Chevy Volt arithmetic - why I won't be buying one

[Dreamer Tatum]

I drive an SUV (don't worry - Gaia was my co-signer) that is paid off, free and clear. It is worth aboput $10,000 in resale.
I get about 15mpg.

A Volt costs $40,000 (I will use round numbers). Let us assume the net asset cost of a Volt to me is $30,000. I will need
to find $30,000 in fuel cost savings on a net present value basis to justify buying a Volt. This assumes that I don't
finance the vehicle, ie, I have $30K in cash just laying around.

Let us suppose for exposition that the Volt gets 60mpg of actual gas purchased (it runs on gas and electricity). Gas is $4/gal,
and I drive 15,000 miles per year.

I use 1,000 gallons of gas per year at an expense of $4,000; with a Volt I would use 250 gallons and spend $1,000. That's an
annual gas expense savings of $3,000.

Assuming that the electricity to feed the car is free to me (a horrible assumption), and there is
no time value of money, it would take 10 years to recoup the expense of the vehicle relative to the one I currently own.
In that 10 years, the battery will likely need to be replaced at least once, the expense of which I will call a wash due
to likely upkeep expense for my current vehicle.

The more likely scenario is that I finance the vehicle, and electricity is nowhere near free, both of which imply that the
real time to recoup the expense is more like 12-15 years.

Not worth it.

[MineralMan]

1. I live in a major city. I have a 20 year old Volvo

that I drive less than 2000 miles per year, almost all of it in round trips that are less than 10 miles.

I will not even look for a new car until someone comes up with an inexpensive, small, plug-in electric with a 40 mile range. Why should I? It would make no sense, whatsoever.

[Motown_Johnny]

34. keep an eye on compressed air vehicles too (no battery worries)

[lumberjack_jeff]

54. I can't accept the safety implications.

A tank of compressed air with enough energy to propel a 2500# car 100 miles has enough energy to propel it's 250# occupant a significant distance in event of a collision. Like suborbital distances.

[Baby Bear]

100. The Devil is in the Details

A tank of gasoline has even more energy. A bank of batteries has about the same amount of energy.

You need to show how the energy in the compressed air tank is likely to be substantially transmitted to the occupant intact in order to conclude that it is more dangerous. You may be right in your assertion, but you have not made an argument yet.

Compressed air tanks for such vehicles include a rupture seam that in the event of an accident would split the tanks down one side dispersing the energy downward away from the occupants. A gasoline tank could rupture and spray explosive fuel everywhere. It is not obvious which is the most dangerous.

The devil we know is not necessarily more evil than the devil we don't.

[Motown_Johnny]

148. +1

[lumberjack_jeff]

176. A ruptured fuel tank is a potential explosion. A ruptured air tank *IS* an explosion. n/t

[Motown_Johnny]

187. no, it doesn't burst like a balloon.

it is just a rush of air out the split in the tank


and you won't have your head next to it, the floorboard is between you and it



I don't see any serious potential for injury with a ruptured air tank

[immoderate]

171. I think of the Air Car as a scam.

There is nothing that will go more than 5 miles on compressed air.

--imm

[Nay]

96. I live in a small city, own a 16-yr-old Lexus, drive 10 miles a day to work,

and there is no reason on earth for me to buy a new fuel-efficient car for the very reason you and the OP cite. It makes no sense. I will be dead before I would come out even. And never mind the annoyance of cheap plastic interiors, noisy passenger compartments, etc. found in new cars....

[Aerows]

137. You might be able to get by with an electric bicycle

I'm serious. Obviously, you can't use one for everything, but for trips of 3-4 miles or less, they are economical, and in addition, you get to look cool and say "I ride my bicycle for errands".

[daleanime]

2. Do you really believe.....

that gas prices will remain at $4.00's for 15 years?

[Dreamer Tatum]

4. The cheaper gas gets, the stronger my argument. nt

[Name removed]

9. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[proud2BlibKansan]

10. +1

[bluestate10]

104. I find the thinking to be typical of some posters. Demand that other

people pay more taxes, but look for every tax break imaginable. Demand the President Obama do something about american jobs when they won't pay $80 bucks for an american made shirt that will last four times longer than the $40 chinese made shirt. Wring hands about climate change, but don't connect the dots to their personal choices. Demand, demand. But sacrifice? Hell no!!

[Motown_Johnny]

18. and the higher it goes, the weaker your argument

[Dreamer Tatum]

20. Still a loser of an idea. If you have a car you own outright, it is almost impossible

to justify buying a new one. ANY new one.

[Motown_Johnny]

39. that depends on the maintenance costs of the older vehicle

and the possible loss of income/wages due to vehicle breakdowns

not to mention safety




But it isn't fair to compare the cost of a used vehicle with a new vehicle. I think we can both agree with that.

[Kermitt Gribble]

91. That should have been your original argument instead of slamming the Volt.

You could have made the same argument with any other car. The Volt is a good option for anyone who IS in the market to buy a new car.

Your argument is buying a new car vs keeping an old one - it has nothing to do with the efficiency of the Volt.

[customerserviceguy]

102. I've been going through the same math myself

I'd like to get something a bit more fuel efficient, but the extra costs for car payments and insurance mean that gasoline has to go WAY up in price before it is economically feasible. Of course, at some point, my car will need enough in repairs to change that calculation, but I'll see what things look like when that day comes.

[LanternWaste]

134. Almost as difficult as

Almost as difficult as helping the planet I imagine. However, I do realize we all of us rationalize our decisions to allow us to feel more comfortable living with them.

[bluestate10]

105. Plus the Volt will help reduce global warming. But I digress. nt

[hack89]

113. Not if "clean" coal is used to generate that electricity. nt

[Motown_Johnny]

143. actually, even if they use coal it is cleaner than burning gasoline

electric vehicles are just that efficient

there was a whole thread on this when the Volt was first released

[BulletproofLandshark]

53. You don't really think gas will get cheaper in the long term, do you?

That alone puts the lie to your whole theory.

[Dreamer Tatum]

57. Um, hello. Do the arithmetic.

I save even less per gallon if gas becomes cheaper, which makes a Volt even harder to justify. Jeez.

[BulletproofLandshark]

98. And I'm telling you that history says gas prices will only get higher, smart guy.

You won't be saving shit.

[Dreamer Tatum]

116. For me not to "save shit," gas would have to be around $12/gallon.

Is that where it's headed?

