fine. Make me buy

from UHC, the most evil Corporation on the planet, and we got a constitutional issue.