L.A. school lawyers printed off 90 pages of librarian's blog. Used it against her at hearing.

[madfloridian]

Are you uneasy yet? I am.

The other day we learned that school district lawyers in Los Angeles were interrogating librarian/teachers with police standing by.

On most days, they work in middle schools and high schools operated by the Los Angeles Unified School District, fielding student queries about American history and Greek mythology, and retrieving copies of vampire novels.

But this week, you'll find them in a makeshift LAUSD courtroom set up on the bare concrete floor of a building on East 9th Street. Several sit in plastic chairs, watching from an improvised gallery as their fellow librarians are questioned.

A court reporter takes down testimony. A judge grants or denies objections from attorneys. Armed police officers hover nearby. On the witness stand, one librarian at a time is summoned to explain why she — the vast majority are women — should be allowed to keep her job.

Treating librarians almost like criminals. When did it come to this. Unfortunately one librarian has a blog on which she spoke her mind.

Librarian/educator, Los Angeles.."My employer has become my enemy'

“I can observe on my right hand side the attorneys for United Teachers Los Angeles, who are the men that will make my case when the time comes. Their table is laden with binders nearly eight inches thick that are filled with the thousands of documents we teachers have entered into evidence. These are teaching credentials, lesson plans, and letters of recommendation, among other things.... On my left is the school district’s table of attorneys. They have a plastic cart filled with evidence binders and their own files of information collected on each of us in what I can only assume was a rather hurried manner....My employer has become my enemy.

...""Today I am furloughed. Tomorrow I go back to the hearings to plead my case. I do not want to. The next day I go back to school to prepare the library to be closed forever, or to be run a few hours a week by a reluctant clerk, or to be ransacked. The questions continue to pile up, but no answers are forthcoming. Stand by for further developments. Hurry up and wait.

At the bottom of all of this is a political reality that I find so daunting, so dark, that to enter into a discussion of it strikes fear in my heart and nausea in my belly. I believe that this is part of a larger movement in our city (and state, and finally, nation) towards a for-profit education model that takes pressure off of elected officials and puts money in the pockets of clever financiers.

The lawyers for the school district who were conducting this inquisition went to her blog, printed off the pages and used them against her in the courtroom.

Here is her stunned response at her blog.

Message Received

After an hour of testimony and an hour lunch break, I returned to the stand feeling pretty good. I had answered well and was confident that I would continue to do so. That was until my entire personal blog, 90 pages of posts dating back to 2007, was brought out in printed form and submitted to the court. The lawyers had scoured my musings for ammo, and they found some key posts that did, in fact, make me look like a bit of an idiot for a moment or two. Taken so far out of the context of a school, and particularly my school, some of these posts made it seem as if I was full of it when I testified that I am a competent and active teacher. I wrote about days when I didn't feel much like teaching, or days when I didn't feel that I had taught very much. I wrote about the nature of my job in the library and its clerical demands, and how on some days I felt like I did nothing but shelve books. I wrote about allowing students to watch a movie trailer for Twilight. I wrote about having a slow day in the library. I wrote about times when my teaching practice seemed to be eroding slowly because of the cuts in clerical staff, meetings, etc. I wrote about times when kids worked collaboratively as I stood back and observed, therefore not directly 'teaching'. I wrote about feeling frustrated over the struggle to teach certain content. I wrote honestly and emotionally, reflectively, as one does on one's personal blog.

So, yes, I wrote about times when I wasn't delivering direct instruction, and they claimed this evidence impeached my testimony that I 'constantly' teach. Well, obviously I used the word 'constantly' in the widely accepted usage meaning very frequently (I constantly go to the gym. I constantly go to the movies.) No teacher, not one, constantly teaches in the literal sense of the word. We use the bathroom, we eat lunch, we chat with other teachers, we file papers, we clean the classroom, and yes, we do make personal phone calls sometimes or even, god forbid, answer a personal email between classes. I failed to mention at the hearing, and I'm still kicking myself for it, that as the librarian, I am at school about 2.5-3 months more per year than the classroom teachers due to our year-round schedule.

I would love for some of the pro-reform folks here to please jump right in here and defend this outrage. Please do. Is it even legal to use a teacher/librarian's blog against her in court? Have we really come to that?

Here's the heartbreaker part from the librarian.

Then I remember that I am a great teacher, a really great one, and that they are the ones who are losing here. The children love me and I love them. Teachers love me and I love them. I belong in a school.

Then I have another wave of terror and I just don't know. That they did this to me, made me feel like this, is the worst part of all.

I have less than twenty days left at my school, in my library, with LAUSD. This morning, I don't even want to go back for a single one of those days. Of course, at the same time, I want to go back and work in that school forever. Nine years of my life have been spent there. I've taught whole families of kids there. In my days remaining, I hope to enjoy my students and my library and to prepare that spacious, well-stocked room for whatever comes next, be it clerks or kiosks. And then I will bid LAUSD a fond farewell.

Yes, we have come to this type of disgraceful interrogation of experienced, trained, educated teacher/librarians.

We have done so with the apparent blessing of a Democratic administration.

[madfloridian]

1. I hope someone defends this and tells me I am over reacting.

Please do it.

[Name removed]

2. Deleted message

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[barbtries]

41. nope.

i find no defense for the actions of the LAUSD and their rotten lawyers.

[Freddie Stubbs]

44. You are overreacting

This is a legal proceeding. As with many legal proceedings, law enforcement is present. It is also common in a legal proceeding to present evidence which will corroborate or rebut testimony. It would appear that this woman's blog did the latter.

[Name removed]

72. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[lolly]

89. The very fact that it is a "legal proceeding" is the outrage

There has never been any charge of negligence or corruption on the part of LAUSD librarians.

Why are they paraded in front of a judge as if they had done something criminally wrong?

What the hell kind of society even asks to ask the question "are librarians worth it?"--much less require librarians to submit to this humiliating process to defend their profession.

[Recursion]

97. The librarians sued

Not the district. The librarians.

The district decided to close a lot of school libraries. Bad idea; we all agree about that.

But some of the librarians laid off as a result sued to get the same seniority protections classroom teachers have (protections that were themselves reduced I think last year -- I'm pro union but seniority rules are something I'm at best ambivalent about). The district did not start an inquisition and drag her to a court room; she sued for redress.

[Scuba]

131. Bingo. n/t

[xxqqqzme]

151. A legal proceeding for what purpose?

Is this to be likened to a grand jury searching for some objectionable offense? A legal proceeding to close schools? A legal proceeding to fish all possible waters to find 'cause' to fire teachers district wide? If this is fishing expedition, which it appears to be, these teachers should be advised to plead the 5th.

[msanthrope]

156. The union contract allows employees to contest RIF. In a hearing.

It isn't about being fired for cause, but about whether or not librarians should be counted along in the teacher's seniority system.

[TheMadMonk]

153. And since when is a fucking employment review a "legal proceeding"?

Complete with judge, jury and executioners.

I see what's going on here. With a judge present to sign off on the dismissals, the teachers are being effectively robbed of the opportunity to use the legal system for themselves to argue against their dismissal later. And even if those teachers (individually or collectively) manage to raise a successful appeal and force their employer back into the courtroom, it will be a fucking brave judge who opens the floodgates to reversing a colleague 100?, 500?, 1000? times.


I'm good at getting myself abused for what I sometimes have to say here on DU about America and the behaviour of Americans. And reading back sometimes I wonder if I might get a little over the top.

And then something like this little gem comes along and I run out of vocabulary long before I'm done with expressing my opinion of you lot.

[msanthrope]

157. The librarians asked for the hearing. It's part of the union K. n/t

[Recursion]

167. Hearings are what happen when you sue

She sued the district, saying a classroom teacher should be laid off instead of her. This hearing is to determine whether that's what the contract says or not.

[rpannier]

155. Of course you'd think that

You're a deformer and that's fine.
But rather than say, "Hey, I don't give a damn about them misrepresenting what she said or did. I only care that they're following a precedure."

[chervilant]

196. And,

it's a classic case of missing the forest for the trees. But, then again, several of the bombastic critics just have to be right...

[Snoutport]

55. I fear my DU writings could be used against me...

some people at work found DU and talked about one of my posts in a meeting. They know it is me now and I am considering ditching DU (at least under this name) so my writings can't be used against me. :0(

[chrisa]

What kind of a kiss ass did that to you?

I bet he whined to your boss that it wasn't "professional," and was interrupting the "synergy," or something like that. :rofl:

There's nothing worse than an annoying little tattle-tale. Some adults act like they're in 3rd grade.

[bongbong]

121. Easy solution

Just start posting "I LOVE my job!" under your "known" alias. Do a post like this once a day or so. Create a second alias that you use to post your true feelings.

[TheMadMonk]

154. Better idea. Ditch your nation. Or take it back.

Putting your head in the sand only gives THEM somewhere to park their bike. (Or broomstick if the bike imagery eludes you.)

[msanthrope]

149. Not just overreacting, but accusing the trial court of dirty dealing.

Your OP indicates that you think the teachers were unduly "interrogated" and subjected to improper armed influence.

That means the trial judge allowed courtroom conditions that were somehow out of the norm, and unfair to the librarians.

This is not a winning trial strategy.

[provis99]

3. oh, if only she had copyrighted her blog.

She could have sued the shit out of those assclown lawyers for copyright infringement.

[LoZoccolo]

4. Everything you write is already copyrighted. n/t

[AlabamaLibrul]

12. If it's not registered, you can't get punitive damages nt

[sybylla]

96. Wrong. It doesn't have to be registered.

You just have to have solid proof that it's indeed yours. Registration helps, but you don't need it to win anything.

