The most cowardly job on earth is in Nevada

[ThomWV]

I have a nephew I get to talk to from time to time. The fellow is in his late 30's, he is a Captain (Pilot) in the Air Force. He is stationed in Nevada Sits in a cubical during his working hours flying armed Drones over Afghanistan and Pakistan. He told me once, a couple of months ago, that 'this is real combat, these are real bullets'.

I am and old man now, but I was part of my generations war. I know what real bullets are and what they do. My nephew has the most cowardly job on earth.

[RandomThoughts]

1. Anyone that fights for better ideas will quickly find courage.

Because the bad side of ideas likes to use fear.

It is pretty consistent across the centuries.

[BOG PERSON]

46. what about the Reign of Terror

that was an instance of fear being used to promote Good Ideas (e.g. republicanism + communism are better than monarchy + money-power)

[RandomThoughts]

67. After french Revolution, the period of purge is what I assume you speak of.

Although the 'terror' of what you are speaking about was actually less then the 'terror' of economic hardship and iron fist rules before that period. It is probably taught that way by the groups that like monarchy and rule by a few. Basically it was a purge. Although that should be by justice, not by edict, if a society feels there are areas where things can be improved by removing some problems.

And I would not say it promoted good ideas, if it did not use proper Due Process with Justice, it hurts its own movement if done by 'edict' not justice, and I think the guy that was doing that end up in the same position as those he did that to.

I do think the era is mislabeled in history for PR reasons. Although you see that tendency many times in class struggles. Personally I think the few that are causing issues with consolidations, monopolies, or other areas that cause problems should be helped to see those problems they create before those type of things occur.

When that lady of that period said, 'let them eat cake' it has been surmised it was not a statement of lack of caring, but she really didn't know they did not have cake to eat when they had no bread. The self isolation of the monarch class wall, that kept them from knowing what was going on, made it impossible for them to rule.

Also why you see so many stories about Prince and the Pauper, Man in the Iron Mask, Rangers in the field. And what the idea of refreshing the tree of liberty is more about, then hurting tyrants, but by moving in people that are more able to understand the society they are around. Also why Masons look through society for people that pop up with qualities that match ideas of there group, knowing that there has to be people from many groups and areas with many different experiences, and not the forms of thought that ideology can create when it is not added to from unspoiled areas.

But anyways, that is a long topic.




I think Colbert works in the fields. Some may disagree.
http://www.colbertnation.com/the-colbert-report-videos/340925/july-08-2010/arturo-rodriguez

Jessica Alba - Sin City Bar Scene
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lfpKjRitYdE


Brothers in Arms - Dire Straits
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k5JkHBC5lDs

Bonnie Raitt - I Can't Make You Love Me
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nW9Cu6GYqxo

Bonnie Raitt - Nick Of Time
http://www.123video.nl/playvideos.asp?MovieID=407128

Dire Straits - Walk of Life
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vZxVC0GB838


Constantine - Bring me to life (Evanescence)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dx8d3K_hngw

[aikoaiko]

2. Seems like a harsh assessment to me. We've always been maximizing impact while mimiizing casualties

:shrug:

edited to add: minimizing, that is.

[piratefish08]

9. minimizing casualties by expanding the number of countries we drone bomb?

Somalia now makes 6.

seems counter-productive, eh?

[aikoaiko]

21. Better than nation wide invasions. FWIW

[DirkGently]

71. Is it, when we're bombing places we have no right or basis to invade?

Talking about drone bombings like they're just another war tactic misses the point. These aren't wars. They're semi-targeted killings that are killing plenty of non-combatants, often in places where America claims not be conducting a war at all.

The "cowardice" is the political cowardice and dishonesty of dropping bombs on people in places we could never justify invading, and in promoting just the kind of fantasy we're seeing in this thread -- that somehow we're neatly killing just "bad people," and why worry, because there won't be any *Americans* killed in the process.

The tactic itself is not the problem. In a real war, with real justifications, against a clear enemy. As applied, it's a secretive, unaccountable assassination program.

[readmoreoften]

44. Wow. Talk about detached...

But what do we expect from a society that drops remote bombs from 1000s of miles away.

[aikoaiko]

45. I'm sure its real enough to the drone operator and certainly real enough for those who are targeted.

Armed drones don't bother me. Using them appropriately in justified actions is my only concern.

[Cid_B]

64. Ok new plan...

I'll send an evite to the local warlord and I will provide him with the number of troops I have along with some key demographics. I will ask him to bring the same amount of troops.

Now he doesn't have enough armor for his troops so I'll just have my guys wear ACUs.