[BulletproofLandshark]

120. Maybe not in the short term, but I wouldn't bet against it. n/t

[Motown_Johnny]

144. that just isn't right either

the Volt claims to get 40 miles for ~$1.50. If we use $1.60 for 40 miles you get a nice even 4 cents per mile for fuel


If your Honda gets 15 miles per gallon and you pay even $3.60/gallon you are paying 24 cents per mile for fuel.

so every 5 miles costs you a buck compared to being in electric mode.


It gets over double the fuel mileage of your vehicle when using gasoline so you can do that math yourself.


You will be saving money on fuel no matter what the price of gasoline is.


Even if all energy costs go up you can still assume a 6 to 1 ratio for savings when in electric mode and a 2 to 1 ratio in gasoline mode.

[daleanime]

181. Sorry, it's the other way around...

by this winter gas will be past $4.00 again and moving up. We pasted peak production for oil and the price will soon reflect that.

[Diclotican]

78. daleanime

daleanime

The reality is, that petrol - or Gas if you want are not starting to go down in price anytime soon.. If you as american really belive, that gas wil go down in price, just becouse it is expensive this days, then you are in for a real shoocker.. When I started use a car - 16 year ago, it cost little more than Norwigian Kroner 6,50 pr Liter to fill a car.. Today the price, pr Liter is 14 kroner... You americans are living in a world, where you belive that oil, and their product called gas is inexpensive and sheap to use and to produce.. The reality is that oil is expensive, and its product, petrol - or gas, is expensive... And wil be more expensive as the usuable ammount of oil is finitiv, its just so mutch oil to be produced. And as other regional gigants is waking up, and want to be part of the modern world, the prize of petrol vil rise again and again and again..

And we wil all be used to far more expensive petrol prizes, maybe to the limit when other means of fuel is less expensive than gas..

Hopefully we can get ourself in-depended of petrol in the next 20-30 year time, so it can be afforable to have a personal transport veichelce again..

Diclotican

[daleanime]

180. Sorry if I didn't state my position very accurately...

My point was that gas prices won't stay 'down' at $4.00's for long, we have moved past peak oil production and long term prices will do nothing but go up.

[Diclotican]

182. daleanime

daleanime

True. And it is sad that, for the moment we dosen't have some real posibility to get off the oil sickness.. Even tho we do have the options on hybrid, its still little off center, and the battery who have to be replaced every 5-6 year is still far to expensive to many.. A petrol driven car is just less expensive to drive than a hybrid car, when you take into the account replacing a battery is more or less the same as half what a car is wort after 5-6 year..

Oh wel, humanity wil manage do discover fuel who are better, or at least at the same par as oil are eventuelly.. We humans have allways been able to addapt, and to invent stuffs that we dosen't know about just a few decades ago. And use it to make life better.. And one day, I guess most of our ancestors wil look back to our time, and wonder why we was not able to se the new propulation tools.. And maybe even think that we was little short in the head:evilgrin: Like we are doing, when it came to our forefathers of past..

Diclotican

[still_one]

3. Absolutely correct. You can buy several cars today around 15-16K, and get 35 MPG

plus still have cash in your pocket

Of course the argument is you are doing it for the environment, but the reality is that most people just cannot afford it

In addition, the electricity generated through your home may not be particularly clean either, though you would definitely have less pollution on the road

[KittyWampus]

7. Nevermind

[Motown_Johnny]

42. People buy Corvettes too

they could buy something for $16,000 but they want something nicer

For some people lowering their carbon footprint has a value. We can debate what that value might be but I think we can both agree that it isn't worthless.

The Model A Ford wasn't very affordable either, but we can see what that led to.

[rsmith6621]

5. More Reason We Need To Speed Up Green Tech Production....

....to lower the cost of these green cars...I wont be buying one soon myself.

[KittyWampus]

6. Not worth it- until climate volatility shreds your house by tornado, flood, hurricane and/or leaves

you and the rest of us competing for what's left of the petroleum and diminished crop yields.

[Dreamer Tatum]

22. Yeah, I saw that in Chevy's marketing material.

"Buy this car OR YOU WILL DIE."

:eyes:

[onenote]

8. How old is your current vehicle?

Your assumptions about expense need to consider whether your current vehicle's maintenance costs are likely to sharply rise as the car ages or whether, indeed, you'd need to replace it.

[Dreamer Tatum]

23. It's a Honda past 100,000 miles. The cost is minimal.

Especially with the new timing belt.

[Motown_Johnny]

44. and it is worh $10,000 ?!?!?

Are you sure about that?

[Dreamer Tatum]

45. Yup. Fully loaded Hondas age gracefully. nt

[Motown_Johnny]

59. Here is one with 58,000 miles for $9,500 and another one...

with 125,000 miles for $3,800 Both from the same dealer in LA. (Your profile just says CA so I took a guess) Yes, there are others out there where people are asking the same amout that you think your vehicle is worth, but would you buy one of those or one of these?


http://www.cars.com/go/search/detail.jsp?tracktype=usedcc&csDlId=&csDgId=&listingId=56011512&listingRecNum=3&criteria=prMx%3D10000%26sf1Dir%3DDESC%26prMn%3D0%26alMdId%3D20762%26mkId%3D20017%26stkTyp%3DU%26mdId%3D20762%26rd%3D50%26crSrtFlds%3DstkTypId-feedSegId-mkId-mdId-pseudoPrice%26zc%3D91335%26rn%3D0%26PMmt%3D1-1-0%26stkTypId%3D28881%26sf2Dir%3DASC%26sf1Nm%3Dprice%26sf2Nm%3Dmiles%26alMkId%3D20017%26rpp%3D50%26feedSegId%3D28705&aff=national

http://www.cars.com/go/search/detail.jsp?tracktype=usedcc&csDlId=&csDgId=&listingId=56011510&listingRecNum=27&criteria=prMx%3D10000%26sf1Dir%3DDESC%26prMn%3D0%26alMdId%3D20762%26mkId%3D20017%26stkTyp%3DU%26mdId%3D20762%26rd%3D50%26crSrtFlds%3DstkTypId-feedSegId-mkId-mdId-pseudoPrice%26zc%3D91335%26rn%3D0%26PMmt%3D1-1-0%26stkTypId%3D28881%26sf2Dir%3DASC%26sf1Nm%3Dprice%26sf2Nm%3Dmiles%26alMkId%3D20017%26rpp%3D50%26feedSegId%3D28705&aff=national

[Dreamer Tatum]

64. I was at the Chevy dealer yesterday. They offered $10K.

Oh, and the sticker on the Volt was $44K, not $40K.

Any other questions?

