A Bow To Reality

[DemocratSinceBirth]

83-15. That was the vote for cloture.

Does anybody think if this compromise fails that a similar bill could be defeated in the new Congress when there will be sixty two more Republicans in the House and six more in the Senate? And does anybody think President Obama will veto his "own" bill?

The Republicans have already promised, if this bill fails, to pass a similar bill in the new Congress, presumably without the goodies we like, which include tax cuts for the working poor, extended unemployment insurance, and payroll tax cuts.

I oppose tax cuts for the rich and a reduction in the estate tax. There are hills I am ready to die for but this is a hill I am not ready to die for, especially when it will be taken over my dead body and the bodies of the working poor and the three and one half million Americans who will lose their unemployment insurance by January 31st if there is no bill.

[jefferson_dem]

1. To quote General Buck Turgidson in Dr. Strangelove...

~ "Mr. President, we are rapidly approaching a moment of truth...Now, truth is not always a pleasant thing, but it is necessary now to make a choice, to choose between two admittedly regrettable, but nevertheless, distinguishable (tax cut plans)."

[DemocratSinceBirth]

2. This Is My One Of My Favorite Quotes Which I Use On A Variety Of Topics

Because its applications are universal.

"Facts are stubborn things; and whatever may be our wishes, our inclinations, or the dictates of our passion, they cannot alter the state of facts and evidence."

-John Adams

[cornermouse]

3. You're right.

Going along to get along now is more important than watching the elderly lose their homes and living on the streets a few years from now.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

5. Now Is January 1st. How Do We Stop The Bill Then?

I have an open ear.

A Congress with less Republicans just passed the bill with the president's suport. How do we prevent the bill from being passed in the next Congress when there are more Republicans and the president still supports it?

And I am not willing to risk the real danger of throwing four million Americans and their families in the street in the dead of Winter 2011 for the imaginary danger of throwing anybody in the street in an undefined future.



on edit- The tax cuts passed by the new Congress will probably be permanent.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

6. Tumbleweed

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[cornermouse]

9. So now we're timing people's replies?

At this point we can't. Congress appears to have gone stupid too so we wait and we watch grandma and grandpa lose their social security and either move out on the streets or move in with the kiddies, one of whom will then have to quit their job and lose income that was keeping the roof over their own heads so that they can supervise grandma and/grandpa's care. Hopefully people will get smart again after that. However to suggest that we sacrifice grandma and grandpa later in order to avert the oncoming disaster is pretty darn short-sighted and when I consider the whole thing could have been averted if Obama and Congress had managed to find some spine among them and done the right thing instead of the easy, expedient, makes for good photo ops thing....

[DemocratSinceBirth]

10. I Never Defended The Bill. My Comments Are To Its Inevitability

If your position is the bill is not inevitable it is incumbent upon you to show why it isn't. This isn't one of these theoretical debates where we will have to wait years or decades or forever to know the outcome. We only have to wait until next month.


Nobody on Social Security will be thrown out of their homes or go hungry because their Social Security lapsed in the next thirteen months. People who lose their unemployment insurance will. But that's irrelevant because if the bill endgangers Social Security, which I am far from convinced it does it will still pass, except under the Republican Congress the unemployed will be immediately endangered because it's likely the Republicans will exclude unemployment insurance from their bill...

[cornermouse]

11. Exactly like I said.

Shortsighted. Looking at the immediate and ignoring what is down the road a year at most, not years.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

12. I Already Accepted Your Premise It's A Deeply Flawed Bill

How do we prevent it from passing in the next Congress when the Republicans can pass it with four Democratic votes in the Senate after they demonstrated they have at least thirty.

Any rational calculation of this bill results in the conclusion that it is virtually inevitable.

[ZombieHorde]

20. Three minutes? God forbid someone leaves their computer, gets a drink, and uses the bathroom.

Damn people forever if they go school or work, make a phone call, take a nap, go out to breakfast, or bathe.

[liberal N proud]

4. I believe that is the predicament

Give now and get something or simply give later.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

19. The Difference Between A Spam Sandwich And Starving

.

[vi5]

7. Look, I realize this will probably fall on deaf ears...

But it's possible to believe that at this point this is the best deal we can get. It definitely is.

It's also possible to hold the view that the deal itself is shitty because the President gave up far too much at the outset before negotiations even began and without much of a fight at all (to say nothing of negotiating directly with the Republicans without including his own party).

It's also possible to hold the view that the deal itself is also shitty because the House and Senate waited until after the election.

So yeah, it's entirely right to say this is the best deal we can get at this point and definitely better than what we would get after January.

However it's also entirely right to say we are at this point because our Democratic leadership at every level are a bunch of cowardly, shortsighted, fools who can't message to save their lives and are practically useless.