We'll pick a local valley and each pick a side. Now, my M-4 carbines have an effective range of 500 meters and the AKs only go to 350 so I'll move my guys in so that everything is nice and fair with no head starts.

Finally we'll just go at it Revolutionary war style and just get in a big long line and shoot the shit out of each other. That sounds just peachy and above all... FAIR

Sheesh...

Seriously though, I love UAS systems. I used to call local district police chiefs out on their bullshit because I could see exactly what his guys were doing ( or likely not doing)

[lumberjack_jeff]

51. "Impact" and "casualties" are the same thing. Dead people. Only difference is color. n/t

[aikoaiko]

54. Yes, what I should have said was increase casualties and destuction on the opposing side while

minimizing the casualties and destruction on our side.

[NNN0LHI]

3. I swear I read somewhere that these drone pilots were stationed in Florida some years ago

Sure this good ole boy isn't bullshitting you?

Not saying I am right and you are wrong but I think that is what I read somewhere.

Don

[atreides1]

15. No

They're in Nevada, Creech AFB, formerly know as Indian Springs.

The host unit is the 432d Wing, which has six operational squadrons, one maintenance squadron, and MQ-9 Reapers and MQ-1 Predators.

[Brother Buzz]

49. United States Central Command (USCENTCOM) is in Florida

I believe drone deployment decisions are made in Florida

[brendan120678]

4. 'this is real combat, these are real bullets'

I believe that to be a valid point.

Imagine how Civil War veterans must have thought about WWI veterans.
Or imagine how WWI veterans must have thought about WWII veterans.
Or imagine how WWII veterans though about Korean and Vietnam veterans.
Etc,
Etc,
Etc.

As the years go by, warfare changes. Undoubtedly, it gets "easier," but it is still real.

[ThomWV]

6. In every example you give the enemy gets to fight back.

[Rebubula]

8. The Goal of war...

...is NOT to die for your country.

It is to make the other poor bastard die for HIS country.

(Patton)


The goal is also to win. War sucks - but it is a reality. I would rather our enemy not have the ability to fight back.

[atreides1]

19. But

Does that include women and children? Or don't the lives of innocent people matter to you?

Your concept reminds me of this axiom:Kill them all and let God sort them out.

[Javaman]

27. give me a war that doesn't have women and children dying

and I will show you peace.

while I hate the fact that women and children die during war, it's been happening since the dawn of time.

And if you are comparing what is happening now, in regards to these stupid ass drone strikes killing innocent civilians, I suggest you read up on the bombing of Hamburg, Tokyo and Dresden. That is if you are looking for the shear numbers of innocent people killed.

Death from above, death from beyond and death from the other side of the planet. It matters not how the ordinance is delivered, it's just that it's delivered.

As I asked below, is the OP pissed at his nephew because he's not experiencing battle first hand? If so, how does that jibe with Battleships that deliver ordinance from 30 miles away or bombers that drop bombs from 30,000 feet?

Is it an Army vs Air Force rivalry?

The object of any military force is to make sure your soldiers don't die and the opposing army does. So by having someone piloting a drone half a world away is bad militarily? I don't know how? It costs millions of dollars to train a single pilot. The drones are less expensive than a manned aircraft. So if the aircraft is shot down, the pilot is still safe. How is that bad, militarily speaking of course?

The face of warfare is changing and changing rapidly.

DARPA is actively working on Drone vehicles. There will certainly be drone tanks. Bank on it.

This is the military of the present/future.

[SolutionisSolidarity]

42. I guess it's a good thing the country is collapsing then.

The last bubble to pop will be the military complex.

[Javaman]

43. and it will be a hell of a pop. nt

[Zebedeo]

90. I agree

with much of what you say. Forgive me for nitpicking, but it is "ordnance." An "ordinance" is something else entirely.

[WatsonT]

30. More precise muntions limit civilian casualties

having fewer boots on the ground is better for us and them (soldiers may rape and pillage, an RC plane is unlikely to do so).

[Glassunion]

50. You just don't lead them as much.

:evilgrin:

[kas125]

37. WHAT enemy? We're killing innocent people every single day

with those horrid machines. What we're doing is making more enemies who will do whatever it takes to find a way to fight back. It's not only cowardly and despicable, it's counter productive.

[Nevernose]

76. "Blood and Guts" Patton

My grandfather served under Patton and was bitter about that man til the day he died. He used to say, "Blood and guts Patton, right -- it was always his guts and our blood."

For the record, we're not in a war. When you unleash robot death machines to kill random strangers on the opposite side of the globe, for undefined reasons and for undefined objectives, it ceases being a war. At that (this) point it becomes, quite simply, murder, and maybe terrorism.