[Motown_Johnny]

69. I mentioned that the Volt sticker goes up to ~$45K

but you did still omit the tax credit

[totodeinhere]

11. Some people take into consideration more than just their financial bottom line.

If the car is good for the environment and is made in America, maybe it's "worth it" even if it's not best for you from strictly a financial perspective. Most people who purchase a Volt buy one for reasons other than financial considerations.

[Dreamer Tatum]

28. My car was made in America.

I don't owe American autoworkers JACK FUCKING SHIT - I don't make purchasing decisions based on the wants of the people who make whatever
it is.

And as for the environment...what went into the electricity production? Do you know what metals are mined to make those batteries, and how
they're mined?

[Historic NY]

48. Of course your discounting all the metals mined to make your ipad, computers & other electronic gi

note; battery's are recycled many times over. In NY your not even suppose to toss out your Duracell's or Eveready's. They may be mining but they're not reburying this stuff.

[msongs]

that's pretty much how wealthy people do things lol nt

[mn9driver]

12. I will never be able to pay $40,000 for a car.

It doesn't matter what the pay back time frame is. My current car is 16 years old with 200k miles on it; I need it to last another 4 years and another 100k miles. That is reality for me, and for a lot of other people, too.

[lumberjack_jeff]

13. You're neglecting a couple of things.

First is one must consider the value of the car at the end of 10 years relative to the value of a 10 year old suv.

Second, if your 15,000 miles are a commute (eg 58 miles each work day) and opportunity charging at your workplace is unavailable, then the Volt will only use about 2 gallons a week or 100 gallons annually.

Third is macroeconomic projections. Is it likely that the price of gas will drop, remain steady, or rise in the next 10 years?

Fourth, the $7500 tax credit brings the cost down to about $33,000.

Fifth, it's unrealistic in the extreme to expect that purchasing a new car is economically sensible compared to driving your current used one.

TCO is depreciation + maintenance + fuel.

Assuming the same cash budget of $33,000;
The new SUV depreciates $2400 each year (optimistic), $700 in maintenance, costs $4000 in fuel, for a grand total of $7100
The new Volt depreciates $1500 each year (a reasonable guess), $700 in maintenance, costs $400 in fuel and $400 for electricity for a grand annual total of $3000

The main value is in risk mitigation. What's the value of being able to travel if fuel becomes unavailable?

[Bluenorthwest]

15. If fuel was unavailable, the Volt stands still.

It requires gas and electricity. W/O gas, forty mile range. If that is your worry, electric cars are all over that are way less than the Volt and which require no gasoline at all, ever.

[Schema Thing]

21. most trips are far less than 40 miles

please repeat till understood.

[lumberjack_jeff]

24. It only requires gas if you need to go more than 40 miles.

For most of us, the grocery store is less than 40 miles away.

EVs may be common, but there isn't one within 10 miles of me.

[Selatius]

40. Technically speaking, it requires no gasoline for trips under 40 miles, as others have said.

Unlike other hybrid vehicles, the gasoline engine itself serves only to charge the battery when energy levels are low. It does not directly power the wheels. That's a job left to the electric motor entirely, which is powered by the battery.

[lumberjack_jeff]

47. I don't understand why not diesel.

A small diesel is a better powerplant for generating electricity.

[Motown_Johnny]

142. I am hoping they do that in the next incarnation of the vehicle

a bio-diesel version would be HUGH!!!


Maybe they didn't want to much culture shock at the outset

[safeinOhio]

90. Talked to a Volt owner that

said his electric bill went from $100/ month to $400/month when he plugged in his Volt. Only drives 10 to 20 miles a day. Tell me the price of electricity is not going to go up either.

[lumberjack_jeff]

135. Unpossible.

A chevy volt requires 25kwh per 100 miles. At worst, since the car will only go 40 miles on a charge, that means that a full charge takes 10kwh. In theory, you could charge the car twice per day for car that is driven 20 miles out and 20 miles back every 12 hours all month. So call it 20kwh.

20kwh * 30days = 600kwh. US average is about $0.10 per kwh.

Worst possible case scenario, a Volt could cost $60 per month for 2400 miles. To cost $300/month, the electric rate would have to be $0.50/kwh.

[GSLevel9]

146. don't muddy the argument with facts ;)

:sarcasm:

[Motown_Johnny]

149. Did you read the post right above yours?

the "Unpossible" one?

[roody]

154. If I had a Volt, it would be charged from the sunlight that

hits my PV array. I have a 2004 VW Golf Diesel and burn biodiesel half the time. I only drive 6 to 12 miles per workday, so I won't be buying a car soon.

[Tesha]

138. The Volt is likely to depreciate much more than $1500/year.

As an "early adopter's" car, it's overpriced compared
to what the technology will offer in just a few years.
If, in five years, there's a $25,000 equivalent to the
Volt, then the Volt, as a used car, will, by definition,
be worth quite a bit less than that new car.

One could also argue (and I've done so) that it's really
the ~$15,000 gently used Prius that makes the Volt a
truly uneconomical car.

Tesha

[lumberjack_jeff]

163. Crystal balls are in short supply.

I'm willing to bet that used Chevy Volts will hold good resale value for the same reason that a Prius does.

We have plenty of track record of the value proposition of a new SUV. There aren't many worse investments.

[Tesha]

168. Insults, though, obviously are plentiful.

Jeff, if you disagree with my analysis, tell me why.

The Volt is simply going to be an "early adopter's" car;
it won't be a collectible. As such, early adopters are going
to pay a non-recoverable price penalty.

If one is buying a Volt to support the concept, I applaud
that! I've certainly gladly paid the "early adopter penalty"
to support those technologies that I've felt strongly-enough
about and wanted to see encouraged.

But no one should buy a Volt thinking that 1) it's a good
investment or 2) it will pay you back in gasoline savings.
It 1) won't be and 2) won't, at least when compared to other
comparable choices you could make right now.

Tesha

[lumberjack_jeff]

175. Your projection is as much a guess as mine.

The first EV was built in 1902. Volt buyers aren't early adopters.

There aren't any compelling reasons to expect significant revolutionary advances in the marketplace in the next ten years than have occurred in the last ten. An EV will always be more expensive than a liquid fueled car. That value premium will exist throughout its useful life.

A nice unlimited range midsize plugin EV will always be more expensive than a comparably equipped liquid fueled car. If they're still building them in 2021, they'll still be 2x the price of an economy subcompact.

Yes, depending on the comparative resale value of the Volt, it may be possible to have lower TCO with a cheap economy car, but it's not a sure thing.