[AlabamaLibrul]

111. 17 USC 412 - Registration as prerequisite to certain remedies for infringement

In any action under this title, other than an action brought for a violation of the rights of the author under section 106A(a) <17 USC 106A(a)>, an action for infringement of the copyright of a work that has been preregistered under section 408(f) <17 USC 408(f)> before the commencement of the infringement and that has an effective date of registration not later than the earlier of 3 months after the first publication of the work or 1 month after the copyright owner has learned of the infringement, or an action instituted under section 411(b) <17 USC 411(b)>, no award of statutory damages or of attorney's fees, as provided by sections 504 and 505 <17 USC § §504 and 505>, shall be made for--

(1)
any infringement of copyright in an unpublished work commenced before the effective date of its registration; or
(2)
any infringement of copyright commenced after first publication of the work and before the effective date of its registration, unless such registration is made within three months after the first publication of the work.

http://www.bitlaw.com/source/17usc/412.html

While I hope to never have to face this one head-on, I am intimately familiar with it.

[msanthrope]

145. No. A cross of writings as evidence in a civil hearing doesn't violate copyright. n/t

[PufPuf23]

5. Like something out of Kafka, poor Librarian.

Don't let the asshats get you down, Madfloridian.

You are one of the best content posters at DU.

[madfloridian]

7. ....

I appreciate the nice words, but it does matter a lot that people make light of something so serious.

It really worries me.

:hi:

[bbgrunt]

6. Sadly, this is the way we now treat public servants.

[madfloridian]

9. I am afraid we do.

It's a terrible thing to do.

[Recursion]

36. By giving them recourse to a hearing when they contest layoff decisions?

Good, they deserve that. So do the rest of us.

[sudopod]

76. That they are even considering getting rid of libraries is goddamn criminal.

The fact that they're having a "trial" over it doesn't make it acceptable.

It's like being being given a chance to solve a riddle in lieu of being mugged.

[RaleighNCDUer]

91. The hearings are a sham

as is evidenced by them attacking the librarian for her fucking BLOG - not on any objective observation of her work.

If the PTB want you gone, they will get you gone, regardless.

[Recursion]

100. How so?

as is evidenced by them attacking the librarian for her fucking BLOG

To rebut her own testimony. Dick move, yes, but probably an effective one. (Did you read her blog post somebody posted below about the teachers' union making it too hard to fire bad teachers, incidentally?)

not on any objective observation of her work.

The question of fact here is the nature of her work and where that places her in the union contract.

If the PTB want you gone, they will get you gone, regardless.

For most of us, yes. This teacher has recourse to a hearing. Good for her.

[Bigmack]

8. FWIW, school district lawyers are like...

Internal Affairs with the cops. Everybody hates them. No experience in the classroom and their whole purpose in life is to cover the asses of Admin.

I remember one particular faculty meeting when the district lawyer was explaining to us how EVERYTHING that happens to kids at school was our responsibility... our fault if anything happened. To High School kids... some of whom were 18.

She did it in a supercilious, condescending way that was insulting.

We were an old staff...lots over 20 years and some over 30, and we literally hooted her down. She was pissed.

She had managed to turn tired, old teachers ready for a quiet meeting during which they would knit or grade papers into a lynch mob.

Assholes...

[sulphurdunn]

75. I went to a seminar once

to listen to a special education lawyer tell us how to make decisions regarding least restrictive environments for our students. I can be a wee bit slow on the uptake sometimes, so at first I couldn't fathom why a lawyer for the school system would suggest taking actions virtually guaranteed to land us in legal proceedings and to cost the system lots of money. Then I remembered she was a lawyer. It was an enlightening experience. Her advice has become the de facto gold standard for what not to do, and we haven't been in court since.

[MedicalAdmin]

130. To contrast that I used to work with one of the union lawyers.

One of the sharpest guys I ever met. And his advice regarding how to handle kids was always nuanced and usefull. The district clown I had the displeasure to meet once - not so much.


There are some people I wouldn't pee on even if they were on fire.

[Demoiselle]

125. I met a school district lawyer a long time ago.

Years ago, here in this pretty corner of Philadelphia, a group of volunteers, raised funds and worked to build a playground (with their own volunteer hands) on our neighborhood public elementary school property. (What was there already was endless barren macadam paving and a few basketball backboards. ) The new playground was meant for the students at the school during school hours and children of the neighborhood as well at other times.

The plans for the playground included corkscrew slides, climbing frames, "playhouse" and deck structures, swings, etc., all cleverly designed and quite safe, with padded ground cover and so forth. The community wanted it ...everybody, including parents of private school kids.

The ONLY objection came from a school district lawyer who sat in on our meetings a few times, tried to spike the whole idea, and actually bragged that she'd already shut down many extant public school playgrounds ...to avoid lawsuits.

Fortunately , the Superintendent of Schools was all for it, and definitively overruled her.

The kids in our neighborhood are happily playing there today. But I've never forgotten that lawyer.

[proud2BlibKansan]

10. K & R

[suffragette]

11. Truly appalling

Disgusting and scary to see how she and her colleagues are being treated.

Thank you for your post, madfloridian.

[Recursion]

30. The layoffs are appalling. Freaking out about due process is simply puzzling.

The teacher-librarians asked for a hearing to argue they should be protected like classroom teachers, and the hearing was granted. This is a good thing.

[RaleighNCDUer]

93. Kangaroo courts are not 'due process'. nt

[Recursion]

99. What about this seems like a kangaroo court?

It's a hearing (initiated by the librarian) to determine a contested point in her contract. The result is not pre-determined. How many people voluntarily sue to get into a kangaroo court?

[suffragette]

144. It seems to me the purpose of introducing evidence from her blog is vindictiveness

The information seems to have been introduced because she criticized the way the hearings are being conducted.

There should be a fair evaluative process for reaching such vital decisions as who should be in the classroom or not.

Digging through someone's blog posts (public domain or not) and using that info to attack someone does not even approach any type of appropriate evaluation of a person's credentials, work record or skills and abilities.

Supposedly that is the purpose of the hearings, but it is not served by this type of personal investigation and attack.

[msanthrope]

146. Not vindictiveness, just good trial prep. Her blog was introduced to impeach direct testimony.nt

[suffragette]

150. I still view it as inappropriate

There is nothing about using postings from a blog that approaches any kind of fair evaluative process of a person's credentials and work.

If this were truly what these hearings were about, they would focus on that, not on this kind of personal gotcha crap.

[msanthrope]

152. I think you are missing the point of the impeachment--the credibility of the witnesses' testimony

regarding her work is at issue.

If I ask you a question, and you answer 'y,' but I can show that on your blog, you answered 'x,' then I've impeached your credibility as a witness.

So when you tell the judge, 'my work is 'z,' I can show that you don't tell the truth.

I wouldn't be able to impeach without your answer 'y.' Nor would I be able to introduce the blog (probably) if it hadn't been about your job. (she blogged about her job.)


So yeah, it goes directly to witness credibility, which is at issue.

[stevenleser]

161. The whole impeachment of a witness stuff is so overdone in legal proceedings today...

It's really silly. If you delve enough into a persons life and everything they have ever said or written, you can find contradictions. So, everyone is a non-credible witness by that standard and we should just do away with witnesses altogether.

This abuse of attempting to impeach credibility is one of the key problems of our legal system.

[Recursion]

190. Politics, too

"You once held a view contrary to the one you currently hold! Off with your head!"

I'm amazed her lawyer let the blog evidence in in the first place, though I'd imagine this hearing has less stringent rules of evidence than even a normal civil hearing.

[suffragette]

164. I still disagree that this is appropriate in any way, shape or form

as any kind of process to determine what they are professing they wish to determine.

And I don't agree with the current direction that employers have the right to examine, surveil, monitor and question every thought or move of their employees.

[Recursion]

166. She sued them

That makes a huge difference. She sued them over their interpretation of whether she counts as a teacher per union rules. Note that the teachers' union isn't supporting her.

[stevenleser]

181. I sympathise but Recursion is right here. She is the one who brought suit...

and the Unions actually fought for this mechanism as a way to try to prevent unfair terminations. That makes it harder to assert this is somehow unfair to the employee. It's certainly better than NO recourse, but like all legal proceedings these days, it has gotten away from establishing the facts and contains way too much maneuvering that lawyers admire but no one else does.

[chervilant]

195. hmm...

I find it interesting that so many of the critics who cannot find it in themselves to empathize with these librarians keep insisting that the librarians 'asked for these hearings' or 'brought suit' against LAUSD. Have you not perused the comments from those librarians who are brave enough to go public about this?!

The unions fought to establish this protocol, and it's the expected next step whenever the district has a RIF. Teachers MUST file to have a hearing, but such a step would NOT be necessary if the district hadn't issued over 5,000 pink slips!

Given that the district wants to avoid having to keep these librarians on staff, they've pushed through a 'recency rule' (upheld by the administrative judge) that asserts that "a teacher-librarian who has not taught in a classroom for five years is no longer, by definition, a qualified teacher, no matter how many years of service and training she or he has"! WTF?!? So, by definition, these librarians must PROVE that they are fully capable of teaching!

When was the last time a lawyer had to retake the bar? When was the last time a judge had to prove s/he is worthy? When was the last time a principal had to defend her or his qualifications?!

This is a vile, demeaning situation. Obama's continued assault on public education is indefensible.

[stevenleser]

207. You had me until you somehow blamed Obama for this.

I completely feel that this should not be happening and empathise 100% with the teachers. I was raised by two public school teachers.

How this is Obama's fault, however, escapes me.