[krispos42]

96. Then your issue is not necessarily the tools of war...

...but the employment of those tools.


That is my issue as well.

[WatsonT]

29. Because in every other war we've tried to maximize our enemies ability to fight back?

To show off how brave we are?

I'm sure some Japanese Hiroshima survivors would have a thing to say about their ability to fight back in that war.

[JVS]

11. It doesn't necessarily get easier. WWI was probably worse than the Civil war.

[Javaman]

32. depends on the view point...

I think both had their share of horrible things.

in the end, people still die.

It's just the manner in which they die that changes.

[lumberjack_jeff]

53. ... "and I stress about it every afternoon in the breakroom over a game of pinball."

[pa28]

68. delete. wrong place

[hobbit709]

5. In his late 30's and still a Captain?

He's either incompetent or pissed someone off.

[ThomWV]

7. In and out several times

If I had to guess I'd say that he has been out as much as he has been in.

[Cid_B]

62. Or prior service...

Sheesh...

[nadinbrzezinski]

65. That partcular squadron has really low advancement

there was a story posted a few months or years back on that.

They are also fighting an uphill battle with the actual real jockeys... most of the staff came from either medical issues, can't fly rea jets no more, or could not to begin with. It was a real fight to get them to wear wings.

The AF has a few issues...

[TwilightGardener]

73. Prior enlisted.

Speaking of my own spouse, you can certainly be a captain into your forties if you have ten years of being enlisted behind you before you became an officer.

[Bragi]

10. It's certainly dehumanizing and appalling

While I would agree there is absolutely nothing "brave" about human semi-droids flying deadly drones, I don't quite buy the idea that this is a "cowardly" act in itself.

Frankly, your nephew's job sis not much different than an accountant, say, sitting in a cubicle counting up numbers, which is neither brave or cowardly. He is just a war bureaucrat.

However, what your nephew is doing is certainly "dehumanizing" because it allows him to kill real people video game-style without experiencing first-hand the horrific human consequences of his actions.

I think this is what makes drone warfare so dangerous and odious. You can end up with an army of human droids inflicting horrendous harm on others remotely and dispassionately, while still getting home in time for dinner and baseball with the kids.

And since they feel no compunction about killing people in foreign lands that way, why would automatons of this sort have any problem doing their job some future day with the new targets being "hostiles" and "criminals" within the U.S itself?

That seems to me to be where this is headed. The future America will be on permanent lockdown, and the automatons in cubicles now running the drone programs will be critical pawns in preserving the "new order" of things.

[Stevenmarc]

12. I'd say the most cowardly job on earth would be the bloviating chickenhawk

[ensho]

13. it is a strange job, to daily sit in a comfortable office and kill people

thousands of miles a way.

I would think that that would mess with one's brain.

unless they only give the job to a person that has no empathy or conscience or sense of the bazaar.

[Taverner]

18. Not to nit pic, but it's 'bizarre'

Good point tho

[ensho]

25. thanks for the correction

nt

[Bragi]

20. It's hard to find people like that

While it is difficult to find sociopaths who are naturally devoid of empathy and conscience, it not that difficult over time to train ordinary people to become that way.

[ensho]

26. interesting insight, thanks

nt

[Javaman]

34. That's why the military wants them young.

easier to mold their minds and behaviors.

Just the facts.

[RC]

14. Your nephew is basically shooting and bombing people who cannot defend themselves,

from the safety of a room 10's of thousands of miles away, on a military base in Nevada, Californian, Florida, wherever. Until he is in danger of real bullets going through the room he is in because they can shoot back in response, he is a paid killer, nothing more.
With each person he kills, he makes more targets. Our self perpetuating wars have to stop.

[Romulox]

16. It's the President and Generals who tells him who to kill.

What about them? :hi:

[Taverner]

17. I wouldn't say it's cowardly per se, but it's definitely not heroic

Not one iota of heroism in, what is at its core, a video game

[Throd]

22. That's what the people with swords said when the other side showed up with guns.

By your logic the military shouldn't have snipers.

[JoePhilly]

63. Ding ding ding .... no more calls, we have a winner!!!

Every army in the history of the world has tried to find an advantage.

And one of the best advantages to have is DISTANCE.

If I can kill you from 100 feet, and you can only kill me from 2 feet, the odds are in my favor.

If I can shoot an arrow and kill you, I win. Unless you have a gun. Or a tank.

"No bastard ever won a war by dying for his country. He won it by making the other poor dumb bastard die for his country."
General George Patton

[Bonobo]

91. Do you believe "courage" exists?

IF so, then "cowardice" exists as well.