Prius. $25,000 sticker plus $1000 in fuel annually = $35,000 total 10 year cost. Worth $8,000 at the end of that period. Net cost $27,000.
Volt. $32,000 sticker plus $360 in electricity = $35,600 total 10 year cost. Side by side, I'd pay 50% more for a Volt or $12,000 simply for the annual fuel savings of $640 alone. Net cost $23,600.
Toyota Matrix. $21,000 sticker plus $1650 in fuel annually = $37,500 total 10 year cost. Residual value? Maybe $4000. Net cost $33,500.
1970 Chevelle. Nicely restored condition, $10,000 plus $3500 in fuel annually = $45,000 total 10 year cost. Residual value, $20,000. Net cost $25,000 not counting annual rear tire replacement.

[Kolesar]

14. What are you going to drive when your "socially unacceptable vehicle" fails?

Some outlay will be necessary. Unless you quit driving.

[napoleon_in_rags]

16. So you demand you recoup the WHOLE cost of the car?

The math I would do is more like this:

I want to buy a new car. Volt costs $40,000, car that is just as nice without being hybrid costs $25000, but gets 20 mpg.

Must recoup $15,000 in gas costs for it to be worthwhile, which is quite doable in lifespan of car. Other $25,000 is cost of nice new car for next years, which I will pay either way.

[Dreamer Tatum]

19. Yes. I own my current car outright. It is mine. nt

[Name removed]

25. Deleted message

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Occulus]

167. Considering that a new vehicle depreciates when you drive it off the lot,

that's laughably unrealistic.

I'm sorry. After that comment I simply can't take your other comments on this thread seriously.

You're doing a good job pulling legs, though. Personally, I don't buy a word of it after that unfortunate remark.

[Motown_Johnny]

17. $7,500 tax break, and resale value, and battery warranty.....

http://content.usatoday.com/communities/driveon/post/2010/07/chevy-volt-will-cost-41000-before-tax-rebate/1

^snip^

The company just announced that the new Chevy Volt will be priced at $41,000 for a base model, which General Motors promises will be fairly well-equipped, and $44,600 fully loaded. A $7,500 federal tax credit will be available to many customers.








The warranty on the battery is 8 years or 100,000 miles. It is entirely possible that you could get to 120,000 (8 years X 15,000 miles a year) without needing a battery. This means that what you are using to offset the added maintenance costs on your SUV may not be a valid number. It might also be that the battery goes before the warranty is up, if so then you have a much newer battery in your Volt and the value of the vehicle increases accordingly.


If we work with your numbers then in 8 years you would have saved $24,000 in gasoline and (presumable) not bought a new battery yet. If the vehicle can be sold at that time for $6,000 then it would be a wash compared to a vehicle that gets 15 mpg, assuming your SUV will continue to get 15 mpg for that entire time, and also assuming no maintenance costs for that SUV.


Nobody is claiming that the Volt is for everyone. It is the first of it's kind, not the last. I'm sure many horse and buggy owners were not interested in a Model A Ford.

Speaking of Ford....

http://www.wisn.com/r/28186426/detail.html

^snip^

Ford Announces Chevy Volt Competitor, C-Max Energi



NEW YORK (CNNMoney) -- Ford will soon produce a competitor to General Motors' Chevrolet Volt.

The new van-like compact car, due out next year, will be available in the U.S. in two hybrid versions. One of those, the C-Max Energi, will be a plug-in hybrid with capabilities similar to those of GM's Volt but with a much longer total driving range. The other version, the C-Max Hybrid, will be a standard hybrid, similar to the Toyota Prius or Ford's Escape Hybrid.

[Gman]

26. The cost of electricity, as you know, is a big part of the computations

It may be $100 month to charge it. Your savings are more around $1800. Then there are taxes and fees on your electric bill that are based on a percentage of the usage further reducing your savings.

[safeinOhio]

92. Try $300/month to charge it, then

redo the math.

[Motown_Johnny]

106. self delete

[lumberjack_jeff]

136. $300 is not accurate, or even possible.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=439&topic_id=1365916&mesg_id=1368122

[Motown_Johnny]

141. excellent post, so redo the math at $60.00/month, not $300.00

thanks for that

[lumberjack_jeff]

27. Simpler: You won't be buying one because you aren't in the market for a car.

Come back to us with an economic analysis when you are.

[KittyWampus]

29. Thanks for hitting the nail on the head. One wonders why the OP was even necessary or desirable.

[LondonReign2]

178. Yup, utterly flawed analysis

Comparing a new purchase to a sunk cost? Duh, of course it is more expensive to buy something (a new car) than not buy something (stick with the old car). But if you start with your end already in mind it is easy to come up with flawed math to support your case.

[Dreamer Tatum]

35. Quoth Barack Obama:

“If you’re complaining about the price of gas, and you’re only getting 8 miles to the gallon… you may wanna think about a trade-in.”

[lumberjack_jeff]

51. If you've decided to trade in...

... then the vehicle you're trading in shouldn't be option A to which you're comparing the Volt.

At least compare apples to oranges. Both apples and oranges are more expensive than buying nothing.

[veganlush]

30. I had this conversation with my brother.

It's not about "worth it". if you leave out of the equation all of the reasons to get away from fossil fuels, if the climate change thing and the enriching of middle eastern enemies are left out of the equation then i guess it's not worth it. I want to get a volt and use the "green currents" option from my electric company to buy the electricity at a slightly higher price from wind turbines. People have to make the "sacrifice" at first to make this viable. It'll pay off huge in the long run.

[Dreamer Tatum]

32. If that were true, the Volt would be free. nt

[Motown_Johnny]

36. it requires an up front investment that pays off later

that isn't the same as free

[7wo7rees]

31. I submit for your approval, Altima vs. Leaf (via NYT)

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/05/29/weekinreview/29volt.html?ref=weekinreview

[veganlush]

33. To fully charge the Volt

in your garage will cost about $1.50. The batteries are warranted for eight years, and by that time they should be more advance and cheaper.

[Dreamer Tatum]

38. I assumed the electricity costs were zero.

So it's still a loser. Unless, of course, the consumer cost were something like 75% defrayed by the government, which would
be fine with me.

[DainBramaged]

37. Who cares that you won't?

Seriously. I won't be buyina a japanese car, do you think I need to tell the World I'm not?


In two years the Volt will list for $25,000. Maybe then America will wake up and smell the coffee. Until then, the tooling and research has to be amortized, so keep your SUV.

[Dreamer Tatum]

41. That is the likely outcome. If gas is still $4 or higher, then I will do it. nt

[blue_onyx]

89. I know

I knew this would be a "pay attention to me" thread.