[chervilant]

211. Well,

let's start with his appointment of Arne Duncan. That's the first 'fault' I lay at his door. Consider that Obama is complicit in RTTT, which has been as bad or worse than NCLB. Review Mr. Obama's commitment to teachers and unions early in his campaign--does it match what he's currently doing to public education?

I would rather hold Mr. Obama in high regard, and not just because he's a Democrat. However, here is what I've said recently in another post:

For those who felt Obama would make manifest the hope and change he promised during his campaign, his lackluster and often antithetical performance is grounds for concern, if not criticism.

Obama's assault on our system of public education is reason enough for me to question his intent and his integrity. That is not only my RIGHT, it is my RESPONSIBILITY as a citizen of this nation.

And, as a teacher, I can guarantee you that I possess the cognitive and deductive reasoning skills to ascertain when I'm being offered a plate full of red herrings.

In short, the radical income inequity threatening our great democracy can continue unabated if the Corporate Megalomaniacs destroy public education, thus insuring that critical thinking skills are a rare privilege reserved primarily for the fruit of their loins. And, Mr. Obama appears to be going along for this ride.

[msanthrope]

185. As to your first point,

if you were a pLaintiff in a case, and you found a Facebook posting by the defendant that contradicted their claims, or otherwise indicated untrustworthiness, would you not have your attorney use it?

As to the second, a public blog owner has no reasonable expectation of privacy regarding their blogposts.

[Name removed]

158. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[suffragette]

139. delete - posted in wrong place

[Hannah Bell]

13. yes, i am very uneasy.

[sabrina 1]

14. Outrageous! Like something out of a nightmare.

And no, you are not over-reacting. I don't think there could be an over-reaction to something like this.

The most egregious thing about this, is that those in whom trust was placed to take care of this country's economy, were corrupt, criminals who gambled away the people's money and now are attempting to make them pay their gambling debts, and despite the Senate Committees findings and their recommendations to refer their findings to the DOJ, not a single one of those corrupt Wall St. Bankers has had to answer for what THEY did.

This is heart-breaking.

[Recursion]

33. Seriously?

A laid off teacher having recourse to a hearing about the status of her union protection is a nightmare for you?

The layoffs are awful. They shouldn't be happening. But giving the laid off teachers due process to contest their status is a good thing.

[sabrina 1]

110. Yes, seriously. Treating Librarians like criminals is pretty

disturbing to most people. Snooping into their private lives was something we on the left USED to find abhorrent. What happened? Was Bush right after all?

[Recursion]

115. She's the one who sued

It's not like they dragged her into a courtroom. Criminals don't initiate the hearing. She's suing the LAUSD over an interpretation of her contract and they're cross-examining her. The underlying attempt to close school libraries is an outrage, but the fact that the teacher-librarian has recourse with the courts simply isn't.

Also, it's worth noting the union isn't backing her in her suit.

[TorchTheWitch]

15. It's a hearing in which the laid off teachers are arguing

that they shouldn't be laid off. It's a legal proceeding. Why wouldn't anything any of the teachers put out into the public domain be used as evidence against them when it comes to determining whether or not they should be allowed to keep their jobs?

I'm also not getting what is so upsetting about the fact that this is a legal proceeding with lawyers and a judge and a court reporter, etc. all held in a court of law. Would you really prefer that this happened in some backroom somewhere WITHOUT all the trappings of our legal system??? No lawyers? No judge? No official record? All done in secret out of the public eye???

What's so disgraceful about interrogating witnesses under oath in a legal proceeding which THEY brought to court for the express purpose of discovering if each of them are indeed so experienced, trained and qualified that not only should the positions they've been laid off from be re-instated but that they personally should hold those positions? I can't even think of anyone in my life that has ever been laid off from a job that had anything close to this kind of recourse for keeping it.

Yes, what is happening to our public education system is terrible and THAT is what the disgrace is. That state governments are such a barking mess that they cut out of the budget those things most people believe are what is most important to keep like education, police and fire protection and sanitation services, etc. Your outrage is really misplaced.

These people are in the LUCKY position that when laid off they can have the recourse to actually argue in a court of law that not only are their respective positions so necessary that the positions should be reinstated but that they PERSONALLY should be the people reinstated to those positions. The rest of us in this country just get laid off without explanation, or any recourse and are lucky if we can clear out our personal items when we get kicked to the curb.

They're damn lucky they can even HAVE any recourse to keep their jobs, damn lucky that's it's an actual legal proceeding, brought the legal proceeding themselves and now they're unhappy that it's being conducted like all legal proceedings are and not in some back room by some lone douche with a slashing pen not interested in giving them so much as the time of day and pissed off at them for wasting their precious time? When the rest of us don't even get to see or speak to that lone douche with the slashing pen to ask to keep our jobs?

[eilen]

18. I don't understand your arguement

You are saying these teachers and librarians brought this on themselves?

I hope your worth is similarly examined and found wanting. Perhaps they can dredge up your personal DU posts. Maybe you could develop some empathy.

[Recursion]

28. Yes, they asked for the hearing after they got laid off

It's a hard-won protection they have.

[leveymg]

19. So, public employees should lose their civil service and union protections?

Equality of misery? Is that what you want? If you don't, you should make that much, much clearer, and fight like hell to unionize your job, if you still have one.

If what is being done to this librarian (and others laid off, like her) doesn't disgust you, you shouldn't consider yourself a progressive or a Democrat.

[Recursion]

27. So you would rather they have no legal recourse when they're laid off?

WTF?

[TorchTheWitch]

60. Of course not, and I said no such thing

I said they were LUCKY to have such recourse, they took that recourse and now the OP is complaining that it's working just the way it's supposed to.

The OP is making a non-existent issue over how they are being treated in a legal proceeding THEY brought when it is working as it is supposed to work and what THEY asked for and very uncommonly had the right and ability to get.

NEWS FLASH: The vast majority of people have no recourse whatsoever when laid off, and those LUCKY few that do need to quit their whining when it's working out exactly as it is SUPPOSED to work out in the legal system they are PRIVILEGED to enjoy in such a situation.

[madfloridian]

62. So the librarian is "whining"?

And I am whining.

"As for pension and health-care envy, it is a sad thing when working Americans complain that someone else has benefits, instead of agreeing that everyone should have coverage for their health and old age. It reminds me of an old Soviet joke where a peasant says, "My neighbor has a cow and I have none, I want his cow to die." We should not join in this race to the bottom."

-Diane Ravitch

[Recursion]

63. I also wasn't responding to your post...

[chervilant]

159. hmph!

LUCK had nothing to do with this!! Unions fought hard for the protections afforded to teachers and other educators. Yes, such hearings are protocol when RIFs occur, but NOT because these librarians are "lucky" or even because they WANT these hearings!

In fact, I ASSURE you that the teachers who are brave enough to speak out about these 'hearings' would much rather RETAIN their jobs than have to justify why they should be given the opportunity to return to a classroom to teach in lieu of joining the swelling ranks of the unemployed.

WHY are SO MANY people SO insensitive about what's happening to public education during a DEMOCRATIC PRESIDENT'S ADMINISTRATION?!?!? We can find all kinds of money to keep troops in Iraq and Afghanistan! We can keep providing oil companies (the MOST PROFITABLE CORPORATIONS ON THE PLANET!) with subsidies. We can extend tax cuts for the uber wealthy. But, we CAN'T find adequate funding for public education?!?

(Also, seems to me you're projecting when you accuse these teachers of whinging. Just sayin'...)

[Name removed]

23. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[TorchTheWitch]

68. No way, no how

Teachers are one of the most necessary things that society has. Why in the world would I resent teachers, and why in the world would you glean anything at all like that from what I said?

I'll say it again since you seemed to have missed it the first time around: These teachers are LUCKY as hell to have ANY recourse to be reinstated after being laid off because the vast majority of workers get nothing but a pink slip and not even an explanation with absolutely no recourse whatsoever. Actually having LEGAL recourse where the matter is decided in a court of law with lawyers on their behalf and a judge deciding the matter is so damn lucky I've never even heard of such a thing before. These teachers took advantage of this PRIVILEGED legal recourse they have upon their own initiative and there is no room to complain by them or anyone else that it is working out exactly as it is supposed to and in the exact same way that all such legal proceedings do.

Again, your outrage is entirely misplaced. Of COURSE the teacher in question will have her blog posts that are relevant to her witness examination brought into the proceedings JUST as they would be in any other proceeding when such information put into the public domain that is directly related to their case would be. The outrage is not for a privilege that these teachers are lucky enough to enjoy in being able to have legal recourse to keep their jobs and that it's being conducted as it should be but that states are slashing the most important and necessary jobs such as teachers to balance their budgets in the first place.

[sulphurdunn]

85. The only problem I have with these proceedings

is the idea that anything I have ever created that is in the public domain can be used either for or against me in a legal proceeding. Were these trails rather then hearings such evidence would likely not be admissible. For instance, should the publication of an article in support of drug legalization twenty years ago be used to claim I am unfit to teach math today? I have a real problem with that.

[kenfrequed]

113. You keep repeating yourself

You keep explaining how lucky they are, as though it was some kind of privelage that they either haven't earned or that they should feel wonderfull at having their internet information drug before them for daring to attempt to pressure the schools to live up to their contractual obligations.

[madfloridian]

126. Well, no need to fret. They got those "rights" because of unions.

And both parties are union-busting rapidly, especially the unions of public employees.

I learn quickly, and I will back off from you.

Posting about teachers' rights is not always healthy here, and I think I must start being careful.

I must say they are being treated as hostile witnesses instead of the educated people they are.

It is heartbreaking to see their PRIVILEGED Legal recourse used so abominably.

Soon very soon teachers will have no more rights than anyone else. Then people should be content.

Education is no longer valued in this country.

[chervilant]

160. hmph!

