Wow. Even Sherrod Brown's now changing his tune, and voting for the package.

[BzaDem]

(He said so on MSNBC this morning.)

I think some are running out of buses.

[redirish28]

1. Why?

[BzaDem]

2. He said he would not look an unemployed person in the eye and tell them no.

It sounds like he realizes what many realized a week or two ago: this was the best deal we were going to get.

[redirish28]

4. But it's okay to tell the unemployed person. You are only worth 13 months but the uber rich are

worth 24 months?

[Fumesucker]

5. He's going to have to look the 99ers in the eye and tell them no anyway..

:shrug:

[BzaDem]

7. He didn't have an option to create a new tier. He did have an option to extend the existing tiers.

[Fumesucker]

11. But he's still going to have to look them in the eye..

[BzaDem]

12. He'll look them in the eye and say "I did everything I can to help you, and will continue to fight."

I think he's even cosponsoring a bill to help him. Few think he's a dictator.

[Fumesucker]

14. "I will continue to fight for tax cuts for those who don't need it"..

As someone already pointed out on this thread, it's just a dog and pony show, kabuki if you will, the end result was preordained.

The Democrats only had ten years to prepare a strategy for this moment, it's quite unsurprising that they couldn't come up with anything better than capitulation while only getting half a loaf for the truly needy,.

[BzaDem]

17. Of course the end-result was pre-ordained.

This is more or less factually the best deal we could get. That's what some people have been trying to say from the beginning. Now, people formerly opposed to the deal are one by one figuring it out.

[Fumesucker]

22. It was the deal that the powers that be wanted..

Including Obama..

Why should he, or any of the other PTB give a damn, it's not like they're ever going to need unemployment.

[chimpymustgo]

6. No. He realized Obama had SCREWED him and his constituents and he had no CHOICE.

Please stop spreading the LIE that this was the "best deal we were going to get."

WE ARE NOT THAT STUPID!!!

[BzaDem]

10. I'll spread the truth whether or not you like it. n/t

[Poboy]

31. You dutifully spread the talking points/propaganda.

[BzaDem]

39. Yawn.

[Le Taz Hot]

3. This whole Gnashing of Teeth

and Wringing of Hands by some Democrats (chosen ahead of time by the Party Bosses) assailing the compromise was a dog-and-pony show from the beginning. They were always going to vote for it. I'm really hoping Democrats against tax breaks for the wealthy are taking notes.

[haikugal]

9. Exactly,

Those that were paying attention and not in denial knew this. They would make a lot of noise via theater and then vote for it. Motivation doesn't matter in the end. What will happen down the road does. The unemployed, old, sick etc. are going to suffer more. Kick the can down the road to failure.

We aren't part of the club.

[Imajika]

16. Yup, it was all theater...

..and so many on DU fell for it. The show was capped off by Bernie Sanders pretend filibuster that wasn't really a filibuster at all.

[polmaven]

32. And I really hope

Democrats against throwing the unemployed and their families into the streets are taking notes, as they apparently are.

[Le Taz Hot]

36. That charge has been countered

innumerable times but just in case: The two should never have been dependent on one another. The PTB made sure it was set up in such a way as to give the Democrats an "out." Personally, I see it as a confirmation of what so many have been saying all along: Democrats and Republicans are both working for the same Masters and that isn't us. We as a citizenry will take our proper place as Americans and revolt against tyranny or we won't. For those who have not yet become aware, this is a pivotal moment in history. Will we side with the elite or will we side with the populace?

[polmaven]

41. the FACT is

that the Republicans were blocking the extensions of UI and, when they take control of the House in January, and gain numbers in the Senate, there is no way an extension will be approved. That needs to be done now, and in December of 2011, will be the time for the president to use unspent stimulus money to extend it further.

[Kweli4Real]

65. This is ridiculous ...

Countering a fact, i.e., the currently covered unemployed will suffer if U/C is not extended (if only for 13 months, even) by arguing what should or should not have happenned!!!

What happenned to the thinkers on this site?

[lunatica]

8. The unemployed need help and that's the crux

It's the middle class people who have lost their livelihoods who need that help. We're the backbone of this country. It's a bad deal, but it helps the middle class for the immediate future. What it doesn't do is address the issue long term. That's a mistake they will come to regret.

May karma come crashing down on those who are profiting at the expense of others because they'll be responsible for the third world state of our country in a few years.

[Cirque du So-What]

13. Mr. Brown? Mr. Sherrod Brown?

Your bus awaits! Don't worry; you'll have plenty of company down there!



Some 'purists' would throw FDR himSELF under the bus at the slightest provocation.

[Pholus]

15. Well enjoy your win and please accept my sincerest hopes this works like you think it will.

I would like to be pleasantly surprised, but I figure I'll just bookmark this for the next back room deal that comes down the pike (in about a year).

[LWolf]

18. Neither of my Senators were there for the vote.

They stayed home for a state business summit. Merkely said he didn't support it and wouldn't have voted for it. Wyden didn't say either way.