So sure. I'll bow to the reality that this is the best we can get. But I don't have to be happy about it and there's absolutely nobody on "our side" worth cheering or applauding which is what a lot of people on here seem to be asking. And I'll also bow to another reality which is that if this is it. If this is the best we are going to get then I have to bow to the reality that it may just not be worth giving a fuck any more, and definitely not worth expending countless of hours of my time, countless dollars and countless measures of stress and energy fighting for a party that is content to throw little more than a few scraps to the majority of Americans.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

8. We Were Clearly Outmaneuvered

It all come back to the economy. A president's popularity and his ability to move public opinion is inextricably linked to the health of the economy. The stronger the economy the more popular he or she is and the more he or she can move popular opinion. A weak economy means a weakened president and that's what we have. Given his bargaining position he could have got a worse deal or no deal. And if he got no deal the Repubs would just pass a more onerous bill by themselves.



on edit- let's see what happens after we regroup. I was taught when you get knocked down, you brush yourself off, and try again.
Please don't give up on the process. As I said in my OP there are stil "hills to die for."

[vi5]

13. I'm a pragmatic person...

I'd even call myself according to normal, non-wingnut tainted terms a "centrist".

But the fact is I'm also a negotiator by profession and training (albeit in a business context and not politics). And just watching how these negotiations have been done by our leaders, with a completely defeatist mentality and a showing of ones hand at the outset of every single thing they're trying to negotiate just baffles me. That's what gets me. I can handle a defeat or a middle ground after a tough fought battle. But I cannot deal with the way things are being done. To me it reflects either outright, calculating malfeasance or complete incompetence. Neither option makes me happy and neither option makes me want to pick up arms (figuratively) and fight along side any of these people, and definitely not as my leaders.

I'm not new to the process. I've been politically involved, and politically engaged, and politically active for over 25 years since I was old enough to vote. I've supported and stood by the Democratic party through everything they've done during that time period. Even if at times it led to disappointments(which are no doubt inevitable. We can't win them all) it never led to disillusionment which is where I'm finding myself now.

And as for the arguments and debates on here, I'm fine with people saying "It is what it is." and "This is the best we could do." The only thing I really end up resenting is the people telling me we should be happy and applauding these endless defeats.

[Clio the Leo]

14. kick nt

[tk2kewl]

15. V-E-T-O

they should be allowed to pass a more regressive bill and then it should be vetoed

[DemocratSinceBirth]

16. Does Anybody Work Things Out To It's End

If they pass a roughly identical bill in the new Congress after it was defeated in a Democratic Congress and he passes it the only thing that is accomplished is that he looks like a woefully ineffective leader and the thirty Dems in the Senate who voted for it look like nimcompoops.

And while all this is going on another 3.4 millilon Americans lose their unemployment insurance.

[lunatica]

17. Acceptance of the facts is the 5th stage of grief

Getting to that stage is the hard part. But now we know the truth and no matter how harsh it is, it's always better to deal realistically with the truth.

[PufPuf23]

18. Best deal that the People are going to get so pass it now.

POTUS Obama got what he intended.

The good of the nation would be repeal of wealthy tax cuts, no employment tax holiday, a rise in FICA income, and progressive estate taxes (I was Executor of Dad's estate in 1996, first $600,000 exempt then 40%).

[ZombieHorde]

21. Recommended. edit: oh shit, I lied, this thread is too old to rec.

So let's just say I agree with the premise. Our situation is going to get worse, not better.

[WiffenPoof]

22. This Is Just So Sad...

and frustrating....at least to me.

Regardless of the reason, the President is negotiating from a weakened position due to past capitulations. Even if that isn't the reason, he is perceived as weak and that is the same thing.

I'm sorry...I simply see this as a major "fail" on the part of both the President and the Congress. There is no other way to interpret what has happened.

Just think about it...

The President comes into office with major support and a mandate (or at least a near mandate)...How do you go from such a strong position to where we are now? I just don't get it.

You know, it wasn't that long ago that the republicans were said to be on their death bed. Remember? People were saying that it would be years before they would rise again. It too less than two years to see the Republicans rise from the dead and now wield the kind of power that we thought we would not see for years. They couldn't have done this without the other side.

I'm just beyond words...I guess "incompetence" comes to mind.

-PLA

[treestar]

23. It's a good thing they were expiring

Without the tax cuts expiring, there would be no bargaining chip. Had the Republicans had their way, the cuts would have been permanent to begin with.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

24. That's Ironic

We wouldn't get UI. We wouldn't get making work pay, and we wouldn't be getting the payroll tax cut, which is the only thing controversial among the left.