That's EXACTLY what I 'gleaned' from your posts! Maybe if you reread what you posted...

[Name removed]

24. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Recursion]

26. No, it's not hard at all to defend due process

I still don't get what you want? Would you rather they have no recourse to getting laid off?

[rucky]

67. a layoff - in the true sense of the word

should have nothing to do with performance. It's up to the district to defend the policy they used to determine who gets laid off - whether it's seniority, or certain grades/programs/departments. But instead they chose to make it personal, when they didn't need to.

[Recursion]

69. A layoff should have nothing to do with performance?

Why not? That seems like a bad idea on its face. And if anyone's curious about the source of the "unions protect bad workers" line, you probably need look no farther than that principle.

[rucky]

88. Layoff is not a euphamism for getting fired.

At least it shouldn't be. If you're the victim of a layoff, it shouldn't count against you when you're hunting for a job.

If you get fired, then your past performance is fair game to a potential employer.

In one case, you're presumed innocent. In the latter, you're presumed guilty. It's a very important distinction that needs to be made.

Using the terms interchangably is a bad idea - it could screw someone for life over nothing that they did on their own.

[Recursion]

94. But look at it from the organization's point of view

This is more applicable to for-profit companies than schools, but still. I get the point that layoffs are the organization's fault, not the worker's, but not having performance be at least one criterion (possibly of several) for layoff decisions still seems like a bad idea: if the organization is struggling it's important to keep the best people. Otherwise it will still be in trouble and even more people's jobs will be at risk.

Yes, I know, "best" is hard to judge objectively, and the metrics districts are using range from asinine to idiotic. But if teachers can't come up with a workable evaluation system themselves (I keep coming back to the fact that when I worked at DC public schools, 95% of the teachers were rated "exceptional" by the rating system then in effect), it's going to be hard to replace the bad systems the districts are using.

[kenfrequed]

114. Absolutely not

If an employee is bad enough to be let go, after proper disciplining procedure, on the basis of merit, that would be acceptable. Using a budget shortfall and contraction of the workforce to let workers go while inventing ad hoc some kind of merit based retention is absurd and invites all manner of favoritism and abuse.

[Recursion]

116. How is it worse than a seniority based system?

Particularly if pay is tied to seniority, meaning more people end up having to be laid off since you can't lay off the people making more money.

[rpannier]

172. Almost every organization public or private is tied to seniority

Which pilots get the best routes - the senior pilots
Which pilots make the most money - the senior pilots
Which members of any business get first dibs on the best offices, the best locations, etc - the ones that have been there the longest
Who makes the most money at the banks - the senior staff in a position make more money than juniors doing the same job
When vacation schedules are made who gets first crack at the dates they want - the senior people
Who gets paid the most - the senior people

Your solution seems to be - Let's save money by getting rid of the senior people and keep the people who get paid less.
After all why should we worry about those people (people in the mid 40's to late 50's) when we can get rid of them at a later point.

[Recursion]

173. Pilots are unionized

Which members of any business get first dibs on the best offices, the best locations, etc - the ones that have been there the longest

No, it's the ones who make the business the most money.

Who makes the most money at the banks - the senior staff in a position make more money than juniors doing the same job

Usually the proprietary broker-traders make the most (other than the board/CEO people), and as is a theme in this post, the ones who make the most for the company make the most money.

When vacation schedules are made who gets first crack at the dates they want - the senior people

That sounds appalling; I've never worked somewhere that did that.

Who gets paid the most - the senior people

Only in poorly-managed non-agile old school businesses. Pay goes to people who make the business money. It's the .com way.

Actually a lot of the education reform arguments I see remind me slow vs. fast company arguments.

[kenfrequed]

178. This does not apply to education

segue Experience is an assett. The "waiting for superman" crap is bunk.

Honestly when someone says "fast versus slow" "lean" "agile" "sleek" or any of the assorted phrases that consultants use to try to impress people about 'what they can do for your business' I update my resume and check to see that my wallet is still there.

These buzzwords mean nothing and are typical corporate speak.

If we Really want to improve our schools why don't we look at those countries with schools that are beating the hell out of us rather than engaging in free market experimentation?

What do most of these schools have in common? Smaller class sizes, better compensated teachers, and greater respect given to teachers than to CEOs and administrators.

But back to the absurd segue, if there is just cause for termination there is just cause for termination. Any shenanigans using contraction otherwise open the door, once more, to favoritism and bias.

[Recursion]

182. Experience can be an asset or a trap.

It all depends on the person and the environment. Have you really never known teachers who have ossified into their classrooms and become caricatures of themselves? Authority corrupts, particularly over long periods of time.

Honestly when someone says "fast versus slow" "lean" "agile" "sleek" or any of the assorted phrases that consultants use to try to impress people about 'what they can do for your business' I update my resume and check to see that my wallet is still there.

Well, "agile" at least is a specific well-defined methodology of software development, and it works very well if your corporate culture can keep up with it. But to the extent that the "reformers" are trying to be agile, they're screwing up the first rule by sprinting out of the gate using the first quantitative metric and model they find, rather than taking the time and doing the listening with stakeholders (this part is especially not being done) to get the metric and model right.

And myself, I've learned to check my wallet any time a management consultant shows up.

Though come to think of it agile methods seem very appropriate to education in some ways: incorporate feedback as early and often as possible, design a system to fail loud and early rather than quiet and late (not doing this is IMO the biggest design flaw in how we do education now), and take the effort to find out what is noise and what isn't.

If we Really want to improve our schools why don't we look at those countries with schools that are beating the hell out of us rather than engaging in free market experimentation?

But there's the quantification and metrics problem: how many countries are really "beating" us in education? And what would that mean? Do our educational systems and theirs have similar enough purposes to even compare them? And if so, that still may not tell us much.

At the risk of making your eyes roll, my favorite "agile" story is about the NUMMI car plant. GM closed it down and Toyota offered to re-open it in a partnership. Toyota instituted lean six sigma and the place took off: productivity was much higher than in GM's plants in Detroit, not because the workers worked harder, but because QA was built in to the production system in NUMMI while the GM workers had a culture of "keep the line moving no matter what" (cf social promotion).

Astounded, GM sent a team there with orders to (literally) take a Polaroid of every square foot in the plant and re-make one of the Detroit factories exactly in its image, no matter the cost. Both management and labor were perplexed when this factory didn't work nearly as well as NUMMI did.

Anyways, my point is that looking at different systems doesn't always tell you what's best for your system. But then sometimes it does.

if there is just cause for termination there is just cause for termination. Any shenanigans using contraction otherwise open the door, once more, to favoritism and bias.

OK, but have you demonstrated that favoritism and bias are worse metrics for the students than seniority? My GM analog is DC public schools, which I worked in as a resource instructor for a few years. 95% of teachers were rated "Excellent". This is ridiculous. The teacher-librarian that this story is about complains about this problem in her blog: seniority doesn't work but we haven't found anything better.

And like I said above this attitude really does sour people towards labor organization. Think about it: a manager has to let people go for budget reasons, but he's forbidden from keeping the people he thinks can do the best job? Performance cannot be a criterion for retention during layoffs? Something is seriously counter-intuitive about that.

[kenfrequed]

191. Err...

1) "Agile" IS used as corporatespeak all over the place, attempting to confine it to software development or trying to force it into that contextual framework misses the point entirely. It is a buzz word. It has little meaning in 90% of businesses save to be a soft word for cutting the workforce. "Agile" is contrasted with "bloated or slow"

At the risk of sounding like a jerk, though I do appreciate your anecdote, I find it clutters the discussion with red herrings and unrelated tangents.

2) By most reasonable and measured tests the more socialist countries ARE beating the crap out of us. They CAN quantitatively position us in terms of where we are regarding math and science and we really aren't doing well. This is not something that is open to debate or that we can try to spin or contort or any other bit of nonesense. They are beating us, so our solution seems to be privatization.

Privatization, by the way, has been a screaming, absurd, ridiculous, and maddening failure. We probably should have learned from doing it with utilities, prisons, defence contracting, and practically any other idiotic scheme imaginable.

[Recursion]

192. Partially agreed

Privatization, by the way, has been a screaming, absurd, ridiculous, and maddening failure. We probably should have learned from doing it with utilities, prisons, defence contracting, and practically any other idiotic scheme imaginable.

It's never worked here because it's a stupid idea to start "privatizing" in an economy where nearly everything is private to begin with (even Medicare is provisioned by private insurers). It's done wonders (and horrors, to be fair) in more statist economies.

By most reasonable and measured tests the more socialist countries ARE beating the crap out of us.

Name a more socialist country with our levels of income inequality, food insecurity, linguistic diversity, and home/neighborhood violence that is beating us in math and science while educating every single child.

But, my question stands, I think. Is an administrator's opinion of who he or she wants teaching demonstrably any worse for the students than deciding based on who's been there the longest?

That's the Catch-22 of the "don't blame the teachers" argument: if teachers can't be held responsible for students' progress, why does it matter who is teaching?

[kenfrequed]

193. How did the horse run into its own carriage?

Income inequality is a function of this kind of privatization ubber alles.


Privatization in theory is even worse than in practice. A grade schooler could point out that since any private entrerprise requires a maximization of profit each fiscal quarter and Wallstreet demands higher profit margins every fiscal quarter if possible. That means that either the price of services has to continually increase at a rate in excess to the rate of inflation OR you have to cut services while charging the same rate. That is the fiscal reality of private enterprise and it is why it should not be considered.

I would challenge anyone to find one place where privatization has actually been a good thing for the people that use that service. I could point to several countries where it was horribly destructive and stupid but finding one where it worked well? Much, much harder. This of course makes the triumph/horror equivalency suggestion you made a bit lacking on the triumph side.