Based on the article in my local paper yesterday, anyway.

[BzaDem]

19. Wyden said on Lawrence's show that he would have voted against it, because it didn't set the stage

for huge tax reform next year. Wyden and Judd Gregg have a tax proposal that just have 3 rates (15/25/35), but brings in much more revenue than today by getting rid of most tax exemptions.

[theaocp]

20. Al Franken voted for it, too

I'm laying down a marker right here, right now: the pukes will hold something/someone else hostage in two years and the Obama tax cuts will be further extended. Hear me now, quote me later. :grr:

[Larkspur]

21. Obama intentionally set this bill up as a Catch-22 for Progressives

It's hard to turn down UI benefits, even though nothing was offered to 99r's. Obama is betting that the unemployment numbers will go down because millions more next year will become 99r's and thus will be off the UI rolls and not counted in the unemployment numbers. Obama is just like Reagan in that regard. Play with the employment and unemployment numbers until you get what you want.

[myrna minx]

24. And the Reagan Democrats rejoice at this bill. n/t

[BzaDem]

25. Basically everything you said about Obama would be true if you took the opposite of what you said.

But you're beyond helping with the truth it seems. Have fun with your alternate reality.

[Fumesucker]

26. Ten years is how long the Democrats have had to plan their strategy for this moment.

Clearly it wasn't long enough to find something that didn't reward the rich and punish the poor.

[BzaDem]

28. What makes you think just because you have time to plan means you have a viable option?

I mean, Justice Scalia has had 25 years to plan on a strategy for overturning Roe v. Wade. Doesn't mean he can do it.

Pretty specious argument.

[Fumesucker]

30. So waiting until after the election with a lame duck Congress was the optimum stragegy?

:crazy:

[BzaDem]

37. Oh, there was a better strategy. But its failure had everything to do with Congress, not the WH.

If House liberals wanted to win on taxes, they needed to come to an agreement with blue dogs to pass a budget with reconciliation instructions for FY2011 allowing tax cuts to be extended by a simple majority vote. But no. Liberals wanted to stand strong and not pass a budget cutting their priorities, and blue dogs similarly wanted to stand strong and not pass a budget without cuts. (Even though the budget could always be waived if they had the votes to do it.)

So look what happens. No budget was passed. No reconciliation could be used, which made the outcome we are seeing now assured (back in April) with the timing of the outcome irrelevant.

Perhaps some would take that as a lesson that sometimes, standing "strong" and getting nothing is not necessary a good idea. But not in la-la land here.

[Fumesucker]

45. There is no policy that cannot be improved by capitulating to the Republicans..

It becomes more clear practically on a daily basis that is Obama's view.

[BzaDem]

48. See, what they thought "capitulation" back in April could have actually won the tax issue.

No tax cuts for the rich.

But nooo. They had to stake their hill to die on as a non-binding budget resolution.

Eventually, people will figure out when to stop overplaying their hand. The only question is how much time it will take.

[Fumesucker]

52. Somehow you find a way to blame progressives for every single thing that goes wrong..

Your non stop blame game of people who are essentially powerless in government is getting a long way past the sell by date.

[BzaDem]

53. They weren't powerless at all to pass a budget. Budgets require 50 votes, not 60. n/t

[chimpymustgo]

27. JUST like healthcare "reform". Obama is a MASTER at fucking over progressives and getting what TPTB

want. This is getting SO predictable.

[BzaDem]

29. Actually, he tends to piss off a tiny subset of progressives who claim they somehow represent them.

When in reality, Obama has the highest Democratic approval rating of any President in 50 years.

[chimpymustgo]

40. He TRULY does not represent me. And I'd love to hear what Franken, Bernie, and Sherrod have to say

about this liar in private.

[BzaDem]

42. Actually, in private (later it came out), Franken was very angry at Obama. Why?

For not pushing more aggressively to pass the Senate Healthcare bill verbatim through the House.

(Luckily Franken underestimated Obama and it ended up passing.)

[chimpymustgo]

47. You SAID it. Progressives underestimated what a corporatist TOOL Obama is.

It's got us all in a bind. Wanting - needing to support OUR GUY. Who just keeps on selling us out and giving everything to the RICH.

It's tough. Yet another shit sandwich stuffed down our throats by Obama.

[BzaDem]

49. Then apparently so is Franken, Sherrod Brown, Robert Reich, etc etc

At a certain point your diatribe becomes laughable.

[chimpymustgo]

68. Yours was so, from the get-go.

[SOS]

70. Counting only Democrats: 79% approval

Here are some total approval ratings over the past 50 years for Democratic Presidents:

Kennedy, March 1962: 83%
Johnson, February 1964: 79%
Carter, March 1977: 75%
Clinton, December 1998: 73%
Obama, September 2010: 44%

When counting the entire population, rather than just Democrats, the picture looks quite different.

[polmaven]

35. Well, right...

We should change the term "99er" to "26er"......Yeah! That'll help! -------Riiiight!

