If a married drunk man has sex with a sober person other than his spouse,

[ZombieHorde]

Poll question: If a married drunk man has sex with a sober person other than his spouse,

would he be an adulterer or a victim of rape?

Let's say this is his first time having sex outside of marriage. Additionally, if he was sober, he would have had the willpower to keep his marital vows. He is too drunk to drive, but he can still walk.

The chose to drink, and he was not drugged.

This poll is not about the law, this poll is about your opinion.

I asked my wife if she would consider me a adulterer or a rape victim if I had drunk sex with someone other than her, she said I would be cheating.

This poll was inspired by some of the responses I received in the following thread...http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=439x118

I was going to include the option, "Rape victims are adulterers," but the option seemed crass, and I did not want anyone to pick it as a joke.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

1. i find the drunken consent issue to be very complex

for instance if 2 people were drunk, were they both raped?

i think in order to prove rape, one atleast has to establish that there was some intent in getting someone so drunk that they couldnt consent. you know?

or find someone completely unable to give consent and rape them (like someone passed out)

but i dont think bad judgment making equals rape

[Warren DeMontague]

2. I think if we're going to call every act of drunken sex "rape", there's a ridiculous amt. of rape

going on.

Jesus, most of the sex I and everyone I knew in our 20s had probably qualified. There you go.

I think if someone is so drunk they are incapable of giving consent, that's a different story.

But people get drunk and screw all the time. It's one of the reasons people get drunk in the first place.

[lumberjack_jeff]

9. Short of an IV and restraints...

how does one person get another drunk?

Our attitudes about consent are shot through with archaic views of the relative capacity of women for self determination, and expectations of men to live with their mistakes.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

20. slipping something in their drink. giving someone larger amts of alcohol

in their drink than they asked for. there are ways to get someone more drunk then they otherwise would be

[lumberjack_jeff]

23. Implicit in the OP is the assumption that he wasn't involuntarily drugged. n/t

[ZombieHorde]

25. I changed my OP to make this more clear. nt

[Kennah]

3. If he is a victim of rape ...

... then a person who drinks then drives and kills someone isn't guilty of vehicular homicide.

[Bucky]

4. Sigh. Another thinly veiled attack on George Soros?

:rofl:

[Donald Ian Rankin]

5. Depends on how drunk. N.T.

[ZombieHorde]

6. Too drunk to drive, but he can walk. nt

[Donald Ian Rankin]

12. Is his head clear enough to give informed consent?

If so, it may well be adultery; if not, it's essentially rape.

[lumberjack_jeff]

18. How is his partner to know that his consent is informed?

Is she supposed to know that he'd never consent to sex with her if he was in his right mind?

[Donald Ian Rankin]

24. If in doubt, assume not, of course.

[ZombieHorde]

19. There is the gray area. Can a drunk person give consent?

Many people in the linked thread in this poll seem to think drunk people can not give consent. The issue is not an easy one.

[uppityperson]

74. There is a difference between consent and legal consent, wanting to clarify since that was part of

the trouble I got into on that other thread. People consent to all sorts of stuff all the time, but LEGALLY they are not able to if drunk. Hence beware if you are in that situation.

The issue is not an easy one indeed and there are shades of grey. However, it is best to be wary since, legally, you could be held liable for rape if you had sex with someone under the influence. This is not to say that every drunk person having sex should have a valid rape case, but it could happen.

[Countdown_3_2_1]

7. Adultery! Stop looking for loopholes.

No one forced you to drink. YOU chose to do so. You chose to be in a position that enabled casual sex.

Your wife is right. Drunkenness is NO excuse. No matter how you play at semantics, its still adultery.

You also chose to be married. That conveys responsibilities, and faithfulness.
Alcohol consumption does not make you the irresponsible single again. No matter how much you drink you are still married and still accountable to your wife.

[ZombieHorde]

11. I invite you to check out the thread linked in my OP.

Many there seem to insist drunk sex is rape. I am not looking for a loophole.

[PBS Poll-435]

8. Surprise!

Sex!

