It's become increasing clear to me that what we are seeing is just Disaster Capitalism...

[tex-wyo-dem]

as described by Naomi Klein in her book http://www.naomiklein.org/shock-doctrine">The Shock Doctrine.

The Rethugs and conservative/third way dems are creating a false crisis to try to convince the people that the debt is at crisis level and massive austerity programs are needed.

If the debt was truly at the crisis level they are trying to push, then they would not be refusing to increase taxes on the wealthy or cutting defense. Their scare tactics ring completely hollow.

This is only an excuse to capture and destroy their Holy Grail...the New Deal programs.

The hidden secret is that social security, one of the main programs they are talking about cutting, DOES NOT contribute to the deficit, period...but, of course, no one mentions this.

It's all smoke and mirrors...not to mention, total bullshit!

[RegieRocker]

1. Ayep

[kenny blankenship]

2. Double Yep.

Totally made up crisis in this case. Not imposed from without by any force whatsoever. Utterly fictitious - unlike the collapse of lending and the rise and persistence of high unemployment, which will not be fixed by gutting social programs.

Textbook Disaster Capitalism - only MORE so.

[RagAss]

3. It's a fascist takeover. And if it remains unrecognized by the majority of the country...

then we will all be marched through the front gate of Hell.

[Sarah Ibarruri]

4. Yes. And instead of appealing to the people, using his ultimate podium, Obama does not

He remains silent, hidden, being nice to the enemy.

[tex-wyo-dem]

9. One wonders why...

has he been threatened, or does he feel the power structure of the oligarchy is just too powerful? Is he just trying to protect his political future by coddling the PTB and doing their bidding? Or is he just one of them and has been all along?

one wonders....

[Sarah Ibarruri]

11. I swear it, I do not know. It's making me crazy not to know what happened. nt

[Jim Warren]

10. In the true con text of this thread

he has become indistinguishable from the enemy, IE: Summers, Geitner, Bernanke et al.

[Sarah Ibarruri]

13. I don't get it, why he's doing this, quietly, without a complaint. nt

[Jim Warren]

15. I see two possibilities:

Either he is with them all along and the deal is cut

or the situation we are about to undergo as a nation is far, far worse than any of us can imagine.

[Sarah Ibarruri]

30. If the situation is that dismal, we need to cut elsewhere - there are plenty of places to cut nt

[tex-wyo-dem]

16. I swear, I don't know either...

it's truly perplexing....:(

[Sarah Ibarruri]

31. It is, and it's shocking nt

[Enthusiast]

38. Why do you suppose that is?

Is Obama that weak or naive? I think it would be foolhardy to come to that conclusion.

[tex-wyo-dem]

5. As much as fascism seems to be a loaded word...

there really is no other way to describe what we are seeing now...

"Fascism should more properly be called corporatism because it is the merger of state and corporate power." -- Benito Mussolini

[jwirr]

49. Absolutely. Disaster capitalism is just the means to create corporatism.

I to wonder why President Obama is quiet but if you look at some of the countries where the University of Chicago had its way their leaders were not just threatened. They were assassinated. These corporatist will stop at nothing to get what they want - total control.

[Autumn]

6. Yes it is. We have been

betrayed by the very Democrats we voted for.

[TBMASE]

7. I read this and wonder why we shrieked about Budget Deficits

and the trillions of debt run up under the Bush regime if it was no big deal.

If the surpluses of the clinton administration were the standard why are we allowing Obama to continue the Bush policies of spending more than we have?
And don't give me the crap about the wars that Obama has failed to end or the Bush tax cuts that Obama said were needed just 7 months ago.

[tex-wyo-dem]

14. The difference is that....

junior was spending our treasure on illegal wars of aggression while cutting taxes on the wealthy at the same time...insanity that was never done in the past (taxes have always been raised during wartime).

War, historically, gives very little to no return on investment...it's basically throwing money down a toilet with the added catastrophe of millions of dead and wounded people.

Education, Social Security, Medicare, environmental protection, infrastructure, etc. etc. etc. are all high-return-on-investment programs that help people and pay themselves back to the country and society over and over and over again.

[TBMASE]

17. I don't recall those wars or tax cuts ending in the last 2.5 years

perhaps I missed something in the news. In addition, I believe we launched a NEW war of aggression against Libya adding to catastrophe and the number of dead and wounded.
There was a stimulus bill passed that was supposed to help restore the infrastructure and create jobs.