[lamp_shade]

23. K & R

:thumbsup:

[MadHound]

33. Yeah, and at one time doctors endorsed smoking,

Doesn't make it any more correct.

Sherrod Brown and other Senators were preemptively cut off at the knees by the administration with this deal. They could protest, but couldn't withstand the mounting pressure brought by the administration and their fellow Senators. The same scenario will probably be played out in the House.

But just because, with a metaphorical gun at their heads, these dissenting Congressfolks vote for this bill, it doesn't make the bill anymore valid or right. It just goes to show that the president is more adept at fighting members of his own party and his base than he is at fighting the 'Pugs. Ooo, what talent, what skill it takes to stab your own fellow Democrats, your base, the American people in the back.

[BzaDem]

60. I don't think there was a gun to Brown's head. Over 80 Senators voted for cloture.

If he were the deciding vote, I could see your point, but I don't think the White House cared one way or the other the way he voted.

[Bandit]

34. Well why not everyone knows what a great bill it is

It was a great bill when Bush* intorduced it in the first place and America went on to such an economic expansion as never before seen.....:sarcasm:

[mmonk]

38. No, we're running out of Democrats.

[BzaDem]

44. Ah, the "it's not me that's wrong! It's everyone ELSE who is wrong!"

Whatever floats your boat.

[mmonk]

46. I cannot support what I'm against.

That includes perpetuation of Republican ideology. That does not make me wrong or you right.

[BzaDem]

50. Well you are actually wrong on the fundamental factual premises here underlying the debate.

The actual debate is over the available options. In this debate Obama is picking the most progressive out of the viable options. That is the ideological question.

Your problem appears to be that you don't understand the reality we live in that decides what the choices are. But that isn't a question of ideology -- that is more or less a purely factual question. So there is a right and wrong answer (and you have the wrong answer). If you make up out of thin air a better option and call it an available option even though it isn't, you are factually incorrect.

[mmonk]

54. Who made you God with facts?

[BzaDem]

56. I never said I was "God with the facts." I just said I was right.

I mean, most people who claim we could have gotten a better deal don't even bother to list the 218 people who would have voted for it in next year's house and 60 Senators who would have voted for it. Even if this were a close call/up-in-the-air question, a person who argues based on blind faith and presents no evidence usually doesn't have a very good argument.

[mmonk]

62. And my point, I guess, is those of us who represent

the more traditional or New Deal Democrats have no political vehicle. With that being the case, millions of Americans have no real or effective representation either, just symbolic (like the Progressive Caucus which gets only 3 to 4 % of legislation through). We represent more than our numbers in the party. Taunting and reminding us we have no recourse and should accept our fate does not close the divide.

[BzaDem]

63. The solution to that is to get voters to elect more progressives, not to blame Democrats for the

actions/situations caused by Republicans.

[mmonk]

66. Easier said than done.

Many politicians run on a deceptive campaign. We also do not control the top despite being the ones that write the platforms that politians ignore. The handlers and advisors ultimately control the direction. The problem is we win very few concessions in final legislation through a controlled process that weeds out our proposals.

[mmonk]

55. I will give you this.

The people have limited options when their interests do not come first with enough elected officials in government. They will never be fully taken care of.

[BzaDem]

57. I would certainly agree with that wholeheartedly. n/t

[FormerDittoHead]

43. That Obama sure knows how to kick butt and twist arms! Too bad only Democrats.... n/t

[BzaDem]

51. Obama didn't even need his vote. It passed cloture with over 80 votes last night.

Brown saw the reality of the situation and acted accordingly. Some DUers should follow his example.

[SidDithers]

58. K&R...nt

Sid

[reformist2]

59. The hostage analogy does hold water.

Even though we all know Republicans would take whatever tax cut they could get if the Democrats were to hang tough on this, the truth is even a month of being cut off from unemployment could mean bankruptcy for thousands of households. I still think the Democrats should have fought this battle, but I can understand their desire not to see innocent bystanders hurt in the crossfire.

[Lucky 13]

61. Whatever.

I've stopped caring. Just like they have.

No one is listening and nobody cares.

[quinnox]

64. nice way to rub it in

You know many DUers are against this and yet you have to do a victory dance and pretend this is the best thing ever for Democrats.

Very bad form on your part.

[onenote]

67. and if the vote had gone the other way, do you think no one here would be celebrating

event though there are DUers who think that failure to pass legislation before the end of the year extending the tax cuts for those making under 250K and extending unemployment insurance would be a very bad thing, both for those who would have an even harder time making ends meet and for the Democrats generally, since the predictable result would be that Obama and Congressional Democrats would be viewed as the losers? (Yes, I know that doesn't sound logical, but if you've got an example of the media engaging in a logical,rational explanation of the legislative process over the past two years, I'd love to see it.)

[neverforget]

69. Instead of Democrats with a spine we get this:

I guess tax cuts create jobs....the last 10 years didn't create any, but the next 2! Watch out!