If you deny that, you deny the existence of courage.

You cannot have it both ways.

[Hugabear]

74. Apples and oranges

At least in your scenario, the people with the guns can actually see the people they're killing in person. And the people with guns could still be killed themselves. It might be a one-sided battle, but there's still a chance that any individual soldier could be killed.

Not so much the cubicle warrior, watching his targets through a view screen from tens of thousands of miles away. Pull the trigger, drone drops its payload and then speeds away; he never has to personally witness the grisly aftermath of his actions. There's absolutely no danger whatsoever of the targets killing the cubicle warrior.

Even pilots dropping bombs on villages stand a chance of being shot down.

[Posteritatis]

87. It's war, not a medieval joust. (nt)

[Arctic Dave]

23. He is cowardly in the same way a person who targets

a bus with a timed bomb.

People die in both instances and the agressor walks away.

Cowardly to the bone.

[Javaman]

24. Okay, so...

while he bombs someone from 10,000 miles away, how is that different than someone in a bomber dropping bombs from 10, 20 or 30,000 feet?

Or an artillery piece firing ordinance from 10 miles away

or a battle ship firing ordinance from 30 miles away?

is it a distant thing? is it a sweat and blood sort of thing? it is him not experiencing the full on stress of battle? (even though the examples I give aren't in the battle).

So is it because technology has now taken over the inter personalization of war?

I don't know about you, but death from a distance has always been a staple of battle. Especially modern warfare.

But if you want to get right down to it, does this mean that those in the middle ages who used long bows and shot arrows en masse a mile or so away also cowards?

:shrug:

[WatsonT]

28. I'm sure the older generations said the same thing

"you don't stand there while they shoot at you, instead you hide in foxholes? Cowards"

"You throw lead at them from 40 paces instead of walking up and hitting them with a sharp piece of metal? Cowards"

[LoZoccolo]

31. Cool story, bro. n/t

[AngryAmish]

33. The idea of war is to make the other poor bastard die for his country.

That is a quote from the movie Patton.

War is not fair. War is for winning.

[BOG PERSON]

52. that might be the idea behind conventional/total war

but assymetrical war is different and hence has different objectives that are mainly political, i.e. "winning hearts + minds"

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

56. Poor bastards killing other poor bastards for the rich are what war is all about.

[felix_numinous]

35. Reminds me of the Star Trek episode about computer wars

'The Taste of Armageddon'

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CbmcVn5eHXU

[zalinda]

94. Yeah, I immediately thought of that too. n/t

[Desertrose]

36. More fun than a videogame cause these are "real bullets"!

Wow. We are a disconnected messed up bunch of people.

[raouldukelives]

38. I hear they make a good living

Personally my faith excludes me from killing for money but if you have no qualms about it why not do it from comfort and safety. Not to mention all the people put to work building & arming them and the profits they pass on to 401k's. Every kill probably adds a dollar to stock holdings helping people to retire in comfort someday.

[Nye Bevan]

39. Your nephew is no more of a coward than a cop who wears a bullet-proof vest (nt)

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

58. Huh? Not even close. -nt

[OwnedByFerrets]

85. OMG, what a fail

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

40. Will he get a Purple Heart if he sprains a finger or spills coffee on himself?

"He who joyfully marches to music in rank and file has already earned my contempt. He has been given a large brain by mistake, since for him the spinal cord would fully suffice. This disgrace to civilization should be done away with at once. Heroism at command, senseless brutality, deplorable love-of-country stance, how violently I hate all this, how despicable and ignoble war is; I would rather be torn to shreds than be a part of so base an action! It is my conviction that killing under the cloak of war is nothing but an act of murder." Albert Einstein

[moondust]

41. Did he get his "training" on video games?

[Wait Wut]

47. Did you tell your nephew that he's a coward?

Because, if not, you are the true coward for not giving him the chance to defend himself. To expose him to "virtual friends" on an online forum as a coward speaks volumes of your courage.

Please tell your nephew that I don't think he's a coward. He could have become an "activist" hacker. THAT is cowardice.

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

59. I somehow fail to see where the OP identified the person. -nt

[Wait Wut]

60. ...

“I have a nephew I get to talk to from time to time....My nephew has the most cowardly job on earth.”

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

61. So I guess you would have no problem finding out his full name and rank?

Who are you, Sherlock Holmes?

[Wait Wut]

66. Are you serious?

That's the beef you have with my comment?