Medicare was not originally run through private insurers, that was an add on function that has actually helped create the medicare donut, as well as having created industries that exist to drain medicare (see also private ensurers). Medicare was originally a fully public program and part D is the lovely centerpiece of what privatization has done to it.

Actually since arguing for mass firings would be the change, I would instead ask that you would have to provide evidence that those firings, as opposed to shrinking class sizes and hiring more teachers, would be an improvement.

[kenfrequed]

194. And...

As far as income disparity goes, is there really a lot of doubt as to whether increasing class sizes, closing schools, and privatizing the process of learning is somehow not going to result in less educated people who are more willing to accept income disparity?

[chervilant]

197. hmm...

You've engaged someone who happens to be on my ignored list, so I only get to see your comments. I am wondering, have you made any headway?

BTW, radical income inequity IS a critical factor. I would also have to observe that children will live up to our expectations, no matter how low we set them...

[kenfrequed]

210. Not well

His arguments are unprovable, he seems immune to logic, he jumps to ridiclous red herrings at every turn, and most of his examples are completely unrelatable anecdotes of questionable veracity and relevence.

He seems very persistent.

[chervilant]

212. Hence,

his relegation to my ignore list...

[Recursion]

199. Tea Partiers have higher average educational attainment than the poulation at large

Jefferson's dream of an educated citizenry making good decisions was just that. Germany should have taught us that.

[kenfrequed]

209. Bunk!

Prove it!

Just because they were primarily white and middle class does not mean that they were or are particularly educated. Given the appearance of their signs and their unintelligable outbursts I would suggest that they clearly are not.



Your analogy is bunk too.

Many of the educated were some of the victims of Nazi Germany

[Recursion]

216. Easy

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/04/15/us/politics/15poll.html

"Poll Finds Tea Party Backers Wealthier and More Educated"

Tea Party supporters are wealthier and more well-educated than the general public, and are no more or less afraid of falling into a lower socioeconomic class, according to the latest New York Times/CBS News poll.

The 18 percent of Americans who identify themselves as Tea Party supporters tend to be Republican, white, male, married and older than 45.

They hold more conservative views on a range of issues than Republicans generally. They are also more likely to describe themselves as “very conservative” and President Obama as “very liberal.”

And while most Republicans say they are “dissatisfied” with Washington, Tea Party supporters are more likely to classify themselves as “angry.” ...

[Recursion]

198. I thought about that as I wrote it

And, yes, the cart has run into the horse in US education; that criticism is spot-on. But lamenting that fact does not make it not so.

We do pretty well, all things considered. Our schools more or less work, and still produce a disproportionately high number of artists and creators.

But as I suggested above systems are different. What works in less traumatized societies may not work here.

[kenfrequed]

208. Right...

So the perfect solution in an increasingly traumatized system is privatization, increased competetion and reduction in servicces. Brilliant!

Are you certain you are on the right damned board?!

[Recursion]

215. When the hell have I suggested privatizing any part of education? (nt)

[sudopod]

77. Please sir, can I have some more? nt

[sabrina 1]

112. 'Interrogating witnesses'? How easily we have assumed

the language of authoritarianism. They are not criminals, they are public servants who have been targeted by the Privatizers who have finally achieved their decades long goal of privatizing Public Schools. You don't interrogate public servants, you ask them questions respectfully and you do not spy on them.

Every Democrat should be opposing what is happening to our Public Schools. And if Bush was president and this was happening, this board would be filled with outraged posts and not a single person would be condoning any part of it.

And for the record, that is why when Bush tried these tactics, he failed and ended up having to apologize for one remark made by his Sec. of Ed. about teachers' unions. Now, it's all okay, no matter how teachers are treated, some on the left will defend it.

[Recursion]

117. It's the language of a hearing. Which it is. She sued, there's a hearing.

Why don't you want her to have recourse to a hearing about this? Why should she just accept their decision that teacher-librarians don't have the protections classroom teachers do?

[adigal]

142. They have recourse because they have UNIONS!!!

I bet you are against unions, too. We should all have the right to speak for our jobs. That we don't is a disgrace. Sorry you chose a field with no unions, but we all make our decisions and then expect to be treated fairly. If your field just fires people, that was part of what you agreed to when you took your job.

[Recursion]

168. Yeah but it's the hearing that's being villainized here

And I think, frankly, the context of this hearing is being presented very dishonestly.

[Starry Messenger]

16. WTF?

[leveymg]

17. We have become the very thing we thought we were fighting - a system that purges

teachers for profit and the audacity of writing their inner thoughts about the system that employs them.

That's the Soviet Union, if you leave out the greedy financiers waiting to snap up the profits. In some ways this is worse because it pretends to be about choice.

I am ashamed and afraid of what my country is becoming.

[Recursion]

80. Actually the USSR funded education pretty well

And I don't think they did much of anything for "profit".

[Ilsa]

20. Quite simply, teachers and other public employees are becoming the boogeyman

For political and financial profit. It's horrible, and it's another step in the dumbing down of society.

[adigal]

143. Yes and firemen and cops are next

Anyone with a halfway decent salary and benefits. Instead of being angry at the corporations and the wealthy, who have destroyed the middle class, many Americans get mad because teachers still have benefits and hate them as they march to the polling place to vote Republican again.

It just stuns me.

[Reader Rabbit]

21. Jesus wept.

Where is the ACLU? Where are the parents? Where is the media? Why does no one care about this?

It makes me so angry, I don't even know what to do with it all.

[Recursion]

35. Why would the ACLU complain that the teachers are receiving a hearing for a case they brought?

The teacher-librarians got laid off. They requested a hearing to argue that they should receive the same protection classroom teachers get. It's apparently unclear in the union contract what their status is (or unclear enough that the district is trying to weasel out of it, at least), and the hearing is happening to resolve that. The district's lawyers are being assholes, but that's what lawyers do.

[Javaman]

22. This is why I blog anonymously...

and on my gardening blog, I keep it to gardening or gardening related topics.

in this day in age where our 1st and 4th amendment rights are basically being trashed by right wing (and some left wing) nuts, nothing is safe.

It's truly dis-heartening and disgusting what they are doing to this Librarian.

When are own opinions about anything can be used against us, we have lost much; including our 5th amendment rights.

[formercia]

82. It's working

The PTB is making us afraid to say what we think.


The Terror is upon us. Robspierre would be proud.

[stevenleser]

162. You are not anonymous. They can tie anything to you that you have ever put online...

The only thing that being anonymous does for you is to prevent other casual users from knowing who you are. Anyone who really wants to put effort into it can do so easily.

[Recursion]

25. Again, it was a hearing, not an "interrogation"

And there are usually police officers at hearings. The dishonesty in how this is being presented approaches Orwellianism.

[hifiguy]

31. I've worked in the courts

and there are not cops standing over people at hearings. There's a bailiff (a sheriff's deputy in my state) somewhere in the room to keep order if someone gets physically out of control, but that is it. And then only at CRIMINAL hearings. I never remember seeing a bailiff in any courtroom I worked in during a civil hearing.

[Recursion]

32. I've been to tons of public hearings with bailiffs

But more to the point, I don't see why giving laid off teachers due process is a bad thing suddenly.

[sudopod]

78. It's worse than that, it's just like HITLER nt

[Mimosa]

29. The serfdom state does not need educated people OR teachers.

MadFloridian, but for you many of us would not have heard about this.

I am so glad i am aging and won't be young in a world where knowledge is not valued.

[SoCalDem]

34. I can't believe that anyone is surprised at this

The internet is PUBLIC..

People who write stuff there or put pictures there should EXPECT that what they say there and the stuff they post there "might" be seen/read/used by "someone" who may not think like them, or who have a plan to ruin their lives.

A very wise teacher once told our class (after she had intercepted a particularly embarrassing note passed in class)..

"NEVER WRITE DOWN ANYTHING THAT YOU WOULD NOT LIKE TO SEE READ IN FRONT OF THE CLASS"...and then she went on to READ the note..

a whispered comment, overheard can be discredited or refuted, but if it's in writing (or these days, in a blog), it's yours to own forever.

[madfloridian]

I don't think she is surprised in that way. I don't think librarians...

should ever have had to expect to be grilled by lawyers in a make-shift courtroom when they had served their school district for years.

I am surprised you don't see the shame in that part of it. You are usually very perceptive and have a lot of insight.

[SoCalDem]

45. I feel sorry for her and think they are creeps for doing it, but

without her own words , they would have nothing..

She gave them the "ammo".. and it's been public knowledge for a long time that companies, adversaries routinely scour the web looking for stuff just like this..

It's an ugly thing, and should not be happening, but it probably will continue since the web is a fertile "hunting ground"..

[madfloridian]

47. So you see nothing wrong with school lawyers going after librarians aggressively?

I am surprised you are only addressing the blog part.

I feel like crying, I never expected this to be defended.

Of course her blog is fair game, if I were still teaching mine would be also.

But why is she being confronted so viciously in the first place?

[SoCalDem]

52. It's a dollars & cents issue at the core..

Musical chairs.. Executives plan to close libraries/sell them off/privatize them, and layoffs are a part of the overall plan.. Librarians who don't want to lose their jobs (easy to understand that one) fight back, and the "other side" chooses to participate.. We have an adversarial system when it comes to this sort of thing.

The librarians who lost their positions could have just accepted the job loss, and no one would have fought with them. They fight for their jobs, and the "system" fights back to show why they were more justified in letting Librarian X go, instead of Librarian D.

Just because you decide to fight, does not mean that the opposition will play fair... or that you will prevail. I am sorry that the librarians who are fighting back do not have better legal representation.

