I would like DU to welcome regular discussions of race, sexual orientation, gender, religion. . .

[wndycty]

. . .class* for one simple reason, as progressive we should consistently seek a deeper understanding of one another.

There are many reasons why I am a progressive/Democrat, but as an African American not only do I enjoy our party's diversity I have a belief that unlike Republicans, Democrats have the ability to discuss these issues in a constructive manner that leads to understanding.

I encourage all of you to welcome these discussion and to do so in constructive manner.

* added per request on edit, not omitted on purpose.

[izquierdista]

1. Those really are less important topics

To people who don't have a job, or are being foreclosed, or have run out of food, or have an illness and no insurance, or even an illness and insurance that refuses to pay.

[Donnachaidh]

2. +10000 n/t

[wndycty]

3. Really? Think about the role race plays in unemployment, poverty, banking, healthcare. . .

. . .talk to some people of color and mention those problems and learn how race does play a role in addressing those problems.

[roguevalley]

18. those are good topics and I hope that respect is shown to each

side. some of them don't accord respect for someone else's position on some of those topics. It causes wars every time.

[uppityperson]

4. Unless those are underlying causes for those conditions. Are you saying don't talk about

causes until the illness is cured? Don't talk about reasons for economic inequality until people have jobs, etc?

[wndycty]

5. You would think a progressive/Democrat would understand that. . .

. . .wouldn't you?

[msongs]

6. already violating your own OP lol nt

[izquierdista]

7. First, stop the bleeding.

America has been hemorrhaging jobs, jobs that African-Americans had, jobs that gays had, jobs that women had. I even know Mexicans who couldn't find work any more, so they moved back to Mexico.

It seems to me the Occupy Wall Street movement is where attention should be focused for the present. Maybe while they are sitting there occupying, they can chat about race or gender or orientation, but I'll stick with what I said -- they are less important.

[uppityperson]

21. Simply stopping the bleeding won't help if you are still poised over the knives

Since we are into medical analogies, let's take a person who has fallen into a combine and has had one arm severely mangled. Simply stopping the bleeding won't help unless you also get them away from the machine so they don't fall into it with their other arm.

Yes, work on jobs, on employment. But also talk about the underlying issues. Multitask. Put pressure on that bleeding wound and get the person to a place where they won't get injured further.

[EffieBlack]

9. Your comment evidences a reason this SHOULD be discussed

The fact that you don't believe this issue is relevant or important shows that you haven't heard or don't understand that this issue is VERY IMPORTANT to some people. I don't say this as a criticism or value judgment. But it does demonstrate the problem with not talking about it - it leads some people to assume that it isn't an issue because the majority with the loudest voices and bigger platform don't think it is (or want it to be).

[wndycty]

11. Exactly

:kick:

[totodeinhere]

10. Nothing is more important than race relations in our country. If I don't have a job

that is a bad situation, but it doesn't mean that because I am jobless I am not going to care about race relations anymore. Being unemployed doesn't mean that you are suddenly cut off from all of the other important issues facing our country.

[wndycty]

12. And when you consider the rate of unemployment in communities of color. . .

. . .race matters.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

29. no they are not. nt

[seaglass]

8. Not going to happen here. Too much distrust. n/t

[customerserviceguy]

13. Good luck with that

Every discussion that I see here on those issues always devolves to a "you really can't understand me, because you're not in the affected minority group, and any attempt on your part to tell me how I should feel (by telling me how you feel) is just racism/sexism/homophobia/religious bigotry."

If we could have discussions without that, you might see some useful interchanges of ideas, but I really don't hold out a lot of hope for that.

[EffieBlack]

19. I STRONGLY disagree with your characterization

You're right that that sentiment is often expressed. But it is almost always in response to being lectured to, shouted down and accused of "playing the race card," "making a big deal about race," and "accusing all white liberals (or me or us) of being a racist."

Contrary to the attitude you allege, countless efforts have been made by minorities here to share their experiences so that others who have not had such experiences can better understand and, hopefully, have more insight and empathy. And, sadly, as a result we are frequently dismissed, taunted, ridiculed and accused of being whiners, divisive, and racist - usually by the same cadre of people who follow us from thread to thread complaining that they're being victimized and demanding that we "STFU about it, already!"

Given this, telling such people that they don't understand what it's like to be in our shoes is incredibly restrained, downright charitable and considerably kinder than they really deserve.

[customerserviceguy]

20. I'm certainly not saying that every poster here does this

However, if all a poster expects as a response is "Attaboy, right on, tell it like it is!" and they get something less than that, there's a tendency for the "you just don't understand" types to chime in.