[MNBrewer]

10. It depends on the marital status and gender of the other partner

married female = adultery
unmarried female = fornication
male = sodomy (but not illegal anymore)

THis is the status under MN law, anyway.

[ZombieHorde]

14. I should have stated I was not referring to the law. I should probably edit my poll. nt

[Warren DeMontague]

13. My take is, there is the real world for 99.999% of us, and then there are isolated circles

that exist in the rarefied air of insular ivory tower establishments, like, say, the Womens Studies Department of certain nameless Massachusetts Liberal Arts Private Colleges.

Reality as it applies to the first group bears little resemblance to the edicts of the second.

[Hello_Kitty]

30. When I was raped at age 19 my having consumed alcohol was used to discredit me

And my assailant got off scot-free. I spent nearly 20 years between the military and a male dominated field listening to guys brag about getting women drunk so they could take advantage of them. So fuck right off with your 'rarefied ivory tower Women's Studies' horseshit.

[Warren DeMontague]

32. If you were raped, you were raped.

My point is that it's ridiculous to call every act of drunk sex "rape". It's an insult to actual rape victims.

[Hello_Kitty]

36. And my point is cut the disingenuous crap.

The police stations are not full of women who had consensual sex while drunk but who now regret it and are pressing rape charges on the advice of their Women's Studies mentors.

[Warren DeMontague]

38. I'm not going to get in a fight with you. I'm sorry- honestly- for your experiences.

You're essentially saying the same thing I am, which is, in the real world, people get drunk and have consensual sex all the time. It's not "rape".

[ZombieHorde]

41. No one in this thread is claiming police stations are full of women who have

had consensual sex while drunk and are now pressing charges because they regret the decision. People are claiming drunk people have the ability to consent to sex. Some people believe there is a difference between being raped while drunk, and consenting to sex while drunk.

[Odin2005]

63. +1,000,000,000,000,000,000

[LanternWaste]

15. ...he's an asshole.

"If a married drunk man has sex with a sober person other than his spouse..."


...he's an asshole.

[ZombieHorde]

22. What if an unmarried woman, who is just as drunk, has sex with a sober man, and then

regrets it in the mourning. Was she raped, or did she just make a poor choice?

I would think I had made a poor choice, but I am not everybody.

[LanternWaste]

44. I would think she's an asshole too.

I would think she's an asshole too.

As to if it's rape or not? I don't say either way as I have no axe to grind nor agenda to advertise... but I would imagine there are many laws which precisely define rape/not-rape in the relevant context. :shrug:

[ZombieHorde]

53. My agenda is logic and argumentation. I love it. nt

[Bucky]

31. Okay, but what if the sober person were Sigourney Weaver? Doesn't that change things?

<== totally worth the divorce

[LanternWaste]

45. An asshole with good taste is yet an asshole.

An asshole with good taste is yet an asshole. :shrug:

[NightWatcher]

16. Depends on if he was drunk voluntarily. Had he been slipped some GHB (roofie)...

Then he was in no state to engage in the act with the required intent

[ZombieHorde]

17. He drank the alcohol voluntarily. nt

[Cali_Democrat]

21. Oh man...I wish I could have rec'd the thread you linked to

You make some EXCELLENT points! :applause:

[lapislzi]

26. There's too much relativism in this thread.

A rape occurs when the sex is not consensual. If a person passes out and another person has sex with that person, it's rape. The passed-out person wasn't offered a choice.

If you're drunk and make a bad choice and wake up in the morning hating yourself, you haven't been raped. Done that.

If you're drunk and you realize halfway through that you really don't want to be having sex with this person and tell him/her to stop...and he/she doesn't stop, then it becomes a rape. If you're so drunk that you say, "fuck it," and let him/her finish even though you don't want to, it's not rape. Done that.

That being said, people who take advantage of drunk people are assholes. People who drug other people's drinks are assholes. People who don't understand that "no" means "no" are rapists.

Edited to add: drunkenness is not a mitigating circumstance for the commission of adultery. A person's marital status is not a factor in the determination of rape.

[TexasObserver]

27. According to some, he was raped.

I'm not among them. I think he committed adultery.