I don't know, maybe it's just me but I don't subscribe to the nonsense of excuses for people who continue failed policies while having a super majority for 2 years in the senate, the presidency and the house and can't submit a budget or get the things done that were promised.
I'll support Obama, but I'm tired of the excuses being made for his conitunuance of the Bush policies

[tex-wyo-dem]

18. bingo...now you know why so many DUers are pissed...

We thought Obama and a dem majority would be the answer to ending these disastrous policies. Not only were we wrong about that but got an extra war and talk of cuts to vital social programs on top of it :mad:

[TBMASE]

20. Then why only blame one group or party?

Obviously the progressive base is being ignored by those we brought into power to change things. What is the answer, beyond just screaming about the pubes and the fundicons?

[tex-wyo-dem]

26. Well, I think because the pubes and fundicons are...

The worst of the worst and they are low hanging fruit. But they are pushing the national conversation ever further right...THAT they have been very successful. It wasn't that long ago that these people were considered nutjobs that should be ignored...not anymore.

But the ones who are doing the most damage are the bluedogs and third-wayer DLCers who are actively undercutting Democratic values from within.

[Enthusiast]

40. The rantings of the pubes and fundicons

are serving as a massive distraction, a smoke screen, while the damage is being done right before our eyes by corporatists with a D next to their name.

How many times have you heard TV Republicans complain that, "Obama is spending us into oblivion!"?

Have you ever heard Obama refute these lies? Have you ever heard him say, "Nearly the entire deficit was caused by massive tax cuts for the wealthy and two wars of choice." ?

These lies serve a twofold purpose.

[jwirr]

51. Super majority? In your mind.

[rhett o rick]

44. The difference in what? As long as you think the Democratic power in Washington the DC

the longer we will suffer. There are two sides in this fight AND THEY AINT DEMOCRATS VS. REPUBLICANS.

[Warren Stupidity]

8. Following the script she laid out to the letter. nt

[arcane1]

12. Ding Ding!!! We have a winner!

:thumbsup:

This debt ceiling crisis is the most recent in a line of them: the "too big to fail" financial crisis, "9/11 changed everything", etc...

And of course, they used the debt threat at the state level in several states, to accomplish the same thing.

[alcibiades_mystery]

19. There is no other kind of capitalism

Capitalism is always social catastrophe.

[blindpig]

21. It's just Capitalism.

There is no good kind.

[socialist_n_TN]

33. What these two guys said

Capitalism is capitalism. The shock doctrine part is just the excuse.

[jwirr]

52. Shock doctrine is just the excuse but it is also the means to the end.

When we call this corporatism do you see that as capitalism?

[socialist_n_TN]

54. Personally, I think that "corporatism" is just a

chickenshit way of saying capitalism, so yes, I guess I do see that as capitalism. People who are afraid of sounding too "Communist" will use corporatism, rather than capitalism.

But I might as well go ahead a put this out here now. I don't see true small businesses as something that should be nationalized either. Taxed and regulated for public and worker's safety? Yes definitely, but not nationalized. That's always what people think of when someone mentions Marxism. They go IMMEDIATELY to the Mom and Pop grocery store as being under state control. RWers ESPECIALLY do this. IMO, a socialist national government would be too busy nationalizing "general welfare" businesses and interstate concerns that weren't under DIRECT worker control, to mess with a 20k a year owner/operator.

I also would leave elements of the market in place, just taxed and regulated. Once the nationalized industries took care of everybody on a "general welfare" basis, then if somebody wanted to sell beads, go for it. Just pay your taxes and don't make the beads toxic to the public.

As an example, the government offers a generic product, at cost, to the public. Say a can of peas. Government Peas store sells a safe and cheap product at cost, so everybody's fed. If a local entrepeneur wanted to offer the same product with a slightly different flavor, go for it.

[jwirr]

57. Thank you. That makes sense. I was seriously asking you. It was not

a snark. Now that I think about it corporatism (fascism) is private ownership so it is capitalism. I like the look of what you are suggesting. All I know is that we need to stop the capitalist corporations from taking over - i.e. as they tried to do in Nazi Germany. If everything crashes it is going to be a struggle for us to keep that from happening.

[socialist_n_TN]

62. You're welcome..........

Sometimes it is hard to tell snark from honest questions on a written forum like this, but I always try to err on the side of "honest questions".

One of the biggest bugaboos about Marxism as it has been propagandized is the difference between personal and "private" property. Your house would be an example of personal property. The business you own that's a worldwide corporation and is the means of production would be considered private property and subject to state control or nationalization.

Now remember too, that a lot of this is just MY personal idea of what should happen. Other socialists/communists might have a different idea. But one thing I think that we ALL (Marxists and fellow travelers both) could agree on is that what we have isn't working for the largest majority of us and it needs to change and change drastically.