[madfloridian]

53. Ok. I never expected that from you.

I thought you would see that deeper issues involved.

[sabrina 1]

135. It's way more than a dollars & cents issue.

It is a moral issue, an issue that is going to determine what kind of country this will be. They are not just fighting for their jobs, they are fighting for the rights of the American people to an education. This country spends trillions on its brutal, destructive war machine and is shutting down libraries. It's disappointing to see people be so dismissive of this on the left.

I have to get used to the change in the way the left now deals with issues and stop expecting more. When they start burning books, I'm sure we will hear that it's Constitutional and they have a right to do it.

Education should be a priority. Teachers and librarians whose jobs have been sacrificed to pay the gambling debts of corrupt Wall St. gambliers, are not criminals and should never, ever be treated that way. They don't need armed cops and/or interrorgators. But as we plunge deeper into totalitarianism, it seems people are already desentitized to what would be shocking to people living in real democracies.

[Recursion]

169. She's saying a classroom teacher should be laid off instead of her

So basically, if you're rooting for her you're rooting for a classroom teacher to lose his or her job.

[sabrina 1]

204. No, she's not but I've seen a lot of that kind of 'reasoning'

on DU over the past two years or so ~

[AnneD]

133. Madfloridian....

I can answer THAT question for you. Remember when they first passed the Patriot Act. Remember when the FBI was digging around and went so far as to ask librarian for the check out list of some of her patrons. She stood her ground and refused to hand over her records with out a warrant. Despite all the fussing and fuming and proclaimed threats to national security, she stood her ground ( on the bill of rights). She was proved to be right in a court of law.

I know of no other group of well informed citizens that are as adamant about the bill of rights this side of a Constitutional Lawyer. They know some of these laws are just shy of book burning. The fact that they are getting rid of librarians to save a few bucks is immaterial. And she is right about the thoughts of her blog. Too bad we no longer live in a society where we can freely express our thoughts. I can honestly say I am glad I am leaving education and thankful I was able to give my daughter a great public education while it was still available.

[sabrina 1]

136. I remember that well. It was the Librarians who first stood up

and even devised secret ways to inform their patrons at various libraries that they were spied on, during the Bush Administration. They were heroes and once they stood up it gave others the courage to do so also. We owe them a lot.

[madfloridian]

137. Thanks. I never thought we would reach this place in America.

Librarians were brave enough to stand up as you said. Now few will stand with them as they are fired for being irrelevant.

[Vinnie From Indy]

104. I actually appreciate your posts, but...

your hyperbole really does get in the way of your message.

Cheers!

[madfloridian]

107. Hyperbole? Really? That's a shame.

You can call it hyperbole, or you call it caring for something our party is killing....public education.

If you wish to call it hyperbole, so be it.

I have learned so much in this thread.

[chervilant]

165. Cheers?!?

I've been following madfloridian's posts for quite some time now. She is one of a very few activists who's been assiduously documenting the corporatists' assault on teachers, unions, and public education as a whole. She links to her sources, and is clear when she's expressing her own point of view. So, your accusation of 'hyperbole' is both disingenuous and demeaning.

In fact, your entire post is a trite, backhanded compliment. Why comment at all?

[sufrommich]

37. I don't get it either. Blogs are the equivalent of publishing

your own personal newspaper. That fact that it's done using fairly new technology does not make it less so.

[madfloridian]

38. Do you defend the fact that librarians are grilled like this? Like criminals?

[Recursion]

39. They initiated the case

Why don't you want them to be able to contest their being laid off?

[sabrina 1]

201. They didn't initiate the case. Being laid off initiated the case.

Why are teachers and librarians being laid off?

And why are you supporting it?

[sufrommich]

46. Your OP is about using blogs in a court case.You're saying

it's shameful to use a blog in a court case, I'm saying blogs are public property and it does not surprise me at all that they're more and more frequently used by lawyers.

I don't know enough about this court case, although to be honest, I'm surprised a layoff even made it to court. I worked in support staff for a public school for 33 years and layoffs have been pretty common for a long time now.

[madfloridian]

49. No my op is about far more than that. I get the message though.

[Recursion]

50. It's a dispute about the nature of their contract

It's apparently not clear from the contract language whether librarian-teachers get the same FIFO protections as classroom teachers.

And no, I'm not clear why worker protections like that are being spun as a bad thing.

[barbtries]

40. this is just heartbreaking.

why do they want to destroy education in this country? oh, yeah. for money. for a steady supply of young people to throw at their wars for more money. so, so discouraging. recommend reading the blog post and commenting there too, she deserves the support of millions.

[Recursion]

42. Seriously? Due process is heartbreaking to you?

Why don't you want the teacher-librarians to be able to contest their being laid off? I seriously don't understand the outrage here.

[barbtries]

48. no, not the due process.

the way she's being treated. the reason the schools are going to hell in a handbasket. no, not due process, thank you.

[Recursion]

51. You mean the fact that she's being cross-examined?

Obviously pulling somebody's blog is kind of a jerk move, but it's what lawyers do. What pisses me off is that a worker protection (the ability to contest your layoff) is being spun somehow as a bad thing.

[barbtries]

61. i don't think it is.

i think it's the much larger picture. matter of interpretation.

[Recursion]

65. The problem here is that teachers and teacher-librarians are getting laid off

I'm pretty sure everybody on this board would agree with that.

[barbtries]

70. yes, right and left

and not for the right reasons. well they shouldn't be disappearing. it's just what the ptb are doing to our entire educational system.

[sabrina 1]

205. Of course you don't. Now that I've read several of your posts

in this thread, I can see why and how you never will. Thankfully though, there are many, many people who do understand it and each day many more waking up to what is going so terribly wrong in this country. The sad thing is, we thought we had turned things around after the 2008 elections, only to find how wrong we were, particularly in the field of education.

[Recursion]

217. What's a better way for the school district to have resolved this?

Without a hearing how is the school district supposed to resolve the conflicting interpretations of the contract?

[chervilant]

214. AND,

that steady supply of young people--the cannon fodder of our future--will be seduced into the military with the promise of higher education. Now that going to college is economically infeasible for all but the monied classes, this will be quite the luscious carrot for our soon-to-be-disenfranchised youth.

[madfloridian]

43. There's a sadness when things like become okay.

To those thinking it was about her blog only....please read and get the deeper meaning.

A large school district is setting up aggressive interrogations of librarian/teachers, using their personal blogs as weapons.

Someone above said Jesus wept.

I am weeping after reading the responses this morning.

It's as though we have lost respect for all things learning.

[madfloridian]

54. So the belief is that since librarians tried to defend their jobs...

..that they deserve what they are getting? That they should have expected to be grilled like criminals.

I am stunned.

[Recursion]

57. They deserve a hearing? Hell yes.

I'm appalled people are against their getting due process, frankly.

[sabrina 1]

206. I am appalled that you are so supportive of the layoff

of teachers and librarians.

[madfloridian]

213. I am appalled at so many of the comments in this thread.

It is alarming that we have reached this point in our country.

[CanSocDem]

56. As much as I deplore....

...the heavy-handed assault on public education, I worry more about the nature of the teaching profession, in the modern world.

Seems like every day a teacher is 'busted' for FaceBook or blog postings, for one thing or another and then resorts to claiming rights of 'free speech'. Apparently lost on them is the fundamental honest relationship required, between student and teacher, that precludes a need to promote other ideas or issues outside of the school environment or curriculum.

Being able to express your ideas to the world is a powerful tool. It should be used wisely like I'm doing....anonymously.....not to bitch about your job, but to do your job better.

.

[madfloridian]

59. Actually her blog is quite intelligent and well done.

But that doesn't matter at all now. Librarians need to be grilled if they want to defend their jobs, right?

[CanSocDem]

64. No they don't....

...(need to be grilled), but I'd like them to be able to step up and defend the values of public education and their own professional purpose, rather than putting their own righteous indignation at the forefront.

I'd also like evidence of her suitability for the job that goes beyond the fact that the people she works with, "...love her." Not saying she's unqualified; just unfocused.

.

[sufrommich]

66. No ,it's not well done. If you look at her archived blogs she

actually names students and comments on "lame assed teaching" (with a copy of the teachers lesson plan).

http://mizzmurphy.blogspot.com/search?updated-min=2008-01-01T00%3A00%3A00-08%3A00&updated-max=2009-01-01T00%3A00%3A00-08%3A00&max-results=28

[madfloridian]

71. You had to go back 3 years? If you want to be right that bad....you win.

Credit to you for such a determined search.

[sufrommich]

74. Her whole blog is like that. Right up to the moment it looks like

she may get the ax.