See, I can't even protest the protesting without having you do it. I guess I learned my lesson!

[EffieBlack]

23. Excuse me?!

Please explain how anything I said in my post translates into: "you really can't understand me, because you're not in the affected minority group, and any attempt on your part to tell me how I should feel (by telling me how you feel) is just racism/sexism/homophobia/religious bigotry."

If you believe that by expressing my point of view and trying to help you understand a different perspective, I am somehow attacking you or accusing you of bigotry, you have learned the wrong "lesson" in these discussions.

[TomClash]

14. Note that class is not mentioned

What a surprise.

[wndycty]

16. You are nitpicking, if you would like I can add it? I didn't omit it on purpose. . .

. . .but if you want to complain go right ahead and have your feeling hurt go right ahead that is what we do at DU.

Adding now.

[TomClash]

24. My feelings aren't hurt at all

In fact, I appreciate the edit.

Even now, it's common for educated middle and upper middle class "progressives" to exclude class as an issue worth mentioning.

[jpgray]

15. OK. Let's talk homophobia

When a large number of party leaders promote and pander to homophobic religious leaders, while refusing to provide any explicit or consistent support for equal rights (say for marriage), are they and those who defend them bigots? Do those who dismiss concerns about this have any standing to demand consideration for their own concerns? Is condemning a president's policies on an equal ground of bigotry with denying basic human rights? If you like, perhaps these leaders in our party are not bigoted themselves, but what can we say about their efforts to win the votes and money of bigots?

[wndycty]

17. If you are referring to POTUS I believe he is run on the issue of marriage equity. . .

. . .I have consistently stated that.

However I would take exception with the statement that he has refused "to provide any explicit or consistent support for equal rights."

If you look at his overall record on LGBT issues and conclude he is homophobic I won't agree with you, HOWEVER I won't condemn you for that belief. We all view things through different prisms. I had no problem with folks who didn't agree with Melissa Harris Perry, however I had a huge issue with those who condemned/attacked her.

[jpgray]

22. It isn't so much personal homophobia, and it's by no means limited to Obama

Association and friendship with Rick Warren, however, is excused in ways association and friendship with an avowed racist would not be.

[wndycty]

25. I agree

:kick:

[treestar]

30. Obama reaches out to others

That's the way he rolls. Maybe there is some argument against that tactic. But an exclusion tactic has a lot to say against it. We didn't like it when the right acted like we didn't count, too bad, we've beaten you attitude that the Republicans had. We were Americans too.

PBO just didn't reverse that, since that's not how he is - he thinks reaching out to them is more likely to soften their positions - I tend to think he is right about that. Those who wanted him to scorn the right wingers and tell them too bad, their opinion was to be excluded overlook that fact that such an approach usually gets people to harden their positions on a subject.

[Donald Ian Rankin]

31. My answers.

>When a large number of party leaders promote and pander to homophobic religious leaders, while refusing to provide any explicit or consistent support for >equal rights (say for marriage), are they and those who defend them bigots?

Probably not; pandering to a bigot doesn't make you one.



>Do those who dismiss concerns about this have any standing to demand consideration for their own concerns?

I don't think that one needs "standing" to raise an argument; those concerns should stand or fall on their own merits. If a bad person makes a good point, it's still a good point.



>Is condemning a president's policies on an equal ground of bigotry with denying basic human rights?

I think this must be a typo?



>If you like, perhaps these leaders in our party are not bigoted themselves, but what can we say about their efforts to win the votes and money of
> bigots?

There's no general answer to this. There are not enough people in America who support full equality for gays for a politician to win election without the votes of a good number of those who don't, but the goal should be to get as many of those votes for as few concessions on gay rights as possible. Every such effort needs to be evaluated on its own rights - what is given up vs what is gained.

[JohnnyLib2]

26. Agreed.

[Mimosa]

27. We already do.

WndyCty, I am absolutely certain of one thing here re: your topic.

Too much navel-gazing and the resulting infighting distracts us from fighting the real enemies.

[treestar]

28. I've found that if you're not a member of the group

you'd better agree with those who are - at least some DUers tell us out and out that we have no right to say anything and should just listen.

Which may be fair enough. White people for example will have a lot of blinders. White privilege is such that we never had to deal with the issue the same way, or can do so from that point.

I remember saying look, I don't like being called a racist and getting about a zillion sneering replies of oh poor you, that's the worst thing that happened to you?

Which I suppose is fair enough. White liberals just want to think they are beyond all that and that's a big barrier. Hell, even right wingers like to dodge the charge and claim it's something else. I often think it's a good thing that at least they don't want to admit it (as opposed to openly racist white supremacists).