The sane approach is that people get drunk TO have sex, not that they have sex because they got drunk. There are many adults who use the "but I was drunk" excuse to explain away why they had sex with a particular person. Buyer's remorse happens as often with sex as with consumer purchases.

[negativenihil]

28. Had the gender been reversed...

i am confident the poll results would also be reversed.

sigh.

[Bucky]

29. Nice try, Mr. Draper.

Meta comment: Go buy your wife some flowers and maybe think about cutting back this holiday season.

[ZombieHorde]

34. Funny. nt

[Hello_Kitty]

33. Thanks so much for keeping us apprised of this widespread problem

As we speak, the police stations are flooded with people who had consensual sex while drunk now filing rape charges. Good to know that so many people on the internets are keeping a vigilant eye on the situation.

[ZombieHorde]

35. I am looking for faulty logic. How about you? Do you detect any faulty logic?

If so, I would love to read a clear description of it.

[Hello_Kitty]

46. You have hypotheticals. Here's a real situation:

When I was stationed in Japan in the Navy there was a guy in my unit named William. He came to work one Monday morning bragging of his exploits over the weekend. Saturday night he had gone the enlisted club and as he left the club he spotted a young Japanese woman who was stumbling and highly intoxicated.

So what did this prince among men do? Why he took her back to his room and had his way with her! He sat in the break room of our work space and bragged about it that Monday morning. He laughed as he recounted that she cried when she woke up and realized where she was and what had happened. I let him know in no uncertain terms what a disgusting piece of rapist shit he was. Several of the guys in the room agreed with me but others, mostly the young ones, weren't sure if it was really rape.

Rape victims are to this day routinely discredited if they have consumed any alcohol and alcohol continues to be the number one date rape drug. But some guys want to have bullshit rhetorical debates like this OP rather than examining a culture that condones rape.

[ZombieHorde]

52. I agree with you about the rape of the Japanese woman. She was raped.

I also agree people try to discredit rape victims, or downplay the horrors of rape. I am not trying to do that, but I can see your point of view in the context of our culture and your past experiences.

I do not agree rhetorical debates (Is there any other kind of debate?) are bullshit. I believe debates are extremely important.

If you have insight on cultures that condone rape, discuss them. If you make an OP about it, please include a link in this thread. I would love to read your opinions on this matter. I imagine some here on DU have great insight on this subject.

I know I have been annoying you these last few days, but I value your opinions and the experiences you chose to share with us.

[Lyric]

37. It depends on the circumstances.

How drunk was he? You say that he chose to drink--but did the woman he (eventually) slept with wait until his judgement was impaired and then start buying him stronger and stronger drinks that he wouldn't ordinarily order for himself? Was there any collusion--for example, did the women team up with some of her female friends to keep the guy distracted so that he wouldn't notice that his drinks were getting stronger and stronger? Were they at a bar or a private party? Was he fully aware that he was sleeping with a stranger and not his own wife? Did he walk to the car completely under his own power, or did the woman and her friends "help" him there? Did anyone lie to him and tell him that they were taking him home when they were actually taking him to their own apartment/a friend's place/a dark alley?

There's a big difference between a situation where one person is a little drunk but the other is sober, in which both still fully aware of where they are and who they're with, and in which they decide to have sex (even if it's a decision they might not have made sober)...which would NOT be rape...and two people, one of whom is ridiculously drunk while the other is sober, in which the sober one uses lies ("Don't worry, I'll take you home"), deceit (like buying stronger and stronger drinks without telling the person that you're doing it), and even the help of friends to manipulate an awake-but-almost-incoherently-drunk person into having sex.

BIG difference. If it's the first...yeah, he (or she) is an adulterer. If it's the second...he (or more commonly, SHE) was raped.

Intent and circumstances really do matter. If you're relatively sober and you KNOW that your erstwhile partner is (1) blotto drunk, (2) would NOT agree to have sex with you ordinarily, and (3) you're deliberately crafting a situation in which you can coerce sex from this person by using deceit, fraud, and manipulation...then you're a rapist.