[DainBramaged]

155. Happens all the time 'round here when the discussion is about American iron

Impala in 2013 coming back to Detroit to be made. The Aveo is being replaced by the Sonic made In AMERICA, and all he wants to do is bash the Volt.


THOUSANDS of happy people would disagree with him.

[Taitertots]

43. Seems like you don't care about anything but your pocket book

No wonder we have such a hard time making any positive progress as a society. There is always someone poopooing anytime more than the bare minimum is expected of them.

[Dreamer Tatum]

49. I'm expected to lay out $40K for a car?

I donate time to the Food Bank and Habitat for Humanity. I am a Big Brother. My social bona fides are in good order, thank you.

[Taitertots]

71. Does a few good things excuse your conspicuous resource consumption?

Conspicuous consumption and resource destruction are not offset by a couple good things. You can't make up for it by doing something totally unrelated.

[Dreamer Tatum]

76. Buying a $40,000 isn't conspicuous consumption?

I see.

Does Pilates help you twist into that pretzel?

[Taitertots]

80. You don't know what conspicuous consumption is...

"spending in a lavish or ostentatious way, esp to impress others with one's wealth"
http://www.thefreedictionary.com/conspicuous+consumption

The volt is modestly priced, not ostentatious, not lavishly appointed, and wouldn't be being purchased by you to impress others with your wealth.

[Dreamer Tatum]

81. Glad you think that a $40,000 car is "modestly priced"

I wager that for many others, it looks expensive.

Enjoy your caviar.

[Taitertots]

84. In the new car market, $40,000 is modestly priced

It is more than some people can afford, but it remains modestly priced for a new car.

[Dreamer Tatum]

87. Must be nice to be rich. nt

[Taitertots]

95. Rich.... You are the one who is talking about buying one

My car cost 1/10th that and gets over 35 mpg. You pay as much a year for gas as I did for my car. Which one of us is the rich one?

[woo me with science]

162. MODERATELY PRICED??????

:rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl:

[Dappleganger]

172. Oh if we could all only be just like you...

We have never, ever, ever been able to afford a new car at that price or even HALF that price. The last new car we bought was a Honda Civic DX in 1996, and we couldn't even afford to add the floor mats at the dealer.

To think that ordinary people should be expected to fork over 40K for a new car as our "duty" is nothing short of fucking stupid. STUPID.

[Shagbark Hickory]

46. What will the volt be worth in 10 years (resale) vs the suv?

For all we know the volt could be worth $25k.

[canoeist52]

50. Tell me why I should spend a whole years salary on any vehicle.

And how I would pay other bills while I made those payments.

Chevy just priced themselves out of range for 90% of buyers in the U.S.

[Dreamer Tatum]

52. Shh - pointing that out requires "freeper math"! nt

[KittyWampus]

58. How much was a computer in 1990? How much is one today?

[Dreamer Tatum]

61. Great point - in 21 years, it will probably make sense to buy a hybrid.

Granted.

[KittyWampus]

70. I wish you'd put that in the OP. It would have made a lot of difference.

[Dreamer Tatum]

72. It will also make sense to buy a Liverator 5000 and a 500Mw Nukepack in 20 years.

Equally relevant.

[theophilus]

55. That is your decision to make. I hope, however, that a brazillion other

people make the opposite decision and buy a Volt or a Leaf. I also hope the price will come down sharply if that happens. Our lives depend on getting off of AS MUCH fossil fuel as possible.

Now, I would like to believe that GM is going to crank up the output on the Volt and that Nissan will flood the market with Leafs. I don't see it, though. The fix is in and there is still not a powerful group pushing to save our ecosystems. We are stupid as a people, imo.

[ArcticFox]

56. You forget resale value in your calculation

[Dreamer Tatum]

60. No I didn't - I'm keeping my current vehicle until it's junk.

As I would do with a Volt. Residual value is zero.

[Codeine]

63. Some of us don't sell our cars.

Mine get used until their only value is the $75 Pick-A-Part will give me for the non-running leftovers after I've ground a quarter-million+ out of them.

[bullwinkle428]

62. Prepare to keep that Honda for a while - mine just passed 278K miles.

[Dreamer Tatum]

66. Oh, I plan on it. It's a ULEV that has passed emissions in three different states.

I love it.

[JNelson6563]

65. What's in it for me?

There are other reasons to make a purchase besides money. Buying a Volt represents an investment in Detroit's effort to come back and compete in areas where they haven't really made the effort. It also represents an investment in the new technologies being developed and the existing ones being implemented into newly built or existing, refurbished manufacturing plants. Volt buyers are helping to create jobs, burn less gas, which helps our environment, it helps our unions and the workers they support. Then there are all the businesses here in America that benefit from the jobs created. Employed people buy things, get haircuts, eat out and support their local economies.

But yeah, you don't recoup your investment fast enough for your tastes so fuck all that, or, as you would say "Not worth it". For some reason, while reading your OP, this image came to mind:

[Dreamer Tatum]

67. New Chevy marketing blitz:

"The Volt! Buy one, or you will die in a hurricane, and if you don't, you're a FUCKING REPUBLICAN!"

As I said elsewhere, my social awareness bona fides are in excellent order. And I buy other things that
help support PLENTY of people, thanks. I'm not worried about American auto workers...instead I worry about the
millions of workers that we DON'T bail out.

[JNelson6563]

129. Let's not get carried away

No one challenged your bona fides. I simply said your post reminded me of that graphic. I guess it was the all-about-me-and-my-personal-gain slant in your OP that brought it to mind.

If you don't want to be called on your words than maybe you shouldn't post them on a public forum. Frankly I am surprised you do, there is little personal gain to be had by it.

Julie

[totodeinhere]

88. +1 n/t

[John Paul Jones]

68. You may not have a choice...

[TaupeDem]

73. I have to say that I don't trust anyone anymore and when I hear the words green technology

my first thoughts are who's behind it and how many billions are they going to make while charging regular people outrageous prices and enriching themselves. I say that if you want to do something that benefits the environment and humanity then the people behind it should sign contracts limiting how much they financially benefit from those profits, especially if there's a mandate by the government to use those products.

[madokie]

74. At this point to me its not so much recouping the money as it is to spur on development,

build and sale of said vehicles.
2012 Ford is coming out with the Focus EV and we're planning on buying one even though we don't think we'll live long enough for it to pay off as such. In the end the world will be better for our having purchased one though, looking at the big picture that is. Chevy Volt, wrong company for me to be buying a car from so I'll pass on it plus for the most part its nothing but a hybrid. I/we want an EV.