[jwirr]

68. Agreed.

[The Big Vetolski]

47. Love your sig pic. nt

[Odin2005]

22. That book is prophetic.

[tex-wyo-dem]

29. yep...prophetic indeed...

I pulled my copy off the shelf thje other day and read a few key chapters. This tactic is being used on us all the time, but few recognize it through the propoganda.

[jwirr]

53. Even if people knew this was happening in other countries I doubt

that many thought they would turn this back on the USA. They have set the table with disaster while we thought they were just following old ron raygun. It never dawned on most of us that they were out to destroy our lifestyle and our nation just as they did all those other countries.

[Mimosa]

23. YES.

And it hurts, doesn't it?

[Zax2me]

24. Oh, bullshit

Everyone wallows in the fruits of capitalism then bitch when things don't end up well.
Capitalism works fine for us until we try to do right and work for the world people.
Unemployment?
That is what happens when a progressive President corrects a capitalist system that has benefited us for decades while screwing the poor and unfortunate around the world.
It's time to pay up.
The days of low unemployment are over.
We have to pay up.
This means you and I.
lose the mega cable channels, the plush jobs with benefits.
But don't you bitch.
You want world equality.
this is it.
Suck it up.
There are worse off, believe me.

[The Big Vetolski]

46. Don't accuse me of wallowing in the fruits of capitalism. I have never

had mega cable channels or a plush job with benefits. Neither have millions of Americans. And you dare accuse us of whining when what little we do have is to be sacrificed so the rich and the corporations don't have to? Our sacrifice is not necessary.

Raise taxes on the rich. Impose a tax on ALL stock transactions, like the British have. Slash the defense budget by 50% and bring the troops home. Eliminate the cap on social security and Medicare taxes. Reinstate the estate tax. Reinstate Glass-Steagall. End corporate personhood and eliminate the corporate veil. Hold the people who make the decisions that harm the general welfare accountable for their actions by charging them with what is their true crime: treason. And if some of the rich don't like it, they can get the hell out of my country. We'll manage quite nicely without them.

And, if our government actually did all of the things in my laundry list, you'd find that the majority of the rich really wouldn't have much of a problem with any of it. They'd still live just fine, thank you very much, and they know it.

Because most of us do not have an insatiable lust for more and more profit. Most of us just want to live comfortably.

[socialist_n_TN]

55. That's a nice centrist list of improvements there, vet

I like every one of them because they would improve the life of the working class of which I am a member. Unfortunately, they won't happen. In fact, those things are what the capitalists are actually taking away from the rest of us right now. It would take a revolution to gain even those minimal items.

So if it's going to take a revolution to get the MINIMUM, well, that's a lot of effort to allow them to tear it down AGAIN in a few decades. What's more, this kind of shit ain't something that the capitalists have just now thought of. This is actually the THIRD time that I can remember WITHOUT research, that the capitalists have run amok. Regulation has been tried TWICE before and they ALWAYS succeed in throwing off the regulatory chains.

No, capitalism has had it's time. Smash the system and try something else. So our grandchildren won't have to do it again.

[The Big Vetolski]

56. Uh-oh! You used the "R" word! You'll upset the latte' liberals.

But the Dude agrees with you. In the immortal words of Benjamin Franklin Pierce on M*A*S*H:

"We want something else! We want something else!"

[socialist_n_TN]

63. LOL! The picture of Hawkeye dancing around

in the mess tent with that tray brought a :rofl: out of me.

And the latte liberals are going to have to pick a side. Soon. They SHOULD have realized that they should ALREADY have picked a side. It's WAY past the point of reform.

Remember what SDS said:
The fascists will shoot you.
Conservatives will cheer the fascists on.
Moderates will watch your execution on TV.
And liberals will cry over your grave...in the dark when nobody's looking.

In times of sharpened class struggle, until they pick a side, they're pretty well useless.

[inna]

59. what's bullshit is your insulting to fucking intelligence post.

it's so obviously bullshit it's actually (mildly, very mildly!) entertaining.

[inna]

25. what's scary is that they are not even trying to hide this; it's like we are being openly

robbed, in the bright daylight, with everyone watching the grand heist.

they don't even pretend to CARE anymore what the majority of people want or think.


dictatorship of capital, pure and simple, not even camouflaged anymore at this point. (why bother? :shrug: remember what Frank Zappa said?...)

[EFerrari]

28. Agreed. n/t

[socialist_n_TN]

34. +1. The pretense has ALL gone.........