[Taverner]

39. Quid pro quo - if he sees it as rape, then it is

we don't have two sets of laws in this country

[lumberjack_jeff]

42. Post facto? Does he have to see it as rape that night, or is the next morning okay? n/t

[Taverner]

47. What's the rule for women?

I assume there would have to be a "no" somewhere in there - but there have been rape cases where the woman was drunk, and it was proven as rape, even though she didn't say no.

[LostInAnomie]

40. One thing I've learned after many years on DU...

... is that if the words "man", "drunk", and "sex" are in a sentence, no matter in what order or the other accompanying words, it means someone was "raped".

Man has sex with drunk woman. RAPE!

Drunk man has sex with sober woman. He's a RAPIST!

Drunk man has sex with a drunk woman. Once again, he's a rapist!

Drunk man is pegged by a sober woman. Err... He's a rapist!!!

Drunk women have sex, man watches. RAPE!!!

The logic doesn't matter. All you need is the magic three words and it automatically means rape.

[Taverner]

48. Unfortunately, you are correct

And it is ALWAYS assumed the male is the aggressor

[Sen. Walter Sobchak]

70. Well I guess that is my word of the day...

http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=pegged

[laundry_queen]

43. I'm just thinking out loud here...

just finished a bit of contract law in school...and with a contract, here in Canada, a person can get out of a contract if he/she can prove that he was drunk, that everyone knew he/she was drunk, that the person they had the contract with knew or *ought* to have known they were drunk and that they repudiate the contract the minute they are sober. I wonder if that applies here. hmmm. points to ponder.

[Gormy Cuss]

49. I think if there's no claim of blackout or coercion, it's adultery.

Adults of both genders are responsible for their drunken behavior (unless they were involuntarily drugged.)

In your example, if the man said no or pushed away the person who wanted to have sex with him yet that person ignored those signals and forced the sex, the man was raped.

If on the other hand he was drunk but a willing a partner, then yes, it's adultery.

[mwooldri]

50. I have said "adulterer" but...

I could have picked "rape victim" too. Not enough information.

One can be too drunk to drive but still able to consent or otherwise to sexual relations. Only takes two pints of beer to be unfit to drive but still walk.

I picked "adulterer" over "rape victim" because the usual stereotype in society is that in a heterosexual relationship, it is the male partner that makes the first advance rather than the female.

It is very possible for a man to have had just a couple of drinks, make a drunken sexual advance on a woman, the woman consents because she's had just the same amount too, and... yep... it's adultery. However if the man has had more than just a couple of drinks, can "just about" walk (but not pass out), and a whole less drunk woman makes advances towards him and because he really is too drunk to properly consent - then yes that is rape.

[madmom]

51. I think it depends on how drunk they are. Having been married to an

alcoholic, I can attest to someone being legally drunk but still functional for the most part. But I would consider it adultery from either sex unless the drunk person was totally incapacitated and could not agree or not to have sex.

[guitar man]

54. what you would be

is in deep shit buster!! :silly:

[mmonk]

55. Would he have had sex if he wasn't drunk?

[ZombieHorde]

56. No. He would have resisted and kept his marital vows. nt

[mmonk]

57. Interesting argument.

In reality, I would suspect only those involved would know. For everyone else, an educated guess if there was no resistance or refusal.

[treestar]

58. Straight out of the soap operas

I would think that it is rape so long as the state's law allows for drunkenness to obviate consent. In which case, there is a lot of rape going on in the world.

[TheKentuckian]

59. I don't even understand where rape comes into the equation.

The sex was consensual and between adults. The booze is a non-factor and a fig leaf to defend shady behavior and push responsibility outside of one's self.

[ZombieHorde]

62. Some DUers explain the logic in the link in the OP.

Some people believe drunk people are unable to give consent. I feel the issue is complex.

[Township75]

60. The keyword is "man". If it were "woman", she would have been taken advantage of...

but it is a man who should be able to handle it.

[GliderGuider]

61. Neither

He is an ordinary human being.

IMO "adultery" is a concept much like "sin" - a construct invented to constrain otherwise unremarkable behavior. The concept of "adultery" was developed alongside "marriage" to enforce property ownership by means of behavior control.