[bluestate10]

108. You are farsighted and a true citizen of the US and the world. nt

[madokie]

110. I do have a grand child so I do have to look to the future

rather than have a right now mindset.

[7wo7rees]

161. Is that an EV in your sigline?. It looks homemade.

What is that anyway? A lawnmower? A hoveround? A mobile bar seat?
No disrespect, but, what is it?

[madokie]

185. it was built by me for use in my yard work

I used the motors from a hoveround and a controller from a invacare power chair to drive it. Under the seat is two 75 amp hr wet deep cycle batteries.
I have problems with walking much, PAD, and we have a rather large yard that requires a lot of maintenance so I built this to help me with that chore. the bed is also a dump bed. I also use it to carry my old ass around when I go foraging for mushrooms. its top speed is 5.2 mph measured with a gps and it will go up a 20% grade with no problems. I use a chain drive between the motors and the drive wheels so the motors still have the same load on them as if they were still connected to the power chairs 9 inch diameter wheels.

I've been making my toys my whole life and this is but one of them.
Thank you for asking. :hi:

I use AutoCad in designing and drawing my plans. I run AutoCad using wine in Ubuntu.

[sendero]

75. Your calculations..

.. could be applied to any new car purchase, so long as you assume there is no value in driving a new car.

If everyone thought like you,nobody would ever buy a new car. There is practically never a pure economic justification for buying a new car.

[Dreamer Tatum]

77. That is correct, and I said as much above. nt

[madinmaryland]

79. Un-recced. Wow! Terrible comparison. You are comparing apples to oranges...

A fair comparison, since you are looking at new vehicles would be to compare the volt to a new gasoline powered vehicle.

[Dreamer Tatum]

83. So my current car doesn'tr exist? Do you know something I don't?

Is it going to disappear or get stolen? Please let me know. I'm on tenterhooks.

:eyes:

[madinmaryland]

99. Obviously you don't understand making equal comparisons.

You are keeping your existing car is because of a comparison with a volt and why a volt? How about a comparison, also, with another gasoline powered vehicle that is $40k.

:eyes:

[Dreamer Tatum]

115. Man alive, are there some lulus in this thread.

The DECISION was whether to buy a Volt.

The ALTERNATIVE is to keep what I have.

Do you see? I CURRENTLY OWN A CAR.

[madinmaryland]

119. Why is the only alternate to buy a Volt or keep you existing car. Just curious.

[KittyWampus]

122. Exactly, the OP'er refuses to acknowledge the absurd premise of this entire thread.

[AlabamaLibrul]

132. Perhaps it has something to do with the fact that anyone who's looking for a new car

and doesn't immediately jump to the Volt is characterized as a polar-bear-hating, union-busting Republican.

[lumberjack_jeff]

164. I've been considering a luxury hotel. Maybe Trump towers.

But I already have a house, therefore Trump towers is an overpriced ripoff.

[guruoo]

82. The Volt is not an end, it's merely the next necessary step in the evolutionary process.

And that is THE point.

[MadHound]

85. You're making a couple of basic mistakes

First off, you are looking to recoup the full price of the Volt, rather than simply recouping the difference in price between a gas powered vehicle that you would buy and the cost of the Volt. Assuming that you would buy another Honda SUV, the difference amounts to approximately 12,000 dollars, depending on the make of the vehicle and the option package you get.

Second, you are forgetting that gas prices over the long term rise, considerably. Thus, your savings would be great down the road than it is now:shrug:

[Dreamer Tatum]

86. Last time: I own my current vehicle.

Comparing the cost of the Volt to my current car requires (a) full amortization, or (b) paying it off right away.
So yes, to keep me whole, the cost needs to be recouped. Sorry.

A cheaper vehicle would have better economics for me, for sure, even if it's gas powered.

I haven't forgotten that fuel prices rise, but even at $8 a gallon it would take a long time to justify the expense.

This isn't that hard.

[Romulox]

93. You're not comparing like to like, so your conclusion is faulty.

"So yes, to keep me whole, the cost needs to be recouped. Sorry."

Unfortunately, your logic is flawed, and therefore the cascading conclusions you draw are invalid. The proper comparison is between the Volt and a comparable gasoline powered vehicle purchased NEW. By your logic, NO new car will ever be worthwhile, and yet millions are sold each year. :hi:

[MadHound]

94. I recognize that you own your vehicle outright

There is no need to be a condescending ass, OK. Now then, let's go through this.

Is your choice between keeping your current vehicle or buying just a Volt? No, I'm assuming that if your current vehicle is ten years old, and you are looking into buying a Volt, you're actually looking to buy a new car of some sort or another. It could be a Volt, it could be a more traditional vehicle, correct? Because face the fact, your ten year old SUV, Honda or otherwise, is likely not going to last you another ten years without dumping some serious cash into it. New clutch, tranny, brakes, head gasket, etc. etc., these are all going to start breaking down at some point in the relatively near future, it is part of the lifespan of a car.

So, you can either continue to dump parts into the old SUV, and continue to get bad gas mileage, or you can do what most people do, get a new vehicle.

That is where the issue of the price differential comes in. Since you're going to have to get a new vehicle, the difference in pricing is what you're looking to recoup, now the difference between your current, fully paid car and a Volt.

If, on the other hand, you're not in the market for a new car, then this whole exercise in math becomes rather academic, because when it comes to impact on the environment, you have to figure the impact that simply producing a new vehicle causes. I generally run my vehicles into the ground because I don't want to be one of those idiots taxing the Earth by buying a new vehicle every three years(average turnaround is somewhere between three and four years). Thus, you should keep your current vehicle until it becomes financially unwise to continue to own it. How long that might be all depends on the wear and tear on the car. There are certain old car killers, things like needing a new tranny, or a crack in the engine block, etc. etc. Once these happen, it is time to get a new car.

So, don't do the math based on the difference in costs between your current vehicle and a new Volt. Actually compare apples to apples like we do in the real world, comparing the price of a new gas only car and the Volt:shrug:

[Dreamer Tatum]

107. I'm a CFA. I did the math correctly.

Thanks for your concern.

[Motown_Johnny]

109. your assumptions were questionable, check post #105 please

[madinmaryland]

111. I sure am glad you are not my Financial Advisor.

:scared:

[Dreamer Tatum]

114. I don't work with jars of pennies.

I have an insult for you for every one you level at me.