Hell, Papandreaou actually said it outright.

[StarburstClock]

27. Has been since the 1980s

Now read a few books on the history of propaganda and you'll completely understand how we got to be such a gullible people.

[blkmusclmachine]

32. The "New Dem's" loathe the New Deal:

They want to steal all our money for themselves. Deficit reduction my ass.

[spinbaby]

35. It's clear they want to default

Republicans want a crisis and they want to blame Obama.

[grahamhgreen]

36. And Obama wants to pretend he was forced to destroy SS, rather than ending his killing spree in the

Iraqistanya.

[lovuian]

39. Yes they which to take all the Americans money

and make the country like the third world

Capitalism is a FAILED system especially promotes corruption in the government

[_ed_]

41. I think you're wrong

Wall Street will NEVER allow the US to default -- it would kill their profit margins.

They've already issued orders to the Rs and Ds. What we're seeing is a grande charade.

[socialist_n_TN]

65. That's what I think and have said numerous times

It's Kabuki Theater.

Wall Street wants the debt ceiling raised, so it will be raised. Now they also want to get their greedy hands (one way or another) on the social programs, ESPECIALLY that social security money that's taken out of everybody's check. So they'll back the bluff as long as they can, but in the end, their toadies in Congress will raise the debt ceiling. Even if nothing else is done about "entitlements".

[Enthusiast]

37. It is increasingly clear to me too.

[lutherj]

42. Republicans created the debt so they would have the excuse to end the New Deal.

They hated Clinton because he balanced the budget and started to pay off the debt. He showed the country that government works. Clinton set us on the path to have the debt paid off by 2014. GWB reversed that his first year in office. He dragged the economy by the horns out into the rose garden and put a bullet through its head. Republicans want debt.

[loveandlight]

43. yes, social security is in the crosshairs

So they have to make it look like there is really a reason it has to be done. When in truth, they just want to wreck all the New Deal programs. There are serious economic problems in this country, but it isn't at all about social security. It is about the rich grabbing more and more and leaving the rest of us to grovel for pennies. It is the downfall of empire in the end, but they are going to grab everything they can before it all comes tumbling down.

[rhett o rick]

45. Every nickel that the middle class is the target. nm

[MannyGoldstein]

48. Yep. nt

[rucky]

50. The entire G-8 is engaging in it. n/t

[roomfullofmirrors]

58. I disagree. US debt is 92% of GDP and projected to exceed 100% soon.

we are observing what happens when debt exceeds GDP in europe. The crisis is not false. imo.

[girl gone mad]

61. The European nations which are suffering do not have a sovereign currency.

We have a sovereign currency. Japan, a sovereign currency regime, has debt to GDP which far exceeds our own, yet rates on Japanese debt remain very low (and before you retort with the oh-so-predictable "hyperinflation" boogeyman, Japan has been battling deflation, not inflation, for two decades now).

There is no crisis here.

[roomfullofmirrors]

67. You're fooling yourself into believing that debt/GDP doesn't matter. That's simply wrong.

Japan's economy has been wrecked by debt and should serve as a warning to all about the dangers of excessive debt, not as an excuse to create more debt. Excessive debt, coupled with, what is obviously going to be a sustained period of high unemployment, asset deflation, trade deficits, and commodity inflation, leaves no doubt that we are headed straight into dangerous waters and; to make it worse, we are unable to change course. just like Japan.

[Taitertots]

60. Disaster politics isn't limited to Capitalism

It is without question a fake problem created to push a orchestrated "solution" onto the American people. That isn't because we have Capitalism, it is because we have a corrupt political class that is run by millionaires for billionaires.

[socialist_n_TN]

66. "....it is because we have a corrupt political class that

is run by millionaires for billionaires." That sounds like capitalism to me. Don't forget what Papandreaou the Greek PM said about it. Capitalism is stronger than democracy. You can't put it more blatantly than that.

[sad sally]

64. Nor is there any serious talk about the BIG contributor to the debt

the daily growing of the military industrial complex.

"In the midst of a serious discussion about our nation's debt crisis, House Republicans demonstrated responsible leadership that sets priorities and does not jeopardize our national security interests and our nation's ongoing military efforts," Rep. Tom Price, R-Ga., chairman of the House Republican Policy Committee, said in a statement.

But Rep. Barney Frank, D-Mass, scoffed at the suggestion that "everything is on the table" in budget negotiations between the Obama administration and congressional leaders. "The military budget is not on the table," he said. "The military is at the table, and it is eating everybody else's lunch."

[grahamhgreen]

70. +1

[woo me with science]

69. K&R nt