Genetically and behaviorally we are very similar to bonobo chimps. Mating outside the pair bond is utterly unremarkable for either species. Of course it helps if both members of the pair share that point of view...

[Odin2005]

64. If the one takes advantage of another's drunkeness to fuck him/her it's rape.

If you have sex with somebody who is drunk who would would not have done it sober you are a rapist.

Is it provable in court? likely not, but it is still rape.

[Hello_Kitty]

67. Several years ago on New Year's Eve I went out with friends and got really drunk

I ended up "hooking up", or so I thought, with one of the guys in our group. He wasn't someone I found attractive though he'd made it sort of obvious he was into me. After it happened I didn't think too much of it because I figured we were both equally drunk. I even agreed to have dinner with him a few days later. It was then that I found out he hadn't been drunk at all! He told me he was pretty much a teetotaler and had only had one beer that night. :WTF: :puke:

This thread and your post just reminded me of the incident, which I didn't think of as rape until quite a while afterward. Probably has a lot to do with what happened to me when I was 19.

For me the main considerations are, as you say, is this someone who would fuck you when sober and also is one person considerably drunk-er than the other and is the more sober person deliberately taking advantage of them?

[lumberjack_jeff]

75. Whaa?

*third draft*

I think most juries would doubt that "hooking up" with someone less drunk than you constitutes rape on their part.

Retrospective withdrawal of consent is a really problematic legal concept.

[Hello_Kitty]

76. Maybe I didn't convey the creepiness of the situation well enough

Jeff, I was so drunk I had blacked out. I don't remember what happened. When I came to I assumed it was a hook up between two drunken people. And then I learned he was sober the whole time.

As for the legalities, I never pursued charges and the statute of limitations has long since run out.

[lumberjack_jeff]

77. Thanks, that helps clarify. n/t

[Matariki]

65. This is an interesting question.

Especially considering how many would say a drunk woman can't give consent - and that counts if the man is also drunk. So the question of course is why is it one way?

[DirkGently]

66. Unconscious is rape. Tipsy is self-impaired judgment.

Edit: I just now notice the unexpected vehemence of arguments in this thread.

My response was to the question as-framed. A drunken man or a drunken woman may consent to sex he or she otherwise wouldn't when his or her judgment is self-impaired, but the age-old practice of men seeking out drunken women, or plying women with alcohol, in order to rape them, or to do something which, because of a man's usual inherent superior size / strength and the phyisological facts of male and female anatomy, blurs the line between consent and rape, is a different issue.

A man cannot (in most cases -- I read something bizarre about a coma patient once) lie somewhere, inert and mostly unaware, and have sex "done" to him by a woman, without his understanding what is going on, or despite his chemically-weakened protestations. Generally speaking, a man's active participation is required for male-female sex. The reverse is not true.

To the extent anyone is suggesting a drunken woman cannot be considered to have been raped, or that there are not circumstances that men are well aware of and sometimes actively pursue, that blur the line between drunken sex and rape of a woman, those people are wrong. There are social, physical, and physiological differences between men and women, and the fact is that men are more capable and more willing of "forcing the issue" of sex with a woman who is impaired than vice-versa. This fact is the basis upon which fraternity parties are founded, in my opinion.

[Glassunion]

68. I voted Cheater... Booze: helping me get laid since 1989.

[Xicano]

69. You would be an adulterer

and any consenting adult having sex with another consenting adult regardless of them being drunk or not is not rape. If the law does not excuse you from be held responsible for criminal acts because you were "dunk" at the time, then, the law sets the standard you are responsible for your actions regardless of being drunk. If you're passed-out drunk, then, different story. You can't give consent when you are passed-out.

Smoke pot instead. :smoke:

[CTyankee]

71. Forget it, Charley, as the New York saying goes...nt

[MrSlayer]

72. I never buy the "I was drunk" excuse from guys.

If you are sober enough to function sexually then you are sober enough to know what you are doing. In this case you would be an adulterer.

[ZombieHorde]

73. Not all sex requires "function." nt