Here's her comment on unions from last year:

Of course, it’s not our fault that the budget is screwed up, or that the administrative offices waste money like nobody’s business, or that the entire country is in the middle of economic collapse. That is not our fault.
It IS our fault, however, that there are crappy, surly, outmoded educators scattered around the district, still on the payroll because the union makes it impossible to fire them.
I once knew of a teacher who knocked a kid down and kicked him in the ribs…..and just got transferred. I know teachers who read the paper in class, spend all their time online, tell kids that they are stupid, scream at the class to shut up, show R-rated movies on a weekly basis, and owe schools hundreds of dollars in lost and broken materials and equipment. They might get transferred to a new school, they might get transferred to Beaudry, but they probably will get to keep their jobs until they retire. I don’t like it, but it’s they way of unionized labor. We need the union to protect us. We do, I know we do, I pay my dues, I believe in the concept. The union, however, has done too good a job. We, as a union of educators, really need to revise the way we protect our own, because we are now (and by we, I really mean our students) are now going to suffer for it.
You see, the seniority system has been championed by the union. The seniority system is what will now allow the district to lay off motivated, wonderful educators and replace them with people who prefer an office setting to a classroom.
I don’t have a solution to the problem of seniority. I know that there has to be some objective way to evaluate teachers, and there is none, and so we rely on seniority because we don’t know what else to do. Don’t get me wrong, I’m pleased that I am protected because of my seniority, but I also believe that the quality of my work would protect me equally if that happened to be the measure used to determine who must stay and who must go. I work hard, I want to be here, I collaborate, I improve myself, I use technology, and I love the kids. I think I could stand on that. I think a lot of the teachers who got RIFfed could stand on their performances too. I know they could, because I watch them perform, and they (many of them) are excellent, natural-born teachers.
Think of your very best teacher, and then imagine you never got to have that teacher because s/he got RIFfed. Urg.
So, the union wants to strike. They want us to start by coming in an hour late every Friday. Huh? The union wants to punish the district, but the union’s policies helped create the district’s solution to this budget crisis. The union wants the district to cut waste in order to spare teachers. Me too! But I haven’t seen any kind of balance sheet that would tell me if that is even possible. Tally it up people! Can we save 8800 teachers by cutting paper waste, external consulting contracts, unnecessary testing materials, multiple academic coaches at each site, and software licenses that nobody uses anyway? Does that equal 8800 teachers’ salaries? And if it does, doesn’t that just mean that 8800 people working at the administrative offices stay in their cubicles and continue pushing carbon paper in triplicate? And is that really ok?

Man oh man, I could go on forever.

If you’ve read this far and you don’t hate me yet, that’s fantastic. If you do, just let me reiterate: I don’t know what the solution is. I think the district and the union need to do more, need to give a little, need to reevaluate their overall philosophies of what is best for our students. I think that bad teachers should find another job. I think that administrative offices should reduce waste by using new technologies. I think that good teachers should get to stay and teach whether they got their contracts last year or twenty years ago, because I think there are people who can teach and people who cannot teach, and I think it is an art, a science, an instinct, and an intense love of children that requires more work that most people ever put into anything. I am so sorry this is happening, and I hope that when we are on the other side of it, our schools are better, not worse.

[madfloridian]

90. I am backing off.

You seem to be determined she is at fault for all this. Bye...not worth it.

[progressoid]

58. How about firing the lawyers and keeping the librarians instead.

[distilledvinegar]

73. missing the point

The problem here is not that she was given "due process," that police were present at the questionings, nor that her blog was used as evidence. The problem is the WAY they used it to trump up charges against her.

"I wrote about times when I wasn't delivering direct instruction, and they claimed this evidence impeached my testimony that I 'constantly' teach." In other words, she used a completely acceptable teaching method - student collaboration - and this is being used to show she lacks competence? Since when is direct instruction the sole method by which students can learn? How much synthesis, analysis, or evaluation can a student do during direct instruction? Teachers also have roles as facilitators, not just lecturers. How much do we hear about http://www.21stcenturyschools.com/What_is_21st_Century_Education.htm">"21st century learning" and how important it is to provide children opportunities to explore and create knowledge? But no, suddenly that's all wrong - when it's convenient, anyway. Then suddenly we're "not teaching."

She wrote reflectively about her difficulties as a teacher, but this is wrong? "I wrote about feeling frustrated over the struggle to teach certain content." Obviously she is working to improve, not just whining about working conditions. But reflecting on her desire to improve her practice is not acceptable? What happened to "we are all life-long learners"? We are all life-long learners except teachers who are expected to know everything and do everything perfectly from day one, oh ok. Or is it okay to be a "life-long learner" as long as you hide it?

The REAL problem here is that any teacher who dared to be honest about their jobs would be open to these same attacks. And it doesn't just happen to teachers who blog or otherwise make their feelings public - every teacher has a slow day, an off day, a day they don't feel they taught very much. If not being a machine makes us all vulnerable, well, we're all in a lot of trouble. And that's exactly what is happening. You don't even have to blog - all it takes is a parent complaint to get the ball rolling straight downhill to a ruined career.

And remember that this teacher's right to "due process" is exactly what so many states are trying to take away so that districts don't have to bother with these kangaroo courts anymore. It would save a lot of money, after all.

[bethfully]

87. Thanks for this response

I love MadFloridian's posts on teachers and the state of education. When someone from the trenches and with the quality of understanding he/she has demonstrated in this arena is heartbroken about what's happening in a given situation, I think it's important for those who want to argue "due process" or "she shudda known blog posts are public" to consider that there is more nuance here than those positions allow.

The REAL problem here is that any teacher who dared to be honest about their jobs would be open to these same attacks. And it doesn't just happen to teachers who blog or otherwise make their feelings public - every teacher has a slow day, an off day, a day they don't feel they taught very much. If not being a machine makes us all vulnerable, well, we're all in a lot of trouble. And that's exactly what is happening. You don't even have to blog - all it takes is a parent complaint to get the ball rolling straight downhill to a ruined career.

This is exactly the point. There are systemic issues at work here and just b/c one thread (due process) is working correctly doesn't mean we don't critique the system in other ways or evaluate whether it's actually serving its intended purpose. IOW, is the way this is playing out (I don't care whether it's "reasonable", "legal", or "to be expected") helping create a climate that supports good teachers/good teaching and, subsequently, a good learning environment for our children? No. It's not contributing to that. Do we get rid of due process? No. Of course not. As distilledvinegar pointed out, that would make the powers that be very happy b/c it would be cheaper to not have to go through this circus for show. But we can ask better questions than "Is due process good or bad?" That question is not at issue here. What's at issue is why we are laying off teachers, how it gets justified, the movement (from the national level on down) to privatize education and break teacher's unions, and the overall effort to deprofessionalize and vilify our teachers (as well as other public professions--but teachers are really catching it right now, as a profession). This is not how a civilized society that expects to move forward in civilization behaves.

[madfloridian]

95. Thank you.

:hi:

[distilledvinegar]

108. Thank YOU!!

Thank you both, Bethfully and madfloridian! I've been teaching full-time for four years and subbed for several years before that. The changes I've seen in this short time turn my stomach. I remember when I was in the credential program and the older master teachers warned us "it's about to get much worse." This was at the time that NCLB had passed, but wasn't yet implemented. I don't know if they knew how right they were, but most of them are no longer teaching - they retired the moment they became eligible.

I'm also out, done, moving on - add me to the statistics for teachers who don't make it past five years (I feel confident saying that our numbers are increasing, though I haven't been able to find the statistics). I'm certainly not sorry I became a teacher, but I also have no regrets about leaving with my eyes open - and on my own terms. The one thing I am so looking forward to is being able to write honestly about education. I'm sick of worrying if I'll make a post somewhere that reveals too much or opens me up to charges of insubordination. I went into teaching as a second career, and while I've had some pretty crummy jobs in my day, this school district is the worst, most antagonistic employer I've ever had. That includes the insane speedfreak rage-o-holic newspaper editor, the employer who tried to frame me for theft, and the pro-tobacco law firm where I did a temp job processing documents (they lost, by the way).

I feel beyond horrible for this librarian and the others in her situation, I guess I only wonder what ever made her think her district was anything other than her enemy? Was it really like that, once upon a time?

Anyway, I've been following you madflo for quite a while, rarely posting, but always appreciating your efforts to help people understand the crisis unfolding. What you are doing is VERY important!

:yourock:

[madfloridian]

92. Thank you.

:hi:

[suffragette]

140. Welcome to DU!

:hi:

[msanthrope]

148. Um, no one 'trumped up' charges against her. She isn't charged with anything. n/t

[Recursion]

174. "Trump up" charges? SHE SUED

She sued because she wants a classroom teacher to lose his or her job instead of her.

[distilledvinegar]

176. ok

"charges" obviously wasn't the best choice of words. But again, the point is that they are using ridiculous standards to "prove" that she is not qualified as a classroom teacher. She has the proper credentials, she's considered by the state of CA to be "highly qualified," but this is being conveniently ignored. If she has greater experience and more qualifications than a classroom teacher, why should she not be considered for a classroom position? The only classroom teacher she would be able to displace is one with less experience and fewer qualifications. I hate the idea of any teacher being displaced, but I don't see any valid reason not to allow qualified teachers a chance to keep teaching. There is no guarantee that she'd be replacing anyone - there may simply not be a job for her, period. I just think she deserves to be considered the same as any other qualified teacher.

[Recursion]

177. That's what this hearing is to determine -- note that the union isn't supporting her

I just think she deserves to be considered the same as any other qualified teacher.

I know in DC we have curator-librarians (generally MLS's) and teacher-librarians (generally MEd's) and I certainly think the teacher-librarians should be given the same consideration as classroom teachers. But what I think doesn't really matter because the question is what the LAUSD teacher contract says, and that question seems to be at least somewhat open to interpretation. Which is why there is a hearing. LAUSD is zealously defending its position. There's nothing Kafkaesque about it.

the point is that they are using ridiculous standards to "prove" that she is not qualified as a classroom teacher.

I look at it differently. I think they are trying to prove she is not employed as a teacher, not that she is not qualified to teach.

[msanthrope]

186. They aren't proving she is or is not 'qualified' to be a teacher.

They are attempting to prove that she is not employed as one.

[distilledvinegar]

200. from reading the LAUSD contract

it seems clear that she is a teacher with a non-classroom assignment. What I can't find in the contract language is how non-classroom teachers are to be treated in the event of layoffs - nothing that I can understand, I should say.

It's not surprising; teachers' contracts are often vague, confusing, and leave much to interpretation. In my experience, neither the administrators, the employees, nor the union reps really understand them. I'm further confused because the contract refers to "Library Media Teachers" while MizzMurphy refers to herself as a "Teacher Librarian." That term does not appear in the contract. From what I can tell, she's paid on the same salary schedule as a classroom teacher, probably with a differential.