[madinmaryland]

118. Actually the point is, if you cannot make a reasonable analysis, taking into account

what should be "all" of the options, then why would we be able to trust us to advise us on our finances.

:shrug:

[MadHound]

128. You might be doing the math correctly,

But that doesn't matter if you are starting with the wrong basic premise and assumptions. Which is exactly what you are doing in this exercise of yours.

Compare apples to apples, try it sometime.

[Initech]

97. You forget there's a $7500 tax credit, dropping the price to $32,000.

Check Consumer Reports - they did an article about the actual costs of buying a Volt and how many incentives the government gives you to buy one. I actually talked to a guy who owned one and he said that in a span of five months - he's only used a total of 26 gallons of gas. Hell I go through that in two weeks with my Nissan. That alone would make it worth it - just by not buying all that gas.

[bluestate10]

101. So. Why not demand that the 1% upper crust be forced to buy Chevy

Volts, so that liberals that demand a cleaner planet won't have to shell out a few more bucks? After all, isn't the OP about getting ahead? I pay more for clothing and american made products in the hope that others will join me and help keep american garment workers employed in the face of cheap imports. Why not demand that the Chevy Volt get built by virtual slave chinese labor so that it is affordable?

[Courtesy Flush]

103. That's only true if you never plan to buy a new car.

Sure, if you're happy with your present car, and it's reliable, you'd be spending that $30k that you wouldn't otherwise spend.

But if you needed a new car, and the alternative was say, a $25K Ford Somethingorother, then you'd only be looking at justifying an extra $15K. And if your tastes are more expensive, then the Volt might start to look more attractive.

Like you, I won't run out an replace my perfectly good car just because the Volt is on the market. But someday, it might be worth a look for me.

[Motown_Johnny]

112. Worst Case Scenario

You pay around 45K for the Volt


In 8 years you pay about 3K for a new battery


In another 8 years you junk the car when that second battery goes


You have 48K into the vehicle plus the maintenance you would have with any vehicle


You have saved 3K a year in fuel for 16 years totaling 48K


The car has paid for itself and it's second battery and you have saved about a quarter million pounds of CO2 from going into the atmosphere.

[Dreamer Tatum]

117. From the impassioned responses in this thread, I don't think I could find a Volt, anyway.

All you guys should be out there snapping them right up. It's either the soundest financial decision anyone
could ever make, or the most selfless possible thing one can do.

Would love to debate this stuff some more, but I am going out in the sun to help clear a lot so that a home can
be built for a family that lost theirs in a fire.

You are all welcome to come along - just drive your new Volts to San Diego County and PM me.

[krispos42]

177. With nationwide vacancy rates at 10%, why is a new home being built? n/t

[Odin2005]

121. "ME ME ME ME ME" What happened to caring for the environment?

[dems_rightnow]

124. Please post a picture

Of your Volt. Thanks!

[Canuckistanian]

126. Total bullshit argument

People can only buy what they can afford. And I don't exactly see used car lots full of affordable electric or hybrid cars.

But it's the attitude of the OP that KEEPS things the way they are.

[Spider Jerusalem]

123. If you really wanted to save money and see some realistic return...

you'd be a lot better off trading in your SUV toward a Ford Fiesta (MSRP: $13995), whihc gets 40mpg and would reduce your fuel costs significantly enough that you'd come close to break-even in terms of expenditure in the first year.

[Name removed]

125. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

179. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[TheKentuckian]

127. Any new car in the universe faces similar math. If you aren't in the market for one why

talk about the subject at all?

[formercia]

130. The Volt is for people

who live in a McMansion, use 10 times the electricity and fuel to heat their home than the average American, and their primary vehicle is a ultra-large SUV. This is a new toy to play with and make themselves feel good for doing something about the Environment.

[zoosareprisons]

131. You missed a variable

The environmental cost of each vehicle. (e)

Since we all share that cost (e/p) it should be included in your calculation.

[Motown_Johnny]

139. true, but if you divide it by 7 billion of us it is negligible in this calculation

not that I disagree with you

as I said earlier....

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=439&topic_id=1365916&mesg_id=1366610

^snip^


....So that 48,000 would have bought 12,000 gallons of gas at $4.00/gal.

Multiply that by a conservative 20 pounds per gallon and you get 240,000 pounds of CO2 that you didn't create.

[taught_me_patience]

133. Looks like you're forgetting residual value in your calculations

I think depreciation will be your biggest expense in cost of ownership.

[Motown_Johnny]

140. the OPer claims to plan on driving it until it is junk

so there is no resale value in this calculation



I tried that earlier

[Schema Thing]

145. but there will be for the Volt at the time that the other vehicle is junked.

and that number will no doubt be in the several thousands of dollars.

[Motown_Johnny]

147. agreed, the OP has some pretty screwed up numbers

I tried to address them here....

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=439&topic_id=1365916&mesg_id=1366610

....and here....

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=439&topic_id=1365916&mesg_id=1368496


...but it didn't help

[Schema Thing]

151. it helped the forum :)

[peopleb4money]

150. The batteries only last 10 years too, and they costs like 20 grand to replaceI

A lot of people might buy electric cars to boycott oil, but you'd just be supporting a lot of the same interests. Afghanistan has about 1 trillion dollars worth of lithium, and war profiteers have their eyes on it.

I'd rather pay for a short range vehicle with some cheaper, lead acid batteries that aren't powered by blood lithium.

[Schema Thing]

152. I heard they cost 25 bazzillion to replace!

and you're lucky if they last 5 years.

[peopleb4money]

153. Wow, tis worst than I thought, 25 whole bazillions. God damn.

lol, its not a real, practical solution to the fuel problem. I read somewhere they can run a car on methane from human sewage though. It might make the road smell like farts though.

[Schema Thing]

158. actually you couldn't be more wrong.

It's a very real, very practical solution to the fuel problem. It is not "the" solution (there is no "the solution"), but it's a good one that can be taken advantage of by anyone who can afford a 32,000 car - and the numbers of 32k cars out there tells us that that is a lot of people. Also, the lower cost of electricity and much higher mpg means that some people who can't quite afford a 32k car will be able to afford this one due to the lower cost of powering it.

[Motown_Johnny]

160. can you post links to these things you have read? The 20K replacement cost

for the Volt battery seems a bit out of line.

I also disagree with your assessment of the technology. We will always need electricity to run things. Electric vehicles and electric hybrids are a sensible approach, the infrastructure already exists to support them.

It would make more sense to burn that methane from human sewage in a natural gas electric plant and then use the electricity in the vehicles.