He's talking about his NEPHEW. He called his NEPHEW a coward without giving him the chance to defend himself. I don't see anything in the post about a conversation about his nephew's alleged cowardice, which makes me think the author didn't actually have the courage to call his nephew a coward to his face. But, he's more than willing to use his own nephew as an example of whatever agenda he's trying to push.

I have a nephew. I would never trash talk him on the internet, to strangers or otherwise. Not even anonymously. The young man is a fantastic baseball player and is busting his ass to get through college. He may not be Rambo, but I would never disrespect him by calling him a coward. He's my nephew and I would give him the opportunity to defend his position before I would make such a claim.

How do you think this anonymous nephew would feel if he read this post? How do you think the sibling of the author (parent of the nephew) would feel? Do you think they would see the OP as courageous or cowardly?

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

77. You know what I think?

I suspect that, during the conversation the OP narrated, he looked at the nephew in a way that makes it awfully clear what he thinks of this job.

I also suspect the chances of the nephew's finding out about this thread are slim to none.

And I also think the assessment in the OP is correct.

[Dawgs]

81. I think you forgot the sarcastic tag.

If not, I feel sorry for you.

[neverforget]

48. I think drones make war easier

because there is no blood on the line on our part.

I don't think you're nephew is a coward because he's just doing his job.

[Union Scribe]

82. That's the problem. We shouldn't see war as easy.

It legitimizes war and makes it more palatable to the public, and in that way the MIC continues on its merry way eating up our yearly budget and carrying on a dozen conflicts that do nothing to keep us safer and cost innocent people on the receiving end their lives. That is a long-ass sentence but it's as compact as I can convey the creeping horror of detached warfare.

[Dawson Leery]

55. Drone operators are COWARDS.

No offense to you, but your nephew is a lowly coward who has done nothing to improve our world.

Drone operators are not putting themselves in harms way by ANY means.

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

57. I hereby declare that your assessment is correct. -nt

Let's see if RW troll Cid_B shows up.

[A Simple Game]

69. Your nephew actually implied the possibility that he could be injured during combat?

How? Carpal tunnel?

Death from thousands of miles away, the complete dehumanization of the enemy.

Wouldn't the world be much safer from the chicken hawks if people had to look their enemy in the eye before they could kill them?

But my real concern has not been addressed yet. We are using drones in four countries that we aren't even at war with. Somalia, Pakistan, Libya, and Yemen are now targets for our drones. We have not declared war on any of these countries. Weekly if not daily we read of accidents where civilians were injured or killed by drone attacks.

Every argument in this thread for using drones compares their use to an weapons in an actual declared war which assumes the other side is at least expecting an attack if not prepared for it.

When the payback comes, and it will, we will be very sorry.

[cemaphonic]

70. War is an instrument of foreign policy, not a dick waving contest.

And the bullets are certainly real enough to those on the receiving end.

[Hugabear]

72. So basically, he gets to play a video game, only difference is real people get killed

Am I wrong here?

[Shagbark Hickory]

75. I think there is some merit in the drones if they save money and if they don't hit the wrong targets

I don't know if they do or don't to either of these. One thing that doesn't come to mind is whether the operator is a coward. It's just another tool to get the job done. If it means sending over fewer troops to get blown up by roadside bombs then it's worth looking into .

[Incitatus]

78. If when the push the button to drop the bomb, there is doubt if the target

is guilty, I would have to call it cowardly. I don't care if they are following orders or not.

[Shagbark Hickory]

83. But that can happen if they're in the bomber plane directly. nm

[Incitatus]

88. true

Killing someone you think could be innocent is cowardly no matter what the risk to you.

Drones save money and lives and if one happens to go down in Pakistan there wouldn't be the problems of pilots being captured who were bombing their country. If that happened some people might think we were are war with them too.

[Zookeeper]

89. Eventually, our enemies will have the means to use drones....

against us.

[Initech]

79. War is just a video game now. Sad.

[Dawgs]

80. I thought this was a post about Harry Reid. ;) n/t

[OwnedByFerrets]

84. As Roger Waters said "The bravery of being out of range"

I LOVE your post and applaud YOUR courage for saying it.

[Bonobo]

93. +1 for Roger Waters reference. nt

[Odin2005]

86. unrec for calling your nephew a coward.

[roomfullofmirrors]

92. was war ever an honorable endeavor?

Be glad your nephew isn't crawling around in the mud and charging at the enemy with his bayonet fixed to the end of his rifle and thank your President for keeping him gainfully employed.

[citizen snips]

95. You can say the same thing about the Taliban.

How is that any different then setting up a roadside bomb and detonating it from a far distance with very little chance of getting hurt? Or strapping bombs to children so they kill innocent people.