Both the district and the union are responsible for negotiating a 349-page mess of a contract. The teachers are responsible for voting to approve it (most do without any depth of understanding of what they are agreeing to). My sympathies lie entirely with the unfortunate educators who get caught in the middle of these travesties.

[sudopod]

79. Hell, they got trials didn't they?

They should be grateful! Stalin didn't give people trials...OH, WAIT, NVM

[Recursion]

81. The librarians sued

Generally when you sue, you get a trial, yes

[sudopod]

83. Is there a snowball's chance in hell that they'll win though? nt

[Recursion]

84. Possibly; for all the theatrics it's going to come down to the contract language

I'm also curious about what the teachers' union thinks about this; something tells me the classroom teachers won't be happy to share the pain with the librarians, which is what a victory would mean.

[sudopod]

86. That wouldn't be much of a victory. nt

[sufrommich]

98. That's the kicker. School districts decide on the amount of

funding to cut and then look for bodies or programs to cut. So if they decide not to cut librarians, someone else gets it.

[Recursion]

101. Union ambivalence would explain her crappy counsel

Since she seems to have gone to Lionel Hutz's Legal Services and Shoe Repair rather than using the caliber of lawyer unions generally send to contract disputes. I doubt the union would come out and actively work against her case but I can understand a desire to plug up one's ears and wait for this to go away.

[sufrommich]

102. Most likely. The union is stuck between a rock and a hard place

in this case.

[Shining Jack]

103. K&R n/t

[madfloridian]

105. Here are part of the lawyers' questions....trying to prove she could not teach.

http://www.eschoolnews.com/2011/05/23/something-sinister-is-happening/

"A case in point, according to the blog post, was this exchange between a lawyer for the district and a teacher librarian (TL), which seemed designed to catch the TL in a contradiction:

"LAUSD: How much of your school day would you say you spend teaching?

TL: I teach all day long.

LAUSD: You teach all day?

TL: Yes.

LAUSD: Do you ever catalog books?

TL: Yes.

LAUSD: Are you teaching while you are cataloging books?

TL: (pause) No.

LAUSD: Do you ever write purchase orders for library materials?

TL: Yes.

LAUSD: Are you teaching while writing these purchase orders?"

[distilledvinegar]

109. so likewise...

Do I, a classroom teacher, even spend 75% of my time "teaching"? Let's see, my teacher's work day is 7.5 hours long. I am due at school 20 minutes before the day begins, I have a prep period of 50 minutes, and I am contracted to stay until one hour 40 minutes past dismissal (I've already subtracted the half hour lunch period that I regularly work through from the work day). Added up, I'm with students for about 4.5 hours of each work day. That equals about 60% of my work day. That doesn't count the two to five additional hours I work each day or time on weekends.

And looking more closely, the time I spend going on field trips? "Not teaching." Filling out attendance? "Not teaching." My students are reading an assignment - "not teaching." Heck, administering an exam - "not teaching."

I don't know the LAUSD contract, but I suppose they have some clever way of defining what exactly "teaching" is, and that probably includes using the instructional day rather than the work day to calculate time spent teaching, but still - how petty. Why do they want to get rid of these librarians so badly that they won't even give them a chance to be placed in a classroom position? The only reason that makes any sense is that they are more expensive than a new teacher on the bottom rung of the pay scale. That and the new teacher won't have tenure and so won't have any right to due process when it's time to kick them to the curb.

[msanthrope]

124. That's called cross. Pretty effective, too. Note the lack of objection from the union.

[stevenleser]

163. From a lawyers point of view, this is an effective cross. Step back from that

in terms of what is being litigated which is trying to determine if this person didn't do their job or malingered? It's silly.

A teacher teaches for a certain percentage of their day. Every single moment they are not giving instruction to their students. There is admin time and other prep work. If a teacher even asserts such a thing during testimony, they are mentally counting out non-teaching duties that all teachers perform.

So what is happening here is not helpful in getting to the truth at all, it's what lawyers have interpreted as practice of the law, but it needs reform.

Its like if a lawyer accidentally gives an affirmative answer to whether they are billable all day long. Of course they are not. They spend a certain amount of time on non-billable work. If they answered in the affirmative, they were mentally cancelling out non-billable time because such a thing is expected in the industry.

[Recursion]

171. But remember, she's saying a classroom teacher should lose his or her job instead of her

That's what this lawsuit is about. She wants a classroom teacher to get laid off instead of her. I don't see why the district is out of line for trying to establish that ultimately she does less for the kids than a classroom teacher does.

[stevenleser]

180. That is a valid point, but not in terms of the angle of impeaching her credibility. They couldn't

put forth witnesses that make that point in a straightforward way without trying to make this lady out to be a liar?

[Recursion]

183. I'm guessing this is a heavy-handed dick move to discourage similar lawsuits

Or it could be the lawyer just thought her own writing would be a more effective rebuttal than expert testimony.

At any rate both the union and the district are at fault for not having thought about this beforehand -- particularly the district. If you're going to do a massive round of layoffs you better damn sure do your homework about who is and isn't legally eligible beforehand.

[stevenleser]

187. If you are right, it is not going to work. Anyone who has been laid off could tell them that...

I've been laid off twice. I have no problem with one of the instances since it was a speculative hire where I was hired to start a new line of business that had a high degree of risk and reward. We sold some but not enough to justify the division. Had it worked I would have been rewarded handsomely. I knew the potential risks/consequences going in.

The other layoff I was more or less a regular employee. Had I been able to sue to contest it as part of a labor contract, there is no question about what I would have done. No matter how ugly the potential cross examination I would have brought suit. The potential reward of getting my job back is too high to allow a nasty cross examination to dissuade me. I'll bet over 99% of folks laid off would agree with that.

[Recursion]

189. Especially since ultimately it doesn't matter

The contract language applies to her position, or it doesn't.

[msanthrope]

184. No. Nothing is more effective than damning a witness with their own words. n/t

[stevenleser]

188. That is not the point in this subthread at all. I discuss that aspect in another subthread. n/t

[blackspade]

106. My rage has no words.

All I can say is this comment from her blog is right on the money, which is why she is being crucified:

At the bottom of all of this is a political reality that I find so daunting, so dark, that to enter into a discussion of it strikes fear in my heart and nausea in my belly. I believe that this is part of a larger movement in our city (and state, and finally, nation) towards a for-profit education model that takes pressure off of elected officials and puts money in the pockets of clever financiers.

[mistertrickster]

118. Public employees and school teachers have become the new "communists."

It's another form of Red-baiting . . .

"Are you now or have you ever been a member of the teaching profession?"

[Recursion]

119. Hm... oddly enough that's basically the question before the court

She sued because she thinks librarians are covered under the classroom teachers' layoff protections; the district thinks otherwise. If she's found to be a teacher, she'll get protection through her seniority; if not, she won't.

[sufrommich]

127. I'm amazed at how many are simply not getting it. She is basically trying

to replace a teacher in the classroom by arguing that librarians should be considered the same as classroom teachers. The school system is defending classroom teachers. If she wins her case, she will replace a classroom teacher who will then be laid off. That's the whole case.

[CanSocDem]

129. OK...I get it.

Her point was that, as a "librarian", she was serving in a "teaching" capacity. I don't have a big problem with that philosophically.....technically speaking, a librarian makes knowledge available. Usually, a "teacher" DELIVERS that knowledge....(subtle differences)

That she is leaving the teaching profession to become a writer is probably good for everybody. Her problems with the school system shouldn't become the 'Teachers Problem'....she hasn't thought them through.

.

[Name removed]

122. Deleted message

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Jakes Progress]

120. Just wait. They will come for you too.

Those that defend this kind of crap will reap the country they have helped create. Of course they will blame the progressives for it then.

[msider]

123. Ponies

It's a good thing mu blog is only about ponies

[sudopod]

202. Ponies are cool. nt

[Corruption Winz]

128. Ridiculous..

I honestly don't have any other words that truly encapsulate what this is. Ridiculous.

[kickysnana]

132. This is a kangaroo court and our societies shame. n/t

[Hestia]

134. Crazy question (not sure how ya'll do it in other states) but why not have these teachers

petition for their own charter school? Surely if they allow christian charter schools using taxpayer money, they can do it too.

[saras]

138. The argument that teachers are supposed to LIKE this process is ludicrous

It's rather like saying that women should have LIKED the 1950's process of investigating rape charges. After all, rape was a crime, and if the woman pressed charges, the whole legal system worked just peachy keen, right?

[Starry Messenger]

147. +100,000

[Recursion]

170. I'd love to be able to contest a layoff decision

You wouldn't?

[Cleita]

141. LAUSD is one of the most dysfunctional

school districts in the country, I believe. My husband was an architect who worked for a firm that specialized in designing schools. They refused all work from that district because of the black hole of problems that would ensue because of the petty and undisciplined group of bureaucrats with too much power that ran things. This was twenty years ago. Apparently, nothing has changed.

[Blue_Tires]

175. ttt

[yurbud]

179. the mayor in LA is in the pocket of the rich--and he used to be a union organizer

The lure of money is just too great for too many people.

I've seen the same thing personally. My union local got our former president elected as a trustee, and now he is in the pocket of the administrators, with their upside down budget priorities of putting up massive new buildings while cutting teachers and classes.

[JDPriestly]

203. They don't burn books any more, they just put them out of sight

and out of mind.

Closing libraries equals closing minds.

[madfloridian]

218. I so agree with you.

You are right. They don't need to burn them. Just make them inaccessible.