[peopleb4money]

165. One of te estimates on some website called future pundists costs around 20,000

for the leaf. That's based on the current price of car batteries. Some rumors apparently put it at 12 grand though.

http://www.futurepundit.com/archives/007067.html

The warranty runs out at 8 years and 100,000 miles, and I wouldn't be surprised if the batteries need to be replaced not too long after that. We don't really know how long they last really, because its new technology. All I know is that it would suck to have cascading battery failure after the warranty expiration.

http://www.nissanusa.com/leaf-electric-car/faq/view/34#/leaf-electric-car/faq/view/34

According to Nissan, they don't have estimates for their own battery replacement yet.

The guy could be talking out his ass though. I don't really know.

[Motown_Johnny]

186. More like $8,000 using that site's numbers (maybe even more like $4,800)

It starts out by stating that if the battery cost $20,000 then the car would cost $60,000, so the battery can't possibly cost $20,000


and it speculates that the cost of the Leaf's battery is $500.00/kWh


This would put the Volt's battery replacement cost at $8,000 if those numbers held true


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chevrolet_Volt


^snip^


The battery pack stores 16 kW·h of energy but it is controlled or buffered via the energy management system to use only 10.4 kW·h of this capacity to maximize the life of the pack.





*Edit To Add*

If you read the very first response to that article it says

http://www.futurepundit.com/archives/007067.html

^snip^

You cannot rely on published reports for current lithium battery prices. Right now you can purchase lithium batteries suitable for electric vehicle applications (LiFePo4 chemistry) for $368 per kWh, right off-the-shelf delivered anywhere with no minimum purchase (yes, you can buy a single battery cell at that price). Current wholesale prices at modest volumes drops that to $300/kWh range NOW. The manufacturing cost of the Leaf battery is probably under $6,000.



That puts the Volt battery at $4,800. As I said, that $20,000 number is way out of line.

[DainBramaged]

156. Sure, and geese lay golden eggs.......

:shrug:


Back up your hearsay with facts, even the Prius batteries, basically the same as in the Volt, last longer.

[peopleb4money]

157. IWell, that was for the Leaf. It cost like $20,000 to replace after 10 years.

I'm sure the volt wouldn't be cheap either. It has partly to do with the scarcity of Lithium. Maybe battery sellers could deduct the cost off new batteries for trading in old ones. Can't lithium be recovered and reprocessed from old cells?

[DainBramaged]

184. You have NO idea what you are talking about, the is no price for the Leaf battery yet

because ALL are under warranty, therefore, no service price is available.

AND fyi, the first Leaf was delivered this year, so how can you estimate any cost 10 years out?

[fishwax]

159. that argument isn't really specific to the volt

if you have a car that's paid off and is still reliable (as a honda with 100k will likely be, in my experience) then it doesn't really make sense to buy any new car, volt or otherwise. (Speaking strictly financially--there are other factors that come into play for some, of course.)

[Name removed]

166. Deleted message

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[IDemo]

169. I think Volts are great and could probably afford one

But I won't be buying one anytime soon. I'm in the same place as the OP; have a 1993 Toyota with only 58k miles in near new condition and simply don't see the point in dumping it for a new vehicle. Especially since I drive very, very little and commute primarily by motorcycle when the weather permits. If money is left after all that needs done to the house, I am still employed, the health issues haven't worsened, and the economy hasn't gone still further into the toilet, I could see getting into an electric some day, or even attempting a conversion. We have the cheapest electricity in the nation, so that's not a problem.

[Romulox]

170. The OP's logic falls flat when applied to ANY new car.

His 10 year old (Isuzu made) "Honda" is worth more than ANY new car, by his logic. :hi:

[ileus]

173. I'll stick to my 31-33mpg honda accord...

[krispos42]

174. The numbers are about right

If you are going to buy a new car anyway, though, the math comes out different.


If you are already intent on purchasing a new vehicle because it has newer safety features, better gas mileage, and will be more reliable and under warranty, then the question is... is the extra cost of the Volt worth it?


The Volt is a compact sedan, much like the Ford Focus or Honda Civic.

So let's look at the numbers.


Chevy Volt is $40,000, but you get a federal tax credit of $7,500. So it really costs you $32,500 before taxes and fees.


You have a $10,000 vehicle to trade in, so you pay out-of-pocket $22,500.


Depending on your commute, you'll get between 37 and 93 miles per gallon, but let's go with 60mpg to be consistent.


A basic Ford Focus S-model with a few comfort features (floor mats, remote start, trunk liner, cargo net) runs about $20,000, so you spend $10,000 out-of-pocket and you'll get about 31mpg combined.


Assuming you drive 15,000 miles a year, the Ford would cost you $1,935 in gas a year.

The Volt would cost you $1,000 a year. You're savings is $935 a year versus the Ford.



So with the Volt, you spend $22,500 out of pocket, then $1,000 a year for fuel. Your equation for costs is 22,500 + 1,000 x t, where "t" is time in years.




With the Focus, you spend $10,000 out of pocket, then $1,950 a year for fuel. So your equation for costs is 22,500 + 1,950 x t.


With this math, the break-even point is 13 years down the road between the Ford and the Chevy.





You're SUV's cost is $0 out of pocket, then $4,000 a year for fuel.

Your break-even point against the Ford is 4.88 years, against the Chevy it's 7.5 years.



But assuming $0 of of pocket is not realistic for the coming decade or two (repair expenses) so let's give you a new engine and transmission at some point. It's a four-wheel-drive, so let's just say $5,000 at some point in total. Might be for a rebuilt tranny, or a new set of heads, or whatever.


Okay, so we have $5,000 + $4,000 x t for your current SUV with the repairs included.


Your break-even point for the Focus is 2.44 years and for the Chevy it's 5.83 years.





The difference is that by buying the Volt, you're pushing future technology more than buying a Focus.

[supernova]

183. Depends on how long you keep your car

whether or not any one person thinks a new hybrid is worth it financially.

When I was a kid my uncle regularly traded in huge land yachts every 2-3 years. It meant that he always had a car payment. But that's what he had for a luxury, otherwise I guy who worked the graveyard shift in the boiler room at the VA. I think trading them in every few years is nuts.


12-15 years would be doable for me, I tend to keep my cars a long time.
My current car is a 2002 loaded Honda CR-V that I bought used from the first owner in 2006. it only has 67K on it. I expect to keep it for another 5 to 7 years at least. By that time, I will have room for a hybrid or I hope fully electric vehicle. I expect they will be better on range by then. Or like someone else said upthread, a combo biodiesel and electric.